Shmuel Sermoneta-Gertel has basically accused me of being a racist, after referring to Avigdor Liberman as a Homo Sovieticus. I contend that claim.
The term “Homo Sovieticus” has a very distinct meaning. It refers to someone who accepted basic Soviet thinking, including blind acceptance of claims made by authority and isolation from and hatred of the outside world. You could add several other symptoms of the Soviet systems – disregard of human rights, contempt for democracy and the democratic process, and rampant racism towards “uncivilized people”, such as Asians or Muslims – and you would have described Avigdor Liberman, as well as most of his followers, to a T.
I never claimed that Israel was ever progressive; I am well aware of Israeli history. I have very little patience with yearning for the lost “little Israel” of 1967, if only because it still imposed military rule over its Arab citizens until, officially, 1966.
But to say that the massive influx of Soviet émigrés into Israel did not make it a more racist place is, so sorry, nonsense. The Soviet emigrants tilted Israel sharply to the right. Yes, there are exceptions; there are always exceptions, but exceptions are precisely that. A recent poll, looking for signs of fascism in Israel, found most Israeli reject the notion of a “strong leader” – but 53% of the Soviet émigrés support one. They still do, in the old homeland, where Putin is king and Stalin is making a comeback. Russian Jews have, to some extent, brought Russian political mores with them to Israel. Pointing out the obvious is not racism.
In the same vein, to say that the rising numbers of Jewish Orthodox in Israel has nothing to do with the rise of racism and human-hatred in Israel is, sorry again, patently bullshit. For the vast majority of the Jewish population in Israel, Judaism is the fuel which drives their racism. Polls have shown, time and again, that the more an Israeli identifies himself as an Orthodox Jew, the more likely is he to be racist and intolerant.
I made remarks regarding Liberman’s poor Hebrew. I stand by them, due to the – perhaps quaint – belief that if you want to be the Foreign Minister, then you bloody well have to master at least one of the official languages of the country, particularly if you claim to “speak Arabic”, i.e. being able to intimidate Arabs. Liberman is here since 1978. He had time to learn, but apparently that’s not important enough for him.
And finally, there is something exceptionally loathsome in an émigré whose politics are based on the idea of expelling the native population. If saying so means being called an Ahusal, I guess I’ll have to live with it.
Yossi Gurvitz,
I couldn’t have said it better. I got tired of hearing all the “But, you can’t criticize them because that, too, is racism” and “Don’t call him a racist because that’s not helpful” etc.
The Hebrew term Hityafyefut comes to mind.
How can the U.N. General Assembly be petitioned to take up the Zionism is racist once again? U.S. pressure got the G.A. to reverse itself a couple decades ago. Time for it to re-reverse itself.
Usually, it’s up to member states of the GA to introduce proposals which are then passed either by a simple majority vote or a two-thirds majority, depending on the ‘gravity’ of the resolution.
Member states of the GA also elect a president for each session and that president can in turn introduce proposals.
So, for example, when Israel attacked Gaza in 2008/2009, father D’escoto of Nicaragua was president. He introduced several resolutions criticizing Israel for its indiscriminate attacks on civilians. Some were passed, some weren’t.
Yossi,
I appreciate your writing and your positions, but in this case, my impression (and I may of course be wrong) is that you fell into the Ahusal trap. Are native-born Israelis really more aware of “the history of their neighbours” than their Soviet counterparts?
The term “Homo Sovieticus” … refers to someone who accepted basic Soviet thinking, including blind acceptance of claims made by authority and isolation from and hatred of the outside world
Couldn’t the same be argued about the vast majority of native-born Israelis with regard to Zionist thinking?
And finally, there is something exceptionally loathsome in an émigré whose politics are based on the idea of expelling the native population.
I agree, but in the context of a state created by immigrants, who expelled a good part of the native population and continue to refuse to recognise that injustice or attempt to redress it, the loathsomeness becomes somewhat less exceptional.
It was not my intention to call you a racist, but to point out elements of liberal discourse that are racist. I think there is a difference.
Sometimes I weigh the significance a person puts on a certain topic by his or her dedication of an article or several to that same topic.
I think within the context of what is taking place in that unholy land, past and current transgressions within the Jewish community are marginal compared to the Israeli-Palestinian and Israeli-Arab conflict. I’m loathsome of racism and discrimination and I especially hate it when people seek to sugar coat such reality.
But, when I see a series of articles dedicated to such side issues that have the effect of shielding victimizers from criticism, I get quite frustrated and angry. Yes. Angry.
And for the sake of transparency and openness, that’s how I felt when I saw the post about Ahusalim only to be followed by the the post about Racism and intent (Posted by David Samel), the coup de grâce of the week.
shielding victimizers from criticism
Victimisers should and must be criticised for their actions, not the origins they happen to share with heaps of other people – especially when the basis for that criticism is anti-racism.
I recall that after recent Israeli elections took place, election results showed that a majority of Russian Olim voted for right wing parties like Yisrael Beitenu, among others.
When I made that point, you dismissed it and said something to the effect that such right wing parties had a healthy cross section of Israeli society, that such radicalism transcended ethnic background.
And yet, here is Yossi making the same point, and you dismiss him, too.
At least I’m consistent ;-)
The statistics about Soviet/post-Soviet immigrant views are what they are, but Israeli society as a whole has also moved to the right in recent years (for various reasons) and, what is more, things weren’t so peachy before their arrival either. Is Lieberman any more racist or any more of a lout than the Israeli-born Raful? Was Rehavam Ze’evi’s “transfer” any less abhorrent than Lieberman’s (Lieberman’s is actually less drastic)? So what is it about Lieberman? Why is his “Russian”-ness brought up so often? Is it really that relevant to his views (remember also that he came in ’78, not with the more recent wave), and are his views really so different from those of “respectable” Israeli society that insists that Israel must be a Jewish state, continues to steal Palestinian land on both sides of the green line, refuses to recognise the rights of the Palestinian refugees, etc.? (I am not suggesting that Yossi shares these views, but they are a part of “liberal” Israeli discourse).
I think it’s relevant to remind the world of his hypocrisy, that while he speaks Hebrew with an accent like other radical Olim in the colonies, he is also calling for the transfer of people who are native to the land.
I know where he came from and when, but the fact that he still has an accent — which means he invested very little in assimilating and working on his accent — is doubly absurd given his prominence as a Foreign Minister and his views. In other words, he felt that he was superior to everyone else to the point where more than 30 years later, he still has an accent, doesn’t care about speaking Hebrew without an accent, and yet demands a loyalty oath from the native people.
I think it’s very relevant and pertinent. Much in the same way Netanyahu and IDF spokespeople are shamed out of public appearances for their views and their actions, so should people like Lieberman.
================================
Finally, I don’t know to what extent or for how long you were/have been involved in the (almost nonexistent these days) peace movement in Israel, but my experience over the years has shown me that approaches like the ones suggested by both David Samel and you are not productive at all.
What I have seen in the last few days in terms of articles, reminds me of the late 1980s. It’s as though I have moved back in time and someone else is trying to put to use models and ideas which have long been tried and failed.
So, if that means that another 20 years will drag on by with similar to no results, then I can’t say that I’m going to sit idly by and acquiesce.
Ben Gurion, Abba Eban, Shimon Peres, Yithak Shamir, Menahem Begin, etc. all spoke with accents. So an actual immigrant lording it over an indigenous population ranks a little higher on the chutzpah scale than the child of immigrants doing the same thing. Big deal. Even the native Israeli accent is an invention dreamt up by Zionist immigrants/colonisers not so very long ago.
======================================
I first got involved with the Israeli peace movement in the late 80′s, and you’re barking up the wrong tree.
Henry Kissinger has been an American since 1938, and still has an accent. So does Arianna Huffington. Whether one has an accent or not is not determined by how long one speaks a language, or how hard he or she tries, but by the age at which one starts speaking that language. The earlier, the better. Once you’re past childhood, chances are getting slimmer with every year to ever sound like a native speaker, regardless of individual linguistic abilities or effort
Liebermann’s accent reminds me of the fact that some of the most radical settlers from, say, Kiryat Arba, speak with a thick American accent…
some of the most radical settlers from, say, Kiryat Arba, speak with a thick American accent
And most don’t. Israel has plenty of home-grown nutters, and some Americans manage to adopt a passable Israeli accent. Who is worse, the Israeli-accented Moshe Levinger or the Brooklyn-accented Eliezer Waldman?
Shmuel, you might want to note the fact that you used the past tense in your sentence above. So what does that mean? It means that all the people you describe lived in the past (With the exception of Shimon Peres).
The year 2010 is not in the past. So, I don’t see what’s wrong with criticizing a racist non-native like Lieberman who wants to expel the indigenous non-Jews and in the meantime wants to force them to pledge loyalty oaths.
Yes. But, we don’t live in a world of absolutes. These things are relative. I’m merely puzzled by the difference in standards that you apply to these issues. On the one hand you dismiss statistical evidence from election results, and on the other hand make the case that nothing is set in stone in regard to accents.
Actually it is determined by practice and persistence. There are classes dedicated to accent and dialect coaching. Speech coaches teach people the right pronunciation.
Studying a language is not limited to speaking, reading or writing, but also to pronunciation and by extension accent.
In the United States, for example, most TV news anchors speak in a General American accent, which is closest to the Midwestern accent.
Avi,
I get the feeling that you are not really reading what I write, but grinding some other axe.
I have argued that those who approach I/P from an anti-racist perspective must be aware of the fact that there is a racist and self-serving element to liberal Israeli discourse (related to the detrimental ’67 paradigm/delusion) which should be approached in a critical fashion. Zeh hakol. I have not justified the racism of those who are, in turn, discriminated against, and I do not believe that I have directly or indirectly held back “the struggle” in any way.
What “hityafyefut” are you talking about? By all means criticise Lieberman, but criticise him because he is a fascist, not because he is a Russian, and be careful of the chorus you join, which may be just as bad – if not worse – although at least one generation less Russian, with better Hebrew and better manners.
Fair enough.
P.S. I don’t have any axes to grind as I get all my firewood pre-chopped.
Yossi, you are being somewhat unfair to Shmuel’s original post, which to my eyes, at least, addressed the issue (and it is an issue) of the prevalence in intolerant speech in Israel. I know first hand what you are saying about the Russian immigrants, as we have them here too, in the US (many arriving after a brief, not so pleasant stay in Israel). Most of the ones I know have, what I’d call, stone age attitudes toward politics (not even bronze age!), and the older they are, the worse it is. Something that can be in sharp contrast to their knowledge and affinity to culture (of which we have woefully little here….). Similar to what you describe – e.g., no sooner they arrived that they learn to denigrate the mexican immigrants….
But, as others have observed, after a decade, or jut a few years, some start changing their attitudes, more so and faster the younger they were when they arrived. Usually it is because they mix well with the rest of America society, including the generally liberal and tolerant jewish one (whether or not they are Jewish!). That “rest of the society” has a huge impact on anyone who cares to become fluent in the language of the land. I know because I too am an immigrant to this country, from a place called Israel.
It is that “rest of the society” element that’s different in Israel, which is what I thought Shmuel highlighted (though perhaps he should have widened his comments outside the two most distinct, internally intolerant sub-groups). The Russians in Israel may well have all the undemocratic attitudes you describe. Immigrants from anywhere often bring with them whatever baggage they had from whence they come. Take the Ethiopian for example, who were, after all, subsistence farmers in Africa. But IMO, it is the fundamental, deep-seated intolerant streak which pervades everyday speech and behavior in Israel, often spilling into overt racism , that makes the difference. The Russians in the US tend to slowly soften their attitudes – over time, an openness creeping in, probably as a result of feeling, for the most part, welcome. In Israel their original intolerant, jingoistic, parochial attitudes harden instead, the crudity of everyday societal interaction, which never seems to welcome strangers with really open arms, causes whatever nonsense they carried over from a failed Soviet system, to become entrenched.
That crudity and intolerance of everyday discourse in Israel is what I also find shocking, even now, made worse by the increasing intermittence of my visits there. From the outside, dropping in now and then, one can’t help but notice how much more racist the entire society has become. It’s not that you are wrong in your comments. It’s that everyone in Israel constantly HAS negative observations about everyone else. It grates on those who prefer civilized discourse, so people take refuge – each in their own little bubble. And those bubbles are becoming ever smaller.
Shmuel addresses a phenomenon which I comment on sometimes as well. In Israel, the melting pot, once an object of pride, has become toxic, slowly turning into a witches’ brew. He chose to single out some specifics, maybe because they offend his civic-fair-mindedness, it being so overt and all, and he is seems to be a die-hard optimist at heart (sorry Shmuell if I project too much). I, being an opsimist with an eye for the morbid, do see it as part of something much broader and far far more disturbing.
Not calling you any names, BTW, so don’t get go too miffy now.
RE: “The Soviet emigrants tilted Israel sharply to the right.” – Yossi Gurvitz
MY COMMENT: Thanks so very much, Scoop! Nicely done.
Jackson–Vanik amendment – link to en.wikipedia.org
P.S. Take Orly Taitz, for instance…P-U-L-L-E-A-S-E!
from the Wiki link: “In 1972 as the Cold War and the ongoing Arab–Israeli conflict were intensifying, the Brezhnev government imposed the so-called “diploma tax” on would-be emigrants who received a higher education in the USSR. While the professed justification for this tax was to repay state expenses for public education, this measure was designed to combat the brain drain caused by the growing emigration of Soviet Jews and other members of the intelligentsia to the West.
As the identifying information, “University of Manchester,” hints, Nobel Laureate Geim DID leave Russia after getting an education in Russian schools.
The question is, what do emigres owe to the state that supports the education that they take with them to wherever they go? Obviously, this does not apply to Jews exclusively or even especially. If an American university invests hundreds of thousands of dollars in the facilities, laboratories, faculty, as well as individual support of, say, an Indian student, and that student graduates and takes his diploma and his knowledge — and the university’s investment — back to India, does the university have a grievance? What if the university is a taxpayer-supported school — do taxpayers have a grievance? Do those taxpayers have a right to ask the student for total compensation for the education provided?
Thanks, Danaa. That was very well put – so well put in fact, that my first instinct was to write “yeah, what she says”.
My point was a little different however. It’s really easy to blame racism and intransigence in Israel on certain “sectors” (migzarim), but that is both unfair (without ignoring any elephants) and often serves to hide abuses by the supposed good guys (who don’t qualify as a “sector”, because they are the establishment), that are at least as bad, if not worse. I believe that emphasising Lieberman’s origins when not specifically relevant (Yossi contends that it was pertinent here; I disagree), feeds that tendency and is incongruous with the struggle against racism.
You draw the distinction well, though you must admit – it is somewhat of a subtle point. It’s not always easy to stick to criticism for the right reasons, and human nature, being what it is, tends to stray into the personal and the tangential. Which seems to happen more often whenever Israel comes up, making civil conversation about contentious issues difficult.
A someone said (me?): so many directions, so few compasses…
A someone said (me?): so many directions, so few compasses…
I’ll be sure to quote you by username ;-)
Human nature makes us all want to feel a part of the group (blame the interminable hunter-gatherer phase in our evolution), and nothing says belonging like putting down outgroupers. We all do it – except that it is even more ridiculous than usual when we trash others (gratuitously and irrelevantly of course) because we are members of The Group that Doesn’t Trash People and they are not. I say this as a member in good standing of The Group that Hates Looking/Feeling Ridiculous but Inevitably Does All Too Often.
The Zionist left is particularly prone to this kind of hypocrisy, in its desperate desire to be a part of “the nation” (all cozy-like). This offers a partial explanation (not justification!) of widespread lefty support in Israel for the Gaza massacre and the most recent Lebanon war (“excesses” excluded, naturally). A good old “just war” (milhemet ein breirah) really does wonders for the bitter isolation Israeli lefties experience under normal circumstances. Who can blame them for twisting the word “just” into a pretzel? It’s evolution.
*Further disclaimer (seems to be necessary around here these days): It is not my intention to justify racism or racist actions in any way, even if the perps are or have ever been victims of racism themselves, or are influenced by evolutionary forces.
I carry no brief for Stalin; I’m sure he was every bit the ogre everyone says he was. However, it was the West that isolated and stigmatized the Soviet Union once Lenin declared the Proletarian Dictatorship not the other way around.
As for the “Democratic Process” is it not contemptible? Has it not descended into a popularity contest between spellbinders, bunko-steerers and charlatans?
Well, I thought Homo Sovieticus was extraordinarily witty…oh dear, maybe I better find another word…I thought it was clever and funny, made me laugh*. Especially since my Irish ass grew up around every manner of Homo Sovieticus, and every Eastern European tribe you can imagine, and my experience of them, and with them, is completely different than what Lieberman represents, seen from afar.
Not only that, I spent three months in Russia in my teens, under communist rule.
I don’t care how well-heeled or educated Lieberman is, I find him coarse.
===========
* (And I intend to use it and claim it’s my own. ;-) Yossi is, after all, over the pond.)
I intend to use it
I’m sure there are situations in which it is apt. Can you think of an equivalent term for those of us raised in the shadow of US-dominated western capitalism? Oh I forgot, that’s the system that was “proven” right ;-)
Looking for a good one, Shmuel. You got one? Something that also embodies slime and thoughtless and cruel with a little bit of clever kick would do. ;-) Something with an engine attached to it, like a Mack Truck or a Caterpillar tractor that rolls over people because it can.
BTW, I want to go on the record (in light of the fact that this will be preserved on the web somewhere for eternity, sorta’) that I am not against capitalism, western or otherwise. I am against people with no morals or scruples practicing it (but how do you regulate that). I am against the advantage taken. I am against the sense that might makes right.
What the USA did to the world, revealed on Sept 17, 2008, needs to be punished.
Homo Khawajeh.
Danaa, (I share your eye for the morbid.)
Dr. Norman Doidge in his book THE BRAIN THAT CHANGES ITSELF (great book BTW) writes about the assimilation process into a new culture and how it takes three years for the brain to adapt to the new culture, provided the émigré is completely immersed. (His book is about the 21st C research into the neuroplasticity of the brain, and the discoveries from new experiments that shatter common belief about ourselves.)
Soviets are orientals, not europeans. It’s such a different worldview. Europeans (westerners) isolate and analyze. Easteners (orientals) approach the world by looking at the whole, which is why the Chinese knew centuries before we did that the moon moves the tides.
I don’t mean to get into a discussion of this, but one thing Doidge said is that practice — of anything, speech, thought, emotion — becomes culture, and that culture actually rewires the brain. It is the complete opposite to what we think. We think it’s the other way around. But scientists have discovered that six months is sufficient to cause the brain to get rewired; continuing the practice cements it. [Which is why RW's quasi-philosophical curlicues that I occasionally fly off the handle over are such bunk.]
So, what this completely disjointed post is trying to say is that your observation of “whatever nonsense they carried over from a failed Soviet system, [has become] entrenched” makes complete sense.
Here’s a page about it:
link to squidoo.com
And an interview here with Dr. Doidge, who started life as a poet: START at 29:30 minutes…he’s in the last half of the show.
link to cbc.ca
Shmuel, you should listen to the interview. ;-) You too, Yossi.
MRW, thanks for the reference to Dr. Doidge’s work – and the link. I’ll check it out – looks like it might be relevant to my own experience (and maybe it’ll help explain why some people, like yours truly, seem to be able to adapt much faster to new societies, cultures, languages, as geographies, as compared, say, with others, for whom a lifetime is not enough to unlearn a prejudice, appreciate a different tune, or learn a single new thought pattern. I am convinced that adaptability has something to do with innate ability to reroute brain connections…..I never thought it’s only software – there has to be something going on with the wiring firmware. But I do wonder what it’ll all come to when year hence I’ll be staring at a jumble of tangled wires, with cross-talk and echoes firing every which way but loose…..
Now, if I could just change that special sensitivity to morbid….. must be nice to be able to put on those rose colored glasses, if only for a moment. On second thought – maybe Witty can spare a pair (out of his seemingly bottomless collection)….not that it’d ever fit?
When first meeting me, many people remark on my precise and perfectly uninflected speech. Not remarkable. I likely mimic my Mother’s speech patterns, also precise and without accent (okay, a twangeless, Boston-less American pattern). Mom came from Italy when she was about 11. She had little schooling in Italy, knew only Italian. In the US, she was enrolled in a Catholic school in Chicago that was run by French nuns. They taught her to speak English — apparently with the same precision that the French speak French. My own children’s speech is similarly precise: younger son began speaking very early, and his words were like exactly arranged building blocks, perfectly formed and connected. The gift of the French. Also an insight into the mental architecture of the French.
Thanks so much for mentioning the Doidge material. I had become aware of the phenomenon of the plastic brain — the brain that physically changes — through the research someone had done with fish in Lake Victoria: schools of fish have leaders — one leader, I should say. After a leader has been in ‘power’ for a time, other fish challenge it, engaging in fish combat. The victorious fish changes color and takes charge of the school: behavior results in a physical change. “Winning” is an enormous form of learning/inducing physical change that conveys power. Insight into the supreme importance of “winning.”
One of the differences in cultures between Israel and North America is the concept of personal space. In Israel, personal space is much smaller than it is in North America, so one can often find Israelis literally breathing down each others necks while standing in line, for example. One such line happens to be the line at the ATM where I often find the person behind me actually standing so close, he’s already next to me, shoulder to shoulder, seeing my PIN code. And what’s worse is that a look of disapproval in that person’s direction often fails in communicating one’s displeasure with that person’s proximal distance.
Having lived in North America for some time now, I have gotten accustomed to the norms and practices related to personal space. As such, I actually get extremely uncomfortable when someone invades my personal space as defined by North American standards. Even when I travel to other countries or to Israel, I still feel very unconformable when people violate that American personal space standard. Sometimes I try to make a conscience attempt, you know, to take such differences into account when I travel, but it doesn’t always work.
I was standing in line at an airport in the US one day, when two teenagers squeezed in-front of me trying to get across the hall to the other end. They did it so nonchalantly to the point where I thought they were being deliberately inconsiderate punks, so I gave them a stern, “Excuse me!” They looked at me and with a Nordic European accent apologized.
So it’s both interesting and funny how such cultural differences often manifest themselves in the most basic and trivial of matters.
That should read: “conscious attempt……”
Avi,
I want you to know something. I rarely respond to your posts, as you have probably realized. But every time I see your name pop up on the right-hand-side of the homepage, I click to see what you are writing. I want you to know that I appreciate your POV and I find it extraordinarily valuable.
MRW,
Thank you, Sir. I really appreciate it and I appreciate your participation and contribution to the debate as each person’s contribution is valuable in its own way.
“Soviets are orientals, not europeans”
It’s not that long ago that Jews, including European Jews, were considered ‘Orientals’ and the ‘Asiatics of Europe’
link to homes.chass.utoronto.ca
Extremely important point, Antidote, and the crux of Israel’s deep hatred of Iran.
Haggai Ram explains it in, “Iranophobia: The Logic of an Israeli Obsession.”
Israeli Jews, especially Ashkenazi Jews, perceive that the mission of zionism is to bring western values to the benighted Middle East.
Germany in the late 19th and early 20th century was the highest culture in Europe. Jews considered themselves a part of it — it’s “arbiters,” in fact, but Germans Jews thought that they did not get sufficient respect from Germans; German Jews felt that Germans considered Jews to be hated “Orientals.”
Today, Iran holds that category in the eyes of Israeli Jews: Israeli Jews hate Iranians because they consider them backward Orientals, and the concept induces in Jews what Ram calls “moral panic,” because when Jews look at Iran, they see themselves.
So deeply psychotic, and self-destructive, is that mirror-loathing, that some Jews have gone out of their way to spread hatred of Islam and “Orientals” among other people, as a kind of validation for their own hatred: If YOU, white people, hate Orientals, than we must be correct in hating them.
Bernard Lewis, Mike Evans, the AISH.org group that produced the “Obsession” DVD, and Pamela Geller are among the more successful at ginning up hatred of Islam/Orientals. Evans, who styles himself a consultant to Netanyahu, a participant in the David Project, and leader of Congressional seminars on biblical prophesy related to US foreign policy, is author of “The Final Move, Beyond Iraq: The Final Solution While the World Sleeps,” uses the opening two or three chapters of his screed to demand that the Christian world hew to the Bible story and reject Ishmael in favor of Isaac.
psychotic hate-mongering and mirror-loathing indeed. Just watched ‘Obsession’, hadn’t seen it before. I did not get far. Can’t stomach anything with the likes of Caroline Glick in it. Truly scary.
what I intended to add to the mention of Haggai Ram’s thesis about Israeli Jews hating Iran because they see in Iranians a mirror of the hated “Oriental” status that Jews occupied in Europe, was these three points:
-numerous Jewish scholars who compare their religious structures assess that Judaism is more closely related to Islam than to Christianity. Judaism and Islam are religions of interpretation and judgment; Christianity is doctrinely based, for one quick-and-dirty example.
-Jews have been most successful when allied with “Orientals,” — first with Egypt (for between 230 and 480 years); then Persia, for at least 300 years in ancient days; then Babylon, all the way until 1950 AD; with Moors in Spain during the “Golden Age” that endured for nearly 500 years, and finally, when both Muslims and Jews were expelled from Spain, Jews allied with Ottoman Turks at a time when Ottomans contended mightily with Christian Europe for control of Mediterranean and Silk Road trade.
-I forget what third point I had in mind . . .
PG,
The problem I have with the Israelis on this point that is that they go with the prevailing wind. The new enemies are the Iranians. It wasn’t so when the US was courting the Shah, which of course is why they were more than happy to insert themselves into the Iran-Contra affair, even when that extended into the time the Ayatollah took over in January, 1979.
And you are quite right about the Ottoman Muslims and Jews hooking up for over 400 years of peace in Constantinople. From 1492 until 1923. Jews ran the place with the Muslims. I fault the Likudists for their their lack of intelligence and knowledge of history….or if they do have that knowledge (which is highly debatable) for lying to the people who need to know. Ben Gurion complained about this; he thought Menachem Begin was an idiot, and despised him for his small-mindedness.
antidote,
I was 17 when I went to Russia. I hooked up with the daughter of an extremely rich industrialist from Trieste whose father was sending her to Russia to break her communist-at-the-time leanings. She told me something I never forgot. She said you cannot compare the Russians to North Americans, ever. You must first compare them to Europeans, then make your comparisons from there. The Russian mind is different, she told me. Look at the time zones they command: three-quarters of them are in an Asian culture. True.
One side of my family lived in Russia from the 1830s until 1917. They made the odd claim that they returned to the Celtic Isles to procreate. 3,000+ miles by carriage to get laid. Right. One look at my face and you’d know that someone in my ancestral past nicked the scullery maid or a fulsome peasant in a Russian alley. I have Russki written all over me, a fact that even the Russians acknowledged when I was there, all the time. “Look at you. You’re one of us!” Believe me when I say I have the face of a Russian peasant.
That said, and in light of my knowledge of history, real history, not the bullshit they teach American kids, being considered an ‘oriental’ is a badge of honor. Look what they produced. Look what they discovered. Look what they were doing in 200 A.D. that makes so-called western history completely devoid of excellence.
Just to be clear: just about every single western scientific discovery from the 17th C on was discovered by the Chinese, either alone or under Muslim (Genghis Khan) rule long before the Westerners discovered it, including quantum mechanics. Niels Bohr admitted in 1945 that the I Ching — the hexagram version — was the exact code for quantum mechanics, which he got the Nobel Prize for in the 1920s. Asian/Muslim maritime technology produced ships in the 14th C that we, in the 21st C, can’t figure out how to replicate. (The BBC did a show about this in Feb 2010.)
It would be most interesting if those commenters more intimately familiar with Israel than I am, would, in addition to commenting on the impact of Soviet immigrants on Israeli politics, could also mention the impact of US Jewish Zionist multi-millionaire contributors to the settler movement and right-wing Israeli politicians. How significant is this in impacting Israeli politics?
Keith, I hope you are not expecting a bird’ eye view….the impact of the jewish millionaires on Israeli politics is a thousand and one night story, literally….
There was a recent article on just that recently – I think I saw it in Haaretz – the connection was the US oligarchs funding of Netaniahu’s campaign. Did you catch it? if not I’ll try and find it somewhere in my files (which I hate to look through….)
I’d like to see them, Danaa. Didn’t catch that.
MRW, it was actually ynet where I first saw the link. Funny but little mention of it in Haaretz, actually.
link to ynetnews.com
It’ easy to take it from here – I know there wa omewhere a tory about who and how was Olmert funded too. I do recommend checking the Austrian mogul Schlaff saga in haaretz – they had a 4 part investigative series on that character. make for intesreting, if sordid reading.
When looking for the link I also came ac ross these two interesting articles on the Israeli version of the oncoming oligarchy. Looks like a mini-version of what’s happening in the US – and then some.
link to english.themarker.com
link to haaretz.com
Too many missing S characters and typos to correct, sorry. Hope it’s understandable….some day all will be fixed….
Danaa:
But, as others have observed, after a decade, or jut a few years, some start changing their attitudes, more so and faster the younger they were when they arrived.
That’s not my experience and I have known members of both groups.
In the small sample that I have anecdotal evidence for, Russian Jews – even those who have been in America for 20 years and more – can be counted on for holding views to the right of Netanyahu. I’ll concede that it could be that these impressions have stayed with me because they were expressed rather crudely. Perhaps, Americans have mastered the art of insinuation, or polite silence. Perhaps Russians speak more honestly and are no more rightwing than native Westerners.
My sense of the Russian emigre community is that there is a culture that upholds harsh views regarding Arabs. This has also been articulated to me by American, Russian Jews about their own community.
All, either of us has got is anecdotal. I’d be happy to be proven wrong.
Elliott, chances are we were looking at different samples. Mine do tend to come from the techno and/or academic world, and those are often less politically interested and less involved in eg, jewish community life in general – be they Russian or not. Perhaps my particular sample, being, by their own admission, less savvy politically, are a bit easier to sway with new facts and experiences or just with the passage of time. The biggest problem I encountered with Russian emigres in my world is that they may be creative alright, but working in a team does not seem to come naturally to them. They tend to hoard information and always have a eye looking over their shoulder. Having them learn to trust their own team members has in my experience, often turned out to be harder than getting them to rethink a political viewpoint (and I am talking baby steps).
So, in the absence of a complete social study (and I don’t really have a good one to quote from), we may have to just leave it at this…
Condoleezza Rice spoke at the Commonwealth Club of California recently. She mentioned that Russia had a very highly educated population, but that a large portion of its educated people could not find creative employment to put their skills to work. Thus, many of them emigrate to the US or “to Israel, even if they are not Jewish.”
I mentioned this at a recent meeting of J Streeters recently, emphasizing that many of Israel’s Russian immigrants, who contributed greatly to Israel’s technology boom, were not Jewish.
A man across the room said, “They are Jewish.”
Thinking he had misunderstood me, I repeated: “Dr. Rice said that many were not Jewish.”
The man across the room smiled slyly and said, “Believe me, they are Jewish. There are only two kinds of people in Israel, Jews and Arabs. The Russians are Jews.”
Avrum Burg was instrumental in bringing non-Jewish Russians to Israel; he passed the legislation to make it happen. It’s what happened in the 1990s.
Russia, unbeknownst to most, had one of the highest and best educational systems in the world since 1917. At least, before the USSR broke up. It waaay the US system. By far.
Meant to write: It waaay exceeded the US system.
There is no scientific test for determining who is Jewish. Karl Lueger, whose election in Vienna gave Herzl such an important stimulus, used to say ‘I decide who is a Jew’, and in circumstances where the question is important someone always has to make this decision. Richard Ben Cramer (How Israel Lost) says that the religious authorities in Israel do not recognise many of the Russians as Jewish by their theological tests, but that for political purposes they are very Jewish indeed, extremely anxious to validate their status by mightily smiting the Palestinians, whilst ostentatiously and with a certain enjoyable uncouthness scorning the social democratic and west-Euro cultural paraphernalia that had seemed so important in earlier decades. Yitzhak Laor (Myths of Liberal Zionism) seems to me very convincing about how all this Europeanism was a mask for an exploitative colonial enterprise. On this showing the Russians did not so much transform Israel into something different as expose what it had always had been.