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‘It was definitely about the Benjamins’ — former campaign staffer details AIPAC’s far-reaching financial power

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Ady Barkan, a Democratic progressive activist who is dying of ALS, just put up this thread on Twitter in response to Ilhan Omar’s powerful tweet of last night about AIPAC. He tells the story of how AIPAC reached out to a candidate he was working for, and the candidate’s compliance was “definitely about the Benjamins.” He describes the importance of Omar’s intervention in calling out AIPAC, a “pillar of the occupation,” and the refusal to discuss the lobby’s financially-driven power to do “terrible things.” 

Barkan wrote:

A thread on @IlhanMN, anti-semitism, and my personal experience with @AIPAC’s money.

In 2006, I was the first real staffer on a long-shot Democratic Congressional race in deep red Ohio. My boss was a hippie doctor with a lefty perspective on international affairs. . . .very skeptical of military force, opposed to the Israeli occupation of Palestine, etc.

A month after winning the Dem primary, we were struggling to gain attention or money. Nobody gave us a snowball’s chance to win. But one political action org proactively reached out to us.
It wasn’t Emily’s List, although we were fiercely prochoice. Wasn’t a doctor’s lobby or an enviro or labor org. It was AIPAC.

A local Dem volunteer leader of the Cincinnati AIPAC group came over and said they would like to donate the PAC max (I believe $5000) and would also like to see Vic take a public stance on two issues that, I thought, were relatively obscure: an Iran sanctions bill and something else I can’t recall, perhaps about continuing arms sales to Israel. Suffice to say, these were not hot button issues in the race.

Vic and I both thought of ourselves as pro-peace, not pro-Israel. (Note: I am an Israeli citizen, have many family there, have lived there & visited perhaps 20 times). We both felt a bit icky about doing it, because it was too hawkish and too quid pro quo but we were desperate for cash and so we put online a statement about how Vic supported a two-state peace agreement and AIPAC’s two pet issues of the cycle.

It was definitely about the Benjamins. Never would have done it otherwise. AIPAC’s power is also about great organizing (they sent a local Dem volunteer emissary) and about diligence (they paid attention to us before anyone else and were happy to donate to both us and the pro-Likud incumbent). But money is the lubricant that makes the whole machine run.

@IlhanMN is right to point this out. AIPAC is a central pillar of the occupation. Without Congressional support, the Likud/anti-Palestine/pro-occupation project would be radically undermined. AIPAC is the anchor of that support, and its money and Sheldon Adelson’s money are indispensable to the work.

We have a growing anti-semitism problem in America. @IlhanMN is not part of it. @lindasrsour is not part of it. They are allies of mine and of Jews across this country who are fighting for peace, racial justice, immigrants’ rights, and the defeat of fascism. I am deeply disappointed in @SpeakerPelosi for her failure today.

When AIPAC and its army try to silence criticism of the immoral, illegal, inhumane occupation by screaming about anti-semitism and claiming that nobody may ever talk about how the Israel lobby uses money to build power, don’t fall for their bullshit. They are doing terrible things in the name of Jews and of Israel, and it behooves the American Jewish community to resist them, resist their agenda, stand up for Free Speech, and stand up for justice.

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126 Responses

  1. Keith
    Keith on February 11, 2019, 5:43 pm

    ADY BARKAN- “We have a growing anti-semitism problem in America.”

    Any empirical data to support his oft repeated claim? And I don’t mean ADL opinion polls of Jews who claim that increased criticism of Israel represents a “…growing anti-semitism problem in America>” This fixation on anti-Semitism is a core component of the Zionist ideology. I have yet to see any hard data to suggest that the “Jewish community” is anything other than relatively privileged and powerful compared to other ethnic groups, and that the social indicators of well being bear that out.

    • annie
      annie on February 11, 2019, 8:25 pm

      that synagogue shooting looks like hard data to me. since trump has been in office the white nationalists have become empowered. one of their targets is jews (“the jews will not replace us”).

      • Keith
        Keith on February 12, 2019, 12:21 am

        ANNIE- “that synagogue shooting looks like hard data to me.”

        The synagogue shooting was an anomaly. Show me the murder rate of Jews per 100,000 versus the murder rate for non-Jews per 100,000 over time, then we can ascertain some sort of increase in real anti-Semitism. Also, show me the number of unarmed Jews that have been killed by police during the last 10 years versus the number of unarmed Blacks who have been killed and the reality will be obvious. As I indicated, an unbiased examination of the indicators of social well being will make it crystal clear that Jews are a relatively privileged and safe minority, not some beleaguered minority in need of special consideration. You disagree?

      • annie
        annie on February 12, 2019, 1:40 am

        Show me the murder rate of Jews per 100,000 versus the murder rate for non-Jews per 100,000 over time

        do your own homework keith. you’ve said this like a thousand times. murder is not the only measure of “real anti-Semitism”. when leaders in the jewish community are actively meeting with and aligning with nazi types, that’s dangerous. and it wouldn’t be the first time.

        show me the number of unarmed Jews that have been killed by police during the last 10 years versus the number of unarmed Blacks who have been killed and the reality will be obvious.

        i’d be the last person to claim anti semitism is more of a scourge on our community than racism against black, muslims, native americans, and the list goes on. my point is not that jews are worse off, because they are not. at the same time, we’ve got an interesting article here and this statement by Ady Barkan, and you’ve got top comment. you’ve chosen to use your soapbox to target one thing he’s said and challenge it, even tho it was not the primary focus of his concern, at all.

        me, if i were jewish in this climate, anti semitism would not be my primary concern, and i don’t think it’s barkan’s either. but left leaning american jews have a formidable foe in this fight. remember after the synagogue slaughter when the israelis arrived and tried to use them for fodder. make no mistake, they will be targeted, and by some of the most dangerous and ruthless. just like in hungary, the anti zionists, — they are dispensable. well, you’ve got your soapbox. way to totally ignore anything barkan has to say. i’m done.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus on February 12, 2019, 12:34 am

        Annie is confusing clinical insanity with politics. By those measures, Clinton would have been “empowering” the Oklahoma bombing.

      • annie
        annie on February 12, 2019, 1:26 am

        annie’s confused!

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus on February 12, 2019, 9:02 am

        No use pretending to confuse present progressive with past regressive, Annie. Besides, a couple nostalgic fools, who by the way in their majority are outspoken admirers of the Zionists, are less than negligible — relatively speaking.

      • rthomas13
        rthomas13 on February 12, 2019, 9:08 am

        What the white nationalists meant was this Jewish refugee organization that once spent its money to help persecuted Jews in eastern Europe to immigrate to America now spends it on Latinos, mostly mixed race people, since it had run out of Jews to help. ‘They will not replace us, whites, with mixed race people or others.’ Their anger was not generally against Jews as such. Still very nasty, but not quite as incomprehensible as first appeared.

      • Keith
        Keith on February 12, 2019, 11:31 am

        ANNIE- “do your own homework keith.”

        BS! Those that make the claim of rampant and increasing anti-Semitism are the ones who need to provide the empirical data to back it up, not me to prove it false. If you claim that there are vast colonies of aliens on the far side of the moon is it up to me to accept that as true UNLESS I can demonstrate otherwise? That’s crap and you know it. Besides, I don’t have the resources to do elaborate studies. The publicly available data isn’t broken down in that fashion. And, as I have indicated before, Big Zion does have the resources and could well be keeping track of this. And if actual data supported their victimhood meme, you better believe that you would know about it. Instead, we are continually inundated with allegations of anti-Semitic tropes. Did you see the movie Defamation? The examples of ongoing “serious” anti-Semitism the ADL provided the Israeli filmmaker were pathetic.

        ANNIE- ” you’ve said this like a thousand times.”

        Somewhat less, I think. Surely a drop in the bucket compared to how frequently this ZIONIST (and NEO-ZIONIST) meme is reiterated again and again as if it is gospel. Victimhood, victimhood, victimhood is all I am hearing where, relatively speaking, none exists. And that is the whole point, isn’t it? As you yourself admit further in your comment, compared to other groups, Jews are not a beleaguered minority, yet the unsupported claims of victimhood continue. Like others, I am sick and tired of all the BS about anti-Semitic tropes, etc. And in his “support” for Ilhan Omar’s “Benjamins” tweet, Ady Barkan inappropriately reinforces the bogus victimhood meme, a disturbingly common occurrence among “anti-Zionist” Jews. You can’t opposed Zionism while simultaneously accepting Zionist memes and myth-history, something Mondoweiss is guilty of. The fact that mine was the first comment is irrelevant. It just happened that way. And your association with Mondoweiss is coloring your judgment on this matter. And how did Israeli citizen Ady Barkan get to be the arbiter on who is an anti-Semite, anti-Semitism a growing problem in America according to him? So this is your strategy? When a non-Jew is accused of anti-Semitism, trot out some Jew to provide a letter of character reference? Jeez.

      • annie
        annie on February 12, 2019, 12:57 pm

        the grotesque treatment of omar alone is enough to increase anti semitism for who likes witnessing our political leaders line up to lick the floor pandering to dictatorial lobbyists (logic people, there will always be those who blame “the jews” for that).

        don’t tell me what i know, what i admit or what i better believe. neither the author nor i ever claimed or implied anti semitism was running “rampant” or worse than the systemic bigotry against communities obviously most vulnerable (definitely not jews in an era where families are being separated and thousands of children are currently being caged). it was a one-liner used to emphasize neither omar not sarsour have anything to do with anti semitism (because they don’t).

        your continued rants against the mere mention ‘anti semitism is growing’ (after a slaughter in a synagogue no less!) now include Mondoweiss being “guilty” and me having a “strategy”. you can take the last words, your angry diatribes are noted, published and welcomed here. try not to burst any more brain cells along the way (“ZIONIST (and NEO-ZIONIST)“), because i seriously doubt anyone is ever going to be providing the oft mentioned empirical data you seek. and btw, i happen to think your (daily) association with mondoweiss is coloring your judgment on this matter too. so we’re even in that regard.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on February 12, 2019, 1:34 pm

        “since trump has been in office the white nationalists have become empowered”

        Ah, so that’s why Zionism and organised Judaism have been so eager to be part of that. Our leaders always know what’s ‘good for the Jews.’

        They want to reassure people that not all Jews are like those HIAS lefties. ‘Screw the optics’, that’s more important.

      • annie
        annie on February 12, 2019, 1:56 pm

        so that’s why Zionism and organised Judaism have been so eager to be part of that.

        birds of a feather..

      • Mooser
        Mooser on February 12, 2019, 2:25 pm

        “birds of a feather…”

        Are you calling them a bunch of faigelahs! I must warn you, that is a trope!

        Let us say rather that OJ and Z have seen the future, and want to be among the winners, not the losers.
        I don’t have much confidence in their choices, but no doubt “Keith” will reassure me.

      • gamal
        gamal on February 12, 2019, 2:28 pm

        “birds of a feather..”

        Apparently a new labour party is to organized by Rachel Riley (?) and Blair with JK Rowling as the leader.. because of socialism and its inevitable consequence anti-semitism it’s just getting ridiculous

        https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6686861/Countdown-star-Rachel-Riley-teaming-advisers-Blairs-government-launch-new-party.html

      • Keith
        Keith on February 12, 2019, 2:30 pm

        ANNIE- “your continued rants against the mere mention ‘anti semitism is growing’ (after a slaughter in a synagogue no less!)”

        Rants? My asking for empirical data to support this erroneous oft repeated claim constitutes a rant? The passive acceptance of this claim of growing anti-Semitism a good thing? Perceived anti-Semitism is the mother’s milk of Jewish Zionism. You appear to at least acquiesce to this Zionism meme, in spite of quotes I have provided from Finkelstein and others that this emphasis on anti-Semitism is wildly disproportionate to the actual situation. And, as I indicated, my objection to the uncritical acceptance of purported anti-Semitism pales in comparison to these claims with which we are inundated.

        Interestingly, while you wildly exaggerate my “thousand” comments and “rants” on this topic, what has been the response? Have I been vilified by Hophmi? Wondering Jew? Catalan? Jackdaw? etc? No, you are the primary (exclusive?) critic of my call for some real empirical data on this topic. Data which I am incapable of providing just as I could not identify how many billionaires are Jewish and must rely upon Finkelstein, et al for this type of information. Relevant information in regards to the political economy, I might add. Yet, you act like an attack dog going after me when I raise the topic.

        I am pursuing this because because of a situation I perceive which you vehemently deny. Ady Barkan reinforces the meme that there is a “growing anti-semitism problem in America,” does he not? He then states that “@IlhanMN is not part of it.” And that “@lindasrsour is not part of it.” He is positioning himself as an arbiter of what constitutes anti-Semitism, which he sees as a growing problem in America. In other words, he and other anti-Zionist Jews are to be the arbiters of what is acceptable discourse and activity on the Left. A Left, we are constantly told, that is increasingly anti-Semitic. Am I to assume that Israeli citizen Ady Barkan might not approve of my comments? So, if I cannot get an anti-Zionist Jew to vouch for me, then should I just shut up? Apparently so. Charges of anti-Semitism remain very useful in defining the limits of discussion.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on February 12, 2019, 6:10 pm

        “I am pursuing this because because of a situation I perceive which you vehemently deny…”

        Would you say “Annie” is either closing her eyes to a situation she does not wish to acknowledge, or she is not aware of the caliber of disaster indicated by the presence of a pool table in her community?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on February 12, 2019, 6:37 pm

        ” frequently this ZIONIST (and NEO-ZIONIST) meme”

        Are we using “NEO-ZIONIST” in it’s conventional meaning or ‘Jewish anti-Zionist Zionists’ or something like that? Very confusing.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on February 12, 2019, 6:51 pm

        “Have I been vilified by Hophmi? Wondering Jew? Catalan? Jackdaw? etc? “

        Of course not. You have more confidence in organised Judaism and Zionism than they do.

      • annie
        annie on February 12, 2019, 11:11 pm

        don’t flatter yourself keith, i don’t recall ever vehemently denying any of your claims. you don’t think a slaughter in a synagogue, nazis marching in the streets and zionist leaders meeting with neonazis is evidence of hard data, i think it is. whatever. i also don’t think slaughtering palestinian kids protesting in gaza is “good for the jews” either. i think there’s every reason people would be angry and some of those angry people might direct some of that anger towards jews.

        keep seeking “empirical data” in the comment threads at mondoweiss if it suits you, but i think it’s redundant and you’re barking up the wrong tree. the chance anyone here is going to research that is about zilch. you’re the one who wants it and you can’t even be bothered. what.ever. you sound angry. good luck.

        and echi, synonyms for empower include; emancipate, unyoke, unfetter, unshackle, unchain, set free, give freedom to; historical enfranchise”

        do i think the siege and subsequence massacre at waco (clinton) unleashed tim mcVeigh (empowering him to act)? yes, i do. here’s a film about that very thing:

        he went to waco: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtJrT5iwwtM

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtJrT5iwwtM

      • RoHa
        RoHa on February 12, 2019, 11:32 pm

        Mooser, does Captain Billy’s Whiz Bang publish Jewish jokes?

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus on February 13, 2019, 3:24 am

        Annie,
        //
        I see you meant “inflame” or “provoke”, not “empower”. No big deal, the point being that 1) individual madness is still madness, not politics; 2) you cannot ignore the combination of war of aggression + police state + widespread population compliance we are experiencing with unleashed Demolican power, and yell “fascism” (as directed by the Nazi-neocons and the CIAFBIsoup, who are fully in power) about a couple totally powerless nostalgic biddies. These are practically inoffensive, there to attract the eye of liberaloids who cannot tell cultural irrelevancies from fundamental priorities.
        //
        As for “antisemitism”, undefined, either you mean pure racism, in which case a separate word is absurd, or you mean acquired characteristics, like religion, that apply to some only, and can and should be discussed. Period. In either case it isn’t a problem of the Palestinian resistance.
        //
        The enemy identifies itself clearly as Jewish and British-now-American. Any religious-or-nationalist “Jewish” who don’t like it and want to cleanse their conscience should better take it up with the Zionists instead of playing goddam thought police.

      • annie
        annie on February 13, 2019, 7:24 am

        ech, i see you meant what i said, not what you said. no big deal.

      • gamal
        gamal on February 13, 2019, 7:33 am

        “no big deal”

        I took delivery of All That Remains today, I would never have thought to buy it without your link, I couldn’t get a signed copy as don’t deliver to Ireland, in this day and age.

        it carries the dedication “To all those who called these villages home and their descendants”

        thanks.

      • annie
        annie on February 13, 2019, 8:08 am

        you did gamal? omg. i wish i was there turning the pages with you. tell us, what’s it like?

        oh, also i read your rachel riley jk rowling link yesterday. thoroughly desperate.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on February 13, 2019, 11:49 am

        “Mooser, does Captain Billy’s Whiz Bang publish Jewish jokes?”

        “CBWB” the leading humor publication in the 1920’s*, published jokes about all minority groups, in line with the American humor of the time.

        (*according to its publisher. I found this out by using Google search.
        But until this Google search engine reaches the Southern Hemisphere, ask me anything, “RoHa” and I’ll be glad to look it up for you. If it’s clean, of course.)

      • gamal
        gamal on February 13, 2019, 4:34 pm

        “tell us, what’s it like?”

        Hey Annie I will do, but Joan and her friend killed me tonight, we sang together but them women there drink man into incapacity, I will be fine in the morning, raising the windhorse, they drink Gin like its water.

        love G

      • annie
        annie on February 13, 2019, 4:55 pm

        get some rest gamal!

        xx

      • gamal
        gamal on February 13, 2019, 5:01 pm

        “get some rest”

        yes mama and i going to eat my food too. big hug, don’t worry man strong last out this life easy, this easy life, my dear friend it’s a big deal to me you know that you befriended me.

        g

      • RoHa
        RoHa on February 13, 2019, 8:51 pm

        Thanks, Mooser. That will help to determine how much of a threat that pool table presents.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on February 14, 2019, 7:58 pm

        “danger this pool table represents”

        When your parents are caught with the cistern empty on a Saturday night , that’s trouble.

    • William3
      William3 on February 12, 2019, 8:38 am

      Yes and In the meantime our murderous government continues to slaughter innocents:

      https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/02/12/588372/70-civilians-killed-injured-as-USled-coalition-warplanes-pound-Syrian-town

    • Jackdaw
      Jackdaw on February 14, 2019, 2:45 am

      @Keith

      Yup. Jews on the brain.

      24×7. All Jews, all the time.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on February 14, 2019, 8:46 am

        Jackdaw, don’t project your own fixation.

      • Keith
        Keith on February 14, 2019, 10:51 am

        JACKDAW- “Yup. Jews on the brain.”

        Empirical data, Jackdaw. Show me the numbers or fly away! (And take Annie with you.)

      • RoHa
        RoHa on February 14, 2019, 9:57 pm

        Keith, you want poor Jackdaw to get together with the dreaded Hatchet Annie? That’s anti-Corvine!

      • Mooser
        Mooser on February 15, 2019, 11:40 am

        ” fly away! (And take Annie with you.)”

        In “Keith’s” defense must be admitted the fact that the entire Seattle area is snowed-in and everybody (myself included) is very on edge and irritable.
        And that’s the time we remember: ‘Beneath the deepest snows, the secret of a rose, is simply that it knows, spring will be a little late, this year.’

      • Keith
        Keith on February 16, 2019, 12:15 am

        MOOSER- “In “Keith’s” defense….”

        Jeez, the parenthetical expression was an after thought, a clumsy attempt at humor. I was poking Annie with love in my heart if not in my words. Feeling free to verbalize disagreements is healthy, not a source ill feelings. Have you noticed how the Zionist commenters rarely have disagreements? Something wrong there. From time to time I disagree with Annie as I do with you. So what? Keep in mind that when I ridicule and insult you it is a sign of affection. Kumbaya bro’.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on February 16, 2019, 12:08 pm

        ” I was poking Annie with love in my heart if not in my words.”

        Note to self: Go over any comment, several times before submitting.

      • annie
        annie on February 16, 2019, 11:36 pm

        jack, you probably meant 24/7 not 168.

        you want poor Jackdaw to get together with the dreaded Hatchet Annie?

        keith knows if i flew away with jack there’d be a carcass at the end of the flight and it wouldn’t be mine.

        ;)

        nice try keith!

  2. Rusty Pipes
    Rusty Pipes on February 11, 2019, 6:10 pm

    Who are the Benjamins? I know that the Sabans are mega-donors, but I’m unfamiliar with mega-donors named Benjamin.

  3. smithgp
    smithgp on February 11, 2019, 7:10 pm

    Hi Rusty:

    The Benjamins are another branch of the Trope family.

    Hope this helps.

    • RoHa
      RoHa on February 11, 2019, 11:58 pm

      The Trope family are those singers in that musical, right?

      • amigo
        amigo on February 12, 2019, 7:08 am

        “The Trope family are those singers in that musical, right?” RoHa

        The Family VON Trope has a more apt ring to it.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      Maximus Decimus Meridius on February 12, 2019, 8:48 am

      OK that made me laugh out loud! As did Amigo’s line below.

      The Trope family are the secret weapon against falling birthrates – they’re growing and prospering as we speak!

  4. mondonut
    mondonut on February 11, 2019, 10:13 pm

    AIPAC is not even in the Top 20, not even close. It’s not about the Benjamins, it’s about trafficking in well known antisemitic tropes and the willingness of most Israeli haters to reflexively defend it. Israel is defended in Congress not because of Jew gold, but because the US population overwhelming sides with Israel.

    ——1998-2018—————
    US Chamber of Commerce $1,506,125,680
    National Assn of Realtors $543,448,083
    American Medical Assn $393,194,500
    American Hospital Assn $372,445,855
    Pharmaceutical Research
    & Manufacturers of America $364,374,550
    General Electric $359,612,000
    Blue Cross/Blue Shield $347,554,491
    Business Roundtable $284,120,000
    AARP $282,621,064
    Boeing Co $274,803,310
    Northrop Grumman $272,125,213
    Lockheed Martin $255,304,170
    Exxon Mobil $254,742,742
    AT&T Inc $248,514,644
    Verizon Communications $244,959,109
    Natin’l Assn of Broadcasters $229,248,000
    Edison Electric Institute $224,795,955
    Southern Co $223,210,694
    Altria Group $197,775,200
    Comcast Corp $197,534,323

    • annie
      annie on February 12, 2019, 12:52 am

      mondonut, there’s no available record of the money aipac organizes because it’s hidden. you can see how they do it in the undercover sting. beginning around 9 minutes in is one example. it’s definitely in the millions for each election cycle.

      because the US population overwhelming sides with Israel.

      that’s absolutely not what the new polling suggests, especially not for the dem party. this is not 2002, you can’t get away with making that claim anymore. and even then the situation was dicey: https://www.jta.org/2002/10/22/lifestyle/legislators-uneasy-over-pro-israel-lobby/amp

      congressmen and senators don’t do anything unless you pressure them. they kick the can down the road unless you pressure them. The only way to do that is with money.” (10:35) get it? this has nothing to do with “the US population overwhelming sides with Israel” and everything to do with pressure from the lobby. don’t believe me, believe the lobbyists:

      • annie
        annie on February 12, 2019, 1:24 am

        “a relatively small number of families [16:53] supply hundreds of millions of dollars annually to lobby politicians” –“the 200 families whose giving constitutes 90% of all political giving are not giving because they want a government contract or because it’s good for their business, they’re doing it because they actually care. In my view it’s obscene how much money there is.

      • mondonut
        mondonut on February 12, 2019, 1:59 am

        @annie, there’s no available record of the money aipac organizes because it’s hidden.

        Doubling down on the ugly trope. So now it is secret gold?

      • annie
        annie on February 12, 2019, 3:52 am

        Doubling down on the ugly trope.

        seriously mondonut, did you watch the video? this is not just a jewish thing, it’s how people get around campaign finance laws. it’s the guys voice for heavens sense. has anyone come forward to claim these recordings are a fraud? no, because this is how they do it.

        they mention “undercover” many times in the video. here’s the thing m-nut. in the history of white people and black people and asian people and many other people, in fact mankind in general, there’s always been false accusations. right now there are people sitting on death row falsely accused and convicted. but as far as i am aware there is no (other) ethnic group claiming “we [someone of our ethnicity] were falsely accused in the past and therefore accusing anyone of our brethren in the future amounts to a racist trope. if that were the standard across all peoples, no one would be allowed to be accused, ever.

        ok, its clear you think jews should be held to a different (higher? lower?) standard than all others. i get that. but it might be a problem convincing everyone else (us non jews) you are that special. because personally, in my humble experience, you guys are not more exceptional and deserve no more exceptional treatment than the rest of us. i don’t get to say my great uncle was falsely accused and hung as a result and therefore i can’t be accused of orchestrating a race war.

        in the here and now — apparently everybody is fair game.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on February 12, 2019, 1:50 pm

        “in the here and now — apparently everybody is fair game.”

        You know the rules, “Annie”. Since anti-semites may have in the last ten centuries accused Jews, singly and in concert, of almost any imaginable offense, any accusation involving Jews must be the result of anti-semitism. Bang! Case dismissed!

    • eljay
      eljay on February 12, 2019, 8:55 am

      || mondonut: AIPAC is not even in the Top 20 … It’s not about the Benjamins, it’s about trafficking in well known antisemitic tropes … Israel is defended in Congress not because of Jew gold … ||

      It’s funny how one woman refers to Israeli influence and suddenly Zionists like mondonut are tripping over themselves to anti-Semitically conflate Israel with all Jews and all Jews with Israel so that they can then accuse her of anti-Semitism.

      • amigo
        amigo on February 12, 2019, 3:26 pm

        “suddenly Zionists like mondonut ” eljay

        Not only is M NUT a zionist but he is also an Irish Catholic Zionist.

        I always thought m nut was exceptional.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      Maximus Decimus Meridius on February 12, 2019, 9:03 am

      Exactly Annie. This ‘trope’ thing is just another form of ‘censorship by slander’. So because Jews have been maliciously accused of certain things just because they were Jews means no Jew can ever be accused of anything ever again? What rot!

      The Irish have long been stereotyped as drunks. Does that mean no Irish person ever gets drunk now? Obviously not. The Scots have long been stereotyped as being dour and stingy. So if I say an individual Scot is dour and stingy is that automatically slander? Obviously not.

      This ‘trope’ thing is just a way to shut down argument. I see that ‘mondonut’ doesn’t actually refute anything you’ve said. He’s hoping we won’t notice and will focus on the ‘trope’ instead.

      • eljay
        eljay on February 12, 2019, 10:05 am

        || Maximus Decimus Meridius: … This ‘trope’ thing is just another form of ‘censorship by slander’. … ||

        It’s Zionists anti-Semitically “singling out” Israel for special treatment.

      • amigo
        amigo on February 12, 2019, 10:46 am

        “The Irish have long been stereotyped as drunks. Does that mean no Irish person ever gets drunk now? “MDM

        Hear-hic- Hear. Be Jaysus, I Couldn,t have said -hic-it better meself sur.

      • annie
        annie on February 12, 2019, 12:15 pm

        This ‘trope’ thing is just another form of ‘censorship by slander’.

        exactly.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on February 12, 2019, 3:07 pm

        MDM: “The Irish have long been stereotyped as drunks. Does that mean no Irish person ever gets drunk now?”

        According to the psuedo logic of ZIonist liars and imbeciles you would be playing with anti-irish tropes, if you accuse an Irish person or a group of Irish person of being drunk.

    • mondonut
      mondonut on February 12, 2019, 2:00 pm

      @annie you guys are not more exceptional and deserve no more exceptional treatment than the rest of us.

      Us guys? Nobody has ever accused us Irish Catholics of thinking we were special. And for the record, no I did not watch your video, I did not get past your secret Jew gold comment.

      • amigo
        amigo on February 12, 2019, 3:02 pm

        ” Nobody has ever accused us Irish Catholics of thinking we were special.” m nut

        Why would they –we are no more special than anyone else.

        No S–t , you are an Irish Catholic.Could have fooled me.

        But on the bright side , I have many contacts over there and could get you fixed up with a job.Surely anything would be better than trolling for a living.

        Post your CV and some references and I will make a few calls right away. Aint tribalism great.

      • annie
        annie on February 12, 2019, 3:03 pm

        that was your ‘secret jew gold’ comment. i put gold in the search function and the only one discussing it is you, then eljay pointed out your comment was anti semitic.

        i didn’t realize you were irish catholic, won’t be making that mistake again. if the shoe fits, wear it.

      • Keith
        Keith on February 12, 2019, 5:57 pm

        MONDONUT- “Nobody has ever accused us Irish Catholics of thinking we were special.”

        So how did an “Irish Catholic” develop such a Jewish Zionist persona? Compared to your comments, Netanyahu is an anti-Zionist.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on February 12, 2019, 9:07 pm

        I don’t understand this “Irish Catholic” category. Is there a particular sect of Catholicism called “Irish Catholicism”?

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak on February 12, 2019, 10:50 pm

        RoHa: I don’t understand this “Irish Catholic” category.
        ———————————————————————–

        Irish Catholics”= Irish who are Catholics, in contradistinction to “Irish Protestants.

      • amigo
        amigo on February 13, 2019, 5:37 am

        RoHa.
        If Mondonut declares he is an Irish Catholic then who are we to argue.

        However .your point is well taken.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on February 13, 2019, 9:49 am

        Keith: “So how did an “Irish Catholic” develop such a Jewish Zionist persona?”

        Very easy. Just say three times “antisemitism” and “Israel haters”. That triggers the Zionist sleeper program.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on February 13, 2019, 11:28 am

        RoHa: “I don’t understand this “Irish Catholic” category.”

        Than good luck with understanding the “Irish Catholic, but pro Israel” category. That’s like being black and pro KKK.

      • amigo
        amigo on February 13, 2019, 3:32 pm

        ““Irish Catholics”= Irish who are Catholics, in contradistinction to “Irish Protestants.“” Sibiriak.

        There are also Irish Moslems and Irish Quakers and Irish Jews and Irish Atheists et al.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

        This “Irish Catholic” term is a hold over from times past.Ireland is now a secular State in which Religious Freedom for all is written into our Constitution.

        Clearly the term is used out of context as Irish and Catholic are not mutually inclusive.Much the same as the term “Jewish Israeli “Jewish being a religion .

        Now sit back and wait for the howls of dissent from the usual suspects.

      • gamal
        gamal on February 13, 2019, 4:29 pm

        “There are also Irish Moslems”

        you see that there, amigo, that’s my man there, who was that Egyptian boy from Dublin who ireland supported and whose release they got, yes amigo my man.

        atá faoi gheall ag Éirinn,

        because Ireland is our home.

      • amigo
        amigo on February 13, 2019, 5:49 pm

        Gamal , it was Ibrahim Halawa.

        He is a citizen and we take care of our citizens no matter what their religion .Consequently , they take care of us.

        I believe that if we ever find ourselves at war , we will see lots of Ibrahims and Gamals in our ranks.As you say , Ireland is your home.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on February 13, 2019, 9:07 pm

        “Irish Catholics”= Irish who are Catholics, in contradistinction to “Irish Protestants.“

        That is clear enough, but I am under the impression that Mondonut is American, not Irish.

        (Though he might be one of those crazy Americans who think they are Irish because their great-grandfather was called Emilio Sanchez O’Higgins.)

      • Misterioso
        Misterioso on February 19, 2019, 4:46 pm

        @mondonut

        My great grandfather was dispossessed and driven out of Ireland by the British during the 19th century. Do I have the right to go to Ireland and kick out the present occupants of what was my great grandfather’s land and take it and its assets over? Certainly not!! It would never enter my mind or that of any sane person. The utterly bogus Zionist argument that today’s Jews are descendants of the ancient Hebrews (not so) and thereby, had/have the right to emigrate from their countries of birth (e.g., Poland, Russia and Europe) and by means of armed might, several massacres, mass rape and intimidation, dispossess and expel well over one million indigenous Muslim and Christian Palestinian Arabs between late 1947 and 1967 and create an expansionist, racist, apartheid, occupier “Jewish state” is utterly ludicrous and racist to the core.

    • Talkback
      Talkback on February 12, 2019, 3:25 pm

      mondonut: “most Israeli haters”

      Please define “Israel hater”. Just for the laugh. Please!

    • kylebisme
      kylebisme on February 13, 2019, 1:15 am

      It’s not just a matter of lobbying groups, AIPAC rates candidates for individuals to choose who to donate to. In 2018 the US Chamber of Commerce contributions totaled $94,800,000 while Sheldon and Miriam Adelson alone invested $123,254,400 in Republicans and Bloomberg $95,035,140 in Democrats. Of course they among others are buying a lot more than just unyielding support for whatever Israel does with those many millions of dollars, but it’s obvious that some such obscenely wealthy people aren’t buying from anyone who’d prefer our country take a notably more neutral position on such matters.

      https://www.opensecrets.org/overview/topindivs.php?cycle=2018&view=fc

  5. tamarque
    tamarque on February 12, 2019, 9:05 am

    How unfortunate that an image used in one culture (Black) gets used by another (Jews) to try and shut down a progressive Muslim woman. Aside from the fodder used by the pro-Israel lobby, Ilham was targeted before she even took her oath of office. This country, the centrist Dems in particular, are hysterical at being exposed for their lack luster, pro-corporate money/political arrangements. It makes me frustrated that Ilham did not add the different cultural base that she was coming from when making her unnecessary apology.

    I am very tired of pro-israel people carrying on about anti-semitism when they are so full of their own racism that they refuse to look at. Today, alone, I was told I was anti-semetic because I criticize Israeli racist, genocidal practices but that person, a well-heeled white male in UK did not have to think about racism other than my posts which he clearly dislikes. He refuses to see that his abiltiy to not think about race is to the core part of his white skin privilege.

    Maybe if AIPAC and the rest of the Israel Lobby were forced to register as agents of foreign government then the reality of their surreptitious behavior with money and spying would come more to the surface.

  6. rthomas13
    rthomas13 on February 12, 2019, 9:23 am

    Adelson, Singer and so many others will be surprised to hear that their money was not needed to influence the elections because Americans would have voted for pro Israel candidates anyway. They could have saved themselves a lot of cash.

  7. Boomer
    Boomer on February 12, 2019, 10:05 am

    At the Intercept, Mehdi Hasan says that Omar destroyed the taboo on criticism of AIPAC and Israel. I wish it were true, but it doesn’t look that way to me. Quite the contrary.

    https://theintercept.com/2019/02/12/there-is-a-taboo-against-criticizing-aipac-and-ilhan-omar-just-destroyed-it/

  8. Mooser
    Mooser on February 12, 2019, 1:23 pm

    This is indeed shocking news. I always thought the Benjamins were a nice family. I hope that Pres. Trump weighing on their side reduces suspicion.

    • Rusty Pipes
      Rusty Pipes on February 12, 2019, 2:16 pm

      Thank you, Mooser. Now I feel like Emily Latella: “What’s all this I hear about the Benjamins’ baby influencing congress?”

      • Mooser
        Mooser on February 12, 2019, 3:14 pm

        “It’s all about the Benjamins baby,” she wrote”

        Mazel Tov!

    • amigo
      amigo on February 12, 2019, 2:42 pm

      “I always thought the Benjamins were a nice family.” Mooser

      I am told by a reliable source !! ABPAC (American Benjamin Political Action Committe )that the US recognises the New one and only Nation State of the Benjamin People .

      Although the Nascent State has no declared Borders , Donald Trump will build a US embassy and donate Billions of Benjamins to aid the new state in it,s quest to enlarge it,s NewTerritory and make the Jungle Bloom. Benjamin,s Leaders say their new State will last a thousand years.

      The Benjamina people have been subjected to Antibenjaminism and hatred and blood libels and tropes for 2000 years .The creation of a New State may require the ethnic cleansing of the Indigenous people but their leaders say this is a necessary part of giving a Home to the Benjamin People and is the lesser of two evils.

      Benjamin Am Chai.

      The Indigenous People were nowhere to be seen and the GOB stated that they had all left the area voluntarily and abandoned their homes.

  9. gamal
    gamal on February 12, 2019, 7:32 pm

    Michael Howard comments at AHT, he deals with the trope meme.

    Baptism by Fire: Ilhan Omar and the American Zionist Juggernaut

    “A few months ago I wrote an essay explaining why we shouldn’t expect the new crop of progressive lawmakers to stand up to Israel and its spear carriers on Capitol Hill and in the US media. The American people have had Zionist propaganda rammed down their throats for fifty years, ever since Israel embarked on its quest to rob what remains of the Palestinian peoples’ homeland. Since this end can only be achieved through terrorism (see every Israeli military campaign in history), the Zionists within and without Israel have done their level best to manipulate people into believing that their terrorism is in fact anti-terrorism: the Muslims are the terrorists, and we’re simply defending ourselves.

    Depicting Palestinians, and Muslims in general, as homicidal maniacs is essential to maintaining the illusory image of Israel as a vulnerable democratic state encircled by inherently violent actors seeking its destruction—and thus one in need of ideological, diplomatic and military assistance. Hence the modest $4 billion checks Washington cuts to Israel every year. The Muslims-are-terrorists line is also useful when the US decides to spend trillions of dollars it doesn’t have invading and occupying Muslim-majority countries. “Our strategy is this,” George II said in 2007: “We will fight them over there so we do not have to face them in the United States of America.”

    “Them” meaning terrorists, meaning Muslims, who hate our freedom and want to kill us all.

    Don’t you see that Israel is up against a global death cult bent on tearing down Western Civilization? Pay no mind to the fact that militant Zionists—the Irgun—coined the tactic of bombing buses and large crowds in the 1930s. That was before the Zionists had Apache helicopters and nuclear bombs. Again, never mind. History is unimportant. Just listen to George II: “Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.” Here he is again: “Either you’re with us, either you love freedom, and with nations which embrace freedom, or you’re with the enemy.” Israel loves freedom. Do you?

    Until recently, Ilhan Omar, freshman legislator from Minnesota, was unaware of these manufactured truths. So ignorant was she that she actually hinted that the array of pro-Israel lobby groups in Washington, led by AIPAC, give out large sums of money to political campaigns in order to influence US policy in a way that is favorable to … Israel. Obviously that’s code for, “I hate the Jews,” and Omar was duly raked over the coals for her anti-Semitism. The dressing-down was bipartisan: along with American imperialism and corporate supremacy, Israel is one topic on which the Democrats and Republicans always see eye to eye. I wonder why that is?

    Omar folded like a lawn chair. No surprise there. In her weak-kneed apology she wrote: “I am grateful for Jewish allies and colleagues who are educating me on the painful history of anti-Semitic tropes.” Excuse me while I go and vomit. Omar’s accompanying tweet reads: “Listening and learning, but standing strong.” Learning what? How to stop worrying and love Zionist propaganda?

    Rather than consent to being “educated” by Pelosi and Co., Omar ought to have conferred with her fellow Muslim colleague Rashida Tlaib’s, who stood firm after calling Trump a “motherfucker”—an apt description. Alas, Omar submitted to the will of Israel’s American forces. It’s a classic case of baptism by fire (Jews can substitute another ritual). Anyway, it’s difficult to fault Omar: would you want your career destroyed before it got off the ground?

    Proud to have bullied into silence another potential truth-teller, the Democratic Leadership issued a sententious statement lauding Omar’s capitulation. “We are and will always be strong supporters of Israel … because we understand that our support is based on shared values and strategic interests. … Congresswoman Omar’s use of anti-Semitic tropes and prejudicial accusations about Israel’s supporters is deeply offensive.”

    “Trope”: another word abused and ruined by the US political and media establishments.”

    https://ahtribune.com/us/israelgate/2867-ilhan-omar.html

    • RoHa
      RoHa on February 12, 2019, 11:35 pm

      All this stuff about tropes is a load of edible stomach linings from ruminants.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on February 14, 2019, 7:35 pm

        Or an opera singer warming up, still at the half-hyphen stage. (meme-meme-meme-meme)

  10. Ossinev
    Ossinev on February 13, 2019, 2:20 pm

    @amigo
    “The Indigenous People were nowhere to be seen and the GOB stated that they had all left the area voluntarily and abandoned their homes”

    Loved the GOB analogy. Hope it sticks. Then we can get to call the Benjamin People “gobshites”.

    • amigo
      amigo on February 13, 2019, 2:51 pm

      “Loved the GOB analogy. Hope it sticks. Then we can get to call the Benjamin People “gobshites”.” 0ssinev

      Problem with that is that some of my best friends are gobshites and I wouldn,t want to equate them with “Zioshites”. mondonut the Irish Catholic comes to mind.

      But I do like the idea.

  11. jrg
    jrg on February 13, 2019, 10:52 pm

    Keith: “Any empirical data to support his oft repeated claim? ”

    Keith. of course this is a reasonable question and in fact the empirical data exists in abundance:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/10/27/american-anti-semitism-its-getting-worse/?noredirect=on

    https://www.adl.org/what-we-do/anti-semitism/anti-semitism-in-the-us

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/29/us/anti-semitism-attacks.html

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/10/28/pittsburgh-synagogue-shooting-anti-semitism-rise-america/1799933002/

    As you can see, the Pittsburgh massacre was no “anomaly,” and note that the article at the ADL link doesn’t rely on “subjective” statements by Jews or anyone else but on objective figures, but why be more skeptical of reports by Jews than of those by others? Who else is better qualified to detect anti-Semitism than Jews, or racism than blacks, or Islamophobia than Muslims, or homophobia than gays etc.?

    • Talkback
      Talkback on February 14, 2019, 8:43 am

      jrg: “Who else is better qualified to detect anti-Semitism than Jews, or racism than blacks, or Islamophobia than Muslims, or homophobia than gays etc.?”

      Or Zionist genocidal policies than Palestinians. But antisemitism since 1945 is worse, isn’t it? When was the last time when Nonjews did to Jews what Jews are doing to Palestinians/Bedouins?

    • RoHa
      RoHa on February 14, 2019, 10:02 pm

      “Who else is better qualified to detect anti-Semitism than Jews, or racism than blacks, or Islamophobia than Muslims, or homophobia than gays etc.?”

      There was a time when we expected the truth of accusations to be tested by neutral third parties. Happily, those days are gone.

      One need only point a finger, and the wretches will be burned at the stake.

      As will anyone who suggests that the truth of accusations should be tested.

    • Keith
      Keith on February 23, 2019, 4:30 pm

      JRG- “Keith. of course this is a reasonable question and in fact the empirical data exists in abundance:”

      No it doesn’t. And the ADL numbers are nothing more than a compilation of reported incidents that Zionist Jews claim as anti-Semitic. All of your links add up to nothing more than relatively privileged and safe Jews proclaiming themselves to be society’s victims. An unshakable sense of victimhood is a core part of your ideology and persona.

      JRG- “As you can see, the Pittsburgh massacre was no “anomaly,”

      Of course it was. It was the largest killing of Jews in the history of the country, not at all typical. A headline from Haaretz: “Lethal attacks on U.S. Jews in their homeland have been very rare, with Saturday’s mass shooting in Pittsburgh more than doubling the total number of fatalities” https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-from-lynchings-to-mass-shootings-the-history-of-deadly-attacks-on-jews-in-america-1.6601089 You won’t see headlines like that in the US.

      As for mass shootings, we seem to have entered an era of mass shootings such as the one in Las Vegas and the multiple school shootings. Violence is a relative thing. That is why relative Jewish safety can only be determined statistically. Unfortunately, the data for Jews is included with the data for all whites which is relatively low compared to people of color. If we factor in economic data, Jews are probably safer than the average non-Jewish white, the 11 Jews in Pittsburgh notwithstanding. Am I wrong? The ADL has the resources to compile this type of statistical information but chooses not to, or at least not make the results public. Any honest statistical evaluation of social well-being would likely show that Jews, as a group, are relatively privileged and safe. But that wouldn’t fit with your victimhood meme would it?

  12. jrg
    jrg on February 14, 2019, 11:40 pm

    Talkback: “When was the last time when Nonjews did to Jews what Jews are doing to Palestinians/Bedouins?”

    The Zionists are doing a piss-poor job of committing genocide in view of the fact that the Palestinian birthrate is distinctly higher than the Israeli one, and the Pal population is pretty much equal to the Jewish one if you include the refugees. Native Americans would have loved to reproduce at the same rate vis-a-vis white in the 19th century, and Armenians vis-a-vis Turks during WWI, and, well Jews vis-a-vis Germans during WWII. Israel’s misdeed vs. the Palestinians are serious enough without going over the top and alleging genocide. This is not to say that some extreme Zionist fanatics would not have loved to exterminate all Palestinians W. of the Jordan River, but in fact there are no counterparts to the Einsatsgruppen or the gas chambers in the Middle East, and to say that there are simply invites ridicule and suspicion that those who claim as much are really projecting a desire to do that to Jews–again.

    • Talkback
      Talkback on February 15, 2019, 7:04 am

      jrg: “The Zionists are doing a piss-poor job of committing genocide in view of …”

      I’ve got to stop you right there jrg, because you are doing a “piss-poor job” of either understanding or denying genocide. Genocide does not not necessarily signify mass-killings according to Lemkin who coined the term. And even if you think it does it is not logical to claim that a genocide is not happening, only because the birth rate is higher than the killing rate. Hitler’s genocide would have still been a genocide, if the numbers were lower than the wordwide Jewish birth rate.

      Just read and you will see that Israel actually does commit genocide:
      The Genocide of the Palestinian People: An International Law and Human Rights Perspective
      https://ccrjustice.org/genocide-palestinian-people-international-law-and-human-rights-perspective

      I have come to the conclusion that this is Zionism’s genocide slogan:
      “A land without a people for a people without a land”

      And the Zionists are actually doing an excellent job of committing their slow and incremental genocide under the radar.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on February 16, 2019, 1:21 am

        “Genocide does not not necessarily signify mass-killings according to Lemkin who coined the term.”

        And I think that was a mistake. In every other “-cide” crime, there is always actual killing or attempted killing. Successful “-cide” crimes are punished more severely than attempted “-cide” crimes.

        Thus, we automatically assume that genocide involves killing, and set our moral condemnation accordingly.

        It is confusing to have a set of crimes, not all of which involve actual or even attempted killing, lumped together under a single term, and doubly so when that term implies killing.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on February 16, 2019, 12:48 pm

        RoHa: “And I think that was a mistake. In every other “-cide” crime, there is always actual killing or attempted killing.”

        Lemkin: “It may be accomplished by wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health and dignity. When these means fail the machine gun can always be utilized as a last resort.”

        See Israel.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on February 16, 2019, 9:42 pm

        When they get to the machine guns, it is definitely killing. But not all the crimes lumped under “genocide” involve killing.

      • annie
        annie on February 16, 2019, 10:44 pm

        It is confusing to have a set of crimes, not all of which involve actual or even attempted killing, lumped together under a single term, and doubly so when that term implies killing.

        are there any examples of accusations of the crime of genocide thus far that have not involved killing?

        Article 3 defines the crimes that can be punished under the convention:

        (a) Genocide;
        (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
        (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
        (d) Attempt to commit genocide;
        (e) Complicity in genocide.
        — Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 3[4]

        while it might seem confusing, “Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group” is a crime that can be punished under the convention if it is carried out in an attempt to commit genocide. same with deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part, or causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group. if the intent is to destroy the group or incite others to destroy the group, then it is included. killing people in such as way as to create plausible deniability, for example, to kill protestors at a distance week after week after week, especially young people, under the pretext of defense, when clearly they pose no clear and present danger, how many decades can you pull that off and still maintain plausible deniability. especially when some of your leaders are calling for all of them to be destroyed.

        while it may seem confusing all of those circumstances are a means to an end if the intent is to destroy a group. especially when carried out in combination with eachother.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on February 16, 2019, 11:30 pm

        ‘are there any examples of accusations of the crime of genocide thus far that have not involved killing?’

        I don’t know, but even if there aren’t, that does not preclude such accusations in the future.

        In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

        (a) Killing members of the group;

        (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

        (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

        (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

        (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

        All of these are reprehensible acts. But only a and c involve loss of life.

        If I (e) kidnap a million Mixambiguan children, and get them adopted by Oblivians who will bring them up as Oblivians, is my crime as bad as that of (a) killing a million Mixambiguans?

        If I (d) pour contraceptive into the Mixambiguan water supply, is that as severe a crime as (c) driving the Mixambiguans into a desert where they cannot find water?

        And they are all grossly immoral acts in themselves. Why does the “intent to destroy…a … group” make them any worse?

        If I slaughter a couple of million Mixambiguans just to loot their property, am I any better or worse than the person who slaughters exactly the same number in an attempt to wipe out Mixambiguans?

        All these acts are – or should be, in any semi-civilized society – crimes punishable by law. I thoroughly approve of making them illegal under international law.

        But the questions I have raised are reasons for my claim that it is morally confusing – and perhaps legally confusing – to lump them all together as a single crime.

      • annie
        annie on February 17, 2019, 1:27 am

        If I (d) pour contraceptive into the Mixambiguan water supply, is that as severe a crime as (c) driving the Mixambiguans into a desert where they cannot find water?

        And they are all grossly immoral acts in themselves. Why does the “intent to destroy…a … group” make them any worse?

        If I slaughter a couple of million Mixambiguans just to loot their property, am I any better or worse than the person who slaughters exactly the same number in an attempt to wipe out Mixambiguans?

        i’m starting to understand your confusion. you’re all about ‘what crime is worse’ (more “severe”). try thinking of it as a game of ‘name that crime’.

        imagine there are 2 cases before the court. in both cases a wife carefully planned her husband’s murder. one, slowly with poison in which he suffered minimum pain but experience diminished capacity until he lost consciousness and died. in the other she immobilized him with a drug where he couldn’t move but was conscious and she slowly dismembered him while he witnessed his own dismemberment. both crimes are premeditated murder even though one was more vicious than the other. but the intent of murder was the same and both were premeditated. in the game of ‘name that crime’ they would share a same definition of premeditated murder. in the game of ‘what crime is worse’ the dismemberment is worse.

        the ‘name that crime of genocide’ it doesn’t (or shouldn’t) pit one genocide against the other. if it did one could argue cambodia was worse than nazi holocaust by the method of execution (i’d go for a gas chamber over a pickax any day). it’s also not determined by the amount of people killed. the crime of genocide, like that of pre meditated murder, is determined by intent, not by degree, method of execution or by worse-ness.

        imagine 3 wars, all killed the same amount of people. one is determined to be “scorched earth”(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth), the other “genocide”. the 3rd both. all are determined to be a crimes and illegal. but they are defined differently. can you tell why? erase considerations of “Why does … make them any worse” and just focus on “name that crime”.

        get worse and more severe out of your mind and focus on name that crime. focus on motivation and intent.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus on February 17, 2019, 2:17 am

        RoHa,
        //
        Correct; the miscellany of actions listed by Lemberg are the different steps needed to accomplish the annihilation of a particular genus (extended sense) as a people. Meaning not necessarily all individual members but the record of territorial presence, the living language, the monuments, the individual and collective property, any human rights including that of remembering one’s parents, etc.
        //
        One example is the genocide of Native Americans, of course.
        //
        Another highly successful example is the policy started by th Union and Progress military clique under the Ottomans, continued by the same bunch under the shingle of the Turkish Republic. In less than a century, it managed to reduce the number of “ethnic” (in non-US parlance “national” minorities from over 40% overall (100% in some areas) to less than 1% (except the Kurds!) Now that the remaining non-Kurdish minorities are no longer a threat to the Turkish goal they relaxed the policies but it’s still more than doubtful that they have given up the intent to disappear the Kurdish people, too.
        //
        Now, this has involved millions of plain murders, of course, but the main tool was social engineering, government pressure, re-structuring, etc. That, IMHO, is what makes the collection of acts listed in the convention to a single crime.
        //
        The Zionists have declared that their aim was genocide in 1897: replacing the resident people by colonial invaders is one definition of genocide; “A Land without People for a People without Land” is a full genocide program. As shown by the 120 years of its implementation.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on February 17, 2019, 2:25 am

        Name the crime.

        In your examples of murder, the crime is homicide. In both cases, the victim is killed.

        We usually consider crimes that lead to people being killed as more serious than crimes which do not lead to people being killed. (We call them murder,manslaughter, culpable homicide, etc.)

        We do not use the same names for crimes in which people do not get killed.

        So “severity of effect on the victim” does play a role in our naming.

        But in some of the crimes included under “genocide”, the victims are not killed. It seems wrong to me to class them along with the killing crimes simply because they have the same intent.

        Intent certainly plays a role, but that role is within the overall category. It discriminates between (e.g.) murder and involutary manslaughter through criminal negligence.

        We do not group GBH and murder together simply because they both have the same intent to harm the victim.

        And I do not see why the intent to exterminate the group is importantly different from other evil intentions.

        In other cases, the question of intent is one of whether the intention was to do unjustified harm. Looting the victims and exterminating the group are both unjustified harm.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on February 17, 2019, 11:02 am

        RoHa: “When they get to the machine guns, it is definitely killing. But not all the crimes lumped under “genocide” involve killing.”

        It doens’t have, too. It is not about killing individuals, but about destroying a people as a whole or in part. The latter can be achieved by preventing them from having children for example. This may not sound as ‘spectacular’ as mass killing, but it is still genocide.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on February 17, 2019, 9:32 pm

        “It is not about killing individuals, but about destroying a people as a whole or in part. ”

        And this is why jrg gets confused. In every other case of a “-cide” crime, the crime is killing people, so we naturally assume that genocide involves killing people. The term is misleading.

        If all the crimes listed are to be included under a single name, that name should not have had a “-cide” ending.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on February 18, 2019, 8:21 am

        RoHa: “If all the crimes listed are to be included under a single name, that name should not have had a “-cide” ending.”

        Genocide is about killing a people. This killing does not necesseraly include mass killings of its members. Preventing their reproduction for example would do the same job. You are still thinking that Genocide is about mass-killing members of this people. Think people as whole or in part, not individuals.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on February 19, 2019, 12:53 am

        “Think people as whole or in part, not individuals.”

        Every other “-cide” crime involves killing of living individuals. A “people as a whole” is not a living individual. Destroying it is not a literal killing.*

        So Lemkin made a mistake in calling his collection of crimes “genocide”. That term makes people think there is killing involved.
        He should have coined another term for it.

        (*Metaphors are great for poetry, but bad for law and worse for ethics. That is why I protest against such terms as “national suicide”.)

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus on February 19, 2019, 1:53 am

        RoHa,

        Biocide and ecocide could be rejected as relatively newfangled, but the venerable “liberticide” remains. No literal killing.
        //
        Besides, “coincide” deserves serious study by those of strained means like yours truly. Excide, as contemplated by some divorcees, is definitively homicidal, though.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on February 19, 2019, 10:16 am

        RoHa. “Every other “-cide” crime involves killing of living individuals.”

        This one doesn’t exclude it. There are methods to kill a people without necesseraly killing its members.

        Roha: “A “people as a whole” is not a living individual.”

        Correct. That’s why it’s called genocide and not homocide.

        RoHa: “Destroying it is not a literal killing.* ”

        Destroying doesn’t exclude literal killing.

        RoHa: “So Lemkin made a mistake in calling his collection of crimes “genocide”. That term makes people think there is killing involved.”

        People also think that Apartheid only means the methods that were used in South Africa. Not the problem of the term either. They should read and understand the definition in both cases.

        RoHa: “He should have coined another term for it.”

        Nope. The term is absolutely perfect. It acknowledges that a people can even be destroyed without killing its individuals. Allthough I can’t think of any case that didn’t involve massacres and mass killings.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976 on February 19, 2019, 5:32 pm

        Martin Mennecke ‘The Crime of Genocide and International Law’ is interesting. The UN definition has received objections for being too narrow and for being too wide.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on February 19, 2019, 7:28 pm

        I can assure you that I treat all coins with care and respect. Definitely no chance of coincide.

        Biocides are, of course, substances, not crimes.

        As far as I can tell, ecocide is not yet a crime in any legal system. If it can be managed without any killing (noise or light pollution, perhaps) then it would be misnamed. No reason why it could not be called “destruction of environment”. (One of the major modern destroyers of the environment, the appalling wind turbines, does a great deal of killing.)

        “Liberticide” is an old word, but, again, does not seem to be a crime. Common law systems do have a crime called “deprivation of liberty”.

        Fortunately, we have not yet been deprived of Liberty. Derry and Toms and Gamages are long gone, but Liberty is still trading.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on February 19, 2019, 7:33 pm

        “The term is absolutely perfect. It acknowledges that a people can even be destroyed without killing its individuals.”

        On the contrary, it implies, by analogy with other “-cide” crimes, that individuals are killed.

        “Ethnic destruction” or “destruction of a people” would have been less misleading terms.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on February 20, 2019, 8:18 am

        RoHa: “On the contrary, it implies, by analogy with other “-cide” crimes, that individuals are killed. ”

        Nope. It’s called “genocide” not “homocide” or “mass homocide”.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on February 20, 2019, 10:02 pm

        This is getting silly. I’ll make my point one more time, as clearly as I can, and then stop.

        A coin is not a literally living thing, so it cannot be literally killed. It would be a mistake to call the crime of defacing coin of the realm “coincide”, since that term implies that coins are getting literally killed.

        A genus is not a literally living thing, so it cannot be literally killed. It is a mistake to call the crime of destroying a genus “genocide”, since that term implies that a genus is getting literally killed.

        This is not a mere linguistic quibble.*

        First, it leads the unwary to assume that it means the members of the genus are being killed. When there is no killing of the members, the denial of genocide sounds plausible.

        Second, it leads even many of the wary to apply their moral judgements about killing to cases where there is no killing.

        This second problem also applies to such metaphorical expressions as “national suicide”. Metaphors are misleading both for law and ethics.

        And I will say no more about the term.

        In respect of our particular interest, calling what is being done to the Palestinians “genocide” may be useful as a means of applying legal pressure to Israel.

        That point aside, I do not care whether it is legally genocide, or classed as an actual attempt to destroy the Palestinian “people”. It is profoundly wrong, whatever we call it, and whatever evil motive drives it.

        (*As if a linguistic quibble could be “mere”!)

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus on February 21, 2019, 5:57 am

        RoHa,

        It’s not getting silly, it’s getting serious. Because “mere” linguistic quibbles are never mere, therefore never “quibbles”. The question revolves around usage as a quasi-enemy of logic. Usage has established ecocide and genocide recently, while the venerable roots of liberticide are from the Original Revolution (which of course was French.) Our different takes depend on the weight of sociolinguistic interest for each of us. Otherwise said, I fully agree with you on how usage should be; usage itself does not agree with either of us.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on February 21, 2019, 8:41 am

        RoHa: “A genus is not a literally living thing, so it cannot be literally killed. It is a mistake to call the crime of destroying a genus “genocide”, since that term implies that a genus is getting literally killed.”

        Robert Limkin:
        “More often [genocide] refers to a coordinated plan aimed at destruction of the essential foundations of the life of national groups so that these groups wither and die like plants that have suffered a blight. The end may be accomplished by the forced disintegration of political and social institutions, of the culture of the people, of their language, their national feelings and their religion. It may be accomplished by wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health and dignity. When these means fail the machine gun can always be utilized as a last resort. Genocide is directed against a national group as an entity and the attack on individuals is only secondary to the annihilation of the national group to which they belong.”
        https://ccrjustice.org/genocide-palestinian-people-international-law-and-human-rights-perspective

        This is exactly what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. Through ethnic cleansing, half a century of occupation and with it the long term denial of the right to self determination, repeated military assaults on Gaza and large scale destruction of livelyhood accompanied by official Israeli statements expressly favoring the elimination of Palestinians.

        To see it is to know it.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on February 21, 2019, 10:41 pm

        I said I would write no more, but I cannot forbear from pointing out that “these groups wither and die” is a metaphor.

        Metaphors are an obstacle to clear thinking about ethics.

    • Talkback
      Talkback on February 15, 2019, 2:18 pm

      Btw. Just another aspect of Israel’s genocidal policy:

      Video: Slow death for Gaza cancer patients
      https://electronicintifada.net/content/video-slow-death-gaza-cancer-patients/26661

      Palestinian battling cancer is denied exit from Gaza for treatment
      https://972mag.com/palestinian-cancer-denied-exit-gaza-erez/140062/

    • amigo
      amigo on February 23, 2019, 5:36 pm

      “and the Pal population” jrg

      Too lazy to write Palestinian Population.

      Yup , you are a zionist.

      Your bigotry is showing jrg.

      what if we wrote “the Jew population.”

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