JPost: Palestinians who try to force their way into West Bank settlements during the mass protests in favor of statehood anticipated for September 20 “will be shot,” chief settler security officer Shlomo Vaknin told The Jerusalem Post on Thursday.
NOT IN MY NAME, NEVER!
I am ashamed , I am mortified. Why doesn't the world stand up to this potential slaughter? As the UN goes into Libya to bring down yet another "dictator," Israel is committing the worst crimes against humanity and I am sick. Many of us are sick. You see the demonstrations and the resistance coming from many venues, yet the US, the country that preaches democracy, remains completely complicit, refuses to see, to acknowledge the crimes against humanity. I feel as if I am witness to Marat Sade, as we watch the lunatics play out their diabolical missions. Enough, I say.
"I am mortified, your blood has turned to ice. Israel, not my Israel, country of lies and deception.
Give me the strength to resist to cry out NO!
You who have dehumanized the "other" as you were once dehumanized. You who know the final solution.
Have you learned nothing?
Has your history inflicted madness on you? Have you lost your reason?
Don't you know you are killing yourselves, you demonize the hated self that was so demonized onto you only two generations ago.
You perpetuate hate and do not know what you are doing.
For God's sake end this monstrous behavior before it's too late."
What is the problem? Palestinians will only be shot if they “force their way into West Bank settlements”. Forcing yourself into someone’s home is not non-violence. And since they have been warned, they probably won’t do it.
What is the problem? Palestinians will only be shot if they “force their way into West Bank settlements”. Forcing yourself into someone’s home is not non-violence. And since they have been warned, they probably won’t do it.
What is the problem? Settlers will only be shot if they “force their way into [Palestinian villages]“. Forcing yourself into someone’s home is not non-violence. And since they have been warned, they probably won’t do it – except for the fact that they haven’t been warned and only settlers are issued with firearms and legally allowed to carry them. Oh, and the security forces are also primarily (exclusively?) charged with ensuring the settlers’ protection. Sounds like a fair arrangement to me.
Shmuel,
What is your point? Settlers are acting violently when they force themselves into Arab communities. We agree. And we also agree that there is a stronger side with more guns. It does not change the fact that if Palestinians try to enter settlements with force, that is a violent act.
eeee
It was usually violent when they forced the owners and inhabitants off their land in order to build their ugly settlements. They would be criminals unjustifiably defending their stolen property to most of us.
What is your point?
You tried to justify a violent and provocative statement (btw, not every violent act warrants being shot) by a representative of a group that has a record of shooting and otherwise attacking Palestinians (both violent and non-violent) – with virtual impunity. You have also justified arming the settlers, because their lives are truly in danger. Yet, when it comes to Palestinian lives, you pull out your shit happens argument.
But since you don’t believe in universal principles of morality, international law or human rights, no point I guess. Whatever serves the national interest, eh?
Shmuel,
No, I am not in favor of arming my enemies. I know that most countries before they go to war, the US for example, make sure that their enemies have state of the art weapons like them, so it will be a fair fight. After all they, unlike me, believe in universal principles of morality etc. As for their national interests, why, it is just an after thought to them. I am sorry Israelis are not saints like some imaginary country you have in mind.
“I know that most countries before they go to war, the US for example, make sure that their enemies have state of the art weapons like them, so it will be a fair fight.”
Now I get it! That’s why the US made sure Saddam Hussein had WMDs before they attacked Iraq?
Who said anything about arming enemies? Honour your commitments to the international conventions you have signed regarding the protection of the lives and property of occupied populations, and defend yourself to your heart’s content.
You say the settlers are already there and need to be defended? Leave their defence – as well as the defence of the Palestinian population which Israel is obligated to protect – to the security forces, and take action against big-mouthed, trigger-happy vigilantes, like Shlomo Vaknin. If I ran the zoo (God forbid), I’d sack Vaknin and do my absolute best to prevent violence and tempers from flaring. Why do you feel the need to defend this dangerous, swaggering pyromaniac?
Hey, wait a minute here; eee is right, I mean a settlement is nothing more than a gated community like we have here is the states. We whites have a right to our gated communities and they are gated to prevent those who threaten our way of life, our women and our values from entering and harming us. Like blacks and those Mexicans and those Asians, and them Jews. Well, maybe not them Jews. We would have a right to shoot to kill if we were invaded by them colored hordes.
Well, I suppose there is a difference, when I come to think of it: Things have deteriorated here in the states. That white exclusiveness deal all ended in the states during the last century, about 50 years ago. Here in the states we discovered our constitution prevents us from discriminating against people (citizens and non) because of their color, or race or religion or gender. We can have our settlements (“gated communities”) but anybody can live in them, no matter what color, religion, race or gender. Even them Ayrabs.
We are just not allowed anymore to keep them darkies and them Ayrabs out. We can’t even prevent people from selling their property to them Jews anymore. Imagine that eee. Place has gone to hell. Hey eee, I yearn for them olden days of yore. Can you get me into Israel, say onto a settlement? I mean I am diaspora shanty Irish so I problably can find some Jewish DNA in my blood line. Don’t I have a right of return too?
Why did everything go down hill for us whites here in the states? Because we have something called a constitution and the only democracy in the Middle East still doesn’t have one even though it was promised in Israel’s founding documents. There is a reason you don’t have one eee, because if you did it would say “Jews Only” and “No Ayrabs allowed”. Why eee, its apparently still legal in your great democracy to make women ride in the backs of buses, and not wear suggestive clothing so as not to hurt the sensibilities of bearded, hatted, male Hasedic riders. That recently created a bit of a storm in Israel when it came to commuter trains. Women, mostly those slutty non-orthodox ones, decided they didn’t want to be told where to sit. So, what was the solution of the great democracy of the Middle East? Tell those religious Jewish fundamentalists to not take the train or bus if they don’t to sit with or gaze upon them slutty women? Nooo. The solution was to create a separate train car for Jewish men. Now there’s civil rights for ya. What a democracy. Them Israelis, ya gotta love um.
>> Forcing yourself into someone’s home is not non-violence.
But ethnically cleansing them is OK. What a hateful human being you are.
Forcing yourself into someone’s house is always violent but sometimes justified. If the only way to save your life is to enter that house for example. So eljay, in the same way, cleansing is always a violent act but is sometimes justified as in the case of the Palestinians.
I’m really glad you’re here, eee. I think you do more to further the Palestinian cause than anyone else I know.
Funny I’d say that your cohorts do the same for the Zionists cause.
Rania,
Read what Carter wrote today in the NY times about the right of return:
“The Palestinians will have to refrain from violence, accept Israel’s right to exist in peace within the 1967 borders (modified through negotiations with land swaps), a long-term presence of either U.N. or NATO peacekeeping forces within Palestine, and the right of return of its people to its own lands (with perhaps a token number to Israel). Israelis would, in the process, accept the same borders and peacekeeping presence.”
Even Carter understands that the cleansing was justified and irreversible.
excuse me? Even Carter understands that the cleansing was justified? where do you come up with this?
and don’t give me this irreversible stuff. you can’t see into the future. you can speculate into the next decade or two but who are you say what will be in even 100 years?
“Even Carter understands that the cleansing was justified and irreversible”
Really? So when someone decides to ‘cleanse’ you, you won’t have a problem with that. Right?
You’re a real nutcase.
If in 1948 an Op-Ed writer has described the litany of events that led to Israel’s creation, would you then have claimed the writer understood the Holocaust was justified?
As in who? The fundamental difference is that you justify and support colonialism. Everything you write and between the lines.
We do not support apartheid or special privilege for someone because they are Jewish. We don’t support special laws for someone because they are Jewish. We don’t say, because he is a Jew he can go live on another people’s land. We don’t boycott children’s art because it makes us look bad.
DBG, get it through your head. You came to Mondoweiss. We did not go to some Zionist blog.
And I personally don’t believe in dialogue cultists and supremacists (victimhood is a treasure for Zionist Jews). This blog is amazing in that it functions as a news source and because it has tapped into the daily goings on in Israel/Palestine.
Mondoweiss is the zeitgeist of the conflict.
The hope is that good people who aren’t bound by your ethno-religious nationalism and selfishness; people who have a set of ethics that are not contorted to fit a nationalism – will see the articles here and the repulsive apologetics and sophistry from Zionism and as a result come to their senses about Israel and Palestine.
It’s like I said before, you seem to think you’re subjected to harsh criticism because of your identity. Wrong. It’s your actions.
Every revolting post by a Israel firster like hophmi in which is disassembles and produces claptrap that goes like “blah blah but Israel is no worse than [insert random other country] blah blah” further alienates decent rational people viewing the site.
Who are you winning over?
These conflicts don’t resolve themselves quickly. Look at history. Change comes slowly.
I have faith in the Palestinian cause becoming more appealing over time rather than the reverse. The reverse requires that the US becomes ‘Israelified’.
“Even Carter understands that the cleansing was justified and irreversible.”
There’s nothing there about justification. Irreversible–maybe, but probably not for a reason that does your side any credit.
What some advocates of the two state solution do think is that there is no way to get the Israelis to live with Palestinians in peace. You guys have a vast sense of entitlement about the land you’ve taken and your alleged right to keep Palestinians from coming back to their own homeland. So people throw their hands up and are willing to settle (on behalf of the Palestinians) for a two state solution, recognizing that even getting this much from the Israelis will be like pulling teeth.
When I’ve supported the two state solution that was my reasoning. To the extent I’d settle for it now it is still my reasoning. But it’s not really my decision to make–it’s for Palestinians to decide.
I someone thinks he has no choice but to try to cleanse me, I would understand why he was trying to cleanse me, but not agree with him. I would fight against him of course.
My point is that no one expects the Palestinians to think their ethnic cleansing was justified. They of course believe it was not. The point is that people like Carter do not demand the right of return because they understand that the ethnic cleansing was the only way to end the war. There will be very little pressure on Israel to agree to the right of return because of this.
highjacking carter’s legacy isn’t going to add validity to your lame a** argument, you know that i presume. seriously eee, get.a.grip.
I think you just told us what you’re doing in Gaza. What do you keep telling us, that you’re at war with the Gazans, eee?
So eljay, in the same way, cleansing is always a violent act but is sometimes justified as in the case of the Palestinians…Even Carter understands that the cleansing was justified…If someone thinks he has no choice but to try to cleanse me, I would understand why he was trying to cleanse me.
First off, you’re absolutely insane.
Good, now that we got that out of the way, are you effin’ crazy?!
What part of the argument do you have problems with?
The Benny Morris thesis.
stunning.
Is this what Truman signed on to? Was this necessary ethnic cleansing envisioned and endorsed in the Balfour Declaration, and the 1922 League of Nations mandate, and the 1948 UN vote?
probably the lie. you humping something carter would never say or do for your own warped racist desire to cleanse ethnic cleansing of it’s stench that will never go away or be ok and is a war crime and completely illegal under international law and you choose a man of peace and pretend he agrees with you. ridiculous. you’re a joke 3e. what’s next? gonna claim mlk agrees genocide is ok under certain circumstances?
Annie,
Carter writes that only a token number of Palestinians will return to Israel. Carter has said that he is in favor of a Jewish state. Carter knows the history and the fact that without the cleansing there would not be a Jewish state. So my interpretation is based on facts. What is your interpretation and what is it based on?
Apparently you don’t know the difference between facts and opinions. At least Carter recognised apartheid when he saw it. That’s a fact.
But when do we get the Ignore button that we’ve been promised?
“What part of the argument do you have problems with?”
The whole thing is something that fell out of the back end of the elephant! Totally warped nonsense eee. And by the way, when are you (as in Israeli taxpayers) going to compensate your victims of ethnic cleansing, land theft, destruction and theft of property – not forgetting injury.death? Do you think 90% tax for 100 years would cover the level of damages Israel ought to be paying?
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine was not and will not ever be justified, PRECISELY because it STILL CONTINUES TO THIS DAY.
There was never a historical context for the Zionist Original Sin.
It was opportunistic. It was about LAND. You couldn’t have it without getting rid of those Arab villages and peoples. And you’re still doing it TODAY!
You have no moral high-ground. It’s just that, you’ve been raised in your victim-hood bubble without any kind of catharsis.
People don’t change for the better through gratification and success. It takes real work. Empathy and common sense are not genetic and are not a birthright.
You lack both. Get over yourself.
Only a blind fool like meee claims disingenously that arming settlers is about ‘self-defence’. This is about inciting the settlers, who already attack and steal from Palestinians, to use firearms and kill them. This is nothing to do with Palestinians entering their well-guarded homes. It is do with settlers attacking Palestinian homes with the blessing of their militia, the IDF. And all they will have to say is that they were ‘attacked’. It is about giving impunity to fundamentalist right wing fascists, with the blessing and collusion of the state.
Flashback:
Source:
link to haaretz.com
According to figures gathered by the Hiddush organization for freedom of religion in Israel, during the last decade the number of draft dodgers has doubled. The arrangement to defer service for yeshiva students made by Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion in 1949 stated that a larger number of yeshiva students would be exempt from service, on the condition that they dedicate all their time to religious studies and nothing else – not even other types of education or volunteer work. At that time, yeshiva students numbered 400. In 2010, that number had grown to 62,500, an increase of 15,500 percent.
Hiddush has discovered that Ben-Gurion regretted this arrangement. On the organization’s Facebook page is a letter that Ben-Gurion sent on September 12, 1963, from his home in Sde Boker, to Prime Minister Levi Eshkol (a photo of the original, in Ben-Gurion’s handwriting, has been located by Haaretz ). “I am not of the opinion that you need my advice on matters of government, and of course I would not consider giving it, but the unruliness of fanatics crosses all bounds,” Ben-Gurion wrote (referring to the violent demonstrations by the ultra-Orthodox on Saturdays in Jerusalem ). “I am of the opinion that I am responsible for this to some extent: I released yeshiva students from army service. I did so when their number was small, but now they are increasing. When they run amok, they represent a danger to the honor of the state. We cannot appear to the world like Alabama or South Africa.”
Ben-Gurion suggested an idea to Eshkol that could be useful against the current violent attacks by the ultra-Orthodox in Beit Shemesh. “I recommend that every young man 18 and up who is caught in these illegal gatherings throwing stones, attacking citizens and other hooliganism, be immediately drafted into the army, to serve 30 months like every other young person in Israel [before the occupied territories supplied us with a secure border, army service was only two and a half years], not in a religious office but as a simple soldier.” And Ben-Gurion signed off the letter with the suggestion “to examine the case of every yeshiva student to see whether he should be exempt from army duty.”
Nonsense. Not only does entering a settlement not mean entering someone’s home, but merely entering public grounds (from which one is excluded by means of racist discrimination) – it is of course not necessarily violent. Violent means using destructive force – normally with the potential to inflict actual harm on people. Simply marching into a village is not violent.
And just FYI: In most of the civilized world “trespassers will be shot” is illegal. (I’m saying “most” because I wouldn’t it put some US states, especially those starting with “Tex” to differ. But generally speaking, murdering trespassers is just that.)
Koshiro,
The settlements are fenced. If a fence is brought down, is that violence or not? How can one know the intent of a crowd and what they plan to do once inside a settlement? I don’t think the settlers plan to take chances. If Palestinians do march on settlements it will be a huge mistake on their part.
Yeah eee, I agree with you. I mean its not like its their land or anything. Settlements, after all, are just gated communities like we have here in the states. [See my earlier comment above at 7:38 pm, just after Shmuel's 4:41pm comment, for my expanded discussion on the inherent rights of settlers. I agreed with you on that one too eee.]
I mean, just because the Nazis got to have their parade in Skokie a few years back, doesn’t mean the Pals, who are foreigners anyway, have a right to demonstrate. Oops, I misspoke: The Pals can’t be Palestinians because as we all know, or should know by now, there is no such thing as a Palestinian, just Ayrabs that properly belong in Jordan which was stolen from the Jews by the British who gave it to the Jordanians who weren’t even Jordanians but were instead Bedoin drifters who have no country and just should keep moving along. Kind of like you guys are keeping them moving along in the so-called Jordan valley.
Hey, do I have this stuff down or what?
Of course it’s not violence. Was that a joke question? Then again, by your logic, Gandhi’s brutal burning of his helpless passport would probably pass as “violence”.
eee, if a person enters another person’s house in order to save his own life, what duty, if any, do you think the intruder has to the homeowner once he is in the house?
“eee, if a person enters another person’s house in order to save his own life, what duty, if any, do you think the intruder has to the homeowner once he is in the house?”
Rania,
That is a fair question. If he is invited in as a guest, then he has to behave as a guest. If the owner fights him to stop his entry, I do not know what the etiquette is, but the result will not be amicable.
LOL! Spoken like a true Israel. Speaking out against trespassing would be shooting yourself in the foot, after all.
Indeed! Let’s say a Jewish person runs into another Jewish person’s home in order to save his own life. Does the home belong to the trespasser by virtue of his reason for entering, or does it still belong to the homeowner? Does title vest depending on the intent of the trespasser, or does it remain with the homeowner regardless of the trespasser’s intent? Remember, both the owner and the trespasser are Jewish.
Rania,
The home of course is disputed, especially when the question involves the children and grandchildren of the original actors.
The correct analogy is the following. A person forcefully enters the house of another person to save his life. The two struggle and it is clear that if both remain in the house, they will be constantly fighting. Therefore, they try to evict each other. One side succeeds. 63 years pass, and by now the house is filled with the children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren of the original actors who are already dead. The least one can say is that the house is disputed.
>> eee September 14, 2011 at 10:30 am
OMG, that is hilarious! It’s bad enough that you believe that garbage, but that you would actually write it out in defense of your “common sense” stupidity is absolutely astounding!
Maybe you *should* quit your day job after all…
eljay, please don’t encourage eee to quit! We need him! I actually think he needs a bigger mouthpiece than Mondoweiss. He should be writing for the New York Times or even DailyKos. The world needs to hear his voice. He is the true face of Zionism.
Anyway, eee, thank you for responding to my hypothetical with such intellectual honesty. You make me happy that I practice law in the United States. I can only imagine the kind of evasiveness and mental gymnastics it would take to practice law in Israel.
That’s what Hitler said. No, seriously, that is what Hitler said, it’s not even a joke. The whole idea of seizing Jewish property was predicated on the notion that “German security” depended on it.
Why now? Why all this shame now? Palestinians have been killed for lesser offences for a while now. What did you expect in the beginning? Did you expect all of them to just go somewhere else to make way for your dream land?
I guess it’s better late that never. But I wouldn’t give any of you a badge for this.
thanks for the blast of fresh air, tod
“But I wouldn’t give any of you a badge for this.”
I’ve got $5* that say that if a peaceful solution is ever achieved, there will be a lot of self-congratulatory badges handed out by and to Israelis for “self-sacrifice”, “willingness to compromise”, “accepting [fill in blank] for the sake of peace”, etc. We’ll have to hold our noses.
(*And that’s Australian dollars, not dodgy American stuff.)
we all know violence will explode as Palestinians celebrate the founding and recognition of their state and it will be started by and overwhelmingly done by zionist extremist settlers with the full backing of the IDF and much of the israeli populace … it is my sincere hope that the Palestinians and those there to celebrate with them will remain non-violent no matter what happens – document, document, document what happens – do live feeds where possible … the world will see once again what monsters these settlers and many zionists are
Still, the header Jews who kill suggests it would be different for non-Jews.
the zionists probably believe they’re humane because they don’t cut off the heads of palestinians & hang them on poles for everyone to see, as the french did in vietnam & before that the americans in the phillipines
“hey, we don’t do that, we merely shoot protesters with bullets (some rubber, some not) and tear gas cannisters, so ain’t we humane?”
still, the only good native is a dead native, and by whatever vintage, ain’t that the basic motiff of colonialism?
except a century or so down river, there’ll be a book or a movie which will depict the way it really was/is, and the colonizers will say something like, “can’t deny it, those early settlers definitely were butchers, glad that today we’re not like them, so can’t blame us for their crimes.”
which will be easy to say since there’ll be no or hardly any natives left
“Shame on Israel”
“Shame”? How many divisions?
I love Lilian Rosengarten. She is such a decent human being.
This is antizionism
link to northernsun.com
God bless the whole world. No exceptions