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Israel got delegitimized last week

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I went on vacation for a week and in that time, Israel got delegitimized. That is the striking impression from the news. The two-state consensus is now in a complete shambles in the U.S. discourse, and many Americans on both right and left are beginning to support one democratic state in Israel and Palestine, which of course would mean the end of what Benjamin Netanyahu calls “the one and only Jewish state.”

Here are those events:

–Birthright trips– the free indoctrination trip to Israel for Jews under 26, sponsored by Republican Sheldon Adelson and Democrat Haim Saban– are reportedly down in numbers by as much as 50 percent this winter following a campaign by the renegade Jewish group IfNotNow to get young Jews to avoid the propaganda tour.

–Israeli actress Natalie Portman says Israel’s new nation-state law is “racist.”

–Incoming-congresswoman Rashida Tlaib refuses to bend one iota in her support for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions, or BDS, thereby actually planting the flag for BDS in Congress, alongside newcomer Ilhan Omar of Minnesota. This is a massive symbolic victory at a time when Congressional leaders are seeking to criminalize forms of BDS advocacy; and Tlaib says she will wear a traditional Palestinian robe at her swearing-in, bless her heart.

–New York Times columnist Michelle Goldberg responds to the Tlaib news by asserting that anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism and, acknowledging that the two-state solution is over, all but calls for equal rights for all in one state. The piece was a blow to the consensus establishment position, and instantly elevates Goldberg to a leadership role, maybe THE leadership role in mainstream media at a time when four NYT columnists justify the slaughter of unarmed Gaza protesters. And indeed Goldberg’s piece necessitated a nasty response from the right/center/liberal bloc, Bret Stephens of the New York Times and Jonathan Greenblatt of the ADL.

–Shibley Telhami of Brookings released a bombshell poll showing that virtually equal numbers of Americans support a one-state outcome (35 percent) as those supporting a two-state outcome (36 percent). And NPR’s Michel Martin interviewed Telhami, fairly; and he said directly what Michelle Goldberg was also saying:

[M]any people, particularly on the left, worry that advocating the two-state, even if they want it, if it’s not possible anymore, it’s in a way legitimizing the status quo that they see as unjust.

That is a breakthrough moral statement. It is a challenge to liberal Zionists: you are worse than rightwing Zionists, because you dangle over the Palestinians a delusional solution that you know will never eventuate, thereby putting off any real struggle for freedom.

And of course it is a challenge to the mainstream media, which has not reflected these views at all but stuck by the cruel peace process charade. In fact, and quite brilliantly, Michel Martin introduced Telhami by saying that Marc Lamont Hill was fired by CNN for saying there should be one state between the river and the sea, but “a new poll from the University of Maryland finds that many Americans share the views expressed by Hill.”

It should not be missed that Martin, Telhami and Hill, as well as Tlaib and Omar, are all people of color; and it has been a longterm goal of the Palestinian struggle to elevate those potential allies in the US discourse. That’s happening. Women of color are about to change Congress. And Jews of conscience are going to be right alongside them.

As usual I focus on the liberation of Jews and elites from Zionism, so let me return to the Michelle Goldberg piece of December 7. Goldberg has a history as a liberal Zionist, but the piece had an anti-Zionist backbeat. Titled Anti-Zionism Isn’t the Same as Anti-Semitism. American Jews have nothing to fear from the new congressional critics of Israel,” the essay began by saying that equating anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism means “treating Israel as the embodiment of the Jewish people everywhere.” Which is Zionism 101. But it’s an “absurd” claim, Goldberg said, especially in light of Israel’s embrace of fascistic European leaders.

Helpfully, Goldberg noted the long tradition of Jewish establishment anti-Zionism, and the capture of American Jewish organizations by Zionism in the 70s.

In 1950 Jacob Blaustein, the president of the American Jewish Committee, one of the country’s most important Jewish organizations, reached an agreement with Israel’s prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, in which Ben-Gurion essentially promised not to claim to speak for American Jews. “Jews of the United States, as a community and as individuals, have no political attachment to Israel,” said Blaustein at the time.

Decades later, such a statement from the committee — or any major, mainstream Jewish organization — would be unthinkable. A consensus set in “that Jewish identity can be reduced to Israelism,” Eliyahu Stern, an associate professor of modern Jewish history at Yale, told me…

She went on to her main heresy: that two states is over, and people have a perfect right to advocate for equality.

Israel has foreclosed the possibility of two states, relentlessly expanding into the West Bank and signaling to the world that the Palestinians will never have a capital in East Jerusalem. As long as the de facto policy of the Israeli government is that there should be only one state in historic Palestine, it’s unreasonable to regard Palestinian demands for equal rights in that state as anti-Semitic. If the Israeli government is going to treat a Palestinian state as a ridiculous pipe dream, the rest of us can’t act as if such a state is the only legitimate goal of Palestinian activism.

She concluded by saying that today’s Zionism is incompatible with liberalism.

[P]eople with an uncompromising commitment to pluralistic democracy will necessarily be critics of contemporary Israel.

The blow here is that Goldberg is in a stable of Jewish NYT columnists almost all of whom advocate unceasingly for Israel on its terms. She has struck out on her own, and while her arguments won’t be original for our readers, they are for the Times. Interestingly, J Street did not retweet Goldberg’s column, though Goldberg has appeared there. So her piece is an apostasy; and it affirms the fact that J Street is the new AIPAC of the Democratic Party.

Bret Stephens’s response in the Times was unhinged. He said with his usual sniggering tone that anti-Zionists are fostering child murder by Hezbollah.

Israelis experience anti-Zionism in a different way than, say, readers of The New York Review of Books: not as a bold sally in the world of ideas, but as a looming menace to their earthly existence, held at bay only through force of arms…

When you find yourself on the same side as Hassan Nasrallah, Louis Farrakhan and David Duke on the question of a country’s right to exist, it’s time to re-examine every opinion you hold.

Jonathan Greenblatt of the ADL promptly sided with Stephens:

Strongly agree w/@BretStephensNYT who addresses not abstract theory, but the actual reality that we see in our work monitoring hate around world: anti-Zionism *is* anti-Semitism. It’s fine to question Israeli policy but it crosses a line when you seek to destroy the Jewish state.

Once again, Greenblatt is arguing that white nationalists and anti-Zionist progressives are two sides of the same coin. And Michelle Goldberg is saying, that’s horsesh*t.

Goldberg is poised to have a leadership role here; because the public is demanding support for equality in one state. They want mainstream journalists to be their voices. Let’s go back to Telhami. Here’s what he said on NPR about the news his poll represents:

[A] few years back, we started seeing a decline in the two-state solution support and a rise in the one-state solution, but still, the two-state solution way ahead. This is the first time where we find roughly the same number of people who support two states also support one-state.

One headline is the American public, especially Democrats, are really far from where the mainstream media is and congressional politicians are on this issue. Second, there’s no question in my mind that there is a rising interest in the one-state solution. There’s many reasons for it, in part, because it’s been legitimized from both left and right, to be honest, including this administration, the right in Israel as well as not just the left but also because of a creeping recognition that maybe two states are not possible.

And many people, particularly on the left, worry that advocating the two-state, even if they want it, is if it’s not possible anymore, it’s in a way legitimizing the status quo that they see as unjust.

That support is across the board, by the way. Democrats still favor two-states by 48 to 36 percent, but Republicans favor a one-state solution over a two-state solution by 33 to 24 percent.

Telhami told me via Twitter that the Democratic numbers seem to reflect the fact that two states is “a highly stressed issue among Democratic politicians,” from Beto to Bernie. And as for the Republican support for one states, that “seems to be a principled position related to commitment to equality.” (Telhami says that when he drills down into the youthful (18-34-year-old) support for one-state, it’s 38% of young Republicans, 43% of young Democrats and– are you sitting down– 46% of young Independents.)

So there you have it. The two-state discourse, the faith of the liberal establishment for the last 20 years, is a wreck.

Thereby fulfilling ten-year-old prophecies of Ali Abuminah, and of Howard Kohr. It was in ’09 that Kohr, the head of AIPAC, gave a fearful barnburner of a speech, on the “Predicate for Abandonment”, saying that the delegitimizers and BDS’ers were taking over the campuses, and Brooklyn and Berkeley and Brookline, but we are going to hold out in the castle of Washington and set the moat on fire, etc…

What we are witnessing is something more than simple defamation. What we are witnessing is the attemped delegitimization of Israel—the systematic sowing of doubt, that Israel is a nation that has forfeited the world’s concern, a nation whose actions are in the strict meaning of the term, indefensible…

I am not saying that these allegations have become accepted. But they have become acceptable. More and more they are invading mainstream discourse… These voices are laying the predicate for abandonment.

Well, that is what has come to pass. The delegitimizers are taking over the progressive discourse. Americans prefer a democratic state to a Jewish state. The lobby is holding on to Capitol Hill and the official media. But progressives are climbing the castle walls…

Thanks to Scott Roth, Adam Horowitz, James North, Yakov Hirsch, and Nada Elia.

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About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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131 Responses

  1. eljay
    eljay on December 18, 2018, 1:41 pm

    … Bret Stephens’s response in the Times was unhinged. … Jonathan Greenblatt of the ADL promptly sided with Stephens …

    Stephens and Greenblatt are typical Zionist hypocrites who believe that the religion-based identity of Jewish grants to those who choose to hold it the right:
    – to a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine; and
    – to do unto others acts of injustice and immorality they would not have others do unto them.

    Anti-spousal abuse *is* anti-Samitism. It’s fine to question Sam’s actions but it crosses a line when you seek to prevent him from routinely beating his wife.

    • JWalters
      JWalters on December 18, 2018, 5:57 pm

      Good parallel. Especially if Sam has a holy book saying it’s proper for him to beat his wife.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso on December 19, 2018, 10:46 am

      @eljay, et al

      Speaking of a “religion-supremacist ‘Jewish State.'”

      https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/facebook-temporarily-bans-yair-netanyahu-1.6748097

      Like father, like son:

      “Netanyahu’s son says he’d ‘prefer’ if ‘all the Muslims leave the land of Israel’

      Haaretz, Dec. 16/18

      “Facebook has blocked Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s son Yair for 24 hours after he wrote a post criticizing the social media platform as ‘thought police’ and sharing previously banned content.

      “Yair Netanyahu blasted the website on Sunday for removing an earlier post in which he called for ‘avenging the deaths’ of two Israeli soldiers killed last week by Palestinian gunmen and calling for the expulsion of Palestinians. He shared a screenshot of the earlier post in violation of Facebook’s community rules.

      “Facebook deleted a post by Netanyahu last week in which he said he would ‘prefer’ if ‘All the Muslims leave the land of Israel.’

      “Netanyahu’s son has drawn media criticism for crude social media posts and a life of excess at public expense.

      “Netanyahu called left-wing organizations and politicians ‘traitors’ in a Facebook post last Monday. The post also chided members of the Israeli media and people who sympathized with Palestinians for acting against ‘Jewish interests.’

      “Netanyahu wrote that ‘Now finally this word is allowed, I’ll say what everyone in the country knows. Left-wing NGOs funded by foreign and hostile governments, the politicians on the left and media people who always side with the enemy and always against Jewish interests, whose hearts are hardened against victims of terror, settlers or victims of infiltrators, and on the other hand whose hearts are full of compassion for every Arab rioter wounded on the Gaza border – they are the traitors!’

      “In 2017, Netanyahu posted a meme, captioned ‘the food chain,’ featuring a photo of George Soros dangling the world in front of a reptilian creature, who dangles an alchemy symbol in front of a caricature of a figure reminiscent of the anti-Semitic ‘happy merchant’ image.
      “At the time neo-Nazi publisher of the “Daily Stormer,” Andrew Anglin, praised Netanyahu and thanked him for his contribution to anti-Semitism.”

      • eljay
        eljay on December 19, 2018, 11:40 am

        || Misterioso: … https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/facebook-temporarily-bans-yair-netanyahu-1.6748097
        . . .
        “Facebook deleted a post by Netanyahu last week in which he said he would ‘prefer’ if ‘All the Muslims leave the land of Israel.’
        . . .
        “In 2017, Netanyahu posted a meme, captioned ‘the food chain,’ featuring a photo of George Soros dangling the world in front of a reptilian creature, who dangles an alchemy symbol in front of a caricature of a figure reminiscent of the anti-Semitic ‘happy merchant’ image. … ||

        Zionism really f*cks people up.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso on December 19, 2018, 2:22 pm

      @eljay, etal

      Breaking news:

      https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-bernie-sanders-dianne-feinstein-urge-senate-leaders-to-scrap-anti-bds-bill-1.6762918

      “Sanders, Feinstein Urge Senate to Reject anti-BDS Bill: ‘Threat to Free Speech'” Haaretz, Dec. 19/18 by Amir Tibon

      “Two of the most prominent Jewish members of the Senate warn that the ‘Israel Anti-Boycott Act’ will harm free speech in the U.S.”

      “Senators Bernie Sanders and Dianne Feinstein sent a letter on Thursday to Senate leaders urging them not to promote a controversial piece of legislation that will penalize boycotts against Israel and Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

      “Sanders and Feinstein, two of the most prominent Jewish members of the Senate, warned that the proposed legislation, called ‘The Israel Anti-Boycott Act,’ will harm free speech in the U.S.

      “’While we do not support the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctons (BDS) Movement, we remain resolved to our constitutional oath to defend the right of every American to express their views peacefully without fear of actual punishment by the government,’ Sanders, an independent, and Feinstein, a Democrat, wrote in their letter, which was sent to Democratic Minority Leader Chuck Schumer and Republican Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.

      “Both Schumer and McConell support the anti-boycott bill, which is being promoted by the pro-Israeli lobby group AIPAC.

      “The legislation has been met with opposition from leading civil rights groups, including the American Civil Liberties Union, over concerns that it will limit American citizens’ freedom of speech. AIPAC and key Senators sponsoring the legislation have rejected these concerns by claiming that the bill will only punish large-scale companies that join the internationally-led boycott of Israel, and will not harm private citizens who choose to boycott the country.

      “The ACLU has warned, however, that the bill could be used for punishing private citizens, and would encourage states across the U.S. which have passed similar laws against BDS, to prosecute individuals for their political views on Israel.

      “Federal courts in Kansas and Arizona have ruled two such laws as unconstitutional over the past year, as Sanders and Feinstein noted in their letter.

      “’The courts’ reasoning in both cases applies with equal force to the national anti-boycott law,’ they said.

      “Sanders and Feinstein also warned that the legislation will create de-facto American support for the settlements, by punishing American citizens who choose to boycott them.

      “’At a time when the Netanyahu government is pursuing policies clearly aimed at foreclosing the two-state solution, it is deeply disappointing that Congress would consider choosing to penalize criticism of those policies,’ they wrote.

      “The impetus for the letter is an attempt several senators, including Maryland Democrat Ben Cardin, to include the controversial ‘anti-boycott act’ within a broader budget bill that must pass before the end of 2018.

      “If the anti-boycott law is not included within that bill, it will have to be reintroduced the next time Congress convenes in January.

      “Ever since Donald Trump’s victory in the 2016 election, Sanders – who ran for president two years ago but lost to Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primaries – has become one of the most active and prominent voices on Middle East policy for the party.

      “Last month he successfully led, along with Democratic Senator Chris Murphy, a vote challenging the Trump administration’s policy in Yemen.

      “Sanders has repeatedly called on the administration to promote a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and to work towards solving the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, which he believes poses a security risk to Israel.

      “Jewish Democrats are divided over the legislation, with a visible rift between mainstream traditional Jewish Democrats and the more progressive left-wing chapter of the community.

      “The Jewish Democratic Council of America (JDCA) announced its support for the legislation early on. ‘The Israel Anti-Boycott Act is consistent with the 2016 Democratic Party Platform that states Democrats ‘oppose any effort to delegitimize Israel, including at the United Nations or through the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions Movement’ and is also aligned with JDCA’s platform of opposition to global BDS,’ Halie Soifer, Executive Director of JDCA said in a statement.

      “The Anti-Defamation League also publicly supported of the law, although a recently revealed two-year old memo showed the organisation has debated the issue internally, with some of ADL leaders arguing that anti-BDS laws are ‘ineffective, unworkable, unconstitutional, and bad for the Jewish community.’

      “J Street, ‘the political home for pro-Israel, pro-peace Americans,’ has officially voiced opposition to the bill, on the grounds that it ‘would do nothing to help strengthen Israel’s security or effectively combat BDS,’ saying it stifles free speech and ‘erases the distinction between Israel and the occupied West Bank.'”

    • Yaakov
      Yaakov on December 20, 2018, 4:20 pm

      Democracy is – Freedom, Justice, and Equality for all.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on December 20, 2018, 7:32 pm

        No it isn’t.

        Democracy is a method of government. It may require or imply freedom, justice, and equality for all, but the core concept is some sort of sovereignty of the people. All the rest is (if you will excuse a bit of philosophical jargon) up for grabs

        democracy (Gk, rule by the people) In Greek thought, rule by the citizens in general (nevertheless excluding women and of course slaves) in contrast to government by the rich and aristocratic. In modern society the sovereignty of the people in general, expressed not directly by a vote on individual questions, but through representatives. Questions arise whether various mechanisms ensure that decision-making authentically answers to the people, or serves their interest (see also general will). The problem of delimiting a democratic constitution encounters these and other difficulties; critics suggest that political democracy is hollow unless accompanied by power in other spheres, and especially the area of economics.

        Blackburn, Simon (1994) The Oxford dictionary of philosophy , Oxford, Oxford University Press
        p98

        Although the root meaning of democracy is simple – ‘rule by the people’ from the fifth century BC Greek demokratia – and democracy is almost universally commended in contemporary politics, the ideal of democracy is complex and contested, as are its institutions and practical implications. Democracy is sometimes identified narrowly with majority rule (Hardin, 1990, p. 185), and other times broadly to encompass all that is humanly good (Macpherson, 1973), but neither view is adequate to an understanding of democracy as a social ideal. Majoritarian decision-making may be a presumptive means of democratic rule, but it cannot be a sufficient democratic standard. Other standards – concerning who rules, by what procedures, over what matters, within what limits and with what degree of deliberation – have from the beginning been implicated in the ideal of democracy as rule by the people, and continue to be entailed by the public aspirations of democratic and democratizing societies.

        The contrastingly broad identification of democracy with the complete human good is similarly unhelpful in presuming away increasingly important problems that have long animated advocates of democracy and their critics …

        Gutman, Amy. (1993) in A Companion to contemporary political philosophy, eds: Goodin Robert E. and Pettit, Philip. Oxford, Blackwell Publishers Ltd.
        p 411

      • RoHa
        RoHa on December 27, 2018, 12:47 am

        Now another couple of quotes about democracy.

        First, from Stefan Björklund:
        ‘För det andra kan man låta “demokrati” syfta på en idealtyp som innebär en absolut jämn distribution av inflytande över styrelsen.’

        Of course, as Björklund immediately points out:
        ‘… en absolut jämn fördelning av makt eller inflytande sannolikt aldrig har existerat eller kommer att existera i något samhälle.’

        Björklund, S., 1976, Politisk teori, Stockholm, Bokförlaget Aldus, p 89.

        (I said equality was up for grabs. Björklund has grabbed it.)

        The question is how closely a society approaches this ideal of equal distribution of power and influence. In Israel, it seems that Arab citizens do not have the same power as Jewish citizens, even though they are enfranchised.

        But Israel controls more than just its citizens. This brings me to Jonathan Wolff.
        “…democracy is, most obviously, a system in which the people rule: collective self-rule. This, then, is an account of what it means to say that democracy is government ‘for the people’ and ‘by the people’. The first item in the original triad—government ‘of the people’—seems a rather empty idea at first: what would government not of the people be? Anarchy? But the thought is that a democratic state has power only over the people who make up the electorate. Ruling over a subservient class, or territory, is claimed to be antithetical to the true ideals of democracy.”

        Wolf, J., 2006, An Introduction To Political Philosophy,Oxford, Oxford University Press, p 62,63.

        Israel does have power over people who are not part of the electorate.

        These two considerations, then, are good reasons to hesitate before calling Israel even a flawed democracy.

  2. oldgeezer
    oldgeezer on December 18, 2018, 2:03 pm

    The ultimate delegitimation was done at it’s birth and by the Zionists.

    There never was a plan for a religious or ethnic supremacist state. Zionists perpetrated that.

    On that vile crime they have built a history of even more vile acts and crimes.

  3. amigo
    amigo on December 18, 2018, 2:06 pm

    “Tlaib says she will wear a traditional Palestinian robe at her swearing-in, bless her heart.” Phillip Weiss.

    And bless your heart Phillip for that brave remark which no doubt will illicit the usual hate fest from the usual suspects who I am certain will be horrified by this article.

    • Citizen
      Citizen on December 20, 2018, 2:48 am

      Interesting. “Bless her heart” is also used in The South as the ultimate sarcastic expression.

  4. Ossinev
    Ossinev on December 18, 2018, 2:22 pm

    Perhaps someone should have a word with the Nicki Haley who is still living in and profiting from Zio Never Never Land:
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/haley-trump-peace-plan-more-thoughtful-creative-specific-than-past-efforts/

    Let me guess the “new technology” which she refers to. Could this perhaps be free computer tablets together with free 3D glasses and free ” Palestinian State” 3D game apps which they can can play to take their minds off the IDF Stormtrooper`s 3 am moral home blitzkriegs and seriously moral collective punishment home demolitions.

    As for this new eagerly anticipated(not) “thoughtful and creative” version of the US taking the piss plan. LOL

    • eljay
      eljay on December 18, 2018, 2:49 pm

      || Ossinev: Perhaps someone should have a word with the Nicki Haley who is still living in and profiting from Zio Never Never Land:
      https://www.timesofisrael.com/haley-trump-peace-plan-more-thoughtful-creative-specific-than-past-efforts/ … ||

      Without revealing details of the plan, drawn up by US President Donald Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner, Haley said …

      “Unlike previous attempts at addressing this conflict, this plan is not just a few pages, containing unspecific and unimaginative guidelines … It is much longer. It contains much more thoughtful detail. It brings new elements to the discussion, taking advantage of the new world of technology we now live in … It embraces the reality that things can be done today that were previously unthinkable … It recognizes that realities on the ground in the Middle East have changed, and changed in very powerful and important ways. … “

      I’m very proud of Jared’s plan. He’s got the longest plan – it’s tremendous, really very long – he’s got the longest plan and I know for a fact that my daughter is very impressed by the size of it. It’s a terrific plan, trust me, and it’s very long. I wish I had a plan like that.

      • pabelmont
        pabelmont on December 18, 2018, 4:36 pm

        DT: He’s got the longest plan and I know for a fact that my daughter is very impressed by the size of it.

        Gee. Longest and what a size it has!. daughter very impressed. Wow. If you get my drift.

      • JWalters
        JWalters on December 18, 2018, 5:59 pm

        The “new technology” may be biometric marking of all Palestinians so they can be monitored 24-7.

  5. wondering jew
    wondering jew on December 18, 2018, 2:55 pm

    When Alice Walker praises David Ickes’ book is this not precisely the blurring of antiZionist progressivism and white supremacism?

    A separate question: Has Mondoweiss ever said a negative word about Nasrallah? Even Gideon Levy considers Nasrallah a negative, but not Mondoweiss.

    • hophmi
      hophmi on December 18, 2018, 4:34 pm

      Of course not! Like most of the BDS community, they’re pro-Hezbollah and pro-Iran.

      • hophmi
        hophmi on December 18, 2018, 4:35 pm

        They’ll never call out Alice Walker’s over antisemitism either. They could barely call out Gilad Atzmon’s overt antisemitism. This comment section features overt antisemitism every day. What do you expect? THESE ARE ANTISEMITES. THAT’S WHO THEY ARE.

      • zaid
        zaid on December 18, 2018, 6:07 pm

        Very few countries in the world consider Hamas or Hezbollah a terrorist organization.

      • annie
        annie on December 18, 2018, 6:56 pm

        i like nasrallah. what’s not to like, he’s impressive.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew on December 18, 2018, 7:45 pm

        Here’s Gideon Levy on Nasrallah. I quoted him, so I’ll link to him.
        https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-what-does-hezbollah-want-1.6721786

        The Nasrallah quote that begins the bret stephens piece does not endear nasrallah to me. what do you think of that quote?

        if anyone sees photos of hezbollah giving a seig heil salute and no shiver results, i think you are so single minded as to be blind.

      • annie
        annie on December 18, 2018, 11:14 pm

        i didn’t find the quote but i will tell you what i think of gideon levy’s article. i think he’s drinking too much kool aid. the israeli government lies with impunity and some how levy is bent on this idea hezbollah is the agitator in this situation.. they aren’t, israel is.

        https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israeli-tunnel-operation-in-lebanon-enters-its-explosive-stage-1.6729435

        Israeli Operation Against Hezbollah Tunnels Enters Its Explosive Stage
        There is no wall or fence separating the Israeli and Lebanese forces where the demolition is going on. All it would take is one antsy Lebanese soldier to spark a fire that would be hard to extinguish

        keep in mind “the demolition” would be israel bulldozing along the border allegedly looking for tunnels.

        The army’s activity on the Lebanese border, which was initially described with some disparagement as a defensive engineering operation of negligible importance, is now reaching a more sensitive stage. After several days of confusion, it is clear that the Lebanese government has begun to formulate a response to the Israeli move.

        Lebanese army patrols are now facing Israeli forces in those areas where Israel Defense Forces soldiers are digging near the border. In particular, the tension is rising – and with it the potential for a mistake that could develop into a confrontation – in those “enclaves” where the IDF is operating. These are areas north of the border fence over which Israel claims sovereignty according to a UN decision.

        so initially there was just going to be some “defensive engineering operation of negligible importance” but whoops, they kinda got caught red handed on the wrong side of the border:

        In some places, the IDF has stretched barbed wire to mark the exact location of the border. But the images being published on the Lebanese side, for example, from the village of Meiss al-Jabel, tell the main story of the last few days; you can see Israeli soldiers in them, equipped with rifles and anti-tank missiles, while an Israeli bulldozer is working on the other side of the rock.

        why is israel up there doing this on the border and then acting like they are responding to hezbollah? that was on dec 12th, here’s dec 18:Lebanese soldiers prevented Israeli soldiers from unrolling a barbed wire fence in south Lebanon, pushing the soldiers back to the border,

        and it comes with a video. iow israel is caught trying to close off parts of southern lebanon so they can excavate and look for tunnels on the lebanese side of the border. and they got caught doing it.

        now lets back up to dec 4. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/netanyahu-hezbollah-tunnels-part-of-broader-iranian-operation-across-region-1.6719514


        Netanyahu: Army Op Against Hezbollah Tunnels Won’t Stop ‘Until All Objectives Reached’
        ‘This is not a limited operation, it is a broad and ongoing operation,’ Netanyahu says, adding that Hezbollah intended to infiltrate Israel

        so while levy is asking “What Does Hezbollah Want?” maybe he should ask what israel is doing? and get their bulldozers off the border and out of southern lebanon. lebanon is not stupid. it took them 20 year to get israel out. don’t go agitating and then blame hezbollah for starting a war.

        and they have every right to build underground bunkers or anything else they want on their side of the border. there’s more in these articles. i suggest you read them.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on December 18, 2018, 9:47 pm

        “THESE ARE ANTISEMITES. THAT’S WHO THEY ARE.”

        I think you mean

        “THESE ARE ANTISEMITES. THAT’S WHAT THEY ARE.”

        “Who” is for identification, not description.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on December 18, 2018, 9:49 pm

        “The Nasrallah quote that begins the bret stephens piece does not endear nasrallah to me. what do you think of that quote?”

        What is the quote?

      • gamal
        gamal on December 19, 2018, 2:06 am

        “i didn’t find the quote”, please allow me

        i will be brief and just so it is clear i will be offering no apologies for Sayyed Hassan

        brief background sketchy to but we all know it..

        after the French messed with Lebanon …

        ok so back in the day i think one, possibly French researcher thought the Shi’i of South Lebanon were a perfect example of Islamic fatalism, noted for their quiet forelock tugging ways, they were pretty much ignored and slotted comfortably into their subservient lives pretty much bottom of the social scale, no one ever thought much about them

        so then 48

        they received the refugees and then there were tensions and they found themselves much put upon and suffered severely from aggressive Israeli actions through to the Civil War, which was awful, then to ’82 and the occupation of the south and SLA Israeli mercenaries, Haddadists, the Shia started to form some resistance,

        their Sheikhs seem to have been instrumental in it, slowly and with great losses and suffering terrifying reprisals they evolved, then the Israelis Killed Musawi and kidnapped Obeid but were finally forced out of South Lebanon, after amongst other things stealing hundreds of tons of topsoil, from peasant farmers, committing many atrocities throughout these years and after torturing the populace horrifically and often fatally at Khiam which was abandoned in such haste detainees were still in their cells, there were scenes of joy as they emerged.

        so on to 2002, this two years after the end of the brutal occupation and at a time when Sayyed Hassan knew that another assault was coming and was taking all that fear and anxiety, fear of a vastly superior enemy unbound by any concern for Geneva conventions or by any norms whatsoever,

        israel turned one of the most remarkably pacific pious quietist simple country people into the most effective fighting force in the confrontation states, which 4 years after that speech they confirmed by defeating their oppressors on the ground, he was stiffening their sinews with things familiar to them in a language they understand and you don’t,

        in these circumstances policing his speech is ludicrous and 2002…?

        but more than that i would guess that while you are involved in destroying peoples lives, lands and societies that policing their speech for anti-semitism is in the circumstances an act of oppression, there is a lot else you would notice about it all save for your fixation on the evil of your enemies who are in fact your victims, this scam has run its course,

        No American and especially no supporter of Israel is any position to complain about Nasrallah’s speech, Israel loaded that venom in to his mouth when you imposed war on a peaceful community, it is incumbent on you to understand, that means all of you, Hizbullah didn’t go hunting Jews the “Jewish” nation attacks them ferociously in their homes, continuously violates their rights and occupies their lands…need one say more?

        in 2013 two women spoke to YME about Hizbullah

        Hezbollah in the words of two South Lebanese women

        Rola, 34

        “My name is Rola, I am 34 years old, married with three children. I taught social studies for four years and have gone back to university this year, studying English literature.

        “I am not a party member, and I have never been active in a Hezbollah organization, however I am a huge sympathizer. What connects me to Hezbollah is the cause we both believe in, the fight against the Israeli occupation. I believe that it is our right to defend our land and our existence. Hezbollah is one of many resistance movements that began in the 70s after the Israeli attacks on Lebanon. Hezbollah is a result, not a cause!”

        https://yourmiddleeast.com/2013/12/13/hezbollah-in-the-words-of-two-south-lebanese-women/

      • annie
        annie on December 19, 2018, 3:15 am

        after amongst other things stealing hundreds of tons of topsoil, from peasant farmers

        i heard this when i was there! that the israelis were sending big vehicles and literally stealing their dirt. excavating huges amounts of land. so weird. and sad. just coming in and stealing the dirt day after day after day.

      • gamal
        gamal on December 19, 2018, 2:35 am

        “What is the quote?”

        Does anyone, given the loony American Christian armeggedonists and the religiosity of the Zionist conquistadores not detect just a little bitter humour, or is it just me

        “But I’ll tell you. Among the signs […] and signals which guide us, in the Islamic prophecies and not only in the Jewish prophecies, is that this State [of Israel] will be established, and that the Jews will gather from all parts of the world into occupied Palestine, not in order to bring about the anti-Christ and the end of the world, but rather that Allah the Glorified and Most High wants to save you from having to go to the ends of the world, for they have gathered in one place–they have gathered in one place–and there the final and decisive battle will take place.”

        Nasrallah, supposedly, in oct 2002

      • eljay
        eljay on December 19, 2018, 8:22 am

        || hophmi: … This comment section features overt antisemitism every day. What do you expect? THESE ARE ANTISEMITES. THAT’S WHO THEY ARE. ||

        This comment section features overt Jewish supremacism (Zionism) every day. What do you expect. THESE ARE JEWISH SUPREMACISTS (ZIONISTS). THAT’S WHO THEY ARE.

        I condemn anti-Semitism and Jewish supremacism.

        You condemn anti-Semitism. Do you also condemn Jewish supremacism? No, of course you don’t.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on December 19, 2018, 11:10 pm

        Thanks, Gamal.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on December 19, 2018, 11:12 pm

        “I condemn anti-Semitism and Jewish supremacism.”

        Yes, but what about the important issue? Do you condemn the use of “who” for description?

      • eljay
        eljay on December 20, 2018, 7:19 am

        || RoHa: “I condemn anti-Semitism and Jewish supremacism.”

        Yes, but what about the important issue? Do you condemn the use of “who” for description? ||

        Of course…but only if it isn’t anti-Semitic to do so.

    • Danaa
      Danaa on December 18, 2018, 4:52 pm

      So, what have you got against Nasrallah? what negatives would you like MW to mention? why, is his diet poor? has he failed to give sop to veganism? has he never come out against GMO’s (very bad that!)? is he a climate change denier? is he secretly in cahouts with the neoliberal world order?

      Or, is his principal negative is that he opposed the Israel meddling in the ME, including Lebanon and Syria and was kind of effective in reaching the unwashed masses?

      Or, may be you think more attention should be paid to the fact that he is religious? and of the ‘wrong” religion? heck if you want to put forth a treatise on why religiosity of any kind is a negative, you’ll have a rapt audience here, surely….

      Oh, wait! I know what the biggest negative of Nasrallah is! it’s those tl;dr speeches! that’s got to be it! he stubbornly remains a long former in a world that increasingly embraces the shortest of short forms. No wonder he doesn’t tweet much. Those 140 characters!

      Now, on that last one, if that’s your beef, I’ll be the first to admit you may have a point. We need Cliff notes of those speeches, that’s for sure. To think so many of us have missed those pearls of wisdom all these years! that needs fixing, I agree.

    • Tuyzentfloot
      Tuyzentfloot on December 18, 2018, 5:42 pm

      Oh to discover to you astonishment you’re morally superior to the Mondoweiss antizionists.
      Recommended dosage at least once a day,

      • hophmi
        hophmi on December 19, 2018, 9:50 am

        It doesn’t get more obvious that San Francisco leftists expressing love for a Lebanese Islamic extremist who is actively involved in murdering Syrian civilians, including Palestinians. Of course you guys live Nasrallah. What’s not to love? He’s an antisemite who kills Jews! You’re anti-Semitism; if the shoe fits, wear it.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso on December 19, 2018, 10:03 am

      @wondering jew, etal

      For the record:
      In April 2002, the 22 countries comprising the Arab League presented Israel with a unanimously agreed to peace plan known as the Beirut Arab Summit Initiative (28 March 2002.) It calls for a full peace agreement between all members of the Arab League (which includes the Palestinian leadership) and “Israel,” i.e., full diplomatic recognition, normalization of relations, exchange of ambassadors and open borders in exchange for Israel’s complete withdrawal to the borders of 4 June 1967 in accordance with international law and various UNSC resolutions. (The Initiative also recognizes that minor, equal and mutually agreed land swaps may be advisable.)

      Acknowledging Israel’s demographic concerns, the Beirut Arab Summit Initiative does not insist on the return of all Palestinian refugees of the 1948 conflict and their descendants to their homes in Israel. Instead, in accordance with policy first enunciated by President Arafat prior to and during the 2000 Camp David Summit, Article II of Paragraph 2 “calls upon Israel to affirm” that it agrees to pursue the “[a]chievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with UN General Assembly Resolution 194.” (http://www.ruemsy.org.ru/d2005/en20020328_91.htm)

      The Beirut Arab Summit Initiative was also “formally accepted by the [then] ‘supreme leader’ of Iran, Ayatollah Khamenei. [Furthermore, Sheikh] Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah has made it clear that Hezbollah would not disrupt such an agreement if it is accepted by Palestinians [and] Hamas has repeatedly indicated its willingness to negotiate in these terms.” (“On the US-Israeli Invasion of Lebanon” by Professor Noam Chomsky, Znet, August 23, 2006)

      Notably, the Beirut Arab Summit Initiative has also been adopted by the Organization of Islamic States which includes Iran. (Akiva Eldar, “What will happen if Israel ‘defeats’ Obama?” – Ha’aretz, 1 June 2009)

      “…in May 2003, a conference of the member states’ foreign ministers [of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation] in Tehran ‘reaffirmed its support to, and adoption of, the Arab peace initiative for resolving the issue of Palestine and the Middle-East.’ Indeed, an information leaflet about the peace initiative posted on the Arab League’s official website shows the flags of all countries that endorse the proposal, including those of Libya, Syria — and Iran.” (“Why is Israel so afraid of the Arab Peace Initiative?, by Raphael Ahren, The Times of Israel, 18 June 2013)

      As we all know, the entity known as Israel ignored the Arab League’s offer of peace.

      BTW, worth noting re Lebanon and Nasrallah:
      http://www.zeropartypolitics.com/2010/08/ground-zero-synagoguelebanon-becoming.html
      “The Ground Zero Synagogue—Lebanon Becoming More American than America”

      EXCERPTS: “Should you expect the Lebanese to allow a synagogue to be built on their Ground Zero, in the aftermath of a 9/11 that occurred 5 years after ours and which, ‘proportionately’ speaking, was 30 times the size of ours?”

      “THEY DID.”

      “In the process of re-building Beirut yet again, in 2008, renovations began and have now been completed on the Maghden Abraham Synagogue located in the middle of newly renovated downtown Beirut in an area known as the ‘Solidere’ which has become the focal point and showcase of Lebanon’s rebirth.”

      “…this is an elaborate, ornate, beautifully designed, cathedral-style house of worship built for a Lebanese Jewish population that totals less than 500 in a country of more than 4,000,000 (in stark contrast to the eight million American Muslims living in the United States).”

      “Hezbollah leader Sheikh Nasrallah’s comments on the rebuilt synagogue: ‘We respect Judaism, just as we respect Christianity. Our only problem is with Israel.'”

      It is important to remember that (along with Syria’s Golan Heights) Israel is still illegally occupying Lebanon’s Shebba Farms/Kfarshuba Hills that it seized during the war it started on 5 June 1967.

      BTW, Iran has never threatened to initiate a war against the entity known as “Israel.” “Israel,” however, has frequently threatened to do so against Iran.

  6. hophmi
    hophmi on December 18, 2018, 4:24 pm

    “It is a challenge to liberal Zionists: you are worse than rightwing Zionists, because you dangle over the Palestinians a delusional solution that you know will never eventuate, thereby putting off any real struggle for freedom.”

    Just like an extremist to criticize anyone who exhibits nuance.

    Literally could not care less about what Michelle Goldberg writes from the comfort of her nice apartment in Brooklyn. And neither does 99.99% of the American public.

    • JWalters
      JWalters on December 18, 2018, 6:02 pm

      You apparently didn’t look at the poll numbers. Along with a mountain of other facts. That mountain cannot be hidden in the small crevices of nuance.

      • hophmi
        hophmi on December 19, 2018, 9:54 am

        The poll numbers indicate nothing that wasn’t true 20 years ago. If you ask a person whether they’d like chocolate cake or crackers, they’ll pick chocolate cake. If you tell them, well, we don’t have any eggs, flour, or chocolate; do you want crackers or nothing? They’ll pick crackers. The question is meaningless without context.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 19, 2018, 2:18 pm

        “do you want crackers ? They’ll pick crackers.”

        That happens a lot, “Hophmi”. Very often what purports to be matzoh is just a half-baked cracker.

      • JustJessetr
        JustJessetr on December 20, 2018, 4:35 pm

        @jwalters

        But what if those sacred poll numbers are wrong? What if Trump wins the presidency?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 20, 2018, 5:42 pm

        “But what if those sacred poll numbers are wrong? What if Trump wins the presidency?”

        As goes the Right, so goes the allrightnik

        Mattis just “resigned”.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso on December 19, 2018, 10:25 am

      @hophmi

      “Literally could not care less about what Michelle Goldberg writes from the comfort of her nice apartment in Brooklyn. And neither does 99.99% of the American public.”

      You’re fooling no one. You and your ilk are running scared. Like all fascistic ideologies, Zionism is headed for history’s dumpster. Inevitably, the long suffering Palestinians (the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine) along with Jews everywhere will be free of its curse.

      • Citizen
        Citizen on December 20, 2018, 3:46 am

        It will be a wonderful day when we Americans are free of the weight of Zionism.

  7. hophmi
    hophmi on December 18, 2018, 4:33 pm

    And you can cite the Telhami poll all you want; it is meaningless. It is not whether people support a democratic state. It is whether anyone is stupid enough to believe that one could or would exist given the region’s history. Any idiot can support an ivory tower solution, even one that would deny the Jews something Muslims and Christians have dozens of times over, something both religious groups have used to persecute their Jewish minorities. Heck, if Israel were in Scandinavia, the Israelis would probably support it too.

    What the poll shows is nothing new. It shows that most Americans support Israel and that they want the US to be even-handed, which is what polling has shown for decades.

    • annie
      annie on December 18, 2018, 4:47 pm

      do you think this is meaningless?:

      [M]any people, particularly on the left, worry that advocating the two-state, even if they want it, if it’s not possible anymore, it’s in a way legitimizing the status quo that they see as unjust.

      because i wrote about this very thing 10 years ago, that i didn’t think 2SS was possible anymore and therefor had a moral imperative to advocate equal rights. It is not whether people support a 2SS. It is whether anyone is stupid enough to believe that they could or would exist given the israel’s history of refusal to even offer a realistic proposal since the assassination of rabin. Any idiot can support an ivory tower solution.

      It shows that most Americans support Israel and that they want the US to be even-handed, which is what polling has shown for decades.

      right, but it also shows a growing american support for one state, which makes perfect sense since most americans rather like our own country, which offers equal rights to all its citizens. it represents an affinity for a model of citizenship and democracy we consider normal here. hence, a natural response. the US can be even handed while supporting one state. even handedness is not indicative of favoring 2 states, unless of course it was 2 equal states and we all know that’s not on the table.

      • JWalters
        JWalters on December 18, 2018, 6:08 pm

        Excellent response annie. hophmi clearly does not believe individuals have rights, but only ethnic groups have rights. That’s about two millennia behind the times.

      • hophmi
        hophmi on December 19, 2018, 9:57 am

        Sure, and advocating a one-state solution where Jews are likely to be slaughtered is also unjust. But you don’t want to confront that reality; it’s easier to hide behind a theoretical solution that sounds nice, even if the history of the region suggests something else.

        So let’s ask these leftists; between a two-state solution that may result in some injustices for both sides, and a one-state solution in which hundreds of thousands of people will die, which would you choose?

      • Marnie
        Marnie on December 19, 2018, 12:22 pm

        If you and your kind are so worried about ‘being slaughtered’, it might be wise to consider your ways and quit being such an incredible a$$ho!e, because god forbid something happens to a sunshine lollipop and rainbow kind of dude such as yourself, but you might get to heaven and not the other place.

        Truthfully, you and your kind only worry about ‘being slaughtered’ because that’s what you’ve been supporting wrt to ‘the others’. Nothing but evil here.

      • eljay
        eljay on December 19, 2018, 1:21 pm

        || hophmi: … So let’s ask these leftists; between a two-state solution that may result in some injustices for both sides, and a one-state solution in which hundreds of thousands of people will die, which would you choose? ||

        I choose the two-state solution comprising two secular and democratic states – Israel and Palestine – of and for their respective citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees, equally. No supremacist states – Jewish, Islamic or other – allowed.

        No Zionist – not one – will accept any solution that does not include a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on December 19, 2018, 11:14 pm

        ” a one-state solution where Jews are likely to be slaughtered”

        On past and present form, it is the Palestinians who are likely to be slaughtered. But you don’t care about that.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on December 18, 2018, 5:42 pm

      ” It is not whether people support a democratic state. It is whether anyone is stupid enough to believe that one could or would exist given the region’s history.” “Hophmi”

      Gosh, guess the jokes on the liberal Zionists. How could they have fallen for that Jewish democratic state wheeze. And for so long, too.

      • hophmi
        hophmi on December 19, 2018, 9:58 am

        In the entire history of the conflict, the number of Palestinians and Jews who have died is a tiny fraction of the number of dead Syrians in the last few years. So as usual, the only joke here is you, Mooser.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on December 19, 2018, 11:25 pm

        The Syrian war was cooked up and supported by Israel, the US, and Saudi Arabia, so the casualties of that war can be added to the total of the misery that Israel has caused.

      • lonely rico
        lonely rico on December 21, 2018, 12:44 am

        > hophmi

        So let’s ask these leftists; between a two-state solution that may result in some injustices for both sides, and a one-state solution in which hundreds of thousands of people will die, which would you choose?

        The question should be asked of the Zionists, who have already given their response in no uncertain terms –

        “The solution will be the one-state solution, in which hundreds of thousands have died and will continue to die, the key of course being the dying must be done by the un-chosen”.

        > Citizen

        It will be a wonderful day when we Americans are free of the weight of Zionism.

        It will be wonderful day when the whole world is free from the scourge of Zionism.

    • bcg
      bcg on December 18, 2018, 6:51 pm

      @Hophmi: I am mystified. I happen to believe astrology is meaningless, but I don’t go on the comments sections of astrology websites and point out how meaningless it is. Would that make any sense?

      • hophmi
        hophmi on December 19, 2018, 9:59 am

        More sense than your stupid comment, bcg. We’re discussing the Telhami poll. My comment is about that. Try to keep up.

    • eljay
      eljay on December 18, 2018, 8:27 pm

      || hophmi: … It is not whether people support a democratic state. It is whether anyone is stupid enough to believe that one could or would exist given the region’s history. … ||

      You’re absolutely right: No-one is stupid enough to believe that such as thing as a “Jewish and democratic” state could or would exist in the Middle East given the region’s history.

      Thank you, hophmi, for making that point so perfectly.

      • hophmi
        hophmi on December 19, 2018, 10:00 am

        And yet, Eljay, Jewish and democratic is exactly what Israel is.

      • eljay
        eljay on December 19, 2018, 11:14 am

        || hophmi: And yet, Eljay, Jewish and democratic is exactly what Israel is. ||

        So now you’re saying that it’s not at all stupid to believe that a democratic state could or would exist given the region’s history. Interesting.

      • Marnie
        Marnie on December 19, 2018, 12:30 pm

        ‘And yet, Eljay, Jewish and democratic is exactly what Israel is.’

        PROVE IT! israel is jewish and democratic? Since when? There’s millions of people who would disagree with you (the one’s you’re scared shitless of for starters). israel is a ‘democracy’ is not a fact, it’s a slogan to toss out to stupid evangelicals and congress to look more attractive, like ‘would I lie to you?’ Yes you would and all the damn time.

        Your comment has gotta be worth at least 4 Pinocchios. What a maroon! Another thing you have in common with mushroom dick in the white house is when reality comes crashing down, he doubles and triples down on his lies and the tweets come faster and more furious, kind of like yourself hophni.

      • John O
        John O on December 19, 2018, 1:45 pm

        @hophmi “And yet, Eljay, Jewish and democratic is exactly what Israel is.”

        Israel is in much the same position as Northern Ireland once was. Everyone had a vote but, with political parties formed mainly on tribal lines, the bigger tribe always won. This was nominally democratic, but more aptly defined as the tyranny of the majority. Its mirror image was South Africa, where the ruling minority knew that the moment they granted the vote to the disenfranchised majority, their rule was finished. Eventually they had to face up to reality and relinquish power for justice. Similarly, and especially with the mess Brexit is creating in the UK, Northern Ireland is moving inexorably towards reunion with the Republic, as demographics change and sensible folks know which side their bread is buttered. Israel is no different. Sooner or later, its pretense that its non-Jewish minority have equal democratic rights will fail the test of reality. And this is to say nothing about Israel’s treatment of non-Israelis in the West Bank and Gaza.

      • mondonut
        mondonut on December 19, 2018, 1:57 pm

        @Marnie PROVE IT! israel is jewish and democratic? Since when?

        I doubt anyone could prove it to your satisfaction., but nonetheless Israel is a parliamentary democracy by definition and practice. The only thing close to proof to offer is the well respected Economist Democracy Index of 2017. Israel is ranked 30th overall and is in the Flawed Democracy category along with several European countries.

      • John O
        John O on December 19, 2018, 3:01 pm

        @mondonut

        In the EIU’s [Economist Intelligence Unit] democracy index for 2017, Israel is joint bottom among the “flawed democracy” group for civil liberties, alongside Tunisia. Worth pondering.

      • amigo
        amigo on December 19, 2018, 3:28 pm

        “Israel is ranked 30th overall and is in the Flawed Democracy category along with several European countries.”mondonutter

        Whoopsiedoo .

        Read the article at the link provided below.

        “In other words, if it weren’t for the Chief Rabbinate’s hegemony and the way Israel treats its non-Jewish minorities, especially the Palestinians, it would be a model democracy. But based on civil liberties alone, Israel has no right to call itself a democracy, even a flawed one.

        Israel’s defenders will note that no allowances are made for the fact that Israel is surrounded by autocracies and that in its geographic group of the Middle East and North Africa it by far beats the rest, even in civil liberties. (With the exception of Tunisia, which equals Israel in civil liberties but is well below in all other categories). But is that the company Israel wants to find itself in when it comes to democracy? “Haaretz

        https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-the-world-s-strongest-illiberal-democracy-1.5793036

        Ireland is 6th overall .If you want to be better than us , you will have to change your ways and start treating your minorities as equals .But if your happy being a flawed democracy , be my guest.One might expect better from the so called “Light unto the nations.

      • mondonut
        mondonut on December 19, 2018, 3:58 pm

        @amigo Whoopsiedoo. Read the article at the link provided below.

        Whoops indeed linking to behind a paywall. But from what you quote, democracies are not based on civil liberties alone, so nothing you have provided disputes the Economist rank or that Israel is indeed a parliamentary democracy.

        I’ll just go ahead and add you to the “I doubt anyone could prove it to your satisfaction” list.

      • mondonut
        mondonut on December 19, 2018, 4:00 pm

        @John O, Worth pondering

        And does that make Israel not a democracy? Are you disputing the Economist grading?

      • RoHa
        RoHa on December 19, 2018, 11:29 pm

        Do not assume that “democratic” automatically implies “virtuous”.

      • Marnie
        Marnie on December 19, 2018, 11:58 pm

        @mondonut ‘I doubt anyone could prove it to your satisfaction’

        Not at all, just you.

        All the ziosplainin’ in the world doesn’t change the facts on the ground.

        ‘Flawed Democracy’ – a rank like that must account for israeli arrogance and that box posing as a heart in their collective bosoms to flutter with joy.

        israel is in the top 10 for failed humanity.

      • amigo
        amigo on December 20, 2018, 10:25 am

        “I’ll just go ahead and add you to the “I doubt anyone could prove it to your satisfaction” list.” Mondonutter.

        I don,t much care what or who you add to your list any more than I care about your beloved criminal Apartheid pip squeak Flawed society –namely , the Demonocracy known as Israel.

        Here is some more reading for you and don,t worry , you wont have to pay for this .

        https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/26/opinion/israel-law-jewish-democracy-apartheid-palestinian.html

        Or this.
        “John Kerry tells Israel it ‘can either be Jewish or democratic – it cannot be both”

        https://www.thejournal.ie/israel-settlements-us-visit-postponed-3162257-Dec2016/

        In case the general gist of this goes over your nutter , here it is.

        Israel cannot be Jewish and Democratic.One or the other but not both,

        Tick tick tick.

      • mondonut
        mondonut on December 20, 2018, 10:56 am

        @amigo, Israel cannot be Jewish and Democratic.One or the other but not both, Tick tick tick.

        And yet, it is both.

      • mondonut
        mondonut on December 20, 2018, 10:58 am

        @Marnie All the ziosplainin’ in the world doesn’t change the facts on the ground.

        So now you are accusing The Economist of ziosplainin’ ?

    • RoHa
      RoHa on December 18, 2018, 9:42 pm

      “deny the Jews something Muslims and Christians have dozens of times over”

      What is that?

      • RoHa
        RoHa on December 19, 2018, 10:28 pm

        No reply so far. Maybe hophmi has forgotten what the mysterious something is. Or maybe it’s a secret.

  8. JWalters
    JWalters on December 18, 2018, 5:47 pm

    Thanks for this excellent summary of recent, inspiring events! The problem with “the one and only Jewish state” is NOT that it’s Jewish. The problem is that it’s a bigoted, criminal, terrorist state.
    “Terrorism: How the Israeli state was won”
    http://mondoweiss.net/2017/01/terrorism-israeli-state

    It’s telling that the defenders of this bigoted, criminal, terrorism NEVER discuss the facts of the case, but ALWAYS attack the messengers instead. This is a conscious, intentional strategy, revealed in the suppressed documentary The Lobby on the Israel lobby, which goes inside the lobby and let’s us hear its leaders plainly stating how they use such dishonest tactics.

    How can intelligent, educated people ignore a mountain of evidence? How can they go along with such massive dishonesty? It’s well-known that a strong emotion has the power to derail reason. It’s also well-known that the Jewish community has been subjected to a thorough, well-financed campaign of instilling fear, starting with young children. Many articles in Mondoweiss have documented this. This deeply planted fear is the most likely cause of their gigantic blind spot. Such fear can also be used to manipulate people for ulterior purposes.

  9. amigo
    amigo on December 18, 2018, 6:42 pm

    Annie, If the US gov held an election on support for a 2SS versus a 1SS and 99% voted in favour of the latter , Hopknee would still claim the result was meaningless as most Americans support Israel.

    Hopknee like all zionists is incapable of dealing with facts that cause him to rethink a position he has held all his life.

    Reprogramming is a non runner.He would need a brain transplant and specifically one that has not been tainted in anyway by zionist ideology.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on December 18, 2018, 7:19 pm

      “hops is currently hemorrhaging frustration backstage”

      What a nudnik mind is here o’erthrown.

      • annie
        annie on December 18, 2018, 7:25 pm

        huh?

  10. wondering jew
    wondering jew on December 18, 2018, 7:57 pm

    In the long range there is no question that the Netanyahu Trump alliance has done irreparable damage to American support for Israel and indeed ever since hopes were raised under Rabin it has been difficult to see the direction that Israel was moving as in any way positive regarding the inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza, so this day might have been inevitable and merely hurried by the bromance between Trump and Netanyahu.

    I do not think it is a major issue for most Americans. I think foreign policy is probably 6th or 7th on the list of American concerns. Thus it is in Palestinian interests to keep things on the news, so that it will be on the forefront of the American public’s mind. It is in the Palestinian interest to make the status quo a source of woe and for that woe to focus the American public re: concern on foreign policy.

    A president warren or sanders would certainly change the perspective and if a democratic president decides to take the issue to the public, he/she/they could succeed. but what policy do you expect president warren or sanders to advocate. certainly not a pro hezbollah attitude. maybe that’s your heart’s fondest wishes, but it is difficult to believe that you have such an assessment of the range of political possibility.

    • Eric
      Eric on December 20, 2018, 10:02 am

      WJ: Hezbollah is a distraction from the core issue of Israeli Apartheid. An American politician who put his/her own country first would only have to advocate for equality of all citizens. No need to endorse Nasrallah or Assad or Netanyahu. Equality is what Zionists fear and refuse to consider, though it’s inevitable. No oppressive colonial regime can maintain power forever and Zionist leaders should attempt a transition to equality now, while their negotiating hand is still strong.

  11. Misterioso
    Misterioso on December 19, 2018, 9:02 am

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6z422l

    Short hilarious video: “Operation ‘Northern Shield’: Lebanon answers to Israel”

  12. ckg
    ckg on December 19, 2018, 9:11 am

    Along the same line as Goldberg and Telhami, HRW’s Kenneth Roth recently wrote on Twitter,

    Why are people souring on the two-state solution for Israel-Palestine? Because as the moribund “peace process” goes nowhere, talk of two states looks more and more like a cover for a permanent, discriminatory regime of control.

    The key word is cover.

    • hophmi
      hophmi on December 19, 2018, 10:01 am

      Many others would say that talk of two-states looks like a cover for Palestinians to compile weapons for a future war against Israel, just as they did between 1993 and 2000.

      • Marnie
        Marnie on December 19, 2018, 1:11 pm

        ‘Many others would say’ you sound like that fat rat in the cheese factory posing as president of the u.s. Actually you sound like the pharaoh who ‘didn’t know’ joseph and his family and decided those hebrews in goshen might just join the enemy and fight against pharaoh – and look how that turned out.

        The two state solution is as dead as pharaoh hophni. You sound desperate to make a point. What is it exactly?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 19, 2018, 6:07 pm

        “like a cover for Palestinians to compile weapons” “Hophmi”

        Where do you think the Palestinians are hiding the fighter jets, the tanks, the helicopters, the depots full of small arms and ammo, and the military communications systems and the weapons systems?
        Must be in the inaccessible mountain fastnesses and deep tunnels of inner Palestine, huh?

  13. James Canning
    James Canning on December 19, 2018, 10:54 am

    How many of the Republicans professing support for the “one-state” solution, assume that state would remain totally under the control of Jews? I assume most Republicans fall into this category.

  14. amigo
    amigo on December 19, 2018, 1:10 pm

    More trouble for Israel!!!.

    “Senators Bernie Sanders and Dianne Feinstein sent a letter on Thursday to Senate leaders urging them not to promote a controversial piece of legislation that will penalize boycotts against Israel and Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

    Sanders and Feinstein, two of the most prominent Jewish members of the Senate, warned that the proposed legislation, called “The Israel Anti-Boycott Act,” will harm free speech in the U.S.

    While we do not support the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctons (BDS) Movement, we remain resolved to our constitutional oath to defend the right of every American to express their views peacefully without fear of actual punishment by the government,” Sanders, an independent, and Feinstein, a Democrat, wrote in their letter, which was sent to Democratic Minority Leader Chuck Schumer and Republican Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.

    Both Schumer and McConell support the anti-boycott bill, which is being promoted by the pro-Israeli lobby group AIPAC.

    See more at (no paywall on this article)

    https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-bernie-sanders-dianne-feinstein-urge-senate-leaders-to-scrap-anti-bds-bill-1.6762918

    • James Canning
      James Canning on December 19, 2018, 5:33 pm

      Bravo, Bernie Sanders and Dianne Feinstein. Aipac’s effort to suppress free speech in the US is actually not in Israel’s own true best interests.

  15. DaBakr
    DaBakr on December 19, 2018, 1:19 pm

    As I read pw’s gushing assessment of our being de-legitimized it struck me how much of a bubble the MW community exists in. While Israel’s former arch enemies are slowly forming alliances, not to mention China, India, Africa Russia as well as the US. MW commenters are loving on Iran’s expansionist proxy nasrallah and his paramilitary state-within-a-state Hezbollah(which absolutely is a terror organization as they blew up Argentinean citizens and Bulgarians just to name two Hezbollah/iran actions along with holding a vast arsenal that Lebanon has no control over. (Hah, no irony there) and Europe is (slowly)waking up to how thick it’s organizations are enmeshed wth Hezbollah money and they are pulling back. And all pw sees is de-legitimizing victories against the state of Israel. Pw should come and celebrate with pink Floyd cover band in tv . Oh wait! They cancelled. Oh, wait again! They read up on the bds and decided to come. Roger….. Fuming.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on December 19, 2018, 2:22 pm

      How can anybody say Israel is “de-legitimized ” when a Pink Floyd cover band will play there?

      • annie
        annie on December 19, 2018, 3:21 pm

        mooser, the pink floyd cover band pulled out of the gig last week https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/12/pink-floyd-tribute-band-pulls-israel-shows-181209102115810.html

        oh, never mind i hear they are back on. and hears some BS if i ever heard any:

        But the band said it had canceled not out of ideological identification with BDS but out of fear for its safety after a flood of pressure by BDS activists.

        has there even been one band that’s been assaulted for supporting the apartheid state? they are a nobody cover band. like who cares.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr on December 19, 2018, 5:05 pm

        @mssr

        You can minimize pink Floyd all you like but then stay consistent and minimize the Roger waters. minimize soda stream. If every gain that bds makes is good news then every setback is just that, a set back. naturally, I agree with you that a pink Floyd cover band is not a very important geo-strategic subject and if it weren’t for the focus of mw I would not likely bring it up. Surprised mw did not jade a piece (note to editor: idea) on Natalie Portman mouthing off her far left opinions on how racist an Israeli law is. now that is a subject MW commenters can crow about. (Even if she does live in a bubble of extreme wealth where her families security needs are met by private round the clock security) pink Floyd? Nothing. Portman? Big time. There is you gift for the season

      • Marnie
        Marnie on December 20, 2018, 9:01 am

        Dab – there’s a ginormous difference between minimizing a pink floyd COVER band, and the real deal, Roger Waters, but then maybe you’re a Milli Vanilli fan and a real lover of the covers versus the real thing. That makes sense actually since very few of you are authentic anything, but pretending to be something they are not. At any rate, untwist your bloomers Dab, you’re sounding down right screechy.

    • annie
      annie on December 19, 2018, 3:30 pm

      can anyone explain this garble?

      Iran’s expansionist proxy nasrallah and his paramilitary state-within-a-state Hezbollah(which absolutely is a terror organization as they blew up Argentinean citizens and Bulgarians just to name two Hezbollah/iran actions along with holding a vast arsenal that Lebanon has no control over. (Hah, no irony there) and Europe is (slowly)waking up to how thick it’s organizations are enmeshed wth Hezbollah money and they are pulling back.

      hezbollah is not “expansionist”. nor is it a state within a state. nor did they blow up “Argentinean citizens and Bulgarians”.

      and what EU countries are “enmeshed wth Hezbollah money” and “pulling back”.

      and last i heard iran wasn’t expanding either! it’s hard to keep up w/the latest hasbara.

      • amigo
        amigo on December 19, 2018, 3:49 pm

        “can anyone explain this garble?”Annie

        That,s easy peasy Annie.

        overdosing on zioncaine/Fox News /Y net news /CAMERA /Hasbara Central and a host of other fake news outlets.

        Hope that helps to explain.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr on December 19, 2018, 5:14 pm

        @annie

        You want to play stupid? You want to deny that Iran had funded Hezbollah for decades and supplied it with thousands of advanced missiles to attack Israel? You want to deny that Hezbollah is paramilitary and not under the control of the Lebanese govt? And I suppose you want to stick to your own private hasbara that what Israel has accomplished in its border security is a vast expansionist conspiracy of the tiniest nation in the region while Iran, who has expanded its military to include Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Bahrain, Gaza and Lebanon is not a hegemonic expansion in the least. It’s just poor old mullahs looking to protect itself from nasty old Israel.
        . Also: you might want to look up proxy.
        . And ‘expansionist’ along with paramilitary and terrorist. I don’t care if you define Israeli actions as’terrorist’ as long as you understand the history of Iran funding Hezbollah operations.

        But yeah, guess I’m just a confused zionist without a clue about my neighbors or regional enemies. These do not include Iranian people but absolute do include the hardline shi’a mullah regime that has been obsessed with Israel (for no apparent reason other the regional domination since there has never been a strategic or geographic conflict between Persia and Israel) but yeah, I’m difficult to understand

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr on December 19, 2018, 5:26 pm

        “The last you heard”? Are you living in a shell? You didn’t read about kirchners deal with Iran? Didn’t read anything about the suspicious homicide of Argentinean investigator on the eve of his testimony on the Buenos Aires bombing? (I guess that’s all another mossad conspiracy to MWeissers?) And none of this has any baring on the palestinian issue except in the way it feeds on the bones of the palestinian people and enriches groups like Hezbollah and the PLO or Iran (none of whom display ANY true affection for the palestinian people and use them, steal from them and no, saying this does not make me overly sympathetic to their cause. Any palestinian not on PA payroll will tell you this.

        Didn’t get the memo the IRG has bases set up in all countries and territories mentioned? And you think Hezbollah’s military is under control of the Lebanese govt? I’d like to stay and argue but not knowing these basic facts is so ridiculous and lacking for a populist website devoted to the conflict in the Middle East it’s actually astounding. It doesn’t matter if one is violently opposed to zionism or not. There is nothing controversial in what I posted unless you are an Iranian citizen trying to express opinions and facts that are contrary to the official tyrannical mullah regime position. then you find yourself in Iranian prison with 100s of other journalists as citizens on trumped up charges

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 19, 2018, 6:25 pm

        “can anyone explain this garble?”Annie

        It means “Dabakr” knows which side he is on in the ‘Clash of Civilizations’!

  16. Qualtrough
    Qualtrough on December 19, 2018, 2:05 pm

    One of my proudest achievements is Hopfmi labeling me an antisemite. Given the fact that more often than not antisemitism just means anti-Zionist or anti-Israel (and more and more people realize that every day) I consider it a badge of honor. Thank you Hopfmi!

    • DaBakr
      DaBakr on December 19, 2018, 5:43 pm

      @q

      Most jew haters are proud to be known as such. Not unusual at all. And btw, at the same time the issue of being critical of Israeli policy and not being against jews per se becomes clarified so does the notion that a significant proportion of the anti-zionist movement is exactly as anti- jewish as they have been accused. Of course not all critics of Israel hate Jews. This is well known. It would be easier to write about more often if the actual jew haters hiding behind human rights issues were honest about their motives which have been exposed time and again. So, The sheet has been ripped off in both directions which, as they say, fresh air can not hurt. I’m all for anti zionists who don’t hate Jews to be given their due.

  17. niass2
    niass2 on December 19, 2018, 7:47 pm

    My Cousin the Rabbi is definitely an anti-semite. He hates Palestinians and is also an idiot. I told him a Rabbi” is a person that pretends genocide is ok and that god agrees. He didn’t like that very much. Who needs relatives anyways? Not I.

    • DaBakr
      DaBakr on December 19, 2018, 9:38 pm

      @n

      Just an fyi; although I personally prefer the more direct, “jew haters” it is widely accepted that the term anti-Semitism refers specifically to the bigotry and hatred of the Jewish people. Wether it should or does make any sense the term does not refer to all Semitic people. Using the word ploy here is almost surely understood but I think you will find I am correct. But you can totally hate your own uncle without any issues.

      • annie
        annie on December 19, 2018, 11:12 pm

        it is widely accepted that the term anti-Semitism refers specifically to the bigotry and hatred of the Jewish people.

        not anymore it doesn’t. or haven’t you heard the news. The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) has given it a new meaning and forced it down our collective throats.

      • Ellen
        Ellen on December 20, 2018, 4:20 pm

        Then use the honest term for Judeophic people — “Jew haters.” Anything else is obfuscation, false. “Anti Semite” is a wrong and (considering the origins of the expression ) ugly.

        Just as the term “Semite” to refer to those of the Jewish faith is not only false , but was coined by a Judeophobe to describe Jews of Europe.

        And most ironically adopted by the Zionist of Europe and those pushing for the colonization of the Palestinian territories.

  18. edthespark
    edthespark on December 20, 2018, 7:39 am

    If israel was or is or will be deligitimized when will it be legitimized again.It was once back in 1948 by the un and assuming that this is still the case why would a one state solution end legitimacy.Who will end it and how.Will the israelis themselves agree to a one state.Why would they when israel will exist from river to sea .israel will always remain a jewish majority state.Therefore there is no delegitimacy.That is metely liberal left wing fantasy

  19. dgfincham
    dgfincham on December 20, 2018, 10:55 am

    “The two-state consensus is now in a complete shambles in the U.S. discourse, and many Americans on both right and left are beginning to support one democratic state in Israel and Palestine, which of course would mean the end of what Benjamin Netanyahu calls ‘the one and only Jewish state'”

    There are already two States, Israel and Palestine, both recognized by a majority of UN member states. The only possible route to a one-democratic-state solution would be by a voluntary union of the two states into a single sovereign state, in which Israel and Palestine would continue to exist as largely self-governing nations, along the lines of the England/Scotland model within the United Kingdom.

    For more details of this proposal, please see http://www.religion-science-peace.org/2017/10/07/the-one-state-two-nations-proposal/

  20. Kathleen
    Kathleen on December 20, 2018, 12:33 pm

    Incredible piece…sharing.

    For Michelle Goldberg…better late than never.

    This morning on MSNBC’s Morning Joe Israel was mentioned by three people in regard to Trump’s latest move in Syria. Morning Joe, several others saying a betrayal of Israel.

    Of course no mention of the hundreds of thousands who have been killed, injured and millions displaced in Iraq, Libya, Syria due to Bush, Cheney, Obama Clinton PNAC’s foreign policy decisions. Only how this decision will effect Israel Ayman Moyheldin shared the clearest and most concrete analysis of the Syria decision.

    • Ellen
      Ellen on December 20, 2018, 4:23 pm

      Israel is freaked now and wishing for the days of Obama. At least they could control and intimidate him. With Trump, they are running scared.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 20, 2018, 5:48 pm

        “With Trump, they are running scared.

        So many people can be said to “own” Trump. But Trump’s got one wholly-owned subsidiary, Israel.

  21. JustJessetr
    JustJessetr on December 20, 2018, 5:07 pm

    What is the largest political body anywhere that supports a one-state solution? Any takers?

    • edthespark
      edthespark on December 20, 2018, 11:55 pm

      There is no need, as i said before israel is already a one state.From river o sea.That is the reality.Trying to compare israel as a one state country to a western type state is futile.Israel is in the middle east.Everything is a compromise between not one but 3 main relegions.Gaza and the west bank is under israeli rule.They send in troops anytime.Thats what makes it a one state.Force projection
      Jerusalem will be the capital.End of story.There will be enclaves and no go zones similar to westen countries.Majority rule democratic system

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus on December 21, 2018, 10:08 am

        “Eddes Park”

        quote- There is no need, as i said before israel is already a one state.From river o sea.That is the reality. -endquote.
        /paragr/
        Well said. That is exactly the problem and the only acceptable solution is ending that and making it Palestine again.

      • JustJessetr
        JustJessetr on December 21, 2018, 10:49 am

        @echinococcus. And what major political body anywhere is calling for that, a one state from The River To The Sea called Palestine?

        To keep giving Palestinians false hope when that idea is nowhere on the horizon is positively criminal.

      • eljay
        eljay on December 21, 2018, 11:23 am

        || JustJessetr: … what major political body anywhere is calling for that, a one state from The River To The Sea called Palestine?

        To keep giving Palestinians false hope when that idea is nowhere on the horizon is positively criminal. ||

        It is entirely within Israel’s power to:
        – end its on-going occupation and colonization of territory outside of its / Partition borders;
        – withdraw to within its / Partition borders; and
        – allow a viable two-state solution to come into effect.

        The fact that for decades Israel has chosen not to do so – the fact that for decades it has kept giving Palestinians false hope – is positively criminal.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus on December 21, 2018, 1:36 pm

        Just Jesse,
        /
        Fuck all “major political bodies”, and the horse they rode in on, too. They have no say in this.
        I haven’t seen any plebiscite by all Palestinians, including all Diaspora and excluding all invaders (since 1897, date of the declaration of hostile intent by the colonizer barbarians), in the absence of any occupation and any other collective duress. Until a verdict from such a plebiscite is available, the rights situation is that invaders have no right to be anywhere in Palestine, all of Palestine, and must clear out, including all their offspring –this, of course, doesn’t include those descended from legitimate Jewish Palestinians who lived there before 1897.
        Kicking out the Nazis from occupied Europe was total utopia in 1942. Criminal are those preaching that the Palestinians forgo their basic right.

      • JustJessetr
        JustJessetr on December 22, 2018, 8:25 pm

        @echinococcus. You only prove my point: how far has this demand for a one-state taken Palestinians? Pretty far if you count going backwards.

  22. JustJessetr
    JustJessetr on December 21, 2018, 12:09 am

    6 hours have passed, and nobody wants to be the first to say it.

    There are no political bodies of any significance anywhere on the planet that support a one-state solution. Not Iran, not the Palestinian Authority, not the Labour party in the United Kingdom, not the UN.

    For all the hatred and vitriol that this website and its peanut gallery aim at Zionists and Israel, the most guilty of all of harming Palestinians are those who sell them the crack pipe dream of a one-state solution. 1 state is absolutely nowhere on the political horizon.

    When my mom and her friends describe how they marched against the Vietnam War, and how unjust that war was, using it as a barometer for other unjust warrs, they all agree that they still never took their marching orders from the North Vietnamese. An unspoken brick in the foundation of advocacy for the oppressed is that you don’t do things that harm them, no matter how much they beg you to. Boycotting Israel and advocating for a one state solution only makes Israel stronger and Palestinians weaker. Does anyone think that Palestinians are getting stronger as a body politic? There’s your proof of what an incredible waste of time this entire project is. More criminal even than what you believe Zionism is doing.

    • eljay
      eljay on December 21, 2018, 10:29 am

      || JustJessetr: … Boycotting Israel and advocating for a one state solution only makes Israel stronger and Palestinians weaker. … ||

      The records shows that not boycotting Israel and not advocating a one-state solution only made Israel stronger and Palestinians weaker.

      So if you’re suggesting that the time for (not) boycotting and (not) advocating is done and that regime change is in order, I agree.

      • JustJessetr
        JustJessetr on December 21, 2018, 10:37 am

        @eljay,

        Your usual lukewarm attempt to twist another’s words has failed to provide a single example of what I called for.

        Thanks for playing.

      • eljay
        eljay on December 21, 2018, 10:58 am

        || JustJessetr: @eljay,

        Your usual lukewarm attempt to twist another’s words … ||

        As usual, you got it wrong. I quoted your words entirely untwisted, and then I said that *if* you were suggesting regime change, I’m in agreement. Since you appear not to be suggesting it, I obviously cannot be in agreement.

        || … Thanks for playing. ||

        Sorry that you had to lose…again.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 21, 2018, 12:02 pm

        “Thanks for playing.”

        I’ll say one thing for our Zionists, the are exceptionally economical. They have only one personality, and they all share it.

  23. Ossinev
    Ossinev on December 21, 2018, 9:40 am

    @JustJesting
    As in I assume that you were when you referred to “peanut gallery”.
    No of course you weren`t . Arrogance and dismissiveness are classic Zio traits very similar to the attitude towards non – chosen displayed by a certain political movement in Europe in the 1930s . Sorry that us peanuts have kept you waiting for 6 hours. You must have been close to tears.

    So here goes.
    https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/naftali-bennett-one-state-solution-peace-plan/

    Even Herr Bennett has called for a one state solution and I think you as a Zio would surely consider him to be a serious player in a political body -ie the government of the Ziocolony known as Israel. Oh wait though perhaps you would classify him as a “self confusing” Jew ?

    BTW I think even the most unhinged Zios would have difficulty arguing that boycotting South Africa and arguing for equal rights in a single state made Apartheid South Africa “stronger” and the ANC and native South Africans weaker.

    Bottom line is that you and your fellow travellers are the real”pipe dreamers” in all of this.

  24. JustJessetr
    JustJessetr on December 21, 2018, 10:44 am

    @ Ossinev. Well, you do have a very strong point that Likud in one form or another is calling for a one state. Frankly, outside of pure greed and stupidity , I don’t understand why an Israeli government would choose to expand its territory and bring on the additional headache of having to manage an entirely separate people without giving them equal rights. However, the only diplomatic game in town on an international stage is a two-state solution.

    All right, perhaps I can be more clear. Is there any major political body that is calling for one state solution called Palestine?

  25. Mooser
    Mooser on December 21, 2018, 11:56 am

    Israel “delegitimized”? Why, just yesterday Trump cited Israel, and the success of Israel’s Boarder Wall, in calling for his own Boarder Wall. Here is is:

    “….on a Border is only effective in conjunction with a Wall. Properly designed and built Walls work, and the Democrats are lying when they say they don’t. In Israel the Wall is 99.9% successful. Will not be any different on our Southern Border! Hundreds of $Billions saved!” Donald Trump, on Twitter.

    Now is that validation, or what?

  26. Ossinev
    Ossinev on December 21, 2018, 3:11 pm

    @Mooser
    I think Daffy Donald is in now in the process,in so much as he is capable of any form of process,of opting for a steel slat fence of some kind:
    https://globalnews.ca/video/4776771/trump-says-he-doesnt-want-concrete-border-wall-he-wants-artistically-designed-steel-slats

    Oh and he appears to have given up on his pivotal campaign that he would make those nasty rapist and criminal Mexicans pay for it:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-37241626/donald-trump-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall

    • Mooser
      Mooser on December 21, 2018, 4:35 pm

      I am sure Israel will consider it an honor to have its Jerusalem Wall be cited as the progenitor and successful example.

      “Taking to Twitter, the American president posed a question: “Does the USA want to be the Policeman of the Middle East, getting NOTHING but spending precious lives and trillions of dollars protecting others who, in almost all cases, do not appreciate what we are doing? Do we want to be there forever?”

      Of course, he’s not talking about Israel, yet.

  27. Nathan
    Nathan on December 22, 2018, 1:32 pm

    I found the headline of this article to be the most sensible thing that I have read in Mondoweiss in quite a long time. When you claim that “Israel got delegitimized last week”, you are admitting that before last week Israel was a legitimate state in YOUR view. I think that it’s a breath of fresh air to find out from an anti-Israel site that for these last seventy years Israel has been a legitimate entity. Of course, it raises the obvious question of why has Mondoweiss been presenting a case of Israel’s illegitimacy for years and years when in fact the issue of her legitimacy is only one week old.

    I’ll try to be a bit helpful. There is no such thing as an illegitimate state. A state exists or it doesn’t exist. In the case of Israel, the state really does exist. However, it was nice to hear that Mondoweiss has given its stamp of approval for its first seventy years.

  28. Stogumber
    Stogumber on December 22, 2018, 8:07 pm

    I admit that Jewish nationalism may be at the brink of collapse.
    But the more I look at the alternatives, the more I’m convinced that they will probably be even worse.

    I mean, nationalists – Jewish or other – accept at least that they ony rule in one particular, confined space. Their opponents – Jewish or other antinationalists – are unsatisfied with nationalism because it is too restrictive for them: they want to rule over the whole world, to impress their values and ideals on the whole world. They don’t accept any place beneath them.

  29. Mooser
    Mooser on December 22, 2018, 8:52 pm

    ” There is no such thing as an illegitimate state. A state exists or it doesn’t exist. In the case of Israel, the state really does exist.”

    And states never collapse, fail chaotically, and cease to exist. Not once. Once you call yourself a “state” you’re golden.

  30. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan on December 26, 2018, 9:54 pm

    The US is changing as the white majority shrinks. Israel is a shonda. Likud turned the country into an Islamophobic cesspit. Muslims are respected elsewhere in the OECD
    From Twitter
    1. Haaretz
    Netanyahu’s son says he’d ‘prefer’ if ‘all the Muslims leave the land of Israel

    2. Some Zionist putz

    vale וַלֶרִיָה

    @chibatzion
    ·
    1h

    Replying to
    @DailyMirror
    She’s THE QUEEN!! Why Muslim immigrants will not take refuge with their billionaires brothers the sultans and sheikhs? Complain about their gold cars, walls, toillets, whatever! May the “refugees” migrate to Arab Emirates, invade Dubai and Abu Dhabi and don’t bother the Queen! « 

    Israeli Jewish identity is built on hate, a long way from Tikkun Olam.

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