The Ma’an news agency reports that eight congresspeople entered Gaza this morning. This would be the biggest delegation yet. Amazing (if true). Xinhua is reporting 8, too, on a low profile visit. I’m trying to get names and increase the profile… One report has it that Stephen Lynch, Democrat of Massachusetts, is in the delegation; his office could not confirm.
They will see the devastation and the persecution. They will see the human beings treated like animals. They will see the prisoners’ children who have never met their fathers. They will see farmers who are shot at from frightening high-tech towers when they try and harvest lettuce.
They will see the factories wantonly demolished (like the tile factory below) and meet articulate, appealing people, such as Fares Akram, the man in that picture, who were denied even the ability to flee last winter, and who saw family members killed (his dad, a judge).
All these politicians will make statements about rocket attacks on Sderot, Israel. But some of them will be inwardly radicalized. Many will come back and take on the Israel lobby with strength.
Lets hope that they are liberalized, rather than radicalized.
Liberal is the approach of “all are human”. Radical is the approach of partisan “my side are human only”.
A liberal might believe that all beings being inherently good, will eventually accomplish peace. A radical might believe the same, but also that humanity needed a kick up the arse to overcome inherent inertia.
When dissent favors the same side, rather than bearing mutual witness, over decades, the radical approach CEASES to be universal humanist, and instead becomes partisan.
Even AFSC.
I had the same discussion with Michael Lerner, who described that Israel needed “tough-love”.
The art of practising “tough love”, is that BOTH words are equally important. If you neglect one, as adjective and as verb, you fail.
At some near point, “tough-love” ceases to be a helpful intervention, and becomes a habitual animosity.
UPDATE:
A group of eight U.S. congressmen toured Gaza briefly on Monday morning, according to UNRWA, the U.N. organization in charge of Palestinian refugee issues. There was no press coverage of their visit, and the representatives returned to Israel after several hours in Gaza.
They included Stephen Lynch of Massachusetts and Joe Courtney of Connecticut, both Democrats.
UNRWA officials said the delegation did not meet with Hamas, the Islamic militant group that has ruled Gaza for more than two years. The U.S., along with Israel and the EU, consider Hamas a terrorist group.
That means Hamas is a terror group whose goal is terrorism.
The Palestinian perople freely voted in a party whose platform includes Genocide.
Is there any reason to believe these people are any better or different than the Germans who assisted Hitler in his genocidal quest?
The Arabs of Gaza voted to kill Jews. The goal of the Gazan people is genocide.
funny saxon.. i could have sworn it’s been israel behaving as a terrorist state for some time, especially this past january… surely you can come up with some rationale why israels terrorist actions are in some way different.. is it because they are state sponsored?? that would make israel a state sponsored country, which is different from a group but for all intents and purposes the same, with the exception they have more assets to draw from..
Israelis have freely voted for successive leaders who have actually carried out a program of ethnic cleansing and genocide against the Palestinians for decades, many of these Israeli leaders were terrorists even before Israel declared itself a state (and continued to be state sponsors of terrorism afterwards). Shall we punish all Israelis for this?
Liberal is the approach of “all are human”. Radical is the approach of partisan “my side are human only”.
I think your definition of breakdown of the two options as ‘liberal’ and ‘radical’ is false. Were abolitionists ‘radical’? We didn’t take a ‘liberal’ approach with slavers. We hunted them down on the high seas and shot or hanged them. I am not advocating shooting or hanging colonists. However, it is long past time for asking nicely. Just because the colonists and their supporters “are all human” doesn’t mean we should not take aggressive measures against them. If any other group were threatening US national security the way they are, exactly that would have happened long ago. It’s time for the kid gloves to come off.
Your “kid gloves” have been off for a very long time.
Have you succeeded at changing anything for the better.
I again contest that the gloves off by Hamas brought onslaught onto Gazan civilians, while most in the Hamas militias hid.
And, that that CHOICE of strategy got Netanyahu into a position to lead the government, rather than Livni, which would have been about as big a difference as Bush vs Gore.
Do you think there is any validity to the charge that Hamas is USING Gazan civilians for its own partisan ends?
Of course it is, just like Israel uses victims of terrorism for its own partisan ends. That’s politics. So what?
And, also using the American and European left?
The same left that loved Stalin.
Liberal is the approach the radical preaches…to the other side. Boycott, isolate, embargo, wipe the Zionist parasite off the face of the earth. Liberal enough, Dick?
I agree theoretically, Richard, but that’s not how a discourse works. The pro-Palestinian view has been so marginalized that to see Gaza creates anger and determination and the need to break thru in the American conversation. My side here is still isolated and pushed out. It is simply a fact that many people return radicalized. I’m sure this happened in the South during segregation.
Yes one wants to avoid revolutionary fervor, dehumanization, and all the rest. it’s a struggle. But the obduracy of our political structures on this issue causes radicalization.
And yes I find Anon’s comment about “parasite” obnoxious and anti-Semitic. I’m not deleting it because it’s evidence of the viciousness on my side, and ought to be known and condemned. wouldn’t even leave his name…
I don’t think that anon is “on your side”. At least I didn’t interpret his/her comment that way. I thought it was an attempt to dehumanize “liberal” by claiming that what is demanded is a dehumanization of zionists. I thought the statement was made by a zionist claiming to “know” what “liberals” want.
I don’t think there is any “theoretically”.
Thanks for commenting.
I don’t live in New York, but in very liberal Western Massachusetts. I don’t read right-wing blogs, and the furthest right that I read is the New York Times (which I find informative, not authoritative, as I’ve stated). In my world, the voice that is silenced is the voice of liberal mutual humanization.
I know, as distinct from guessing, that the escalation of conflict comes from partisan approaches. The success at realizing improvement in Palestinians’ lives, including social justice, will only incidentally happen through solidarity dissent.
The role of Hamas and the at least partially opportunistic relationship of Hamas to the civilians of Gaza is not incidental.
And, the history of 90′s and early 2000′s strategically timed terror bombings, designed to derail peace talks between the PA and Israel, is also not incidental.
The effort for mutual humanization is THE struggle.
As you know, I was very disappointed with the absence of really probing questions at the Hamas press conference. I get how that could happen. There are MANY influences that urge conformity. You and others were in a potentially dangerous situation in a very foreign country, and among informed and very strong-minded cadre.
Phil, when an anonymous poster named “anon” starts talking about “wiping the Zionist parasite off the earth,” the entire site is tainted by the broad brush of an Ahmadinejad-like declaration. Does WordPress or Foliovision offer the option of having viewers vote thumbs up/thumbs down to disavow people like anon? Otherwise, can we report virulent posts to WordPress for deletion (without chewing up all your time as a ‘moderator’?).
Phil, your viewpoint hasn’t been “so marginalized ” – YOU have marginalized yourselves. Huffpo and Youtube even think you guys are too loony.
If you would face realities instead of anti-Jewish dreams, you might get somewhere. If the Arabs would do the same, they might get somewhere, too.
Richard, funny you should mention the timning of the bombings. Actually, if Israel had not created Hamas, which they most definitely did, there might not have been any bombings during any supposed peace process. Than again, the peace process has always been a joke, to look at it any differently is to be mildly mentally retarded.
Second, if you are going to talk about radicalization, you going to have to ask the question who creates this condition? If you are going to talk historically, it is best to post facts about a period, not fantasy. Take for instance, Israel cannot run a “break the bones” campaign which was so brutal that it caused the Red Cross and other organizations to cry out – as soldiers beat beat children to pulps, breaking their bones like twigs!
If you are going to wax eloquent about the second intifada, it is best not to pass over the approximately fist six months, where non-violence in protest was the watchword. However, rather than a the 3 to 1 kill ratio which remaining, it tuned into a 10 to 0 ratio. As people peacefully protested millions of rounds of live ammunition was fired into unarmed peaceful protesters . So, lets not be too free with the word radicalize, unless you are going to apply it to reality.
Is that too much to ask?
oscar wrote:
What liberals/humanists are, first and foremost, is rational truth-tellers, who understand that intellectual integrity compels them to assess truth value objectively and take their stand on the side of logic, truthfully supported.
Consider Ahmadinejad, for instance: the truth of what he is reported to have said is that “the zionist regime will disappear from the pages of history;” ie, zionism will fail of its own internal contradictions, much as USSR failed.
It is also rational and supportable by the evidence to state that Ahmadinejad has served as a useful idiot for Israeli right-wing propagandists, and that the real Ahmadinejad is lost somewhere in the fog of hasbara.
It is important to include in an evaluation of Ahmadinejad the reality that, as an Iranian government leader, it is his obligation to ensure the sovereign integrity of his people and Iranian values; that he believes (not without sound reasons) that Iran and its values are under threat of subversion from zionists, abetted by AIPAC-influenced US Congress.
Thus, it is neither rational, nor liberal/humanist, to reduce Ahmadinejad to a caricature that stands for “wipe XXXXXX off the map.”
Jake,
Please link to the articles on Huffpo that suggest this blog is too loony?
There are no anti-Jewish sentiments on this blog. You are just exploiting Judaism to give legitimacy to your extremist ideology, the way a little brat hides behind his mother’s skirt.
Shingo, it was Huffpo’s REMOVING links to MondoLies which tell the story.
And if you don’t see any anti-Jewish sentiment anywhere on MondoLies, then this explains why you are known as ShingoLiar.
“What do I owe the Israel lobby?” The growing disdain of your constituency…
Hey Phil, do you seriously deny Israel is parasitic? China is apparently oppressing those Uighurs, but we’re not all mixed up in it. Not so Israel-Palestine, and media dual loyalists further dictate that we’re morally obligated to be in the middle of it, of course on the wrong side. I conclude China may be a nasty regime, but Israel is a parasite.
I think Phil was reacting to the metaphor of parasite due to old echoes in his head
of Goebbels speech. Phil has never really looked into why anyone would call World Jewry a parasite in the first place. For example, why Marx did. But given the
abuse of the term (the extent of abuse is debatable, and get gets more so as more
historical data is exposed to chew on), Phil’s knee-jerk reaction is understandable.
So, now, you raise a good question about the Uighurs and the American and especially the Jewish American lack of response to their plight. I don’t think
the USA’s blood, sweat, tears, and tax dollars are involved in what China is doing to the Uighurs. But they certainly are involved in what Israel is doing. So, would be interesting to see Phil Weiss respond to this reality, which he already recognizes. Given his many articles on his blog, he should address your parasite figure of speech in more than the dismissive way he has–you have made a good point. A parasite is a being who lives off another. Time for Phil to address your comment
as more than totally glib.
Anon, your tone has improved dramatically, but still needs a bit of work. You can criticize Israel for taking $3 billion a year in US taxpayer monies to decimate the Palestinian civilian population, and you can say that it’s not a “special” relationship, but a parasitic one. But tone down the “wipe the parasites of the face of the earth” kind of rhetoric. It not only undercuts your position, but it diminishes the credibility of the Mondoweiss posters who seek an intellectually honest and clear-eyed debate on the topic.
I’m also sickened by the unwillingness of Netanyahu to stop settlement expansion, and to evade any responsibility to reconcile as qualitative peers (if not equal in power) with the PA.
Lovely,
You are back to your genocidal references. “A virulent disease”.
No, in fact human, flawed and inspiring at the same time.
Richard, not that I like anyone (including myself) called a virulent disease, but I would like a little give and take in reference to phrases used. After all, by prominent Israelis, Palestinians have been called cockroaches, animals walking on two legs, no human, and a various sort of diseases. So, I know we are on a blog site, and we not be using these phrases – but in some ways they are mutually used.
I should probably say that I will never personally use these phrases, but unfortunately understand why they are used in some instances. that is just natural logic, it is not agreement. It is just like studying motivations, if I study the motivations of the Nazis, do I agree with them? Of course not, it is just elementary rationality to do so.
Thats a bullshit rationalization. “Lovely” is using it here, now in my living room.
In Phil’s as well.
You make me think that you two might be plants, proving the point about the left.
@LI
And they wonder why this site is called a hate site.
No one wonders why this is considered a hate site.
I agree that a reputation feature ought to be added to the comments section.
It really helps the repuation of the blog if the users can make it clear that they find a comment useless or offensive. A vicious post doesn’t merit a reply, but a thumbs down option lets visitors see that it is not representative of the readership.
Its a stupid popularity test, most often used to enforce political correctness of the stacked room. Thankfully it was eliminated.
re: Hamas, any thoughts on this ?? link to usip.org
The dialogue here has risen dramatically in pitch since Phil and Adam gave the site a facelift. Coincidence? Or is it that the other side is losing so badly in the court of world opinion that the hasbara has simply resorted to nyah-nyah-nyah yo’ momma name-calling?
The site will become completely useless if Phil allows Israelis (and their sidekicks) to continue posting here, for the sole purpose of disrupting discourse.
He’s acting like the IDF, standing on the sidelines while the settler vermin commit their vandalism.
The hasbara disinformationists are doing an excellent job of discrediting their cause.
Let them continue to spew, I say.
There are already contacts between the US administration and Hamas through immediaries, because there are contacts between Israel and Hamas. One should never take what governments say at their word.
What is more, the UK will end up having direct contacts with Hamas, and sooner than anyone thinks. Hamas isn’t going anywhere. That’s the main lesson of the Gaza war.
That and the fact that the US keeps hurting Abbas by having Keith Dayton “training” Palestinian security forces.
Defeat eitan, or truth will be next.
Defeat eitan, or Israel will tear down the whole world, not just the USA, which it has been doing for forty-plus years.
RoFL. You must really think Americans are really stupid. Exactly how is America next?
They are “coming to get us” Colin…lol “If we do not get them there they will come to get us here,” and all other types of assorted nonsense.
Just you, Colin, just you.
yikes, lovelyisraelis is like the eitan anti body… you 2 are suited for one another… perhaps you are the same person playing games at mondoweiss….
…
I’m all ears. Why don’t you give us a hint of how YOU think this can be resolved. Two states sounds lovely. One state sounds even better. I do not believe that you think either one of those possibilities exists in your wildest dreams. Neither of those solutions can possibly come to pass with a Nazified Israeli state in the Mid East. There is NO WAY and you know it. Phil knows it. Everyone here knows it. The Palestinians will be wiped out. Or the Israelis will. The rest is a hoax.