Trending Topics:

Debunking 18 claims justifying this week’s Gaza massacre

Israel/Palestine
on 108 Comments

After spending a great deal of time online, I read and watched endless virtual conversations about who’s at fault and who’s not in the wake of the over 60 casualties in Gaza on Monday. Discussions varied from whether Israel is exercising a righteous act of self-defense, or if Palestinians are legitimately organizing a peaceful protest; whether it is a conflict between two equals who are both guilty, or it is between an army of a state and an occupied territory packed with civilians?

It’s mind-blowing how people have the energy to keep repeating the same claims over and over again for days and weeks, ignoring outside information. That is why I have decided to spare others the time, effort, and emotion, by writing out the most common claims I have seen regarding the events of the Great March of Return, followed by my responses. Those interested in fact-checking these common falsehoods, can find them in one place.

The one claim that I will not deal with, one of the most popular, is that of: “The Bible say God give the land of Israel to the Jewish people?” Fundamentalists, regardless of faith, will never see beyond their own holy books. This list isn’t for them and I won’t bother trying to change their minds.

Claim 1: Israel acted with “restraint” towards protesters in Gaza. 

Speaking at the United Nations on Tuesday, U.S. Ambassador to the UN Nikki Haley said, “[W]ho among us would accept this type of activity on your border? No one would. No country in this chamber would act with more restraint than Israel has.”

Even harder it was to listen to an Israeli official saying how “We have Israeli civilian communities, farms, and homesteads just 100 meters away from the border. If we’re allowing that borderer to be porous we’ll have dead Israelis.”

First thing I can think of is, what border? Israel is the only country in the world with no defined borders, as they keep expanding into others’ land. The line between Gaza and Israel is an armistice line from 1949 and 1967, not an internationally recognized border.

Second, Palestinians are not crossing the armistice line and killing Israelis living right across the fence once they are “unleashed.” They are not animals, neither are they cannibals! Palestinians are the not encaged blood-thirsty animals that will prey the first thing they witness once they are out. Yes, they are trying to cross the fence into 1948 areas, but this is about realizing their right of return to the land many of them were forced to leave. Seventy percent of Palestinians in Gaza are refugees from cities and towns in Israel. These people are trying to go home. They are trying to get to the houses they still have keys and official documents for! They are not embarking on a secret murderous mission.

Claim 2: Jerusalem has been the capital of the Jewish people for 3,000 years ago. Moving the embassy is just a recognition of that reality.

At the opening of the U.S. embassy in Jerusalem Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said, “In Jerusalem, King David established our capital 3,000 years ago.” Several members of the Trump administration have stated in recent weeks that Jerusalem is already the capital of Israel and moving the embassy is a “recognition of reality.”

King David is described in the Bible as the second king to preside over the United Monarchy, a unified territory of all Jewish tribes that lasted for about 100 years. Most of what is known about Kind David comes from religious readings, not archeological evidence.

According to religious tradition, King David reigned around 3,000 years ago. His capital was considered to be where the Palestinian neighborhood of Silwan is located in East Jerusalem, along with the Israeli settlement and Bible park called the “City of David.”

Claim 3: This Great March of Return is totally organized by Hamas, a terrorist group.

It’s quite funny how this claim gives a huge deal of legitimacy to Hamas. They do Hamas a favor when they say that it could actually mobilize more than 40,000 people in one day for one goal.

The Great March of Return was organized by a grassroots group of Palestinians in Gaza. Here’s one of the founders of the protests, Nabeel Diab, telling Mondoweiss that it is a lie that Hamas is behind this movement. 

 

Claim 4: Hamas paid each Palestinian protesters a whopping $1,000 to cross into Israel.

Alt-right personality Laura Loomer has circulated the claim that “Hamas is paying $1000 to every Palestinian who tries to break the Gaza border with Israel and murder Israelis.”

Hamas was created in 1987. Palestinians had been resisting Israel since 1948. Who paid them before that?

Also, the assumption that Palestinians are nothing but a bunch of immoral mercenaries, is quite insulting to the nation that still comes up with new creative ways to prove its right in a better life.

Fact-check: relatives of Palestinians who were killed by Israeli forces were offered $3,000, and injured Palestinians were reportedly paid between $200 and $500. In reality these funds cover funerals, hospital bills, and provide a modest welfare stipend to the bereaved. More importantly, no Palestinian is being offered cash to kill Israelis.

Claim 5: Palestinians hate Israelis more than they love their kids.

This is a tired argument that keeps resurfacing one way or another ever since former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Mier said the first iteration, “Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.” The line was just as offensive back then as it is now.

I am not sure how I can explain that no sane human being feels at ease endangering their kids, no matter what outcome they are expecting. No one can do this. None. I hardly think this kind of statements are meant to be discussed with logic. These are dehumanizing cruel insults I have no interest in wasting time on.

Claim 6: Live ammunition was only used to stop the ones crossing the fence. Israel used tear gas and rubber bullets for the most part. The casualties of journalists and minors are totally unintended mistakes.

I won’t say a word here. I’d rather let the IDF official Twitter account respond to this one (note: the IDF later removed the tweet):

 

Claim 7: This is Israel’s land and it will always be Israel’s, deal with it.

We are dealing with it, trust me. You took territory by force and ethnic-cleansing. We are trying reclaim our rights as civil and bloodless as possible in regular non-violent civil disobedience and boycotts.

Claim 8: The humanitarian crisis in Gaza must be solved.

Senator Bernie Sanders tweeted yesterday, “The United States must play an aggressive role in bringing Israel, the Palestinian Authority, Egypt and the international community together to address Gaza’s humanitarian crisis and stop this escalating violence.”

While I appreciate these attempts to educate Americans on the Palestinian plight, and I understand how hard it is to maneuver while trying to avoid backlash, or in Bernie Sander’s case being smeared as “a self-hating Jew,” it is not very effective to call on an end to only the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, although it is getting worse by day.

The core problem is occupation and injustice. Without an end to the blockade, the humanitarian crisis will never end. Palestinians do not only demand food, water, and medication. They need full freedom, just like everybody else in the world.

Claim 9: Why should Israel give the Palestinians a state? Israel gave them Gaza and look what they have done with it? They are even split up between Fatah and Hamas.

This usually comes in response to any mention of a future Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital. This logic that says we do things better, we have to train them first, they can’t run their own affairs, is quite similar to the colonial narrative that says brown people always need supervision from the others who know better, as if we are underage teenagers who can’t control our own fates. I don’t really have anything to say to counter this claim except, “If you are going to use this statement, then don’t get mad when we call Israel a colonial-settler state.”

Palestinian family, 1910s, Ramallah. (Photo: Public Domain)

Claim 10: Every stone in this land was built by Israel. It was a barren land, Israelis built and grew it.

Palestinians do no deny the Jewish existence in historic Palestine. We do realize that the Jews existed there; we are not interested in contradicting the truth. It might be surprising to some, but both the Christians and the Muslims of Palestine believe in all the prophets of the Jewish faith; Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, and Solomon. Narratives of the stories related to these figures are almost identical to people from all three faiths. There is no conflict there. In fact there are Jewish Palestinians. 

Furthermore, Palestine was not “a barren” land when European Jews arriving in the late 1800s and early 1900s began to increase. Haifa was an important cultural hub in the region. People worked to make a living, and historic Palestine was considered mostly an agrarian region of the Ottoman Empire. The old “land without a people” claim can be labeled as fiction.

Haifa Port. (Photo: Z. Kluger. Erez Israel from the air – 1937-38)

Advertisement for a 1939 theater production staged in Haifa. (Photo: Arab48)

 

Claim 11: Palestinians be third-generation refugees. That’s ridiculous.

Well, I think we can. As long as Palestinians are living in refugee camps, have very limited accessibility to the houses our families were forced out of, Palestinians can be refugees. Once Palestinians are given the choice to have our houses and farms back, only then we stop being refugees.

Claim 12: Refugee camps are not what you think. People drive nice cars and have decent housing. They even get educated. Why are they still complaining?

Thanks to the UNRWA schools and vocational training centers, generations of Palestinians refugees were and are still able to be provided with education. This is one basic human right granted by the UN. Although the education from the UN might not always be the highest-quality one can dream of, Palestinians have constantly managed to make something out of it, so they have better lives.

This does not go against the fact that they are still displaced. If you wish to understand why they can’t simply belong to where they were born and forget about anything else, please read my previous article on the connection between Palestinians and their heritage.

Claim 13: Israel is not an apartheid state. Palestinian territory IS where you can’t find one Jew living among Palestinians. Israelis are not welcome there.

This is an increasingly popular allegation, that it is the Palestinians who are practicing apartheid, not Israel. This narrative is promoted by Israel’s former ambassador to the U.S., Danny Ayalon. He even bothered to produce a video about it and make it his pinned tweet.

The Palestinian Authority does not ban Israelis from being in, or living in the West Bank. It is Israeli who has made it illegal for Israeli citizens to enter Area A of the West Bank, the section of the occupied Palestinian territory that houses all of the Palestinian urban areas.

Claim 14: Palestinians are anti-Semites.

I totally understand that European Jews still live the horrors of the Holocaust. I do realize that the anti-Jewish sentiment is still present in Europe and the U.S. to this very day, I have witnessed it first-hand. But remember, we, Palestinians, had nothing to do with this. We are not the Germans.

Claim 15: Palestinians are originally from other parts of the world, they are not natives to the land.

This could be true indeed. But if we are going to trace every inhabitant of every spot in the world to their ancestral origins, it should sound fair when the 5.2 million Native Americans decide to kick out every other American citizen and tell them: “you have all of Europe, Africa, and Asia to live in, this is ours and only ours.”

Claim 16: Most causalities on May 14th were middle aged males in military age.

I just heard this yesterday by the Israeli Ambassador to the UK on CNN. This is usually used to say that they are potential terrorists. Totally shifting attention from the fact that there were kids among the victims. As if saying that middle-aged male Palestinians are necessarily violent death-loving ones.

This reminds me of what extremists on our side usually say when they wish to justify suicide attacks in Israeli shops and buses, saying that “ALL Israelis serve in the military, that are all responsible for occupation, therefore, they are all legitimate targets”.

If the first claim is accepted by the international community, I don’t see why the second isn’t. It’s either both are true, or neither. And for the sake of humanity I sincerely hope it’s neither.

This claim originated from Hamas’ Saleh Bardwil who said 50 of the 62 killed on Monday were Hamas’ people. This statement is unfounded propaganda. Neither Hamas or Israel has provided evidence that this is true. And Bardwil has an incentive to fabricate Hamas’ importance wherever he can.

Claim 17: Palestinians don’t respect woman. They are barbaric. Why would civilized people give them any rights? They have to be better human beings first.

The fact that there are various forms of injustices within a community doesn’t mean they can be deprived of their basic rights. Palestinians can resist patriarchy, corruption, double standards, all while resisting occupation. If they cannot, I demand that I see examples of societies and countries that could not enjoy full sovereignty before they were perfectly ideal and crime-free.

Claim 18: The call for Palestinian right to return, is an explicit call to destroy Israel and to kill its people.

Why not think “The call for Palestinian right to return is a great step to achieving peace, so Israelis and Palestinians can live all together in one secular, multi-cultural state with equal rights for all, and an ending refugee sufferings?”

The claim shows, if anything, a deep sense of dehumanizing Palestinians, of not showing a regard to their feelings, aspirations, needs, and most importantly: rights.

About Riham Darwish

Riham Darwish is a Palestinian blogger based in Amman, Jordan.

Other posts by .


Posted In:

108 Responses

  1. Paranam Kid
    Paranam Kid
    May 17, 2018, 1:25 pm

    Riham, a good article, but you can make some points even more strongly.

    Claim 3: Hamas is NOT a terrorist group, it is an organisation that fights for the liberation of the Palestinians from subjugation and genocide. The UN has authorised such liberation struggles with all means possible, incl. armed struggle.

    Claim 7: Israel was originally allocated 55% of Palestine, but managed to steal 50% of the Palestinians’ allocated 45% AND got that accepted by the international community and the Palestinians. The rest is NOT Israel’s land, there is no such title deed in existence.

    Claim 9: 1. it is NOT to Israel to “give”Palestinians their state, Israel is NOt an arbiter in this case. 2. Whatever the Palestinians would do inside their own state is absolutely none of Israel’s business, like Palestinians do not tell Israel how to run their state.

    Claim 11: the right of return for refugees is a concept approved by the UN. Israel is flouting UN resolutions about this.

    Claim 13: Israel IS an apartheid state as was proved by the UN report published in March 2017. The report was only shelved because of extreme pressure (‘blackmail’ in lay terms) from the US. Furthermore, there are plenty of discriminatory laws in Israel – see the Adalah list.

    Claim 14: Palestinians are also Semites. Furthermore, criticism of Israel does NOT constitute antsemitism except acording to Netanyahu’s deraved new ‘definition’.

    Claim 15: the Jews who infested Palestine from the end of the 19th century and trerrorised the region to establish the ‘Jewish homeland’ were European Jews who had absolutely no roots in the region whatsoever, except perhaps some spiritual links. The Palestinians have been inhabitants for centuries so the European Jews are not not natives but effectively are usurpers.

    Claim 17: there are large numbers of Jewish men who beat and rape their women, and are bit as barbaric as the Palestinians are purported to be.
    Furthermore, the Israelis, who have no track record of civilisation, are in no position to pretend to be more ‘civilised’ than the Palestinians, and certainly do NOT have the right to allocate rights to Palestinians.

    Claim 18: yes, Israel is in its current form with its current racist polity, needs to be dismantled like the racist Nazi regime was dismantled. Geographically Israel can continue to exist, like Germany did after WW2, but it needs to be rebuilt from the bottom up into a truly democratic state with EQUAL rights for ALL its citizens, incl. the Palestinians.

    The 2-state solution is as dead as a Dodo, the 1-state solution is the only option still open, with a choice between variants:
    1. an apartheid state, run by Jews for Jews only with the Palestinians being 2nd class citizens, or
    2. a democracy with equal rights for all.
    The ball is in Israel’s court.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso
      May 17, 2018, 6:32 pm

      @Paranam kid

      “Claim 3: Hamas is NOT a terrorist group, it is an organisation that fights for the liberation of the Palestinians from subjugation and genocide. The UN has authorised such liberation struggles with all means possible, incl. armed struggle.”

      Correct!!

      Also, Hamas has been trying for several years to achieve peace with Israel. Israel, however has rebuffed all of Hamas’ attempts to do so.

      To wit:

      On 16 June 2009, after meeting with former U.S. President Jimmy Carter, Ismail Haniya, prime minister of Hamas’s Gaza Strip government, announced that “If there is a real plan to resolve the Palestinian question on the basis of the creation of a Palestinian state within the borders of June 4, 1967 [i.e. 22% of historic Palestine] and with full sovereignty, we are in favour of it.”

      https://www.haaretz.com/1.5147628
      “‘We accept a Palestinian state on the borders of 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital, the release of Palestinian prisoners, and the resolution of the issue of refugees,’ Haniyeh said, referring to the year of Middle East war in which Israel captured East Jerusalem and the Palestinian territories. ” (Haaretz, December 1, 2010)

      In its revised Charter, April, 2017, Hamas again agreed to a Palestinian state based on the 4 June 1967 borders. Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, Israel promptly rejected the Hamas overture instead of using it to open a dialogue.

      https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-hamas-official-muslims-christians-jews-can-all-live-here-together-1.5957399
      “Senior Hamas Official: ‘I Think We Can All Live Here in This Land – Muslims, Christians and Jews.’” By Nir Gontarz. March 28, 2018, Haaretz.

      As for Netanyahu and the Likud party, here’s a brief summation of their positions that are contrary to international law and explain why the conflict continues:
      The Likud Party Platform:
      a. “The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.”
      b. “Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem”
      c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”
      d. “…. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.”

    • ejran
      ejran
      May 18, 2018, 4:53 am

      Thank you for articulating these very important points, Paranam Kid, particularly the basic right to armed struggle against a ruthlessly violent occupier, the fact that Palestinians are more semitic than most European Israeli colonizers, and the unapologetic need for the dismantling of a racist, institutionally murderous, apartheid regime.

      I would be much less diplomatic and say that this was a weak and disappointing article, promising in its title much more than it gave. I expected the claims to be debunked more intelligently, soberly and maturely, supporting the arguments with facts and numbers, without allowing for any compromises on key principles and values. Instead it, too, often resorted to emotional dismissal and used borrowed responses without infusing them with enough substance. A very unfortunate missed opportunity.

      I applaud the wonderful job mondoweiss has been doing, but I am often surprised at the disparity in level between some articles and others and feel that the bar needs to be higher. Pieces also often need much more careful editing (typos have the power of giving a website less credibility, which is a huge shame for such important journalism).

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso
      May 18, 2018, 11:01 am

      Must read!!

      Hard hitting and truthful!!

      https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/05/16/kill-and-kill-and-kill/

      Counterpunch, May 16, 2018
      “Kill and Kill and Kill,”by Saree Makdisi

      EXCERPT:
      “Two spectacles unfolded in Palestine on Monday. In Gaza, Israeli army snipers shot and killed 58 Palestinians—including six children—and injured almost three thousand others amid scenes of smoke, fire, teargas, dust, agony and blood. At exactly the same time, to the tinkling of champagne glasses at a glittering reception barely fifty miles away in Jerusalem, Jared Kushner and an elegant Ivanka Trump oversaw the opening of Donald Trump’s new embassy there. The juxtaposition of these two contemporaneous scenes encapsulates at a single glance the entirety of Zionism’s murderous conflict with the Palestinian people.

      “The Palestinians targeted and executed one-by-one by Israeli snipers had gathered to demand their right of return to their lands and homes inside the rest of Palestine, from the coastal plain up to and including Jerusalem. They or their parents or grandparents were driven from their homes during the Zionist ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1948 for the simple reason that they are not Jewish: too many non-Jews in the putative Jewish state would not make for much of a Jewish state after all. (‘There could be no Jewish state with a large and hostile Arab minority in its midst. There would be no such state. It would not be able to exist,’ the Israeli historian Benny Morris bluntly pointed out in an interview justifying ethnic cleansing with the newspaper Ha’aretz in 2004; ‘a Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians . . . [therefore] it was necessary to uproot them’). They have been denied the right to return to their homes ever since for the same reason: they are not Jewish, and their presence would upset the carefully-engineered demographic tables maintained by the state to preserve its tenuous claim to an exclusively Jewish identity. The maintenance of that demographic balance and the suspension of their political and human rights are inseparable from one another: the one enables, produces and requires the other.

      “The demographer Arnon Sofer of Haifa University is the architect of the current isolation of Gaza. In 2004, he advised the government of Ariel Sharon to withdraw Israeli forces from within Gaza, seal the territory off from the outside world, and simply shoot anyone who tries to break out. ‘When 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza, it’s going to be a human catastrophe,’ Sofer told an interviewer in the Jerusalem Post (11 November 2004); ‘Those people will become even bigger animals than they are today, with the aid of an insane fundamentalist Islam. The pressure at the border will be awful. It’s going to be a terrible war. So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day.’ He added that ‘the only thing that concerns me is how to ensure that the boys and men who are going to have to do the killing will be able to return home to their families and be normal human beings.’

      “This imperative to kill and kill and kill human ‘animals’ explains the violence taking place at the gates of Gaza—which has been sealed off precisely according to Sofer’s prescription—for the past several weeks, most calamitously this Monday. The killing now taking place is, in other words, exactly, to the letter, the ‘killing and killing and killing’ he called for fourteen years ago. Calmly premeditated and intentionally designed by its architect, it is equally calmly and intentionally being carried out by Israeli soldiers (about whose psychological traumas I, unlike Sofer, am not even remotely interested). In response to the current killing and shooting, a senior member of the Israeli parliament, Avi Dichter, reassured his audience on live television on Monday that they need not be unduly concerned. Their army, he told them, ‘has enough bullets for everyone.’ If every man, woman and child in Gaza gathers at the gate, in other words, there is a bullet for every one of them. They can all be killed, no problem.

      “Remember Kurtz in Heart of Darkness? ‘Exterminate the brutes!’ The genocidal intent expressed by the likes of Sofer and Dichter—mainstream and senior figures in Israeli politics—is so obvious as to make assiduous interpretation of their words unnecessary. The people of Gaza are exterminable because they are not Jewish: that is what the situation amounts to, not according to critics of the siege of Gaza, but according to its architects, planners, enablers and supporters. For that exterminability, and the ability to calmly and methodically transact it (“kill and kill and kill”) guarantees one thing, according to Sofer (in that same interview): ‘it guarantees a Zionist-Jewish state with an overwhelming majority of Jews.’ To be clear then: according to its own planners and architects—these are their words, not mine—the maintenance of a ‘Zionist-Jewish’ state fundamentally requires the Israeli army to prepare itself with a bullet for every man, woman and child in Gaza, and to shoot them one by one if they approach the gates penning them in. And if none of them are left after the smoke clears, well, so much the better; Israeli ‘boys and men’ will return to their families and sleep better at night for not having to kill them any longer.”

      Brava, Saree Makdisi!!! Well and truly stated!!!

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        May 18, 2018, 8:04 pm

        It comes from the two basic principles of the Zionists.

        1. We matter and you don’t.

        2. We must have a Jewish state in Palestine.

        This combination means that, in support of the Jewish state, any amount of harm can be done to non-Zionists. An appearance of moderated regret for the harm may be necessary to gain and maintain international acceptance, but an appearance is all it is.

      • ejran
        ejran
        May 19, 2018, 1:17 am

        @Misterioso- thank you. Can somebody tweet this and retweet this? I am not on social media, but this has to be shared widely. These instances of blunt honesty by Israeli officials need to be held on to.
        I will add that it is not just because they are “not jewish”, but as a previous article here on mw mentioned, it is because they are an uncomfortable reminder to Israel that it is a country build on a mass graveyard.

  2. Donald
    Donald
    May 17, 2018, 4:00 pm

    Claim number 5 is very popular with NYT readers. They don’t seem to realize it applies to people who choose to raise their families on stolen land.

  3. Jon66
    Jon66
    May 17, 2018, 6:29 pm

    1.”They are not animals, neither are they cannibals! Palestinians are the not encaged blood-thirsty animals that will prey the first thing they witness once they are out. ”

    Somebody should tell that to Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza. He thinks they are animals ready to kill.
    “”I told Mladenov: there is a hungry tiger blockaded for 11 years. Now this tiger is out of its cage. No one knows where that tiger is heading,” Sinwar said.”
    https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/05/10/610062464/hamas-leader-implies-hundreds-of-thousands-of-palestinians-may-breach-israel-bor

    • annie
      annie
      May 17, 2018, 10:10 pm

      He thinks they are animals ready to kill.
      “”I told Mladenov: there is a hungry tiger blockaded for 11 years. Now this tiger is out of its cage. No one knows where that tiger is heading,” Sinwar said.”

      he said nothing “ready to kill”.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        May 17, 2018, 11:07 pm

        Tiger. Hungry. Out of its cage.
        Presumably searching for a veggie burger?
        “Once they detect prey, they lurk silently at a considerable distance, camouflaging themselves with the tall grass. Then they surprise their victims attacking from behind or from the side giving them a powerful bite on the neck that breaks the vertebrae causing death by strangulation or by the rupture of the spinal cord.”
        https://www.tigers-world.com/tiger-feeding/

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 18, 2018, 12:38 pm

        “Once they detect prey…”

        Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 18, 2018, 3:07 pm

        “Tiger. Hungry. Out of its cage.” “Jon 66”

        Quick, “Jon”, hide behind that fainting couch, and for God’s sake, stop rattling your pearls. Just clutch them quietly.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      May 17, 2018, 10:38 pm

      “He thinks they are animals ready to kill.”

      With their bare hands! And from longer ranges, deadly glances!

      “Jon 66”, it’s just amazing. Even at a time like this, you’re in there pitching, helping people to make up their minds (in case they need any help!) about Israel. And you make it so easy for them.

  4. Jon66
    Jon66
    May 17, 2018, 7:58 pm

    Claim 5: Palestinians hate Israelis more than they love their kids.
    “I am not sure how I can explain that no sane human being feels at ease endangering their kids, no matter what outcome they are expecting.”
    “According to the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, in the al-Aqsa Intifada, children were used as “messengers and couriers, and in some cases as fighters and suicide bombers in attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians” during the al-Aqsa Intifada. Fatah, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad Movement and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine have all been implicated in involving children in this way. “https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict

    • annie
      annie
      May 18, 2018, 12:09 am

      jon, the wiki source for that quote was a 2004 article that doesn’t have the quote or any mention of “Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group”. their source was this guardian article https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/mar/28/israel1

      Husam’s televised saga now joins the infamous death of Mohammed al-Dura, whose last moment during a gun battle between Palestinians and Israelis in Gaza was filmed on 30 September, 2000, day three of the Palestinian uprising, and the equally widely televised lynching of two Israeli soldiers in Ramallah a few weeks later, as one of the most replayed moments of conflict.

      But whereas the killing of Mohammed and the lynching of the soldiers had a tragic logic which reflected the white heat of rage of the early days of the uprising, Husam’s story was merely tragicomic, its absurdity a reflection of the horrific hall of mirrors that life has become for Palestinians and Israelis.

      Husam, the Israeli army claimed, was 12, not 14. In the end he turned out to have been born on 5 December, 1987. He is 16 but is small. In fact, his extended family is badly affected by dwarfism. Neighbours gathered around their flat on a hillside in Nablus were doing their best to be polite, but ‘some members of the family are not, er, shall we say, not very good at learning’, as one friend put it.

      Husam’s brother Hosni, 20, tall and good-looking, was blunt. ‘Husam’s got problems at school, he’s a bit backward and very disobedient. His head was bashed in a car accident when he was six and that has affected him.’

      So much so that the muscular Husam attacked his headmaster a couple of weeks ago and was locked up in a police station to cool off. When he emerged, he was withdrawn for several days. ‘He didn’t spend much time in his father’s shop any more. He seemed a bit depressed and went into himself. For two days we saw very little of him, he came and went mysteriously,’ said Moyad Arysha, 23, who lived near by.

      Husam and his family had been the butt of jokes about dwarves. At school he was teased and called the village idiot. Under an Israeli occupation in which dignity for any Palestinian is hard to come by, Husam had none. He was easy prey for whoever persuaded him to become a suicide bomber with a belt allegedly packed with 8kg of explosive and nails. He was not devout. He was not the relative of a ‘martyr’ slain by the Israelis. Husam had not been recruited because of his conviction. He was a bit of a loser, a messed-up adolescent in search of respect and fame among his peers.

      The day after his arrest, Taysir Nasrallah, the Nablus head of Fatah, Yasser Arafat’s party, was sitting in his office fielding calls from the Palestinian Authority’s intelligence officers. ‘We’re trying to find out who gave this boy the bomb,’ he said. ‘When we do, they will be killed. They are collaborators with the Israelis. Only a collaborator would do such a thing. Giving children bombs makes us look like barbarians, it destroys our cause in the outside world. I’ve been in touch with our brigades [fighting units behind attacks on Israeli troops and suicide bombings of civilians], who say they know nothing about this boy. I think it’s the Israelis.’

      It stretches fantasy to believe Husam could have been the victim of an Israeli ‘dirty tricks’ operation. Israeli agents might have planted a non-bomb on the boy to make the Palestinians look bad, but on the West Bank and in Gaza children have been abused by both sides.

      Israeli soldiers have shown no hesitation in killing demonstrators as young as eight. I have seen children shot in the head, neck and testicles.

      anyway, i found your quote in an article on israelnationalnews (arutz sheva). they linked to a source called “child soldiers international” https://www.child-soldiers.org/global_report_reader.php?id=281 still, nothing about “Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group”. wiki is not the best source. but heck, a 14 year old article. as i mentioned earlier, the hasbarists really miss the good old days of suicide bombers, don’t you. it made your job so much easier.

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        May 18, 2018, 2:39 am

        Annie, reading that 2004 article now what is laughable is the Israeli attempt to paint the Palestinians as savages. Jon S continues with the tradition on this site in 2018. Israeli society has been broken by the occupation. Democrats and US Jews are turning away in large numbers. The real loser is Yossi Israeli.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        May 18, 2018, 9:53 am

        Annie,
        How about Human Rights Watch.
        “Most Palestinian armed groups claim to disavow the use of children in military activities, but at least 10 children have carried out suicide attacks in Israel and the Occupied Territories since October 2000.”
        http://pantheon.hrw.org/legacy/english/docs/2004/11/02/isrlpa9591.htm
        My point is not that Palestinians don’t love or care their children. Obviously most do like most parents around the world. But I don’t think it’s out of line to raise the question of why children are being allowed/encouraged to be in the midst of a riot.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 18, 2018, 3:10 pm

        ” But I don’t think it’s out of line to raise the question of why children are being allowed/encouraged…”

        …at illegal Zionist settlements? Now, there’s a healthy place for little boychiks and girlchiks to be.

      • chocopie
        chocopie
        May 18, 2018, 3:14 pm

        “But I don’t think it’s out of line to raise the question of why children are being allowed/encouraged to be in the midst of a riot.”

        If only 30 year old men turned out for the march it would look like a military operation. The whole society is turning out for the march to show the world that they are people, families, who want to be let out. It is obvious looking at the photographs that young children, pregnant women, etc., stay far to the back. They are trying to protect their most vulnerable family members while also allowing their presence to send a message to the world.

        The people in Gaza live worse than North Koreans. They are captives, what should they do? If they are not liberated their children have no future, no possibility for a good life. What would you do?? What else can they possibly do, they have to demand their rights or lie down and die.

        If North Koreans did this, the whole world would praise them. When Palestinians do it, we need to stand around and debate whether they are following all the rules of non-violent resistance.

      • annie
        annie
        May 19, 2018, 11:27 am

        jon, ok, i think understand. in the context of your concern over 10’s of thousands people attending the protests, in a contained prison of 2 million people half of whom are children where 97% of the water is undrinkable and human rights organizations say people are being slowly poisoned, you’d like to frame this concern of yours, about why parents are bringing their children (or allowing them to attend), in the context of the 10 (“at least” aprox) suicide bombings that took place, according to your link, between 2002 and 2004. your link:

        Human Rights Watch said that the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade has been implicated in at least four suicide bombings by children. These include bombings by 17-year-old Ayat al-Akhras in Jerusalem in March 2002; 17-year-old Issa Abedrabbu Ibrahim Badir in Rishon Lezion in May 2002; 16-year-old Sabih Abu al-Saoud in March 2003 and 17-year-old Islam Qteishat in Rosh Ha’ayin in August 2003.

        Islamic Jihad has been linked to at least three suicide bombings by children, including attacks by 17-year-old Safwat Abdel Rahman in Tel-Aviv in January 2002, 17-year-old Hamza Aref Samudi near Mejiddo junction in June 2002; and 17-year-old Iyad al-Masri in January 2004. Hamas has also been implicated in attacks carried out by children. In August 2003, 17-year-old Khamis Gerwan carried out a suicide bombing near Ariel, an illegal West Bank settlement.

        i can’t help but think jon, given your claim “my point is not that Palestinians don’t love or care their children”, coupled with the fact you are far from the only hasbrat introducing the topic of suicide bombings from the 2nd intifada into discussions surrounding palestine, that there’s something about the suicide bombings from the 2nd intifada that you want to talk about, besides parents / children at the protests.

        and considering how often the occupying regime appears to specifically target children (young ones playing soccer, exploding children on the beach, etc etc, way younger that the 17 yr olds in the blockquote, one 16 actually) i think we should just linger here for awhile and see what else you have to say about this now 15 year old phenomena. let’s ask ourselves, if palestinian teens started blowing themselves up again, would that make your job, as a propagandist for israel, better or worse? how valuable were those bombings back at the turn of the century to you, to israel? was it worth it? do you miss them? does a little part of you wish they would resume? just curious. and what if the kids were 5 or 6 instead of 17, would that be better for you to make your point, or worse?

        and what about all those israeli high school kids entering into the occupation forces learning how to murder at such a young age? do israeli parents think about the implications of that? do they even love their children?

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        May 19, 2018, 11:56 am

        Annie,
        The original article claims, “am not sure how I can explain that no sane human being feels at ease endangering their kids, no matter what outcome they are expecting. No one can do this. None. ”

        I am not providing examples to justify Israeli actions, but rather to demonstrate that not only do some human beings justify endangering their children, but some actually sacrifice them knowing that they will not return.

        You can’t claim that something is purely a myth if it actually occurs. The suicide bombings were a well documented example of the behavior.

      • annie
        annie
        May 19, 2018, 1:05 pm

        so, you think the parents of 17-year-old Ayat al-Akhras. 17-year-old Issa Abedrabbu Ibrahim Badir, 16-year-old Sabih Abu al-Saoud, 17-year-old Islam Qteishat, 17-year-old Safwat Abdel Rahman, 17-year-old Hamza Aref Samudi 17-year-old Iyad al-Masri and 17-year-old Khamis Gerwan sacrificed their children whereas, throughout the ages parents who sent their children off to war were not sacrificing their children for what they believed to be a greater good because they had no certainty they would not return?

        of course, i don’t know if the parents of these particular kids even knew what their kids were up to, but i suppose that’s beside the point. is your point directed at the militias directly implicated in the bombings? is that your point, that they are fundamentally less moral than state sponsored terrorists? or do you think there’s some extraordinary difference between palestinians vs another people who have been systematically oppressed, murdered, assassinated, executed, imprisoned for generations by an occupying power who has been meticulously tracking each and everyone of these children since their infancy? please elaborate on your spamming theories regarding these 17 yr old suicide bombers and their parents or the militias that occurred during the 2nd initfada. we’re all ears. but please, do respond to my queries:

        if palestinian teens started blowing themselves up again, would that make your job, as a propagandist for israel, better or worse? how valuable were those bombings back at the turn of the century to you, to israel? was it worth it? do you miss them? does a little part of you wish they would resume? just curious. and what if the kids were 5 or 6 instead of 17, would that be better for you to make your point, or worse?

        do you miss them jon? the suicide bombings? would it serve the regime you represent if they took up the practice again?

        and do you find the implications of these 10 incidences evidence of less moral character than the literally thousands of children killed purposely targeted by the zionist regime? do tell. what about the crosshair photo of jewish sniper targeting a little kid? more moral than those palestinian parents? i wonder how many little children have been viewed by jewish soldiers thru those crosshairs, and how many pulled the trigger just. for. fun.. or is that a bloodlibel? not allowed when discussing jewish kids? but of course nothing you’re implying is racist. no blood libel there.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 19, 2018, 1:26 pm

        That’s the great thing about advocating for Zionism. There’s never, ever a time when it just might be better to keep your mouth shut.
        That’s a tricky problem many advocates face, but not Zionists.

      • gamal
        gamal
        May 19, 2018, 1:37 pm

        “why children are being allowed/encouraged to be in the midst of a riot”

        allowed because Palestinians are easily controlled, having no agency eh…but why whines the naif..

        Both Palestinian and Arab women and children have been targeted by the US and Israeli armies, they can be abused, murdered, raped, tortured but when they fight back you get the vapours since they are not excluded from the conflict they’d better fight back what is their alternative, the good graces of American and Israeli imperialism (including its settler variant).

        Joronen, Mikko. “POLITICS OF PRECARIOUS CHILDHOOD: ILL TREATMENT OF PALESTINIAN CHILDREN UNDER THE ISRAELI MILITARY ORDER.” Geopolitics, vol. 21, no. 1, Jan-Mar2016, pp. 92-114.

        “Politics of Precarious Childhood: Ill Treatment of Palestinian Children under the Israeli Military Order This paper examines the corollaries of the exceptional treatment of Palestinian children under the Israeli military rule. It is shown how the widespread and systematic ill treatment of Palestinian children accrues from exceptional provisions and lack of legal cover of the Israeli military law. Such lack constitutes a precarious condition under which Palestinian children are not treated as children but as a security threat legally accountable for their acts, in many respects with ways similar to adults. Precarity, the paper argues, is produced through three conditions. First, the lack of protection is institutionalised through the legal, territorial and population-regulating techniques internal to state channels. Second, the lack of protection delegates significant power to the discretion of what Judith Butler calls the ‘petty sovereigns’ – to the soldiers, interrogators, police officers, etc., who are asked to rely on their own judgment when making decisions on the fundamental matters regarding the order and justice, even life and death of children. Third, the use of discretionary power is not only encouraged by the legal system and its exceptions; it also works in tandem with the institutional culture of impunity that accepts the violent disciplining, even torture, of Palestinian children”

        Politics of Precarious Childhood. (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/298422833_Politics_of_Precarious_Childhood_Ill_Treatment_of_Palestinian_Children_under_the_Israeli_Military_Order [accessed May 19 2018].

      • zaid
        zaid
        May 19, 2018, 2:56 pm

        What evidence do you have that the families of these suicide bombers encouraged their children to do it!

        Anyway, explain why these teenage suicide bombers stopped.do the Palestinians love their children Now but not back then you racist scumbag ?

      • annie
        annie
        May 19, 2018, 4:38 pm

        What evidence do you have that the families of these suicide bombers encouraged their children to do it!

        or even knew about it in advance? likely nada! it’s just a ‘developing theme’. like a police department studying cold cases while a serial killer is out on the loose, jon just can’t leave this alone. this is why i think he inserts it into conversations, because he misses them (they don’t do gandhi well).

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        May 19, 2018, 5:08 pm

        Annie,
        “if palestinian teens started blowing themselves up again, would that make your job, as a propagandist for israel, better or worse? ”
        It’s a bogus question.

      • annie
        annie
        May 20, 2018, 10:18 am

        certainly no more bogus then your entire diversion and hypothesis surrounding the teen suicides during the intifada jon. i think we deserve an answer. we all know what that answer is. you miss them don’t you? the only plausible response to israel’s savage brutality shooting unarmed civilians is “hamas hamas hamas” and there’s something comforting about blaming parents for the death of their children now isn’t there? more personal than just the boring hamas accusation. so that’s why you took a stab at #5. you can’t let go of golda’s hasbara. it makes your job easier somehow. you opened the door to this line of argument and you can’t shut it down just because you want to. let’s talk about about those suicide bombings some more. we know it’s what you want. better, better is the answer. they make your job easier — you miss them.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        May 19, 2018, 11:46 pm

        @jon @annie @etc

        Perhaps jon raises an interesting question. Perhaps not.

        I’m equally interested in the opposite side.

        How do Israeli parents feel knowing their children are going off to kill innocent women & children & babies medics, journalists? Children playing in their own front yard or on their way to or from school. Both of which have happened many times.

        Do those parents feel pride at the absence of humanity in the children they raised? Do they send them off full of hope they’ll extinquish the life force of some less than 12 months old?. If not do they object when they do in fact do that? Not to my knowledge.

        You can’t say it doesn’t happen or even that it is all that rare. I guess they may bury their heads in the sand.

        Or perhaps they pervert reality and morality as we saw in the azaria case where a murdering medic becomes a national hero. A cause celebre.

        Jon has lots of time to comment on a society and people he is not a part of. Of which he knows little if anything. Perhaps he could share his wisdom on that society which he is a member of which displays a moral inversion and deep deep rot of sickness
        Instead.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 20, 2018, 1:42 pm

        “Perhaps he (“Jon 66″) could share his wisdom on that society which he is a member of which displays a moral inversion and deep deep rot of sickness”

        Hear, hear! “Jon 66” should confine his comments to the state of American society. That would be the one he’s a member of.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        May 20, 2018, 5:43 pm

        Annie,
        The question is ridiculous. Of course I am much happier now that the suicide bombings have stopped. As I have said before, I don’t want bloodshed of anyone.
        You continue to seem to miss my point so I’ll try one more time.
        1. The author says that no Palestinian parent would put their child in harms way if they could avoid it.
        2. I present evidence that some parents did just that.
        3. I don’t think this necessarily reflects upon Palestinian society as a whole.

        Once again, I don’t want suicide bombings anymore than you want dead 8 month olds in Gaza.

      • annie
        annie
        May 21, 2018, 1:56 am

        the very act of giving birth in gaza puts children in harm’s way way jon. and a religious fanatic raising their child on stolen palestinian land? how does that not put a child in harm’s way? and what of european refugees raising their child in a home build by the great grandfather of the palestinian owners very own hands, killed or ethnically cleansed from his village? drinking out of the cup made by the hands of the owners mother? how does that not endanger the life of the colonizer’s child for generations? maybe both sides should stop having sex, if you’re so concerned with parents endangering the lives of their offspring. how does any palestinian secure the safety of their child when their people are hunted down and murdered by invading forces? where genocide lingers, the hunter judges the intent and moral judgment of their prey.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        May 21, 2018, 7:54 am

        From, again, that dangerously sick guy licensed to cut up people –unless he is just a bot as I wish:

        2. I present evidence that some parents did just that.

        No you didn’t. After spending like 890 posts harping on it, you still haven’t shown that the kids’ own beds are any safer from your murder attacks than demonstrations.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 21, 2018, 12:00 pm

        “From, again, that dangerously sick guy licensed to cut up people…”

        “Echin”, let’s not assume “Jon 66” is a real surgeon, until he gives us his name and board certs, and tells which hospital he’s affiliated with.
        Let’s not create any unnecessary fear. Surgery is scary enough.

    • Donald
      Donald
      May 18, 2018, 12:32 am

      Jon66 thinks the actions of a handful of Palestinians means it is okay to make a sweeping and dehumanizing claim about all Palestinians.

      I guess it’s okay to do that to Palestinians in his eyes. I wonder if the principle generalizes to other groups.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        May 18, 2018, 1:35 pm

        Donald,
        Please reread my post. I do not believe that I have drawn any broad conclusions based upon anecdotes. I do believe that the statement that no parent would put their kids in intentional harms way is patently false.
        However, I would appreciate your thoughts on the many posts here which take the actions of a handful of Israelis and then assume that all Israelis or Zionists are the same.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        May 18, 2018, 3:00 pm

        Route 66

        the statement that no parent would put their kids in intentional harms way is patently false.

        Perhaps, but in Palestine the kids are in harm’s way even in their beds asleep. Ever occurred to our genius? Want more pictures of children, not to mention adults, made into mush or wounded in their refugee huts? Ever wondered why the Tamimi kid who was rescued from strangulation by the SS a couple years ago wore a plaster? His arm had been broken by a gas canister shot into his room. Oh, and what about the 8-month-old girl just suffocated day before yesterday in her sleep by Azraeli gas? Not in harm’s way. eh?

        I would appreciate your thoughts on the many posts here which take the actions of a handful of Israelis and then assume that all Israelis or Zionists are the same.

        All Zionists of course are all Zionists!
        If this is the level of intelligence with which our Johnny practices medicine (so he says), woe to the poor patient.

      • Donald
        Donald
        May 18, 2018, 3:37 pm

        I don’t think all Israelis are the same, though my impression from thousands of miles away is that most Jewish Israelis have become incapable of acknowledging the brutality of their government. If true, the chances of any sort of just peace are negligible for the foreseeable future.

        From what I have read some Palestinians obviously don’t think it would be a good idea having their children anywhere near the IDF when it is practicing its purity of arms. But it is just a bit obscene for Israel defenders to be making this point. As a citizen of the country that arms Israel it isn’t really my place to talk about it much either. The main point you and I should be focusing on is the fact that Israel fired on very large numbers of clearly unarmed people, including women and medics and some children.

        I have read accusations against Hamas at Tablet. Supposedly they tricked their own civilians into rushing the fence, claiming it was breached when it wasn’t and that the IDF was running away. I find that a bit hard to believe, but supposing it was true, then Hamas would bear blame for lying to its own people and getting some of them killed. But even then, this simply doesn’t get Israel off the hook in any way.

        That is what is frustrating and basically racist about the pro Israel reaction. You could have some completely independent outside party (Americans don’t qualify— we are complicit in Israeli crimes) examine exactly who did what and they might find that Hamas had done some such bad thing as was alleged at Tablet. But no objective person would think this means Israel gets to shoot over 1000 people, many nowhere near the fence. And the biggest issue of all is that the blockade is utterly immoral. These people are in a prison and have every right to break out. If they could do it with violence, they would have the right to do so. It’s not practical, but they would have the right. Instead they are supposed to sit quietly like animals in a factory farm.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 18, 2018, 4:17 pm

        “If this is the level of intelligence with which our Johnny practices medicine (so he says)”

        Don’t worry, the only surgery he does is that consequent on being a husband and father.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        May 18, 2018, 4:42 pm

        Echi,
        “Oh, and what about the 8-month-old girl just suffocated day before yesterday in her sleep by Azraeli gas? Not in harm’s way. eh?”

        Do you mean the 8 month old who was being watched by a 12 year old who then put the baby, who had a heart condition, on a bus to the riot?

        Certainly a tragedy, but quite an error in judgement.

        “Layla was dozing at their home in Gaza City when a call went up: A bus was waiting, outside a nearby mosque, to take residents to the border fence, where the protest was raging. Her 12-year-old uncle, Ammar, bundled her up in his arms and carried her out the door.”
        https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/16/world/middleeast/layla-ghandour-gaza.html

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        May 18, 2018, 4:45 pm

        Donald,
        I’m simply responding to the article’s assertions. I don’t disagree that this is not the discussion we need to have, but if you write an article saying A, you should be prepared to defend the assertion of examples of not-A.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        May 18, 2018, 4:51 pm

        Echi,
        “All Zionists of course are all Zionists!”
        But are they all the same?
        Are all Christians the same? Or all capitalists, socialists, etc?
        I know you want to put people into easy to categorize groups, but people just are not that simple.

      • annie
        annie
        May 18, 2018, 5:35 pm

        all christians are the same as it pertains to belief in christ, albeit they don’t all worship the same. and all zionists are the same as it pertains to believing in a jewish state at the expense of palestinians, albeit some think part of the land should be a palestinian state.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        May 18, 2018, 6:05 pm

        Our Johnny isn’t content with being exposed as a nut and an enemy of logic. He always must insist endlessly, every time revealing more of his hateful make-up.

        “All Zionists of course are all Zionists!”
        But are they all the same?

        They are all the same in the point I’m interested in, viz. they are by definition people who support or are colonist settlers, apparently on behalf of GB and the US, imbued by a racist, aggressive and genocidal ideology that is the precursor and the historical twin of Nazism. And operating as a friggin cancer on the world’s face. Like your good self, also such a material supporter. What are the “differences” that would mean anything, once we know the core characteristics?

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        May 18, 2018, 6:07 pm

        Oh, and speaking about Johnny, don’t you just love it when a murderer gravely says “tragedy”?

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        May 18, 2018, 6:14 pm

        Mooser,

        May heavens hear you. At my age, I might anytime land in an ER in an emergency and, instead of a Zionist but relatively sane and competent colleague, fall in the hands of no-logic Johnny.

      • eljay
        eljay
        May 18, 2018, 6:18 pm

        || Jon66: Echi,
        “All Zionists of course are all Zionists!”
        But are they all the same? ||

        Insofar as they all believe that the religion-based identity of Jewish comprises a right to Jewish supremacism in/and a religion-supremacist “Jewish State ” in as much as possible of Palestine, yes, all Zionists are the same.

      • Bumblebye
        Bumblebye
        May 18, 2018, 7:50 pm

        To ‘husband and father’ jon 66, perhaps this migh evoke a little empathy?

        “Via B’tselem

        My name is Olfat al-Kurd. I live in Shuja’iya in Gaza. I am 37 years old and have four children. In July 2017, I joined the B’Tselem team as one of three field researchers in Gaza. In the past few weeks, since the protests along the fence with Israel began, we have been working around the clock to document, collect eyewitness accounts and testimonies of injured people, and gather information about the demonstrations and casualties.

        I attend the weekly protests not only in my professional capacity but also as a Gazan. Some of my photos, posted on B’Tselem’s photo blog, show how most of the protesters gather in tents pitched far from the fence. These families enjoy entertainment stages, live music, food stalls and other family activities. We go there to convey a political message, to demonstrate, but non-violently – we don’t go there with weapons. The soldiers shoot at us nonetheless, and people are injured from live fire and tear gas.

        This week, a concerned Israeli colleague asked me why I keep attending the protests, even though it’s dangerous. I replied that I am, of course, afraid, sometimes so much that I fear I won’t come back.

        But the truth is that nowhere in Gaza is safe – whether near the border or in our own homes. Israeli planes can bomb any house, anywhere, at any moment. We all live in constant dread of something terrible happening. Everyone in Gaza lost a relative in the last wars. I lost my brother in the 2009 war.

        The festival activities at the protests are a rare opportunity for us to breathe, meet people, and feel that we belong to something larger than ourselves. The open areas near the fence are the vastest in Gaza, but no one has dared go there since the last war. We can’t go to the beach any longer because sewage infrastructure has collapsed as a result of the blockade, and raw sewage flows into the sea. Many Gazans live in abject poverty and cannot afford to sit in a café or a restaurant, so they come to the protests with a coffee thermos and food.

        Israel has been holding Gaza under blockade for more than ten years. Some of the young people participating in the protests and being wounded or even killed by soldiers, do not know what it’s like to have running water and a steady supply of electricity. They have never left Gaza and grew up in a prison.

        You can’t visit us, Israel doesn’t allow anyone to see what’s going on here. There is no real life in Gaza. The whole place is clinically dead.

        The younger generations are crushed by the hopelessness and death everywhere. The protests have given us all a spark of hope. They are our attempt to cry out to the world that it must wake up, that there are people here fighting for their most basic rights, which they are entitled to fulfill. We deserve to live, too.

        Sincerely,

        Olfat al-Kurd
        Gaza Field Researcher
        B’tselem”

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        May 18, 2018, 8:15 pm

        Eljay,
        “in as much as possible of Palestine, ”
        Last time we had this discipussion you couldn’t define this phrase for me. Since you are using it again, can you tell me what it means?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 18, 2018, 8:22 pm

        “… I might anytime land in an ER in an emergency and… fall in the hands of no-logic Johnny.”

        Nah, he specializes. You got nothing to worry about, unless you catch an acute phimosis.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        May 18, 2018, 8:30 pm

        Annie,
        “zionists are the same as it pertains to believing in a jewish state at the expense of palestinians”
        That’s just incorrect.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        May 18, 2018, 10:48 pm

        “zionists are the same as it pertains to believing in a jewish state at the expense of palestinians”
        That’s just incorrect.

        The correct expression being “there’s no expense involved”. You don’t have to pay extra, we’ll exterminate you and erase your very memory just like the American Indians –no extra charge,

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        May 18, 2018, 10:52 pm

        Mooser,

        Thanks to the butcher who cut me in my tender age, a phimosis won’t need surgery. But I still worry for his patients.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        May 19, 2018, 3:41 am

        I don’t find it that hard to imagine living family life under so much economic and political pressure that you can’t, at least at some intense moments, give your children what seems, to them or to you, a good reason for staying out of the combat zone or even out of the combat.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        May 19, 2018, 4:25 am

        As to the Jewish state ‘at the expense of Palestinians’ – it is true that there was the Altneuland streak and the Daniel Deronds streak in Zionism from the beginning, either asserting or assuming that the Palestinians would benefit too. Most Zionists now believe – article of faith and all that – that the sufferings of the Palestinians have been due to not to Z but to their rejection of Z. People like Annie and me – hope not putting words in her mouth – consider this belief to be preposterous. Surely it cannot be doubted that Israel exists at the objective, if not the intended, expense of the Palestinians and that even the intention must have been and must still be the ruthless one of exacting any expense that was or is necessary to serve the imperative that the Jewish State must be founded or must continue.. There could never have been a form of Z lacking at least some of the objective effect, since the arrival of an immigrant group claiming ‘this land is ours’ imposes detriments in itself and implies more disruptions. There could never have been a form of Z lacking the ruthless intention because that would be to make the prime imperative of Z secondary.

      • eljay
        eljay
        May 19, 2018, 8:25 am

        || Jon66: Eljay,
        “in as much as possible of Palestine, ”
        Last time we had this discipussion you couldn’t define this phrase for me. Since you are using it again, can you tell me what it means? ||

        I defined it clearly. You refused to comprehend. I’m not going to play your little game again.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        May 19, 2018, 12:19 pm

        Hughes,
        As always a thoughtful reply. Disruptions by themselves are neither positive or negative. Although peace is far off, I don’t see a reason why all Israeli citizens can’t live equally in a Zionist state along side a Palestinian state (details to follow).

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 19, 2018, 1:29 pm

        “Although peace is far off, I don’t see a reason why all Israeli citizens can’t live equally in a Zionist state along side a Palestinian state (details to follow).”

        “Details to follow”? Do you really think you are helping find “common ground” by making a sick joke of Zionist advocacy?

      • eljay
        eljay
        May 19, 2018, 6:02 pm

        || Jon66: … I don’t see a reason why all Israeli citizens can’t live equally in a Zionist state … ||

        And Joe doesn’t see a reason why all Joe’s house inhabitants – including the women chained in his basement – can’t live equally in a Rapist house.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        May 20, 2018, 12:33 am

        At the palestinians expense? What about the ‘poor’ Syrians. They argued all along that the palestinian mandate was just a part of southern Syria which they claimed along with the Lebanon as part of their rightful greater Syria. It is well known that before the creation of modern israel many Arabs living in the mandate commonly referred to themselves ‘south Syrians’ . Of course there were just as many recent Arab immigrants from Egypt, Lebanon Ann’s other places in the former ottoman empire.

    • CigarGod
      CigarGod
      May 18, 2018, 9:25 am

      Jon66,
      Why do you post here?
      You always remind me of a poor unfortunate being used by unscrupulous forces.

      You cite things you think bolster your positions, but as Annie just did, uses your own examples to bash you over the head.

      – Jon66 – “…has got problems at school, he’s a bit backward and very disobedient. His head was bashed in a car accident when he was six and that has affected him.”

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 18, 2018, 12:44 pm

        Why does “Jon 66” post here?
        Because he is
        “a husband, father, and surgeon.”
        In that order.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        May 18, 2018, 8:35 pm

        Cigar,
        I post because I hope some day that folks of differing thoughts can find common ground. That people can realize that those we disagree with are not necessarily our enemy. That we can hopefully find a place where all can live in peace and not demonize the other.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        May 18, 2018, 10:40 pm

        Johnny is one of a kind. He posts to say

        That people can realize that those we disagree with are not necessarily our enemy.

        The guy still needs a memo that disagreeing ain’t a problem. Getting robbed, exiled, murdered and genocided is a bit too much, even without disagreeing and even if committed by genocidaire Johnny –or his substitutes that he supports. They are enemies, just look the word up.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 19, 2018, 12:58 pm

        “I post because I hope some day that folks of differing thoughts can find common ground.”

        And you would say your comments facilitate that admirable end?

        And do you realize how twisted, false and phony that “common ground” is in the context of the events?

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        May 20, 2018, 12:40 am

        @cig

        He posts here for the same reasons most zionist post here. a) because we can (MW hasn’t banned this yet) and b) because somebody has to remind you that the world goes on wether you devote some,most or all of your time to fighting zionists or not. It also gives the few dozen commenters here a much easier target with which to spew invective or just argue how righteous their case is and how evil and perverse the Jewish nation is. Plus,. It’s much more entertaining then just reading the articles.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 20, 2018, 12:59 pm

        “He posts here for the same reasons most zionist post here. a) because we can (MW hasn’t banned this yet)”

        Oh, “DaBakr, please don’t worry about getting banned. I don’t think Mondo would ever do that. Mondo is under no compulsion (well, except pity) to help Zionism appear any better than it is.

        And please don’t think your comments are ineffective, “DaBakr”. They help lots of people to make up their mind about Zionism and Israel.

  5. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    May 17, 2018, 11:15 pm

    I always check out @davidfrum for the highest class hasbara. Jon S also uses the 50 Hamas même up thread.

    David Frum Retweeted

    Laura Stone

    @l_stone

    ·

    20h

    Conservative leader Andrew Scheer rips into PM Trudeau for failing to condemn Hamas, whom the CPC leader blames for the violence in Gaza #cdnpoli

    David Frum Retweeted

    Senator Linda Frum

    @LindaFrum

    ·

    22h

    Trudeau calls Israel’s effort to protect 1948 internationally recognized border against armed incursion “appalling.” True friends of Israel knew it was only a matter of time. First opportunity in office to defend Israel’s right to self defence & our PM condemns Israel not Hamas.

    Senator Linda Frum

    @LindaFrum

    Hamas itself acknowledges that 50 of the casualties in battle at Gaza Strip border were its own gunmen. Yet @JustinTrudeau has condemnation only for Israel – and cannot even bring himself to mention the terrorist group that incited the violence and hopes to benefit from it (link: https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau/status/996839592727900160) twitter.com/JustinTrudeau/…

  6. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    May 18, 2018, 8:23 am

    The cost of the Jewish state

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/may/18/a-suicide-in-gaza
    He wrote of his personal sadness. His parents divorced when he was a child, and Mohanned felt rejected by his father. His readers could relate to this pain too, because every family in Gaza is broken: most have had members killed in the conflict, and many have also been separated by years of exile, or torn apart by imprisonment. Thousands of Palestinians are today locked up in Israeli jails.

    He had a large female readership: women were drawn to his particular melancholy. “He could write about the absurdity of all our lives – the humiliation, as well as the tragedy. He knew this was a fake place,” said one young woman I know, who had escaped through the tunnels into Egypt in order to take up her American scholarship. “It’s normal,” she laughed.

    “It’s like this,” said Mustafa AlAssar, a 17-year-old Gazan who wants to study international law but can’t, as there is no such course in Gaza, and he cannot leave. “You suddenly realise you can’t be the person you want to be in Gaza. And you can’t show anyone outside who you are, because you can’t get out. So you can’t be the person you want to be.”

    For the first time in all the years I have been reporting from Gaza, I encountered children begging, heard talk of prostitution, and saw evidence of widespread drug addiction and domestic abuse, often in homes where as many as 10 people lived in a single room. They had not been rehoused since the 2014 bombardment. In this devastation, there was evidence that Islamic State was gaining support

  7. Jackdaw
    Jackdaw
    May 18, 2018, 8:44 am

    Debunk this!

    100 explosive devices planted along fence by ‘non-violent’ protestors.
    https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5264011,00.html

    • Donald
      Donald
      May 18, 2018, 10:04 am

      I have no interest in debunking it if it is true, which I can’t judge. So your argument is that Hamas tried to blow holes in a fence, so it was okay for Israel to shoot thousands of people.

      I have read the pro Israel side making its case in various places and if you granted all of it as factual, you still have Israel firing at unarmed people, many of them far from the fence. And Israel maintaining Gaza as a vast prison camp. You guys don’t seem to understand that Hamas’s actions don’t justify what Israel does.

      • Paranam Kid
        Paranam Kid
        May 18, 2018, 12:20 pm

        @Donald Johnson: very well said, your controlled, yet so to the point reply, is admirable.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        May 18, 2018, 1:02 pm

        You guys don’t seem to understand that Hamas’s actions don’t justify what Israel does

        and that “Israel”s action justifies most anything Hamas might do.

      • David44
        David44
        May 18, 2018, 1:15 pm

        I too have no particular interest in debunking a story about the planting of explosives, though, like Donald, I would note that the fence rather than any people appears to have been the target. I would, however, add a couple of points to Donald’s response.

        First, according to the Ynet article, those explosives were planted over a period of 6 weeks (or 8 weeks, if one follows the headline rather than the body of the text), so it does not appear to have much to do with the killing of 61 mostly unarmed people and the wounding of more than 1000 others in a single day.

        Second, I thought the following paragraph in the article was very revealing:

        “16 terrorist activities took place in the past six weeks in the Gaza Division’s territory, including setting off charges, firing at Israeli forces, downing of a handful of army drones and sabotaging military and civilian infrastructures, such as the three times the Kerem Shalom goods border crossing had been torched.”

        In other words, in the 6 week period running up to the Monday protests, there were just 16 examples – around one every 3 days – of what the Israelis called “terrorism”, including the setting off of explosives (presumably most of the 100 explosives allegedly planted didn’t even go off), and most of which appear to have been aimed at soldiers and military on active duty, and hence not “terrorism” at all. Again, it is hard to see how this can be considered even a vague justification for the mass killing and shooting of mainly unarmed protesters.

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        May 18, 2018, 1:28 pm

        @Donald

        Israel isn’t perfect, far from it, but lets be far when we apportion blame.

        The citizens of Gaza and their Hamas leadership are primarily responsible for the conditions there.

        Donald. It’s easy to point fingers, but it’s harder to arrive at a solution.
        Be honest Donald, how should Israel respond to thousands of angry Gazans, led by Hamas, as they try to break down the security fence and invade Israel.

        I’m genuinely interested in what you have to say.

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        May 18, 2018, 2:23 pm

        No David, the soldiers were the targets.
        Weeks before the Great March, Gazans terrorists were planting anti-personnel bombs to kill and maim soldiers.

        https://www.idf.il/en/minisites/hamas/bombs-on-the-border-explosives-on-the-gaza-security-fence/

        Stop being a baby, David.

      • Donald
        Donald
        May 18, 2018, 5:14 pm

        Jackdaw —I don’t think the Israelis have the right to maintain the blockade, but if I go along with your premise than they would use water cannons and non lethal rounds and they wouldn’t be shooting at people far from the fence. Supposing I imagine myself as a liberal Zionist facing this problem of protestors, you don’t gun down unarmed people.

        But that would be advice for some country which had legitimate borders facing mostly unarmed civilians. Israel is running Gaza as a giant prison camp.

      • David44
        David44
        May 18, 2018, 6:47 pm

        Jackdaw wrote:

        “No David, the soldiers were the targets.
        Weeks before the Great March, Gazans terrorists were planting anti-personnel bombs to kill and maim soldiers.

        https://www.idf.il/en/minisites/hamas/bombs-on-the-border-explosives-on-the-gaza-security-fence/

        Stop being a baby, David.”

        A very strange example to cite, for the following reasons:

        (1) The article dates from 2012 (you didn’t notice that, did you?), so it has nothing whatever to do with devices being planted “weeks before the Great March”.

        (2) Even in 2012, the only example of such a device that the article provides is actually one that it acknowledges as a fake. We only have the IDF’s word for it that other such devices that were not fakes were planted at earlier times.

        (3) Even in 2012, we also only have the IDF’s word for it that these makeshift devices were an attempt to hurt soldiers, not to damage the fence. (Why would you fall for such an obviously propagandist attempt to project intentions into the minds of the enemies of the people who wrote the article?)

        (4) Even if they were an attempt to hurt soldiers, as I pointed out, attacking soldiers on active duty is NOT TERRORISM (except, of course, in the perverted minds of Israeli propagandists).

        Is that really the best you can do?

    • zaid
      zaid
      May 18, 2018, 1:04 pm

      100 explosive device and not a single Israeli soldier killed!

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        May 18, 2018, 2:20 pm

        Don’t you wish.

      • eljay
        eljay
        May 18, 2018, 3:45 pm

        || zaid: 100 explosive device and not a single Israeli soldier killed! ||

        || Jackdaw: Don’t you wish. ||

        Are you claiming that one or more of those explosive devices has killed one or more Israeli soldiers? Got anything at all to back that up?

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        May 18, 2018, 4:21 pm

        Jackzz,

        One sure wishes they be hanged in Nuremberg, or whatever is supposed to be done to them today, as per international law.
        When the law isn’t applied, popular justice has to replace it. Get out while the going is good. Pity we won’t be able to try you when you run back home.

      • zaid
        zaid
        May 19, 2018, 3:00 pm

        The fact that no Israelis were killed is a prove that the IDF claim of 100 explosive device is bullshit.

        Or maybe by explosive device they meant fire crackers.

    • John O
      John O
      May 18, 2018, 1:40 pm

      Explosives planted “over an eight-week period” means the Israeli authorities knew about the first one two months ago. So how come this is the first we’ve heard of it?

      • Bumblebye
        Bumblebye
        May 18, 2018, 1:51 pm

        Exactly. Had any of this really existed the idf and the israeli govt would have released info to the world’s media and ensured all zionist talking heads were well armed with their facts. What sources are quoted or named in the article? The whole thing’s a lie!

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        May 18, 2018, 2:24 pm

        First time you’ve heard of it because you prefer reading anti-Zionist agitprop.
        https://www.idf.il/en/minisites/hamas/bombs-on-the-border-explosives-on-the-gaza-security-fence/

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        May 18, 2018, 2:30 pm

        @bung bee

        If Gazans want freedom so bad, let them begin with emancipation of their women and a the free election of a democratic, secular government.

        Maybe after they’ve reached a reasonable degree of political and social maturity, Israel will start treating them like equals.

        Till then, they can stew.

      • John O
        John O
        May 18, 2018, 4:55 pm

        @Pheasant

        Your link is to an article from 2012.

      • Bumblebye
        Bumblebye
        May 18, 2018, 6:10 pm

        Carrion eater – but it’s israeli policy to prevent Palestinians in Gaza from achieving any kind of normality.

        Zionism, in a nutshell

        Saree Makdisi writes:

        “The demographer Arnon Sofer of Haifa University is the architect of the current isolation of Gaza. In 2004, he advised the government of Ariel Sharon to withdraw Israeli forces from within Gaza, seal the territory off from the outside world, and simply shoot anyone who tries to break out. “When 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza, it’s going to be a human catastrophe,” Sofer told an interviewer in the Jerusalem Post (11 November 2004); “Those people will become even bigger animals than they are today, with the aid of an insane fundamentalist Islam. The pressure at the border will be awful. It’s going to be a terrible war. So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day.” He added that “the only thing that concerns me is how to ensure that the boys and men who are going to have to do the killing will be able to return home to their families and be normal human beings.”

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 18, 2018, 8:15 pm

        “He added that “the only thing that concerns me is how to ensure that the boys and men who are going to have to do the killing will be able to return home to their families and be normal human beings.”

        Oh shoot, that’s no problem! Just make sure those “boys and men who are going to have to do the killing” (has the passive voice ever been so aggressive?) know they are doing a mitzvah, doing G-d’s and the Jewish people’s holy work, and far from any deleterious effects, they’ll come out of it even healthier than they went in!
        No trauma ‘long us!

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        May 19, 2018, 7:42 am

        @ Bumblebye

        Arnon Sofer’s concern mirror the concern Himmler voiced in a now famous speech to an assembly of his SS officers.

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        May 19, 2018, 10:14 am

        @Mooser

        The picture of Dorian Israel.
        By Day he is the glamorous tech startup nation but there is a mirror at home where his face turns into Gaza.

    • Bumblebye
      Bumblebye
      May 18, 2018, 1:46 pm

      “Data obtained by ynet”

      If there was any truth in this the idf would have released it to the world’s media and it would have beena major and endless talking point of every pro-israeli talking head in the mediaverse.

      What it really is is a lie created to inform ‘folk memory’ in the future. There will be references made to it by every zionist, but this lying article will be the original source of an utterly unfounded claim.

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        May 19, 2018, 10:20 am

        Zionism has been fake news from the get go.

    • John O
      John O
      May 18, 2018, 5:38 pm

      @Pheasant

      Normally (I use the word advisedly), when any Palestinian gets within a few hundred metres of the fence, they get shot. This has been amply proven over the last few weeks. Now, we are expected to believe that on 100 occasions, despite the listening devices, the drones, the sniperscopes and the night-vision goggles, Palestinians succeeded in planting bombs along the fence. If it’s true, then heads need to roll within the IDF senior officer corps, as they are clearly not doing their job.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        May 19, 2018, 7:45 am

        If memory serves, the IDF have been ordered to shoot at anyone within about 300 yards of the fence.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 20, 2018, 1:03 pm

        “the IDF have been ordered to shoot at anyone within about 300 yards of the fence.”

        Ah, that 300 yards must be what “Jon 66” is referring to when he speaks of “common ground”.

  8. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    May 18, 2018, 1:49 pm

    @Zaid
    “100 explosive device and not a single Israeli soldier killed!”

    Even more miraculous – not a single Ziotruppe immorally slapped during the six week Untermenschen “terrorist onslaught” !!

    • Jackdaw
      Jackdaw
      May 18, 2018, 2:26 pm

      @Ossin

      Try sex sometime. You might find it a relaxing diversion from your usual impotent rage and quasi intellectual masturbation.

      Whackada whackada.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 18, 2018, 3:02 pm

        “Try sex sometime.”

        Within the Laws of Family Purity, of course. I’m sure “Jackdaw” didn’t mean to imply anything different.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        May 19, 2018, 11:59 am

        That was mere abuse, hardly even a personal attack but somewhere on a lower level.

    • MHughes976
      MHughes976
      May 19, 2018, 12:03 pm

      A Palestinian version of Vimy Ridge.! Not too credible with their resources.

  9. Boris
    Boris
    May 18, 2018, 5:18 pm

    #1 and #5

    https://www.npr.org/2018/05/15/611213687/its-a-day-of-grieving-and-more-protests-in-gaza

    AHMED AL-BORDANI: (Through interpreter) This is a kite that’s going to go to the Jews.

    INSKEEP: He said it’s designed to float over the Israelis and catch fire. It was decorated with writing claiming Jerusalem for Palestinians and also with swastikas.
    What does this thing mean to you? Why do you put that on there?

    AL-BORDANI: (Through interpreter) The Jews go crazy for Hitler when they see it.

    INSKEEP: The Israelis know that people are flying kites with swastikas. They know this, and they use it to discredit you, to say this shows you’re bad people. What do you think about that?

    AL-BORDANI: (Foreign language spoken).

    INSKEEP: “This is actually what we want them to know,” he says, “that we want to burn them.”

    • chocopie
      chocopie
      May 18, 2018, 5:50 pm

      This is what NPR considers balanced, even-handed reporting: Israelis killed hundreds of Palestinians. Also, one Palestinian said something racist.

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      May 18, 2018, 5:52 pm

      So what’s your problem, tovarischtsch?
      It does effectively drive you nuts (as if you were sane before.) He was entirely correct.
      And “burning” one’s inhuman oppressors is the least one could wish. We’re all human, after all, and that is the natural response you get to what you are doing. And –you were told so, back then.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        May 19, 2018, 4:37 am

        I thought that the npr article was quite good in that explained the events from the Hamas point of view as a rationally conceived attempt to force Israel, presumably through the pressure of world opinion, to alleviate the plight of Gaza. This was said to reflect the experience of hunger strikers in getting concessions from a position in which they started as much the weaker party. That is not to say that the plan will meet with success or that it will not be wrecked on the usual rock of American political opinion. The angry young man too was of interest. It is surely the case that anger against suffering and injustice can, under enough sustained provocation, burst some restraints and become racist. But there is much greater importance and greater wrong in the relentless suffering and the sentiments sustaining it.

  10. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    May 19, 2018, 5:05 pm

    @Jackdaw
    “Try sex sometime. You might find it a relaxing diversion from your usual impotent rage and quasi intellectual masturbation.

    Whackada whackada”

    Steady on old son I think you are about to blow a gasket.Please explain “try sex sometime” “usual impotent rage” and the crown jewel in your chavy ad hominem “quasi intellectual masturbation”.

    “whackada whackada” . WTF ? No don`t even try to explain that. It sounds as if you are doing something harmful to yourself. Suggest you book an appointment with a counsellor who specialises in sexual fixations.

    Yours sincerely

    Without impotent rage

Leave a Reply