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A message of encouragement for the ‘self-haters’

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It is not often that I write about the inner struggles of those Jews who oppose Zionism. There is an unwritten rule of solidarity that as a privileged person, you do not indulge too much in your own problems and struggles, since the struggle you support is incomparably greater, and it would be wrong to weaken it by drawing too much attention to yourself, in what would appear to be self-pity.

I take that notion seriously. Yet it occurs to me, that when you regularly write in support of the Palestinian cause, it can, once in a while, be talked about. I also think that reflections about such matters can be important, to strengthen those thousands of people who are in a situation which I am familiar with – they are societal outcasts because they challenge a Zionist orthodoxy that has become a kind of essence of life in their society, in their family – or they are considering breaking out, but are concerned about the consequences. I want to encourage and support these people.

Jews are generally privileged today, especially in the West. As Norman Finkelstein says, being a Jew in western Europe, Canada, and the U.S. “opens many doors and it closes none.”

But Zionist thinking generally posits that this is but a temporary state. And they’re saying that the Jewish State has to be preserved no matter what, as an ‘insurance policy. Thus any questioning of the Jewish State’s policy that goes beyond soft critique, not to mention questioning of its raison d’etre, is reflexively seen as “delegitimization”.  The fight against “delegitimization” has been headed by centrist politicians such as Tzipi Livni (now head of opposition).

“The threat of delegitimization intensifies other threats facing Israel, and limits our ability to protect ourselves,”

Livni said at a conference in 2010, held by her former Kadima party in cooperation with the Interdisciplinary Center in Herzliya.

“Israel’s missiles, tanks and excellent fighters can’t properly protect the State of Israel if their hands are tied behind their backs.”… “The international community can tie the soldiers’ hands behind their backs,”

she continued.

“I hear talk of anti-Semitism, of Israel not having a right to exist – but we can’t take the easy way out and say ‘the whole world is against us’ and that there’s nothing to be done.”

Thus, Israel treats the notion of “delegitimization” as an existential threat. As the ‘threat’ of delegitimization often comes from civil organizations who seek to press Israel to comply with international law through non-violent democratic means, as is the case with the movement for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS), Israel has come to approach this ‘threat’ in a manner resembling a military operation: Secretive ‘black-op’ type operations, yet often applying what is called ‘lawfare’ in various countries, with the involvement of the highest Israeli authorities, yet designed to leave no ‘fingerprint’ of the state.

Since 2015, there is a whole ministry invested with this goal, the Ministry of Strategic Affairs and Public Diplomacy headed by Gilad Erdan. “Public diplomacy” is simply Hasbara in the Israeli and official name version of the Ministry, but Israel generally avoids using the full name in Hebrew or English, obviously to avoid drawing attention to its obvious and central Hasbara function, which today is widely known as Zionist propaganda. And it is no coincidence that Strategic Affairs and Hasbara go together in one office – Israel is treating the “delegitimization” notion as a strategic threat, and it is essentially applying Hasbara as the weapon against it.

As Zionism stands at the core of Hasbara and Israel’s “fight for legitimacy”, those Jewish non-Zionists and anti-Zionists are inevitably seen as traitors in Israel’s wars. Kind of like war-deserters, or even worse, traitors who cross to enemy lines in order to fight with the enemy.

But is this “enemy” necessarily Palestinian? Had the Zionists colonized another place, resistance to this colonialist venture would no doubt  have been the case anywhere else. That is, that Palestinian opposition to Zionist colonialism is not rooted in some primordial anti-Semitic sentiments that these people harbor for Jews, but is rather a response, an inevitable response, to colonization.

Yet Zionism seeks to erase this logical notion from existence. If Palestinian resistance (which it generally frames as “terror”) is a mere response to colonization, then the Zionists cannot hold the role of the good guys in this ‘clash of civilizations’, and this would be “delegitimization” of the Zionist venture. This is the mechanism of denial, which is a central part of Israel’s propaganda in service to its colonialist venture, indeed also in our times.

There is now a fast-growing support for a one democratic state in historic Palestine. The American public is now evenly split between proponents of a two-state solution (the classical ‘peace-process’ suggestion) and a one-state solution with equal rights to all. Both are at about 35%, and when the question is asked negatively, that is, if a two-state solution is no longer possible, support rises to two-thirds. In other words, the negative impact on the possibility of a two-state solution (which Israel has arduously worked to prevent through settlements and other crimes, recently with very overt support from the US), plays a decidedly positive role in terms of upping the support for a one democratic state.

But this one democratic state is anathema to Zionism. Not the “one state”, but the “democratic” – that is, the equality. Equality is essentially anathema to Zionism. That’s why a no-brainer law for equality (just amongst its citizens, mind you), cannot pass. Think about it – Israel has ethnically cleansed about 85% of Palestinians, so as to have a supposed “Jewish democracy” where Palestinians do not threaten the Zionist hegemony in vote – and yet it cannot offer them equality, not even that minority. If it cannot do that for the small remaining minority, it will certainly not do it in ‘Greater Israel’ (including occupied territories) since this means Jews will no longer be a majority – it won’t do it as things stand now.

This discussion, about a one democratic state, it is very much at the fore, and the idea enjoys massive support. But shock horror: this concept is essentially non-Zionist, or anti-Zionist – it means the end of a Jewish State. And the discussion is certainly reaching the mainstream media, even if its voices are currently a rather isolated minority in their own workplace. An example of this is Michelle Goldberg of the New York Times. In her piece from December 7th titled “Anti-Zionism Isn’t the Same as Anti-Semitism”, Goldberg wrote:

“The conflation of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism is a bit of rhetorical sleight-of-hand that depends on treating Israel as the embodiment of the Jewish people everywhere. Certainly, some criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic, but it’s entirely possible to oppose Jewish ethno-nationalism without being a bigot. Indeed, it’s increasingly absurd to treat the Israeli state as a stand-in for Jews writ large, given the way the current Israeli government has aligned itself with far-right European movements that have anti-Semitic roots.”

It’s almost possible to call this a revolution. A New York Times columnist has just explicitly legitimized Anti-Zionism.

Goldberg also portrays how this essentially anti-Zionist support for a one democratic state has gained its legitimacy from Israeli policy itself:

“Now, however, Israel has foreclosed the possibility of two states, relentlessly expanding into the West Bank and signaling to the world that the Palestinians will never have a capital in East Jerusalem. As long as the de facto policy of the Israeli government is that there should be only one state in historic Palestine, it’s unreasonable to regard Palestinian demands for equal rights in that state as anti-Semitic. If the Israeli government is going to treat a Palestinian state as a ridiculous pipe dream, the rest of us can’t act as if such a state is the only legitimate goal of Palestinian activism.”

For Israel, all of this talk about a one democratic state in historic Palestine is “delegitimization”, and it is essentially and existentially important for it to portray any talk challenging the “Jewish State” as negative, morally debased and illegitimate. Israel’s Zionist zero-sum game is about delegitimizing those who legitimize non-Zionism or anti-Zionism. If their views are delegitimized, then Israel’s Zionist message is respectively legitimized.

And that’s where this gets personal again. Those Jews who have come to question the Zionist orthodoxy, those who have moved away from it and those who have come to oppose it, they have historically been subjected to an ostracizing attitude from the Zionist establishment, which has to a large degree dominated Jewish life internationally, and is certainly still an established and almost unquestioned orthodoxy in Israel –  as mentioned, a kind of fundamentalist state-religion that all Jews are societally obliged to subscribe to, lest they become social outcasts, because in Israel, Zionism is the essence of life. Zionism has also come to replace the Jewish religion in many Jewish societies around the world. Goldberg quotes Eliyahu Stern, an associate professor of modern Jewish history at Yale: A consensus set in “that Jewish identity can be reduced to Israelism…That’s something that takes place over the second half of the 20th century in America.”

That meant that Jews who questioned or opposed Zionism were not only seen as politically radical, but as haters of Jews – anti-Semites, and since they themselves were Jews, they could be afforded the derogatory label of “self-haters”. The conservative Jewish establishment keeps drilling that into people, as a desperate scare tactic to deter them from venturing into that territory. Here for example is David Harris, head of the American Jewish Committee, in response to Goldberg:

“If anti-Zionism isn’t a form of anti-Semitism, what is? To deny the Jewish people, of all the peoples on earth, the right to self-determination surely is discriminatory […] And if the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (B.D.S.) movement isn’t another form of anti-Semitism, what is? To single out Israel, the only liberal democracy in the Middle East, for demonization and isolation, while ignoring egregious human rights violators aplenty, once again smacks of anti-Jewish hatred.”

I don’t want to sound too sentimental here, but that accusation from Jewish elders has been hard for the self-image of anti-Zionists. They had to rescue themselves from the mindset wherein they were self-haters – haters of themselves, haters of their ‘people’ (Jewish people), haters of their country (applies to Israelis), and so on. So many negative labels have been put upon these people, who were basically responding to their own conscience.

All that is hard to take. I believe that one day, after the Israeli Apartheid is over, many stories will be told by these people about how they managed, psychologically, to withstand that societal pressure, the exclusion, the defamation of their character.

Young American Jews deserve a special mentioning in this context. There are brave young people, who are nonetheless wary about acting too strongly against the establishment, against Israel, because of the flack that such people get. That’s what Elijah, Ariel Gold’s son, wrote, when he penned an open letter to Rabbi Rick Jacobs, the President of the US Union for Reform Judaism, asking him whether the movement cared that his mother was banned from Israel for being a BDS activist. Elijah actually got Rabbi Jacobs to say that his mother’s deportation was “both disgraceful as a matter of principle and a mistake as a matter of strategy”. Yet Elijah wrote that he does not want to be a BDS activist, because “BDS activists take too much flack”. They sure do.

There are other examples of such breaking out, such as the those who did Birthright walkouts this summer. The young people who walked out on the free indoctrination trip to Israel for Jews under 26, sponsored by Republican Sheldon Adelson and Democrat Haim Saban, certainly took some flack. Birthright took their trip deposits, canceled their flights home and threatened them, with lawsuits. Those who walked out may not have been that many, but they made noise. And this winter, Birthright tours are down in numbers by as much as 50 percent, no doubt thanks to these actions as well as the general campaign by the Jewish group IfNotNow to get young Jews to avoid the propaganda tour.

Not everyone wants to take on Israel so strongly. Not all those who want to take on Israel want to even take on Zionism, its founding and core ideology, its “fundamentalist religion”. But Israel, in its increasingly overt embrace of the ‘Greater Israel’ notion, is also radicalizing those people who thought that they could just oppose Israel softly and selectively. If there’s no two-state solution, then it’s down to Apartheid or democracy. And many are beginning to realize that Israel never was a democracy, just Apartheid with a veil. What will people do with notions like these? Will they risk being called ‘anti-Semites’ and ‘self-haters’ by airing them, by discussing them? Will they risk a total break with their former community and society? Or will they forge a new kind of Jewish society, one that the old establishment views with scorn and contempt?

I am sure that there are many Jews out there who have simply kept their silence about such matters, knowing that even critique of Israeli practices (not even mentioning of Zionism) in the wrong place, can have detrimental consequences to one’s reputation, also to one’s career. Indeed, I know such people, and I don’t blame them. But it appears that this is beginning to change. People can now begin to come out in the open, out of the closet. You’re not a bad person if you’ve come to question Zionism or even oppose it. In fact, you might really be onto something, and I want to be your friend.

 

Warmly,

Jonathan Ofir

About Jonathan Ofir

Israeli musician, conductor and blogger / writer based in Denmark.

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73 Responses

  1. Stephen Shenfield
    Stephen Shenfield on December 21, 2018, 2:22 pm

    Are people who care more for their career and ‘reputation’ (among whom?!) than they do for their conscience really blameless? If we want a better world should we not be prepared to make at least some sacrifice for it? What sort of world are these careerists leaving for their children and grandchildren?

    • Mooser
      Mooser on December 21, 2018, 6:19 pm

      “Stephen” ever since the 70’s, ‘As goes the Right, so go the allrightniks‘.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 21, 2018, 8:44 pm

        On the other hand, after the 2008 collapse, I noticed that the older generation had fewer weapons in the battle of wills.

    • Jonathan Ofir
      Jonathan Ofir on December 22, 2018, 4:48 am

      Thanks Stephen Shenfield. It’s not that I don’t think they should come out and speak out – it’s that I’m not blaming them for it. Your response rightfully poses the question of whether these people deserve understanding, rather than condemnation. I think it’s a moot point – if I didn’t, I think I couldn’t write this piece, with encouragement also to those who have kept themselves silent, partially or wholly.

      • Stephen Shenfield
        Stephen Shenfield on December 22, 2018, 2:13 pm

        I’m all in favor of understanding, but I don’t think it excludes blame or even condemnation. Or if you don’t want to blame or condemn anyone let’s talk about holding people responsible. I admit I get quite upset when I contemplate these closet anti-zionists. There are so many of them! I am not talking only about Jews, by the way. If they were willing to speak out I believe we would have a very different situation. Sometimes one of them says: ‘I really admire you for speaking out’ followed by some lame excuse for not speaking out themselves. They think they are complimenting you, but it is hard not to respond with an insult. In a way they are more blameworthy than many zionists who do not understand what they are entangled with, because the closet people DO understand what it is all about and despite that they refuse to take a stand.

      • Danaa
        Danaa on December 24, 2018, 3:44 pm

        Stephen, I think I know what you are talking about with re to the closet anti-zionists. I’ve had similar encounters and comments thrown my way. Sometimes I too get aggrevated about people not putting their voice where their conscience is.

        But the fear is also palpable to me. People are just simply terrified to speak out, especially if they are non-jewish. And that last one is what concerns me more than anything;

        how and when did this spiritual/political reign of terror come about? what causes multitudes (and I know – and sense – there are multitudes) come to self-censor, especially in a supposed democracy like the US?

        The answers to that question, I fear, are truly disconcerting, and that is what I think needs to be discussed – one of these days. – for each of us, with the ones we know and who showed interest/concern.

        Perfectly excellent topics to bring up around the dinner tables on Christmas Eve.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso on December 22, 2018, 11:31 am

      Let’s be clear:

      From its very beginning, decades before WWII and the Jewish holocaust, the ultimate objective of Zionism, a racist, illegitimate 19th century colonialist ideology formulated primarily by European, Polish and Russian Jews, was to dispossess and expel the indigenous Arab Muslim and Christian inhabitants of historic Palestine by whatever means necessary in order to create therein an exclusionary, expansionist “Jewish State.” The crimes its adherents, with the connivance of “bought and paid for” western politicians subsequently inflicted to this day against the defenseless Palestinians, are among the worst in modern history.

      If only worldwide Jewry had heeded the sage advice and accurate predictions of many eminent Jews and others of that era.

      To wit:

      When the Paris Peace Conference was convened on January 18, 1919, the majority of American Jews were non-Zionist. As a result, thirty-one prominent Jewish Americans presented a petition to President Wilson, which he brought to the Peace Conference. The signers included among others, Henry Morgenthau Sr., former U.S. Ambassador to Turkey, Simon Rosendale, ex-Attorney General of New York, E.M. Baker, President of the Stock Exchange, New York Times publisher, Adlolph S. Ochs and Congressman Julius Kahn. These learned Jews feared that Zionist influence at the peace conference might lay the foundation for the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine which they utterly opposed. The petitioners warned against any commitment “now or in the future to Jewish territorial sovereignty in Palestine” and predicted that given the Arab presence in Palestine, Zionist objectives would inevitably lead to a violent struggle between the two groups. In conclusion, they asked the president to argue at the Peace Conference that “…Palestine be constituted as a free and independent state, to be governed under a democratic form of government, recognizing no distinctions of creed or race or ethnic descent….” (Dr. Alfred Lilienthal, The Zionist Connection, pp. 739-746)

      Ambassador Morgenthau left no doubt as to where he stood on Zionism: “Zionism is the most stupendous fallacy in Jewish history…. The very fervour of my feeling for the oppressed of every race and every land, especially for the Jews, those of my own blood and faith, to whom I am bound by every tender tie, impels me to fight with all the greater force against this scheme, which my intelligence tells me can only lead them deeper into the mire of the past, while it professes to be leading them to the heights. Zionism is… a retrogression into the blackest error, and not progress toward the light.” (Quoted by Frank Epp, Whose Land is Palestine? p. 261)

      On August 28, the King-Crane Commission presented its findings to the Allies. The commission’s report stated that while its members were initially in favour of Zionism, they had no choice but to change their minds when they learned of the situation in Palestine and the nature of commitments the Allies had already made to the Arabs. The Commission concluded that the Anglo-French Declaration of 9 November 1918 unequivocally provided for “the complete and definite freeing of the peoples so long oppressed by the Turks and the establishment of national governments and administrations deriving their authority from the initiative and the free choice of the native populations.” The report also asserted that the resolution of the Council of Four declared at the Paris Peace Conference on 30 January 1919, which provided that the principle “that the well-being and development [of the peoples involved formed] a sacred trust of civilization and that securities for the performance of this trust shall be embodied in the constitution of the League of Nations” was to be applied. (Quoted by Sami Hadawi, Bitter Harvest, pp. 16-17.)

      In their report the commissioners also pointed out that the Balfour Declaration did not call for a Jewish state in Palestine and it could not be achieved without denying the “civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities….” The commissioners also found “…that the Zionists looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants…by various forms of purchase…” and recommended that “Jewish immigration should be definitely limited”, that “the project for making Palestine a Jewish commonwealth should be given up” and Palestine should be “included in a united Syrian state, just as other portions of the country…” (Howard, Harry N., The King Crane Commission, Beirut: Khayats, 1963; quoted by Sami Hadawi, Bitter Harvest, pp. 17-18.)

      The good news is that mainly because ever increasing numbers of Jews, especially youth, are realizing what an abomination it is, Zionism is now in the beginning of its death throes. “As ye sow, so shall ye reap.”

  2. Citizen
    Citizen on December 21, 2018, 2:27 pm

    Yes, Jews in Western states are well-off and privileged, especially in America. As not just Jews but Americans, consider: POLL: What It Takes to Be a ‘Real American”: “Treating People Equally & Being Responsible For One’s Actions/Ommissions”: https://www.voanews.com/a/what-it-takes-to-be-a-real-american-/4697740.html

  3. JLewisDickerson
    JLewisDickerson on December 21, 2018, 3:00 pm

    RE: As Zionism stands at the core of Hasbara and Israel’s “fight for legitimacy”, those Jewish non-Zionists and anti-Zionists are inevitably seen as traitors in Israel’s wars. Kind of like war-deserters, or even worse, traitors who cross to enemy lines in order to fight with the enemy. ~ Ofir

    Race traitor
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_traitor

    Race traitor is a pejorative reference to a person who is perceived as supporting attitudes or positions thought to be against the supposed interests or well-being of that person’s own race. For example, one or both parties to an interracial relationship may be characterized as “race traitors”. As another example, a person who supports affirmative action or other policies that allegedly benefit races other than his/her own may be characterized as a “race traitor”. The term is the source of the name of a quarterly magazine, Race Traitor, founded in 1993.[1]

    During Apartheid in South Africa, in which the white minority held exclusive political power, white anti-apartheid activists were characterised as “traitors” by the government.[2]

    Thomas Mair, who murdered British MP Jo Cox in 2016, regarded Cox as a “traitor” to the white race. Mair had also published letters criticising “white liberals and traitors” in South Africa who he described as “the greatest enemy of the old apartheid system”.[3]

    ■ C. VANN WOODWARD (1938):

    . . . The submissive loyalty that the leaders of the New Departure commanded in Georgia conformed to a pattern found in all Southern states after home rule was restored. “The ‘Solid South,’ ” wrote Henry Watterson in 1879, “is a reaction against proscription, attended by misgovernment, and a protest against the ever-recurring menace of Federal interference.” 25 Thus the new discipline was feudal rather than democratic. It was based upon fear—fear of the Negro menace, the scalawag menace, the Federal menace, menaces real and imaginary. As the price of protection, it demanded unquestioning allegiance. White men could not divide on lines of class interest, nor could differences over measures and candidates be expressed at the ballot box. Such matters were settled by the small clique that ran the machine. Democratic forms were observed, but their observance was entirely perfunctory. Party platforms contained nothing but such platitudes as all white men could agree upon. Incompetency and weakness in candidates had to be overlooked for the sake of white solidarity. Suspected graft in public office could not be exposed for fear of Negro domination. Ballot-box stuffing had to be tolerated when white supremacy was threatened. Such was the moral intimidation of this feudal discipline that it was widely felt that to scratch a ticket [i.e., to not vote a straight (Democrat) ticket – J.L.D.] was “treason to the white race,” and to make open declaration of independence was “an effort to africanize the state.” . . . ~ from page 57 of “Tom Watson: Agrarian Rebel”, by C. Vann Woodward – https://archive.org/details/AgrarianRebel1938BiographyOfTomWatson

    P.S. Birthright Israel Expands Eligibility to Include Trips for 27 to 32 Year Olds (Dec. 07, 2017) – https://ejewishphilanthropy.com/birthright-israel-expands-eligibility-to-include-trips-for-27-to-32-year-olds/

  4. Keith
    Keith on December 21, 2018, 6:40 pm

    JONATHAN OFIR- “Or will they forge a new kind of Jewish society….”

    Yes, a neo-Zionist society. Zionism without Zion. A psychological community of birthright peers providing communal support and camaraderie for its members while remaining ever vigilante for signs of anti-Semitism and other threats to group welfare and success.

  5. annie
    annie on December 21, 2018, 7:31 pm

    i read this and think how lucky i am to have been raised without even this idea of self hatred or accusations of self hatred.

    i read this and think how lucky i am to have been raised without even this idea of “elders” i had not even met in some global community i was supposed to listen to who felt they had the right to browbeat me.

    there was my dad and my mom, but just about every other adult (including my grandfather) i felt quite comfortable telling them you aren’t my parents don’t think you can’t lecture me. i don’t know how common my experience is or was, certainly people have larger circles than just their parents they feel accountable to. but this thing, that seems to have spread like a virus in the jewish community, that is able to corral kids and adults alike into some sense of guilt.. sad. deranged and sad.

    after all, it’s nobodies business but my own what i think of myself. likewise, it’s nobodies business but your own what you think of yourself. this accusation of self hatred is brainwashing.

    • oldgeezer
      oldgeezer on December 21, 2018, 8:36 pm

      @annie

      I grew up in a very rigid, sectarian, class based, society. Think the stereotype of old UK society except it’s not the UK. You feared adults. Adults were allowed to give you orders or hurt you. Nowhere near as terrible as it sounds but it is literally true. I think we ended up at the relatively same spot in a number of ways. But no, I never accepted it.

      I think it is brainwashing although not necessarily for the target. It certainly teaches standard excuses to those who support Israel. Most people know the kind of abuse they will receive and are self confident enough in themselves that they are prepared.

      I think that’s a side benefit of the self hating phrase. That totally avoids addressing the issue no matter what it is. I don’t think it was ever meaningful but it has become less so by it’s overuse and patently silly application.

      • annie
        annie on December 22, 2018, 12:10 am

        i hope so oldgeezer, i hope it becomes extinct. and i agree, it totally avoids addressing the issue no matter what it is. there’s other ways to raise kids. i got in trouble sometimes, i got punished. but my parents didn’t accuse of me of hating myself. they used words like self respect, but it wasn’t coupled with an idea of self hatred. why would a parent even put that idea in a child’s mind? ever. hatred wasn’t something we discussed that i can recall. i don’t recall ever even hearing this self-hating term until i read it on mondoweiss, but i may have.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 22, 2018, 2:50 pm

        “why would a parent even put that idea in a child’s mind?”

        Gosh darn it, “Annie”, if those lazy non-Jews refused to traumatize us, somebody has got to do the job!

        (By the way, I don’t want to ruin your view of us poor damaged creatures, but lots and lots of Jews are fully capable of say “GFY” to manipulative stuff like that, especially after the 2008 collapse.)

      • annie
        annie on December 23, 2018, 5:42 pm

        lots and lots of Jews are fully capable of say “GFY” to manipulative stuff like that,

        that’s a relief mooser. but still, the practice continues. this sort of shaming is not good for kids to internalize. the idea of hating ones self is a concept better left for adulthood. i remember when i first learned about depression. one of the neighbors committed suicide so i had to ask what that was. that’s when my mom told me about depression. she explained it was like being in a bad mood that didn’t go away. i recall having never conceptualized that idea before, that someone could be depressed day after day after day. i lived in a bubble of my own reality, little peaks of trauma that became resolved shortly thereafter. the only glimpses i had of permanent trauma was the occasional mention of kids starving in china (or was it india?) when i didn’t want to eat my vegetables. clearly, i lived a privileged protected life. that so many children have horror imposed on them at an early age is one of life’s worst tragedies. but to live a privileged lifestyle and choose to infuse horrific thoughts into a child’s mind at an early age, it doesn’t seem right. i’m reminded of that famous movie Life is Beautiful. now there’s an extraordinary father.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on December 21, 2018, 8:42 pm

      “Annie” percentage is more important than people. Who cares how many people are alienated from Judaism, if the Zionists can say “Judaism is 100% Zionist.”

    • Jon66
      Jon66 on December 21, 2018, 10:27 pm

      Annie,
      The concept of the self hating Jew is similar to the concept of the Uncle Tom in the African American community. A person who who is so interested in ingratiating himself to the dominant society or so full of self contempt that they reject their culture’s values and embrace the other without regard to the harm it may impose on their community.

      • annie
        annie on December 21, 2018, 11:53 pm

        ok, i guess that makes sense jon. the difference being i’m not routinely hearing the african american community bashing eachother with accusations of being uncle toms. maybe it’s going on behind closed doors and i am just out of the loop.

        and it’s one thing being so full of self contempt that one rejects ones culture’s values and embraces another without regard to the harm it may impose on ones community, it’s quite another being accused of it repeatedly as a way of controlling you. especially when ones community is engaged in immoral criminal activity, for decades. when one’s “culture’s values” appear to include decimating another culture, it’s worth exploring an alternate route. and that exploration is not driven by self hatred, but by self, or cultural, preservation.

      • Keith
        Keith on December 22, 2018, 12:21 am

        JON66- “Annie, The concept of the self hating Jew is similar to the concept of the Uncle Tom in the African American community.”

        What a ludicrous comment. Conflating the disproportionately empowered Jewish community with the disproportionately disempowered African American community is profoundly dishonest. What a pity that American Jews cannot switch places with American Blacks to truly understand that they are in no way even remotely disadvantaged, nor physically threatened. Quite the opposite.

      • Jon66
        Jon66 on December 22, 2018, 6:30 am

        Annie
        I think that if you were an editor at a website that was dedicated to the opposition to core values of the African American community and you were African american you would hear it a lot.

      • johneill
        johneill on December 22, 2018, 8:10 am

        is there such a site? please enlighten me about the comment culture there

      • eljay
        eljay on December 22, 2018, 8:15 am

        || Jon66: … A person … so full of self contempt that they reject their culture’s values and embrace the other without regard to the harm it may impose on their community. ||

        And yet it is Jewish supremacists (Zionists) – who reject their culture’s values and deliberately and unapologetically embrace militarism, colonialism, (war) criminality and supremacism without regard to the harm it may impose on their community – who accuse non-Zionist of “self hatred”. Go figure.

      • Jon66
        Jon66 on December 22, 2018, 1:00 pm

        Keith,
        Similar. Concept
        Not identical
        Your point is irrelevant to trying to understand the concept.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 22, 2018, 2:33 pm

        “What a ludicrous comment.”

        Thanks “Keith”. My absolute mortification renders me speechless.

        “that they reject their culture’s values and embrace…” “Jon 66″
        Jon66” why don’t you give us a few examples of self-hating Jews, and the actions they take to compromise the Jewish community in search of acceptance? And don’t leave out which “values” they are ‘rejecting’.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 22, 2018, 2:53 pm

        ” What a pity that American Jews cannot switch places with American Blacks to truly understand that they are in no way even remotely disadvantaged, nor physically threatened.”

        Oh, I think we understand it very, very well. As goes the white, so goes the allrightnik

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 22, 2018, 3:08 pm

        “Jon 66” I hope nobody is going to doubt that Zionist American Jews are like, really down with African American culture and mores.
        Naah, nobody would fall into such an obvious anti-semitism trap. Everybody knows we have no “Negro Problem”, and neither does ‘ours”.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 22, 2018, 3:17 pm

        “I think that if you were an editor at a website that was dedicated to the opposition to core values of the African American community and you were African american you would hear it a lot.” “Jon 66”

        That is one of the most monumentally stupid things ever said here.
        And please give us a link to that website.

      • Keith
        Keith on December 22, 2018, 3:40 pm

        JON66- “Your point is irrelevant to trying to understand the concept.”

        No, your attempt to conflate the dynamics of Black victimhood with Jewish myth-victimhood is dishonest Zionist hasbara. A Shabbos Goy is more comparable to an Uncle Tom, whereas, a dishonestly labeled self-hating Jew is analogous to a class traitor of the privileged class. An Uncle Tom receives certain benefit from his/her ingratiating behavior, a so-called self-hating Jew incurs the wrath of a powerful elite through honest critique. The term self-hating Jew is used to smear Jews who take risks to provide inconvenient truths. This is yet another attempt to dishonestly imply Jewish victimhood where none exists, and to smear folks like Norman Finkelstein by dishonestly associating him and those like him with the pejorative term Uncle Tom.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 22, 2018, 4:39 pm

        “The concept of the self hating Jew is similar to the concept of the Uncle Tom in the African American community.”

        As delineated by Harriet Beecher Stowe?

      • Jon66
        Jon66 on December 22, 2018, 6:07 pm

        Keith,
        Are you saying that anti-semitism doesn’t exist in America? That it’s a myth?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 22, 2018, 8:17 pm

        “Are you saying that anti-semitism doesn’t exist in America? That it’s a myth?”

        “Jon66”, you have seen what America can do to those peoples they did not wish to assimilate, right?
        . America is capable of making them chattel slaves, as with African-Americans, or denying their humanity completely, as was done with the Native Americans. We won’t even go into Hispanics and Asians and how America treated them.

        Has anything like that ever happened to the Jews in America? No. But this did. Who else got that assurance?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 22, 2018, 9:09 pm

        “The term self-hating Jew is used to smear Jews…”

        A comparison with the white accusation of “n***er-lover” is much more apt.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer on December 22, 2018, 9:24 pm

        @jon66

        Typical dishonesty. He said nothing of the sort. So typical one can anticipate it.

        You could actually try to address the issues raised instead of trying to divert the conversation away from it.

        As I’m primarily a reader on the thread I hope Keith declines to respond to your asininity.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer on December 22, 2018, 10:01 pm

        @Mooser

        Or race traitor.

        Racists are ever so inventive. If only they channeled it into something worthwhile.

      • Keith
        Keith on December 23, 2018, 12:46 am

        JON66- “Are you saying that anti-semitism doesn’t exist in America? That it’s a myth?”

        I am saying that the claim of eternal Gentile anti-Semitism is an anti-Gentile myth. Furthermore, anti-Semitism in the US was relatively mild compared to Blacks and other people of color. Jews were a small but relatively wealthy and influential minority in the US right from the get-go. Discrimination did not begin until the end of the 19th century when the Gentile industrialists abandoned their Jewish allies to ally with the Eastern WASP patricians, a consequence of an ongoing power struggle. (see “The Fatal Embrace,” by Benjamin Ginsberg)

      • Jon66
        Jon66 on December 23, 2018, 7:16 am

        OG/Keith,
        A shabbos goy isn’t Jewish so the comparison of an African American Uncle Tom within the African American community to a self hating Jew doesn’t make any sense. A shabbis goy is a non -Jewish person who is hired to perform some duties that religious Jews can’t perform on shabbis. These are duties that the Jewish person normally performs himself like turning on lights. I don’t understand the use of shabbos goy in this context at all. Are you saying that the shabbos goy is betraying the non-Jewish community?

        You don’t like my question about anti Semitic men. Can you define myth-victimhood

      • Jon66
        Jon66 on December 23, 2018, 10:46 am

        Keith
        Anti s was prevalent enough in mid 19th century that Grant could order his infamous Order 11.
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Order_No._11_(1862)
        A direct appeal to Lincoln was needed to reverse it. The question remains. Is there antiS today? Is the supposed AS today part of the same myth-history Does antiS exist today or do you think it is myth?

      • annie
        annie on December 23, 2018, 4:59 pm

        The question remains. Is there antiS today?

        i think you’re diverting. prior to this question there were other comments you did not respond to. 1. first articulated by johneill and next by mooser, what hypothetical site is there “dedicated to the opposition to core values of the African American community and you were African american you would hear it”? do you mean like a kkk site where african americans hang out? or possibly people like Candace Owens who hangs w/the alt right crowd?

        and this: A comparison with the white accusation of “n***er-lover” is much more apt.

        exactly.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 23, 2018, 12:52 pm

        “Or race traitor.”

        Exactly. There’s a disturbing aspect to all of this: Zionists are so dependent on non-Jewish philosemtitsm, they will gladly drive away large numbers of Jews from Judaism in an attempt to present a unified impression to non-Jews.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 23, 2018, 1:03 pm

        .” Furthermore, anti-Semitism in the US was relatively mild…” “Keith”

        What happened to African-Americans and Native Americans cannot even be compared to the officially proclaimed assimilation of Jews in the US.
        Has the power of Federal law or the US military ever been used against the Jews in the US?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 23, 2018, 1:18 pm

        “of an African American Uncle Tom within the African American community” “Jon66”

        “Jon66” would you mind giving us an example of “an African American Uncle Tom within the African American community”

        Please let us know “Jon66” who is “an Uncle Tom”. I’m sure just a couple of names would suffice, as it is apparently, a well-known and prominent type.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 23, 2018, 2:18 pm

        “These are duties that the Jewish person normally performs himself like turning on lights” “Jon66”

        But when a light bulb must to be replaced on the Sabbath, a minion must be present. Thus answering the Talmudic question…

      • amigo
        amigo on December 23, 2018, 3:55 pm

        “Has anything like that ever happened to the Jews in America? “Mooser

        Mooser you forgot to mention the Irish in America!!.

        “No Blacks or Irish need apply”

        I am unaware of any such signs being directed at Jews in America.

      • gamal
        gamal on December 23, 2018, 4:42 pm

        “you forgot to mention the Irish in America!!.

        “No Blacks or Irish need apply” ”

        and of course in England it was “No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs”, a Black Irish Dog being shit out of luck.

      • Jon66
        Jon66 on December 23, 2018, 5:08 pm

        Annie
        Hypothetical- Imagined or suggested but not necessarily real or true:

      • Keith
        Keith on December 23, 2018, 6:09 pm

        JON66- “A shabbos goy isn’t Jewish so the comparison of an African American Uncle Tom within the African American community to a self hating Jew doesn’t make any sense.”

        A Shabbos Goy isn’t Jewish and an Uncle Tom isn’t white. Who are the Shabbos Goys? I doubt there are many in the US because Reform and Secular Jews hardly need their services. So who do the US Orthodox use? Black cleaning ladies? Illegal Hispanics? And what about Israel with its large Orthodox population? Surely not secular Jews. Who is left? Palestinians? Fhillipino guest workers? In the US, the Orthodox are largely part of the white empowered majority, the Shabbos Goys the disempowered, usually colored, minority that needs to display a certain subservience to their employer. In Israel, the Orthodox represent the empowered Jewish majority, the Shabbos Goys the disempowered minority. Shabbos Goys are not the same as Uncle Toms, but the similarity in situations is undeniable, whereas, the mislabeled “self-hating Jew” is something entirely different as already explained but which you ignore as you continue to engage in pilpul to try to conflate Jews with Blacks to support you Zionist meme of Jews as a victimized minority. Gilded victimhood says I.

      • Jon66
        Jon66 on December 23, 2018, 6:13 pm

        Anniewiannie
        With respect to the other term
        My understanding is that people who use that term mean it to apply to whites who are too attached to blacks.
        Self hatred is a revulsion or rejection of your own culture. One regards your relation to others directly and the other as a consequence of your rejection of your own.

      • eljay
        eljay on December 24, 2018, 7:41 am

        || Jon66: … Self hatred is a revulsion or rejection of your own culture. One regards your relation to others directly and the other as a consequence of your rejection of your own. ||

        Rejection of one’s “own culture” does not imply “self hatred”. It can simply be a choice made for any number of reasons including:
        – a different culture offers more appeal;
        – one’s own culture has been hijacked by supremacists.

        But I agree that verbal accusations of “self hatred” make it easier to shame people back into line.

      • Citizen
        Citizen on December 24, 2018, 12:27 pm
      • Keith
        Keith on December 24, 2018, 1:53 pm

        JON66- “Anti s was prevalent enough in mid 19th century that Grant could order his infamous Order 11.”

        You can read my response on “Keith’s NO EMPIRE Blog”.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 24, 2018, 11:40 pm

        “Gilded victimhood says I.”

        As goes the Right, so goes the allrightnik.

    • wondering jew
      wondering jew on December 22, 2018, 1:45 am

      annie- I think two analogies could be useful. 1. a woman who is anti abortion might be considered a self hating woman by feminists. 2. a worker who crosses a picket line to serve as a scab or a strike breaker, might be considered self hating by the striking workers. In both these examples there is conflict, which requires solidarity to overcome the opposition, and these individuals are not sufficiently solid on the need for a united front.

      When the analogy is brought to the issue at hand: national solidarity or religious solidarity or immigrant group solidarity, the analogy would require the group to be besieged in some analogous way: the pressure to abandon one’s immigrant group and identify with the host nation rather than with the group that is the primary source of one’s parents identification. the pressure to abandon a religious tradition that views itself as separate and in opposition to the broader cultural religion. In both these cases the melting pot pressures are such that it requires solidarity if one expects/wishes/hopes to maintain the group identity in the face of these societal pressures. As such those who are solid view those who abandon solidarity as traitors.

      I think the pressures to assimilate were quite apparent to those who came to america and rejected the traditions and wanted to view themselves as 100% red white and blue americans, while some of their parents bemoaned their children’s abandonment of tradition. I think that the advent of Hitler and the vast catastrophe that befell the mother community back in Europe required a new solidarity to maintain Jewish identity despite this catastrophe or in defiance of this catastrophe and those who are not solid with this solidarity are not with us, but against us. Zionism was seen by many as the necessary response to the catastrophe and those who are not solid with this solidarity are similarly seen as defying the need for group coherence and adherence and thus the terminology of self hating.

      The primary song of Jewish identity, “Am Israel Chai”, (the nation of Israel lives), is primarily this, a reaction to the attempt to obliterate us and the assertion of our solidarity or identity that defies the depression or acceptance of the catastrophe as the final word, but instead the assertion of defiant survival. Such defiance is considered solid, and those who say, “oh, f*** it, let it get flushed down the toilet with 200 other disappearing languages” are considered traitors.

      There are those who have no knowledge of the need for national or cultural solidarity, and thus do not understand the language of national solidarity (and its opposite: self hate.) That’s why I offered the two non national analogies (women and workers).

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 22, 2018, 2:39 pm

        “1. a woman who is anti abortion might be considered a self hating woman by feminists”

        Is she against her own abortion, or other women’s abortions?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 22, 2018, 5:02 pm

        “I think the pressures to assimilate were quite apparent to those who came to america”

        Exactly! Giving Jews full civil rights, and a Presedential letter declaring our rights was the most antisemitic thing America ever did!

        And talk about “pressure to assimilate” the American system allowed anybody to leave or switch religions!

        When even the African-Americans and Native Americans were considered separate peoples, no such privilege was ever granted, or even offered, to the Jews in America! They treated us, those cossacks, like we were merely white people.

        Some Jews were content with their first-class status in America. That’s what self-hatred will do to a people. But many Jews think we deserve more.

      • annie
        annie on December 23, 2018, 5:17 pm

        There are those who have no knowledge of the need for national or cultural solidarity, and thus do not understand the language of national solidarity

        thank you yonah. this probably best explains why self hatred mantra seems like brainwashing and seems so absurd to me. it’s also frightening how the accusation of self hatred has merged with this jewish cultural solidarity. fear of rejection. stigmatization.

      • eljay
        eljay on December 23, 2018, 6:12 pm

        || wondering jew: … national solidarity or religious solidarity or immigrant group solidarity, the analogy would require the group to be besieged in some analogous way: the pressure to abandon one’s immigrant group and identify with the host nation rather than with the group that is the primary source of one’s parents identification. the pressure to abandon a religious tradition that views itself as separate and in opposition to the broader cultural religion. In both these cases the melting pot pressures are such that it requires solidarity if one expects/wishes/hopes to maintain the group identity in the face of these societal pressures. … ||

        I suppose non-Jewish Israelis should be thanking Zionists for removing “melting pot pressures” by establishing Israel as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” with a legislated guarantee of perpetual second-class status for its non-Jewish minorities.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 24, 2018, 11:01 pm

        “why self hatred mantra seems like brainwashing and seems so absurd to me”

        “Annie”, it is supposed to be absurd, irrational and insulting. It is supposed to drive non-Zionist Jews away from organized Judaism.

        Every heard of Jewish people’s alcoholism, domestic, financial or drug problems or suicide being blamed on Jewish “self-hatred”? Or anything else, except anti-Zionism? Anti-Zionism, of whatever strength, is the only symptom of Jewish self-hatred” isn’t it? And nobody, nothing, can purport to cure it except, well, what do you know, Zionism.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 24, 2018, 11:04 pm

        ” jewish cultural solidarity. fear of rejection. stigmatization.”

        Or losing a battle of will!

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 24, 2018, 11:33 pm

        , “a reaction to the attempt to obliterate us and the assertion of our solidarity”

        “Yonah” always thinks of the religious liberty offered by America as an attack on Judaism.

        I think he looks back fondly to the days when non-Jews handled our retention problem for us.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 24, 2018, 11:54 pm

        And come to think of it, a Jew can eat pork and shrimp, he can never go to services, he can marry a non-Jew, but he doesn’t become a “self-hating Jew” until he expresses anti-Zionism.

  6. eljay
    eljay on December 21, 2018, 8:39 pm

    … Here for example is David Harris, head of the American Jewish Committee, in response to Goldberg:

    “If anti-Zionism isn’t a form of anti-Semitism, what is? To deny the Jewish people, of all the peoples on earth, the right to self-determination surely is discriminatory […] And if the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (B.D.S.) movement isn’t another form of anti-Semitism, what is? To single out Israel, the only liberal democracy in the Middle East, for demonization and isolation, while ignoring egregious human rights violators aplenty, once again smacks of anti-Jewish hatred.”

    Typical Zionist lying, whining and whataboutism.

    No-one is denying anyone the right to embrace the religion-based identity of (i.e., to self-determine as) Jewish. But the right to embrace that identity does not grant to those who choose to do so the right:
    – to a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”; or
    – to do evil unto others.

    I do agree with Zionists that:
    – BDS “singles out” Israel – a deliberately and unapologetically expansionist, colonialist and (war) criminal state – for pampering; and
    – the world should start treating Israel the way a deliberately and unapologetically oppressive, colonialist and (war) criminal state should be treated.

  7. JLewisDickerson
    JLewisDickerson on December 21, 2018, 10:26 pm

    RE: That is, that Palestinian opposition to Zionist colonialism is not rooted in some primordial anti-Semitic sentiments that these people harbor for Jews, but is rather a response, an inevitable response, to colonization. Yet Zionism seeks to erase this logical notion from existence. If Palestinian resistance (which it generally frames as “terror”) is a mere response to colonization, then the Zionists cannot hold the role of the good guys in this ‘clash of civilizations’ . . . ~ Ofir

    SEE: ■ “Are YOU Brainwashed?” | by Uri Avnery | zope.gush-shalom.org | September 6, 2018

    (EXCERPTS) It’s frightening. Unprincipled psychologists, in the service of a malignant regime, use sophisticated techniques in order to control the mind of a person from afar.

    The term “brainwashing” was born in 1950. . .

    . . . How is this done? It’s quite simple, really: one has to suppress all other voices. One has to make sure that the citizen hears only one voice. One that repeats a few messages over and over, endlessly. This way the lie becomes truth.

    In such a situation, the ordinary citizen becomes convinced that the official line is really their own personal opinion. This is an unconscious process. When one tells a citizen that they are brainwashed, they are deeply insulted.

    This has been happening in Israel over the last few years. The citizen is not conscious that it is happening. He or she absorbs diverse newspapers, TV programs and radio broadcasts, and sees that all these media are freely arguing with each other and even quarreling with each other. The citizen is not conscious of the fact that on the one critical subject of our life – war and peace – all the media are “connected” to one singular line of brainwashing.

    DURING THE last few weeks we have been seeing a perfect example of this mechanism. The events on the Gaza Strip border have activated a mechanism of brainwashing that dictatorial regimes in the world can only envy.

    Let’s examine ourselves: what have we heard over the radio? What have we seen on TV? What did we read in the papers?

    Within a few weeks more than a hundred human beings were shot dead, and many thousands were wounded by live fire. Why?

    “We were forced to fire at them because they were storming the border fence”. And indeed, did the Gazans themselves not proclaim their will to “return home” – meaning, to return to Israeli territory?

    But on May 14, “Black Monday”, 63 unarmed demonstrators were shot dead and over 1500 wounded by live fire. Every Israeli knows that this was necessary because the demonstrators stormed the fence and were about to swarm into Israel. Nobody paid attention to the simple fact that there was not a single photo showing such an occurrence. Not even one. In spite of the fact that on both sides of the fence there were hundreds of photographers, including Israeli army photographers, who filmed every single detail. Tens of thousands stormed, and not a single picture?

    One should notice the use of the word “terror”. It has turned into an adjective attached to everything. There are not just tunnels – they are all always “terror-tunnels”. There are “terror-activists”. There is “the Hamas terror-regime” and there are “terror-bases”. Now there are “terror-kites”.

    Notice: not just “incendiary kites”, or “destruction-kites”, only “terror-kites”. The same every day in all media. Someone has made the terminology decision. Of course, everyone who has the word “terror” attached to his name is “a son of death”, as you say in biblical Hebrew. Another proud term of the brainwashing.

    The inhabitants of the Gaza Strip are “terrorists”. (In Hebrew, a special term has been invented: “Mekhablim”). All of them? Of course, no question. Especially Hamas members. But Hamas is a political party, which has won democratic elections in all of Palestine. A civilian party which has indeed a military wing. But in our media all party members and supporters are “terrorists”, sons of death. Of course.

    The use of these terms, hundreds of times every day, clearly constitute brainwashing, without the citizens noticing it. They are getting used to the fact that all Gazans are terrorists, mekhablim. This is a process of dehumanization, the creation of Untermenschen in the Nazi lexicon. Their killing is allowed, even desirable. . .

    ENTIRE COMMENTARY – http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1528467876/

  8. Vera Gottlieb
    Vera Gottlieb on December 22, 2018, 2:25 pm

    I am truly ‘up to here’…having to listen about this ‘self hating’ business. Those Germans who opposed Hitler…self-haters too?

    • Mooser
      Mooser on December 22, 2018, 3:01 pm

      “I am truly ‘up to here’…having to listen about this ‘self hating’ business”

      But just think “Vera”, if Judaism can make Likud, right-wing Zionism a prerequisite for being a Jew, all non-Likud Zionist Jews can be alienated from Judaism. The Judaism will be 100% Zionist, and the world can refuse us nothing. Who would dare contest the will of 100% (or near enough as to make no difference) of the remaining Jews?

    • Citizen
      Citizen on December 24, 2018, 12:16 pm

      The White Rose was despised by the German Establishment: https://www.jewishbookcouncil.org/book/sophie-scholl-and-the-white-rose

  9. Ossinev
    Ossinev on December 23, 2018, 7:43 am

    All these tortuous references to “self denying” “self hating” “self loathing”. Why not cut the quick and just call them ” Fake Jews” ?

    • Mooser
      Mooser on December 23, 2018, 12:43 pm

      “All these tortuous references to “self denying” “self hating” “self loathing”.

      Gotta make it impossible for non or anti-Zionist Jews to remain part of organized Judaism. Percentage matters more than people.

      Besides, who could refuse the unified demands of a dwindling people?

  10. amigo
    amigo on December 23, 2018, 3:45 pm

    I hated myself because I used to support the state of Israel.

    I hated myself because for years , I allowed myself to be hoodwinked by the zionists (before I understood their true goals)into thinking they were the victims.

    I hated myself because I bought off the claim that Palestine was a Land without people for a people without a land.

    I hated myself for believing that The Jews made the desert bloom.

    I hated myself because I believed that Israel was given the land (someone else,s ) by some real estate agent (God) in the sky.

    I hated myself because I celebrated the 67 war.

    I hated myself because I took so long to seek the truth.

    I have moved beyond that and no longer hate myself because I have committed to do all I can , albeit small , to support the Palestinian cause and end the curse of zionism.

    New years resolution!!.

    I resolve to double my efforts in 2019.

  11. RoHa
    RoHa on December 24, 2018, 12:01 am

    “Self hatred is a revulsion or rejection of your own culture.”

    Let’s leave aside the question of Jews for a moment, and consider the case of a member of the long-lost Yallawi tribe. Suppose one tribesman gets tired of a diet of armadillo and pumpkin, and wearied of wandering through the jungle shouting “We’re the Yallawi!” He decides to get found, go to the city of San Serife, eat pizza, and study dentistry. Furthermore, he thinks that all the members of the tribe would have fuller, richer, happier lives if they forgot about being Yallawi and did the same.

    Does that count as self-hatred?

    Would it be in any way wrong for him to do so?

    What would happen if the rest of the tribe followed his example?

    Eventually the Yallawi language* would be forgotten. So would the armadillo dance, and the pumpkin dance. No-one would sing the seven songs of the Armadillo Goddess, or the five songs of the Pumpkin God.

    We could class these as losses.

    But on the other hand, the children of the Yallawi do have fuller, richer, happier lives than they would have had as Yallawi. San Serife has plenty of dentists. And the armadillos are a lot safer.

    Is this so bad?

    (* Linguistic note: The Yallawi language uses the same word to mean “armadillo” and “pumpkin”.)

    • Citizen
      Citizen on December 24, 2018, 12:11 pm

      Why Did Richard Goldstone Throw the Goldstone Report Under the Bus? https://fpif.org/why_did_richard_goldstone_throw_the_goldstone_report_under_the_bus/

    • Jon66
      Jon66 on December 24, 2018, 12:12 pm

      Roha
      Imagine the Yallawi is embraced by the new culture. Some are so impressed with him that adopt his patterns in his clothes or some dishes from his tribe. That would be cultural appropriation and that is apparently a VERY bad thing.
      Personally I’m not a big fan of the term self-hating this or that. I think it’s an intellectually lazy short hand for discussing the real issues. But I don’t think that the concept is unique to Jews and that is the point that I was trying to make. But here at MW it’s often only a bad thing if Jews do it.

      • eljay
        eljay on December 24, 2018, 6:41 pm

        || Jon66: … Personally I’m not a big fan of the term self-hating this or that. I think it’s an intellectually lazy short hand for discussing the real issues. But I don’t think that the concept is unique to Jews and that is the point that I was trying to make. But here at MW it’s often only a bad thing if Jews do it. ||

        The concept isn’t unique to Jews and it’s not only bad if Jews do it. But you’re absolutely right that Zionists exhibit intellectual laziness every time they choose to spew invectives such as “self-hatred” or “self loathing” at non-/anti-Zionist Jews* rather than to discuss the real issues.
        __________________________________
        (*And “anti-Semitism” and “Jew hatred” at non-/anti-Zionist non-Jews.)

      • RoHa
        RoHa on December 24, 2018, 9:55 pm

        I thought the point you were trying to make was that rejection of ancestral culture is based on revulsion, harmful to the members of the relevant sub-group, and is a Bad Thing.

        But perhaps I am confusing you with Yonah. I find it hard to tell you Zionists apart. It’s the hats.

        I must admit that I do not understand what counts as “cultural appropriation”, or why it is bad. I can, however, see that it is annoying for Palestinians to see Israelis claim that Palestinian dishes are Israeli inventions.

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