A few months ago, I authored a post on the fiction that when Israel withdrew from two decades of military occupation of southern Lebanon in 2000, Hezbollah responded with thousands of rockets rained down on Israeli communities. At the time, I cited false statements to that effect made by Michael Oren in a NY Times op-ed and Ethan Bronner in a Times article (links provided in that post). Unsurprisingly, Bibi Netanyahu has now joined in, quoted in today’s Ha’aretz:
"We will not allow the firing of thousands of rockets and missiles from Palestinian territories into Israel as was the case when we pulled out of Lebanon and Gaza.”
This is not an insignificant “mistake” but a concerted effort to convince the world that Israeli withdrawal is perversely punished by renewed Arab violence against civilians. Bibi, who has no desire to see the talks succeed, whatever that means, is clearly trying to set the stage to sabotage the negotiations with refusal to withdraw and/or unreasonable demands for retaining control after withdrawal. This is how history gets rewritten.
This is how history gets rewritten.
Haven’t you figured it out yet. This is how history is written. The zionist have so far written the first draft of history for the last 60 years.
For those of US who were not in Palestine from 1890 to 1948 and beyond, internet is the only way to confirm the doubt and suspicion to the history written and disseminated by Israel. Without the instant corrective measure provided by Internet, we still be believing that there no human in Negev and around until Israel came to plant its seeds.
Sorry , it shuld read us instead of US.
No mention of course of the 7,700 shells Israel fired into Gaza from September 2005 (the month they withdrew) till May the following year. Again, we’re supposed to accept that this is an irrelevant detail.
The myth of Hizbullah rockets raining down on Israeli civilians was blown out of the water by Jonathan Cook that was in Nazareth during the 2006 war. He described that it was Israel that shelled civilian targets. A Hizbullah rocket fell on Nazareth killing 2 Arabs for which Nasrallah apologized but it turned out that Nazareth, like so many other Galilee communities containede military installations and most probably what Hizbullah was aiming at. He wrote:
“… But to anyone living in Nazareth, it was clear the rocket attack on the city was not indiscriminate either. It was a mistake — something Nasrallah quickly confirmed in one of his televised speeches. The real target of the strike was known to Nazarenes: close by the city are a military weapons factory and a large military camp. Hizbullah knows the locations of these military targets because this year, as was widely reported in the Israeli media at the time, it managed to fly an unmanned drone over the Galilee photographing the area in detail — employing the same spying techniques used for many years by Israel against Lebanon.
One of Hizbullah’s first rocket attacks after the outbreak of hostilities — after Israel went on the bombing offensive by blitzing targets across Lebanon — was on a kibbutz overlooking the border with Lebanon. Some foreign correspondents noted at the time (though given Israel’s press censorship laws I cannot confirm) that the rocket strike targeted a top-secret military traffic control centre built into the Galilee’s hills.
There are hundreds of similar military installations next to or inside Israel’s northern communities. Some distance from Nazareth, for example, Israel has built a large weapons factory virtually on top of an Arab town — so close to it, in fact, that the factory’s perimeter fence is only a few metres from the main building of the local junior school. There have been reports of rockets landing close to that Arab community.
How these kind of attacks are being unfairly presented in the Israeli and foreign media was highlighted recently when it was widely reported that a Hizbullah rocket had landed “near a hospital” in a named Israeli city, not the first time that such a claim has been made over the past few weeks. I cannot name the city, again because of Israel’s press censorship laws and because I also want to point out that very “near” that hospital is an army camp. The media suggested that Hizbullah was trying to hit the hospital, but it is also more than possible it was trying to strike — and may have struck — the army camp…”
link to jkcook.net
Walid, I have a lot of respect for Cook, and indeed for you, but I recall reading Cook’s article that you cite and being unimpressed. I thought it was fairly clear and undisputed that Hezbollah targeted civilian areas with its rockets. Cook may have found instances in which they apparently targeted military installations as well, and it cannot reasonably be disputed that Israel’s attacks against civilians were both deliberate and far costlier in human life. But he did not provide a convincing defense that Hezbollah did not target civilians. I do not recall even Hezbollah making that claim. Instead, Nasrallah was proclaiming that his rockets could reach farther and farther into Israeli territory, and they did.
My point was more chronological, that Hezbollah’s rockets were a reaction to, and not the cause of, the Israeli attack. Israel did not have to attack to stop the rockets, which were not falling. Israel pre-planned the attack, then used a border incident as a pretext for starting the war they intended to start. Throughout the “war,” Hezbollah made it clear that its rockets would stop if Israel withdrew its troops and stopped bombing Lebanon. Israel, with the explicit support of the US, rejected calls for a mutual cease-fire for weeks, running up the death toll on both sides (much more in Lebanon obviously). Now they are hoping that their target audience confuses the chronology and recalls that the rockets fired during the war were actually fired before it.
I don’t believe that Israel’s attack justified Hezbollah’s rockets at civilian areas. I think that’s a line that should not be crossed. However, it is grossly hypocritical for Israelis to complain about it while justifying their own far more murderous violence. Hezbollah does not have the unlimited right to self-defense any more than Israel does. Targeting civilians should be absolutely forbidden, period.
Thanks for that acknowledgement that Hezbollah shelled Israeli civilians.
I again ask you if you feel that Lebanon’s Jews feel safe? (with the corollary assertion often stated that Iran’s Jews are safe).
I don’t have a citation, just a memory (I’m sure that I will be attacked for just having a memory), that there were incidents of spy accusations of Lebanese Jews, and some suppression and aggression that resulted.
Does that ring true to you? Do you have more specific recollection.
In Iran, there were a few waves of such spy accusations, that were later described as arbitrary, apparently intended for political scapegoating purposes (a tail wagging a dog).
On targeting, Do you have an analysis of what was hit in Lebanon in 2006? Of those sites hit, which do you understand were intended (not misses)? And, of those intended which of them are obvious and reasonable military targets, which questionable, and which overtly NOT military targets by any stretch?
That would be the analysis that I would require to address specific conclusions on Israel – Lebanon.
And, a parallel analysis would be useful of Israeli locations. I read somewhere (again from my memory), that 40% of those killed in the Hezbollah shelling were Muslims. Does that sound accurate to you?
What words do you think reduces tensions?
I get that in your post on Hezbollah protection of the historical Jewish synagogue in Beirut (what happened to the other communities’) was intended to oppose the demonization of Hezbollah, that they are not all bad.
It appeared to me that you were saying that Hezbollah is “all good”, that any criticism of Hezbollah policies and actions were off the table, because they are resistance.
I DON’T hold that view regarding Israel. I believe that criticizing policies and practices are the responsibility of citizens (more than a right), so as to improve them.
I find that the religious (as in politically correct) defense of Hezbollah and Hamas and other “resistance” organizations, is NOT what yeilds peace or freedom, that they require criticism as well. That is especially true, if they have turned the corner to participate in governance. A government that is not subject to review, accountability, criticism, is not democratic in any full sense of the word.
And, criticism that is habitual and not oriented to reform, not constructive criticism, is similarly, not as useful as it needs to be.
There are some wrongs that just need to be opposed, solutions proposed later. The Israel/Palestine conflict, or the Israel/Lebanon or Israel/Iran conflicts are NOT mostly of that character.
Proposals are needed.
You disgust me, Witty. You constantly bend over backwards to blame Arabs for everything, and then when Israel goes on a campaign of military force and destruction that murders thousands of people over the course of years — several orders of magnitude greater in severity in death of people and property damage than anything anyone has ever done to Israel — and you pretend like it “isn’t so bad.” Or worse, that it was justified.
You want a proposal? BE AMERICAN. Be a goddamn citizen of the country you have citizenship in and stop pretending like your fealty to the Jewish “nationality” is privileged over that.
Unlike Israel, Hezbollah does not have bunker penetrating munitions.
Israeli civilians, Jewish ones in particular, have shelters that are constructed like bunkers in which they can hide and avoid injury.
HOWEVER
The Palestinian citizens of Israel do not have these neighborhood bunkers as they receive no funding for them.
What’s ironic and tragic at the same time is that the vast majority of those who were injured or killed by Hezbollah rockets in 2006 were in fact Palestinian citizens of Israel, throughout the various Arab villages and towns in the upper Galilee.
In light of that, I commend you, RW, for caring so much about the Palestinian citizens of Israel and for seeking the acknowledgment that they too were victims of both Hezbollah and Israel, Hezbollah’s due to the rockets, and Israel’s due to the lack of bunker-like shelters.
Also, it’s worth noting that Hezbollah do NOT posses weaponry that is as accurate as Israel’s. In other words, lacking the guidance systems that Israel’s air force possesses, Hezbollah’s rockets can only be as accurate as a mortar shell where wind, humidity and temperature can severely affect the trajectory of said munitions throughout the course of their flight from launch to target.
David, I’m also against targeting civilians, even if by Hizbullah; the 4000 katyushas that were shot at Israel were surely not all aimed at military installations since they couldn’t be aimed at anything with any accuracy. Until the 2006 war, I was against Hizbullah but after I saw the viciousness Israel unleashed on Lebanese civilians and how the few Hizbullah fighters held off the Israeli land forces, my opinion changed.
You are right about Hizbullah’s rockets having started in reaction to Israel’s bombing since they only started a couple of days after the Israeli bombing and Nasrallah made repeated calls for a ceasefire but Israel was on an American mission, as Hersh described it, and wouldn’t consider it especially with Rice celebrating the war as the begining of a new Middle East. She celebrated for nothing.
What is it you think you are responding to me?
Hezbollah shooting innaccurate but powerful rockets at large Israeli towns and cities, is not a statement in their behalf. Its a description that they are willing to kill indiscrimmately, and whomever is there, Jew or Muslim.
“Its not fair that Hezbollah only has 40000 innaccurate rockets” is not a compelling argument.
They still commit to the elimination of Israel as a self-governing state, and are willing to undertake terror and political activities to that end.
It should be noted that many of the spy accusations against Jews in Arab countries proved to be correct. Operation Susanah was one such incident in Egypt where Israel recruited egyptian Jews to perform false flag bombings of American and British institutions in Egypt. Israel denied that the accused Egyptian Jews were guilty for over ten years, until the Lavon Affair inadvertently revealed the truth. This is one of the ways that Israel contributes to the dangers that Jews in Arab countries feel. By recruiting the Egyptian Jews it opened all Egyptian Jews up to collective suspicion about their loyalties, and what is worse, by denying that they were Israeli spies, and insisting that they were innocent Jewish victims of Egyptian “anti-semitism” Israel created more fear and apprehension for Egyptian Jews.
Similar spy operations in Lebanon and Syria were also discovered and later bragged about by Israel. It certainly shows a very cavalier attitude on the Israeli government’s part toward non-Israeli Jews, but it has been ever thus since the beginning of the Zionist project.
“I don’t have a citation, just a memory (I’m sure that I will be attacked for just having a memory), that there were incidents of spy accusations of Lebanese Jews, and some suppression and aggression that resulted.”
In other words, after your claims were challenged, you’ve downgraded your hyperbolic story of frequent mass murder of Jews to “some suppression and aggression”?
“In Iran, there were a few waves of such spy accusations, that were later described as arbitrary, apparently intended for political scapegoating purposes (a tail wagging a dog)”
Let me guess, you don’t have any links for that either right?
“On targeting, Do you have an analysis of what was hit in Lebanon in 2006? Of those sites hit, which do you understand were intended (not misses”
Yes we do Witty. 1,300 people were killed and of those, all but a few hundred were Hezbollah, though it’s all but admitted by Israel that they did target civilians and civilian infrastructure.
“It appeared to me that you were saying that Hezbollah is “all good”, that any criticism of Hezbollah policies and actions were off the table, because they are resistance.”
That’s not what he said at all. He said that comparatively speaking, Lebanon demonstrates more religious tolerance than Israel or the US.
What a putty you don’t bother to read.
“I find that the religious (as in politically correct) defense of Hezbollah and Hamas and other “resistance” organizations, is NOT what yeilds peace or freedom”
What have you found that does yield peace and freedom?
“And, criticism that is habitual and not oriented to reform, not constructive criticism, is similarly, not as useful as it needs to be.”
In other words, criticism of Hezbollah and Hamas is necessary for peace and freedom, but criticism of Israel is not oriented to reform or constructive?
What have you got against criticism when it’s warranted?
Tree, the name of the spy you have on the tip of your tongue is Israel’s (and Lebanon’s) most famous prostitute and madam, Shulamit Arazi Cohen. a.k.a Shulamit Cohen Kishik, a.k.a Shulamit Mayer Cohen. Born in Jerusalem, she married a wealthy Beirut merchant and became an Israeli spy in the late 40s. In the 50s, she ran a prostitution and spy ring out of the Beirut nightclub, “Rambo Club” for about 10 years until she was caught and jailed for 7 years until her release in a prisoner swap with Israel after 67. Her 7 children all carry different family names for obvious reasons, one of which is the rabid anti-Palestinian and very pro-Cast Lead cheerleader, Yitzak Levanon that was named ambassador to Egypt last year and another is the infamous dirty games master operating out of the military HQ at Beit El, David Kishik. A very illustrious family. A movie about her life was made in Lebanon last year called “Shula Cohen, the Pearl”.
DAVID SAMEL- Thanks for reminding us of this falsehood. The harsh reality is that bullshit is like some sort of zombie that keeps returning to torment us. The Zionists have no shame. They will forever resurrect crap which suites their narrative. How long before Mondoweisse’s pet liberal Zionist complains about Hezbollah’s intent to destroy Israel as indicated by their launching of thousands of rockets following Israel’s withdrawal from Lebanon?
Aluf Benn put the lie to this with his 2006 article “We Need a Nasrallah”, ironically written just before hell broke out. link to haaretz.com
In short, there were rockets, but they were not fired, contrary to Israeli propaganda after the fact. The situation on the border was so quiet and peaceful that Benn was able to point to it as an exemplary state of affairs.
All this posturing by Israeli and American politicians makes it seem as though Obama’s charade of “direct negotiations” is meaningful in any way. Oren’s remarks, as well as the remarks of Israel’s leaders from Yitzhak Shamir to Avigdor Lieberman speak for themselves. There is no point in repeating them here. Essentially, anyone who’s been paying attention knows quite well that Israel does not intend on allowing a sovereign and independent Palestinian state to form in the West Bank and Gaza.
While I can’t say for sure, I bet that by now Abbas walks into those meetings with his ipod, and with earphones firmly plugged in his ears he sits through the “negotiations” humming along to the music.
But, let’s be realistic, in all likelihood, given Abbas’s penchant for acquiescing to his masters, his team and the Israeli team probably spend their meetings cracking jokes, munching on cookies, snacking on Bourekas and drinking soda pop. If the talks are held in Egypt — or some other Middle Eastern locale — the Israeli team will comment on the good quality of the coffee, but will also mention how Arabic coffee is a bit too strong for their taste. Later they’ll walk out, donning a serious look both teams will proclaim that it’s too early to tell if meaningful progress has been made.
In all seriousness….
As usual, astute observation, David.
What happens when it’s no longer ‘This is how history gets written” , but instead it’s “That’s how history used to get written? Dreamer, yes, but does anyone not dream? Gets down to what matters most, is it power and wealth for the greedy few, or, is it peace on earth and goodwill to all living beings, nature included. How fortunate, too, that at a moment when glaciers are melting away, compliments of man-made pollution of one kind or another, “knock-knock.” “who’s there” – ” opportunity, in the form of a narrative that, after first explaining how it is that the truth is the opposite of what we’ve been force-fed, that it’s the Palestinians now who are the “Jews”, the Jewish settlers (every Israeli Jew), who are the persecuting Crusaders, Cossacks, Nazis, U.S. troops in Afghanistan. Turning, then, to the present, the new narrative goes on to describe what sort of world, once occupier Jewish settler and occupied Palestinian sit down together and work things out based on one equals one with liberty and justice for all. Why would such an outcome turn things around? Because one victory on what’s potentially a breakthrough issue is all it’ll take, that’s why. Could also result from victories on other breakthrough issues, such as the Afghanistan War, jobs or health care (specifically single payer), or nationalizing banking and finance, or pensions, or immigrant and gay rights, among today’s struggles for a better world. Except at this very instant, lo & behold, resolving the J/P conflict is center stage. Something about the truth freeing us all? Ready everyone?
So, the rockets were not fired?
And, Hamas and Hezbollah “have no choice”?
That’s the best you have? A false dichotomy and a straw man argument? And only two lines long?
Richard, I was addressing Lebanon/Hezbollah only, and the answer is, no, the rockets were not fired, at least not before the Israeli bombing and invasion. The repeated descriptions of thousands of rockets falling from 2000 to 2006, by Bronner, Oren, and Netanyahu, are pure fabrications.
And who are you quoting when you say “have no choice”? Did I say that? Did somebody else?
I was surprised to hear of “thousands” of rockets fired. From what I’ve read in UNIFIL documentation, reported in the press, hundreds would not be innaccurate.
It is always a question, unanswerable, whether the rockets were unilateral or responses. But, the same can be asked about Israeli actions.
I don’t know if there is an action that Hezbollah could do that would deescalate. And, I also don’t know if there is frankly an action that Israel could do.
Although many say that it is Israel’s primary responsibility, I think that is true only to the extent of restoring calm. So long as Hezbollah retains the policy that Israel is illegitimate, not a state, it remains in a state of deferred war.
I was very irritated by the impression from your post that you held that Hezbollah was NOT a participant in saber-rattling, in escalation, that it was merely a victim, merely a defensive movement.
I had read that the reported shelling occurred mostly from 2000-2002.
So you only read UNIFIL reports about what Arabs are doing, but not about what Israelis are doing?
Hundreds of rockets, Richard? Have any documentation for that? It should be easy to find; after all, you read it in the press.
David, haven’t you noticed by now that Mr. Witty is rather, well flexible in his use of quote marks? For Witty, something in quotes doesn’t need to be something you (or anyone else) actually said or anything. Oh no, he uses quotes to indicate that he knows what you are really thinking, or would have said, or something.
But put in quotes what was actually said or written? Nah, he doesn’t play that.
So, that doesn’t correspond with your recollection of the period from 2000- 2002?
link to google.com
There are no quantities on the graph, but comparing 2006 with 4000 rockets fired, it looks like hundreds to me from 2000 – until then.
Here is an Israeli government list of all actions by Hezbollah in northern Israel which killed Israelis in the period from 2000 (I forgot the starting month) until the war in the summer of 2006.
link
I suspect Witty will fail to find it or won’t remembrance the link. IN the event that he does, I suspect it won’t reflect his absurd claims.
“It is always a question, unanswerable, whether the rockets were unilateral or responses. But, the same can be asked about Israeli actions.”
How so Witty? The actions were perpetrated by the IDF, using state of the art weaponry, not home made rockets.
“I don’t know if there is an action that Hezbollah could do that would deescalate. And, I also don’t know if there is frankly an action that Israel could do.”
Seeing as Israel were crossing the border to attack Lebanon and tried their darndest to invade, it’s clear that Israel certainly had a choice. As the Winograd Commission concluded, the war was initiated by Israel, not Hebollah.
“Although many say that it is Israel’s primary responsibility, I think that is true only to the extent of restoring calm. ”
False. The Winograd Commission concluded, the war was initiated by Israel, not Hebollah.
Judge Winograd who ran the Israeli commission of inquiry after the war stated:
“Israel embarked on a prolonged war that it initiated………..Though it was a war of our own initiative and waged in a defined territory, Israel did not use its military power wisely or effectively,”
“So long as Hezbollah retains the policy that Israel is illegitimate, not a state, it remains in a state of deferred war.”
Absolute rubbish Witty. Israel doesn’t give a damn who does or does not recognize it. The sate of deferred war exists because:
a) Israel covets the water from the Litani River and
b) Israel had it’s ass kicked twice by Hezbollah and wants to restore it’s deterrence capacity
“I was very irritated by the impression from your post that you held that Hezbollah was NOT a participant in saber-rattling, in escalation, that it was merely a victim, merely a defensive movement.”
Sabre-rattling is nothing more than hot air. Escalation on the other hand was entirely the responsibility of Israel. Once you start a war, as Israel did, there is no such thing as escalation.
And while no one has argued that Hezbollah merely a victim, it’s movements were entirely defensive.
“I had read that the reported shelling occurred mostly from 2000-2002.”
No you didn’t Witty, because it never happened.
Yesterday I supplied a link to an Israeli government website listing all the casualties inflicted from Lebanon in Israel from May 2000 to July 2006–so far as I can tell, nobody was interested. It is an approach I’d recommend, however–searching for links, trustworthy or not.
Here I’ve got a list from the Jewish virtual library, a log of violent incidents against Israelis for the time since 2000.
link
In neither case is there a specific count of every rocket fired, but I see no indication that there were hundreds fired indiscriminately at northern Israeli towns. There are attacks on IDF forces and Cheeba Farms (as it is spelled in the link above). One of the days in the link above mentions 25 anti-aircraft rockets fired into Israel, presumably in response to one of Israel’s numerous overflights.
Witty’s link with the graph is hard to interpret (I don’t know if the 2006 bar is cut off, for one thing and I don’t know where the numbers come from), so unless you want to go through a registration process for a service you may or may not want, it’s hard to give it much weight.
Is any of this of any interest?
David ~ I’m not a hebrew speaker but Jeff Halper relates in his book An Israeli in Palestine that “ain breira” (“no choice”) is pretty much the standard Israeli excuse for every horrific act that is committed. It’s always someone else’s fault, poor Israel always has no choice. I think it’s the origin of the shooting-then-crying phenomenon, where Israel is simultaneously the perpetrator and the victim.
re: “I had no choice”
Wasn’t that what Hitler’s minions said, after WW II?
Indeed, that has long been the refrain. Israel’s own founding thugs certainly claimed that the Nakbah was a necessary evil. Benny Morris, as well, has taken that stance in recent years.
When confronted with such ugly truths, the average Israeli on the street will shrug and say, ” Tir’eh, ma la’sot, ein breira” (Look, what can you do, there’s no other choice).
Who controls the past, controls the future. Who controls the present, controls the past.
That is the reasoning for building Mosques on top of former synagogues or churches.
And, it is the reasoning of suppressing any reporting of Arab harassment or terror.
And, it is the reasoning for prohibiting journalists from entering Gaza and asking candid questions of residents and candid questions of Hamas.
Is there any awful, nasty Islamophobic canard you will not post all over Mondoweiss, Witty?
“Is there any awful, nasty Islamophobic canard you will not post all over Mondoweiss, Witty?”
Is there any awful, nasty Islamophobic canard Mondoweiss will not gladly permit Witty to post all over Mondoweiss?
Can we get a list of Christian churches that the State of Israel has demolished? Can you get that for us, Witty? Considering this seems to be a hot topic for you, and you tout how important it is to get “all sides.” Have you done that yet?
They are not all demolished. Some are merely welded shut and surrounded with barbed wire, which would make a nice photo op.
Who’s suppressing reports on Arab harassment/terror? And why do you use the term “terror” with “Arab” so loosely, but refuse to use it with “Jewish” or “Zionist”?
I was referring to the Israeli prohibition of journalists into Gaza.
Its how biased people revise history, rather than seek to understand it.
And, I assume you were referring to the rhetorical question of whether Israel should negotiate with Meshal, to which I responded that they should, even though he is not a democratically elected representative of the Palestinian government.
which means that by setting the record straight on the Mideast conflict we can take control of both the present and the future. What’ll happen is that there’ll be this sudden realization – “A better world is possible?” together with “Yes! Count me in.”
David Samel’s ….”Did somebody else?”
President George W. Bush II , among others, with his “You’re either for us or against us” version of the same refrain, the inverse of which turns out to be nothing less than peace on earth and goodwill to all living beings, nature included – here on earth plus or minus any hereafters that may or may not exist.
I am reminded in this back and forth of the fact that allegations against Israel are routinely followed by, “You have no proof” whereas virtually any accusations against Palestinians are pretty much stated as fact; “Hamas launched this, Hamas targeted that…”, especially when used as a pretext for some other significant act (breaking off peace talks, suspending a cease fire, launching an assault, declaring the leadership as terrorists, etc.,).
This seems to ignore the instances where it would be in Israel’s interests to commit false flag operations so that the other side would be perceived as the aggressors and Israel could then justify their subsequent actions. I know this can not always be the case, but if it ever occurs in this manner, it needs to be factored in.
Weren’t some of the rocket attacks during the cease fire done by non-Hamas lone wolves? And if they were not Hamas, couldn’t they pretty much be anybody?