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‘If the world turns on us, we will go North Korea on them’ — say some Israelis

Israel/Palestine
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Last week I interviewed the writer and activist Yossi Gurvitz in a Tel Aviv cafe about rightwing extremism in Israeli society, and he said he hears many Israelis saying that if their country comes under pressure from the outside world, it should “go North Korea” but with the power of real nukes, not fake nukes. He also said that if there were a serious move by Israel to evacuate settlers from the West Bank, it would result in a coup by rightwing pro-settler officers.

It’s all in the interview above. That interview begins with Gurvitz’s description of a terrifying human-rights case in the West Bank and culminates with his analysis of the rightwing militarist power over Israeli leadership.

Here are the highlights:

Gurvitz works for the Israeli human rights organization Yesh Din. A week before we met, he published this highly-disturbing account of a Palestinian girl who was circled and attacked by Jewish settlers inside a vine-covered hut on her family’s land near Bethlehem. Israeli police did not do anything about the attack because it was on the Sabbath.

Think what it is to be a child… a teenager in a place where you are afraid to leave your house… You learn either to be very afraid and close yourself in, very bitter and become violent, or flee.

Gurvitz related the Palestinian girl’s experience to Martin Luther King Jr.’s Letter from a Birmingham Jail, and King’s comments about the amusement park his daughter could not visit:

[King said that his] tongue was twisted as he tried to explain to his five year old daughter why she could not go to Funtown. A cloud of despair enters her mind before his eyes…

You live in a world where you are not equal. You are not expected to be equal…. It’s not a glass ceiling. The ceiling is right over their heads.

I responded by asking, As an American Jew, what can I conclude from this story except that this system needs to be destroyed? Gurvitz responded that American Jews should feel the responsibility of tikkun olam: to report on these conditions, and act on them.

I asked whether the situation recalls Algeria or South Africa or Jim Crow. Gurvitz says that he thinks of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, but that historical analogies can be misleading. No situation is quite similar to another. “We have a small nation supported by an empire, who is busily encroaching on the lands of its neighbors with the support of that empire.”

But the difference is that Israel also has nuclear weapons. He says at 6:15:

I think this is where historical analogies stop. Because I hear time and time again, mostly on the right, but not just on the right, people are saying, ‘Well if the world turns on us, we will go North Korea on them, and we do have the nukes. They’re not fake.’ So we speak about Iran as an irrational country …. an irrational leadership about to get its own nukes. Israel’s third largest party is the Bayit Yehudi, which is composed of some serious nuts… people who spoke about blowing up the Temple Mount…. spoke about transferring the Palestinians….The official position of the party is the unofficial policy of the Israeli government, the annexation of Area C with the expulsion of as many Palestinians as possible… A part of Likud is led by Avigdor Lieberman who has suggested nuking the Aswan Dam in Egypt and Teheran.

Obama knows this? I ask.

Everyone knows this. It’s not much of a secret. These are public policies, public speeches. They are available.

I then venture that if international pressure turned on Israel, including from the U.S., it might result in rightwing violence, as in Algeria and France in the early 60s. Gurvitz:

If we use the Algerian example, then we have a serious problem here… Recall, the French military in Algeria mutinied, and the mutiny was put down by soldiers loyal to the republic. We don’t have a concept of loyalty to the republic. We have a concept of loyalty to the country, loyalty to the homeland, loyalty to the Jewish religion, but we don’t have a sense of loyalty to the republic. So the settlers are moving their men quite explicitly to more and more higher positions in the army precisely to prevent any settler evacuation.

Gurvitz says that if Israeli politicians ordered a disengagement from the West Bank, it would result in a mutiny in the military. He believes this likely because there is an “out of control military rabbinate.” One leading rabbi in the military rabbinate wrote a statement justifying rape during war time. Other military rabbis published a book of rulings saying that gentile officers should not lead Jews.

These are the ingredients of a coup, not a civil war, Gurvitz concludes.

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90 Responses

  1. traintosiberia
    traintosiberia
    September 19, 2013, 9:51 am

    Reading the exposition of the religious teachings during war by the rabbi and listening to the urging s for help by the being raped girl ,one can only wonder at the depth of the cesspool the Israeli morality is in for a while. Once one is inside and listens or reads the religious explanation in the service of the moser base instinct of human beings,it is easy to fall prey to these ornamental pseudo legal undertones of the most vicious approval of the worst human nature that is unfortunately repeatedly unleashed by the war that is not necessary ,that is waged to sustain a particular environment and that is never meant to end. Religion is established by sword – we been told agains Israeli enemies. – we see the sword is being protected by the religion.
    972 mag article shows that the sophist is still free poisoning the society ,they are busy reinventing a culture that did not survive when there was no Christianity or Islam or enlightenment or renaissance or Darwin or Collins or Freud or Einestein. It failed to flourish as. simple folks and learned alike could see the beastly nature of these
    teachings. The contradictions that Israel want preserve with the might of the sword will face same fate as that of Nazism and Fasism and the religion that allows itself to be hijacked by these perverts and by these sort of perverted explanation will face the same fate as that of Heaven Gate and of the Lords Army

  2. marc b.
    marc b.
    September 19, 2013, 9:58 am

    These are the ingredients of a coup, not a civil war, Gurvitz concludes.

    a coup, and then a civil war, are not mutually exclusive possibilities. see . . . um . . . history. a right-wing coup would lead to chaos, including an attempted mass exodus of secular elements. would the right wing religious militarists permit the exodus of some of the best and brightest employed and/or managing in the technical fields? is this another extension of the N. Korea analogy, religious and military authorities imprisoning, more or less, nuclear technicians, software engineers, etc.? sounds more like the paranoid periods of the CCCP than N. Korea though.

  3. Shingo
    Shingo
    September 19, 2013, 10:03 am

    An outstanding interview Phil. Your stories are becoming more and more insightful and cutting edge and this is a perfect example of the insanity that pervades the Israeli elite.

    Peter Beinart seriously needs to see this.

  4. traintosiberia
    traintosiberia
    September 19, 2013, 10:09 am

    So we hear from that so called atheist like Harris and like Maher and their ilk that the religions are the source of all evil conveniently forgetting to include recent examples of Judiaism and the secular west joined at the hip with Israel whose every bone of strength s buit on the religion or to be more precise on the evil interpretation of the scripture . Sometimes one wonder whether there wil be any idea ,any law,any morality,any philosophy that won’t be misused and exploitated by
    Israel and its secular supporters alike .there is a valid ground to nurture and mobilize secularism,atheism,and openness to discuss even the most darkest part of the huan history but their adherents should never be allowed to come within the thousand mile perimeter of the precinct debating and trying to understand those complexities They have ulterior motive that serves the purpose of the doctrine based society by a different mask

    • K Renner
      K Renner
      September 19, 2013, 10:58 am

      The one thing is secularism doesn’t go by default hand in hand with militant atheism, and it shouldn’t be shown as doing so, regardless of what idiots like Maher say.

      • bilal a
        bilal a
        September 19, 2013, 1:03 pm

        Secularism isnt violent unless it obtains power as a Nationalist defensive entity, at which point anything can be justified on ‘bringing freedom’ and national security grounds, eg. saving the Iraqi people by bombing their water treatment plants. Europe may be the most violent in eventual effects towards global citizens, but is also brutal at home:

        On Thursday, Dirk and Petra Wunderlich reportedly saw authorities storm their home and remove their four children, ages seven to 14. The offense? Continuing to homeschool their children, despite the government’s laws against doing so.

        As TheBlaze previously reported, an immigration judge granted the parents and children asylum in 2010, but the U.S. government appealed, arguing that laws against homeschooling don’t constitute human rights infractions.
        http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/30/brutal-and-vicious-armed-german-police-storm-homeschooling-familys-house-and-forcibly-seize-children-report-claims/#

      • Marco
        Marco
        September 19, 2013, 1:58 pm

        I disagree bilal. There’s nothing that prevents secular people from violence in defense of a. their ideology and b. their race or nationality even in a multi-cultural state like the U.S.

        Israel confirms that secular ethno-nationalism can be every bit as violent as religious ethno-nationalism, as if we needed that lesson given 20th century history.

  5. Scott
    Scott
    September 19, 2013, 10:12 am

    Important interview. “Obama knows this?” you ask. I tend to doubt it. He might have known it once, but it is possible to suppress knowledge when it becomes inconvenient. Now everyone “knows” that there are all these crazy Muslims who want to destroy the peaceful children of Israel, any other knowledge is dangerous to hold. You can only keep so many perceptions in your head at once, and the when they clash, some get stored in an inaccessible place.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      September 19, 2013, 11:01 am

      I do wonder just how much Obama knows about the real Israel. Seems to me, he probably heard a lot of macro negativity concerning “white devils,” including Jews, during the 20 years he was friends with Jeremiah Wright. When he campaigned for POTUS, he said Wright’s POV was not his own, and Wright replied Obama was posing.
      20 Years is a long friendship. It takes a few minutes to read a counter denial from a teleprompter, one written by your staff. As POTUS, except for parts in his Cairo speech, he’s spoken hasbara boilerplate all along, but being careful not to rhetorically demonize all Muslims. How much does he know about the history of the I-P conflict?
      How much does he know about daily life in Israeli-controlled land for non-Jews? Does he know about the USS Liberty, Truman’s POV on launching recognition of Israel, the state, the Lavon Affair, JFK’s attempt to prevent Israel from getting the bomb, his brother’s attempt to make AIPAC’s predecessor sign on as agent of a foreign government, Israel stealing nuke triggers from the USA, squelching of the AIPAC spy case, all the unbalanced MOUs the US has with Israel, etc? Who would actually know and spread such information? I’m sure he knows Pappy Bush paid a big price for going to the American people over the head of Congress and AIPAC concerning cutting off loan guarantees to Israel in the interest of a real peace process.

      If you just look at his actions, he decided to push a “small” strike on Syria, pushed out in the open by AIPAC, and when the American people voiced disapproval by a ratio of 80/20, he about-faced and flipped the ball to Congress–I guess, because he figured Congress would do what it always does, and rubber-stamp what AIPAC wants–but he guessed wrong–because the orchestrated zionist letters, emails, phone calls, web contacts to each congress person were 100 to 1 against a strike on Syria. He was about to get a drubbing when Kerry slipped on his own cock-sure arrogance-political sense and Putin called Obama on it.

      • Scott
        Scott
        September 19, 2013, 6:48 pm

        I wouldn’t make so much of his relationship with Rev. J. Wright. Obama needed to Black Americanize his sort of hybrid identity when he came to Chicago, and hanging out in his wife’s popular black mega church was one route to do this. He was quite genuinely friendly with Rashid Khalidi however, and I suspect then he did learn something about Israel. And since learned it’s expedient to forget it.

  6. Woody Tanaka
    Woody Tanaka
    September 19, 2013, 11:01 am

    “Well if the world turns on us, we will go North Korea on them, and we do have the nukes. They’re not fake.”

    Isn’t is nice that this nation of lunatics is supported so handsomely by the US??

  7. K Renner
    K Renner
    September 19, 2013, 11:01 am

    More people should hear about this sort of demented thinking that seems to be increasing in Israeli circles.

    I don’t think a lot of people who support Israel out of ignorance or naivety or guilt “because the holocaust” would be happy to hear that there are very real circles of people, and political elements in the country that would be more then happy to start a major armed event or war instead of actually taking real steps to help fix the situation in Palestine.

  8. Nevada Ned
    Nevada Ned
    September 19, 2013, 11:06 am

    Israel have gradually drifted to the political right over the last decades. IMHO this is explained by Israel’s constant oppression of the Palestinians and Israel’s wars with Arab countries. Those conflicts have shaped Israeli society, its ideology and national character.
    Israel’s right-wing extremists are less and less a fringe group. Increasingly they are the norm.

    • seafoid
      seafoid
      September 19, 2013, 12:49 pm

      The 1977 election was a watershed.
      The settlers had their people in charge and the rest is history.

      I guess the Likud and its fellow travellers had a big hand in the current shape of the education system too.

    • Keith
      Keith
      September 19, 2013, 6:13 pm

      NEVADA NED- “Israel have gradually drifted to the political right over the last decades.”

      So has the US and the rest of the world, with the exception of South America. It is a global phenomenon which must be analyzed accordingly.

  9. Citizen
    Citizen
    September 19, 2013, 11:25 am

    When it comes to anything Israel, what Obama knows is to walk on the most delicate egg shells imaginable and carry no stick, just the biggest hefty bag full of taxpayer cash. Only a huge groundswell of unusual populist (80/20 NO)opinion prevented him from striking Syria in behalf the din of AIPAC in his ear; he got cold feet at the last moment, and flipped the ball to Congress, again thinking AIPAC would carry the day, as it always did in Congress–but not even the congress critters could ignore getting 100 spontaneous contacts from the masses supporting NO to every (orchestrated) YES. He was about to get his ass handed to him when Putin, taking advantage of Kerry’s loose lips (channeling Beiden), saved said ass.

  10. eljay
    eljay
    September 19, 2013, 12:34 pm

    >> Gurvitz works for the Israeli human rights organization Yesh Din. A week before we met, he published this highly-disturbing account of a Palestinian girl who was circled and attacked by Jewish settlers inside a vine-covered hut on her family’s land near Bethlehem. Israeli police did not do anything about the attack because it was on the Sabbath.

    Behold oppressive and religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in all its splendour.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      September 19, 2013, 9:31 pm

      It’s self determination and a safe haven for persecuted Jews, eljay.

  11. American
    American
    September 19, 2013, 12:42 pm

    Go North Korea on the world?
    Sounds like what is called ‘suicide by cop’ to me.

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      September 19, 2013, 1:21 pm

      More like the mother of all suicide bombing attacks.

  12. seafoid
    seafoid
    September 19, 2013, 12:52 pm

    I like Gurvitz. He reminds me of something Alfred North Whitehead wrote once

    “It requires a very unusual mind to undertake the analysis of the obvious.”

    • American
      American
      September 19, 2013, 1:09 pm

      seafoid says:
      September 19, 2013 at 12:52 pm

      “It requires a very unusual mind to undertake the analysis of the obvious.”
      >>>>>>>

      LOL
      So what kind of mind does it take to deny the obivous?

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        September 19, 2013, 4:18 pm

        American
        A lot of effort goes into brainwashing israeli kids. Nobody is thinking in zion. Apart from outsiders like Gurvitz and the Palestinians.

      • American
        American
        September 19, 2013, 4:42 pm

        @ seafoid

        I’m sure, but what to do about it?
        No solution for the crazies I can see.

    • Chu
      Chu
      September 19, 2013, 1:30 pm

      Good quote. the Israeli conscience is so warped, only the few inside the system can see the problems. And all the help from the diaspora brothers and sisters makes you wonder who is helping them, as they construct their bunker state in the Arab world. Loonies. I think it’s gonna go down in flames one day.

  13. seafoid
    seafoid
    September 19, 2013, 1:04 pm

    “If the world turns on us we will go North Korea” appears defiant but Israelis do like their creature comforts and standard of living and the relative stability of the shekel so any attempt to emulate Pyongyang would be met by a bond run and a massive forced currency devaluation and there wouldn’t be many ipads being sold in Netanya in the aftermath. And you could forget about Nicki Minaj playing Tel Aviv.

    So essentially the threat is not credible. Israel runs an open economy that pays for the goodies. The business elite would kill any attempt by the zealots to take the country postal.

    • crone
      crone
      September 19, 2013, 1:59 pm

      The business elite can stand against the settlers/military? Then why don’t they? Haven’t the settlers gone too far already?

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        September 19, 2013, 4:27 pm

        I think they are all doing okay with the status quo. Plenty of money for the oligarchs, funding for the settlers and everyone is delighted.
        Going Pyongyang would cripple the economy. So you’d see something happening then.

    • LanceThruster
      LanceThruster
      September 19, 2013, 2:01 pm

      Didn’t the industrialists feel they could keep the Third Reich in check too?

    • RudyM
      RudyM
      September 19, 2013, 2:24 pm

      On the other hand, they might get to see Dennis Rodman more often.

    • jon s
      jon s
      September 19, 2013, 2:35 pm

      I would be interested to read Phil’s impressions of Tel Aviv these days.

      • yrn
        yrn
        September 19, 2013, 5:26 pm

        The last thing that will interest me is to read the expression of a blocked head AntiZionist about Tel aviv.

      • jon s
        jon s
        September 20, 2013, 1:11 am

        What I would like to see would be Phil conducting an interview, or discussion , with Uri Avnery. He’s still around, still remarkably active -at age 90!- still totally committed to Israeli-Palestinian peace.

      • K Renner
        K Renner
        September 20, 2013, 6:00 am

        The height of hilarity– you accuse anti-Zionists of being blockheads, and look who you rub shoulders with by default.

  14. Mike_Konrad
    Mike_Konrad
    September 19, 2013, 1:42 pm

    I have been telling people for a while that any evacuation from Judea and Samaria is out of the realm of possibility.

    Even if the Israel government accepted it, the settlers in Judea and Samaria would not. Some of them are truly right wing loons. As the evacuation date neared, einsatzgruppen of Jewish settlers would storm out of their communities, and kill large swathes of Arabs.

    It has already happened to an extent.

    There were two cases of multiple murders of Arabs just before the Gaza pullout done by zealots hoping to dissuade the government. This is forgotten now.

    Next time, it will be hundreds.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/26/world/middleeast/26settlers.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    “To us, deterrence is more important than catching the specific terrorist. We’re fighting against a nation,” Mr. Ben Shochat said.

    In 2008, Yithzar pioneers shot up a whole Arab village in retaliation for an attack.

    An evacuation from Judea and Samaria will not go as “easily” as it did from Gaza. Gaza was not the biblical heartland. Judea and Samaria are.

    I do not like saying this: but there will be price tag massacres as a tool to tell the government … one thosand dead Arab s today … two thousand the next day, threee thousand after that until you stop the evacuation.

    The Army will not intervene … “We do not know who the villains are.”

    Right or wrong, Israel is a done deal.

    Nothing short of millions of dead will dislodge Israel from Judea and Samaria.

    I am not gloating. I am Gentile.

    This is just fact.

    Start from that premise and you will come to conclusions similar to mine.

    Israel is going nowhere short of a World War.

    • thankgodimatheist
      thankgodimatheist
      September 19, 2013, 6:58 pm

      “Judea and Samaria”
      West Bank! It’s the West Bank. Check it out on a map.

    • Koshiro
      Koshiro
      September 20, 2013, 9:15 am

      Okay Mike, I have no idea what you’ve been smoking, but on the off-chance that it’s not illegal in the Netherlands, maybe you could send some of it my way.

      Israel will remove the settlers from the West Bank, and most definitely will put down any uprising the fanatical fringe among the settlers may want to instigate – if the large majority of Israelis, be they just as racist but slightly more sane, or even merely callously apathetic, is subjected to economic pressure. “Going North Korea” is a hilarious phrase to use in this context, because if Israel truly decides to willfully become a global pariah, it will indeed “go North Korea” – economically. And as soon as Jewish Israelis, members of the pampered global upper class that most of them are – YES, even those poor souls who can’t afford a decent house anywhere near Tel Aviv – begin to feel even the slightest little pangs that will come at the very start of this development, there is indeed the serious possibility of a revolt – unless the Israeli government immediately reverses its policies and does whatever the international community demands to end its economic isolation.

      Right-wing Israelis can brag all day about how tough they are: I ain’t buying it. They currently want to keep their colonies because they think there’s no consequences, but if their freedom to travel, their cars, their access to the Internet, their cheap clothes, or many other things that the international community can easily take away from them if it musters the political will are on the line – they’re going to comply with said international community’s demands in a heartbeat. They’ll whine and cry foul and call everyone on the planet an anti-semite – but they’ll comply.

    • pjdude
      pjdude
      September 22, 2013, 8:05 pm

      so that’s how you think thugs and criminals should be dealt with roll over?

  15. Ludwig
    Ludwig
    September 19, 2013, 3:28 pm

    I think this cements the fact that it is impossible to ethnically cleanse hundreds of thousands of Jews from Judea and Samaria. New ideas are needed. If there is ever in fact a state of “Palestine” in Judea and Samaria, the Jews that currently live there must be allowed to remain. (Annie don’t censor)

    • Bumblebye
      Bumblebye
      September 19, 2013, 4:37 pm

      So, just like the furthest right extremists, Earwig believes that removal of criminal land thieves/violent thugs must not happen – not to joos, no that’s more ethnic cleansing! Yet he does not bemoan the fact that these vicious, mendacious racists have set themselves up in ethnically ‘pure’ 21st century Shtetls on stolen land, nor that they continuously harass, attack, and deprive their NON Jewish neighbors of yet more land, or of water, or of free passage to, fer instance, the children’s schools, to hospitals, etc. New ideas are needed, he sez, and Annie mustn’t censor him.
      Well, what are your ‘new ideas’, Earwig? Fulfilling the mad shtetlers wet dreams for them, and expelling all non-Jews? Or building a massive jail and transferring the shtetlers to that while their stolen goods are returned to their victims? – oops, no, you’d rather imprison the Palestinian population, like Gaza, wouldn’t you (until you could expel them)?

      • Ludwig
        Ludwig
        September 19, 2013, 6:59 pm

        I would please ask the moderators to remove comments that seek to attack me because of my name. My name is Ludwig. I won’t respond to this commenter making fun of my name other than to say that is not appropriate. If you would like a response on the substance of my posts then you should address me by my stated name with respect.

      • Philip Munger
        Philip Munger
        September 20, 2013, 1:53 am

        lighten up, Ludwig.

    • Woody Tanaka
      Woody Tanaka
      September 19, 2013, 4:41 pm

      1) It would not be an “ethnic cleansing,” anymore than it is “theft” when the cops remove carjacker out of the stolen vehicle and put him in prison.

      2) Nothing here demonstrates “impossibility” but merely the fact that the tactics that are used on these squatters may be not particularly nice. Oh, well. They brought it on themselves.

      3) If they do remain, should they not be treated exactly the way the Jews treated the Palestinans there for the last 40 years: without rights, unarmed, under martial law, without any say in the government that controls their lives, with limited movement and no right to the security in their property?? I mean, good for the goose, good for the gander, right?

      • Ludwig
        Ludwig
        September 19, 2013, 7:00 pm

        I think that there is no excuse for ethnic cleansing. To simply label a certain ethnicity as “thieves” for living in their ancestral homeland is morally wrong. There is no excuse for massive forced deportation of an entire people from their land.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        September 19, 2013, 9:00 pm

        To simply label a certain ethnicity as “thieves” for living in their ancestral homeland is morally wrong. There is no excuse for massive forced deportation of an entire people from their land.

        1. It is not their ancestral homeland , it is someone else’s.

        2. Territory does not become your homeland simply because you belong to a faith your ancestors converted to
        3. Removing another population from their land just because of your mythical and magical belief that God gave it to you is morally repugnant and primitive

        Give back what you stole if you don’t like being labelled a thief

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        September 19, 2013, 9:36 pm

        “To simply label a certain ethnicity as “thieves” for living in their ancestral homeland is morally wrong.”

        But the settlers are not living in their ancestral homelands of Brooklyn and Florida.

        “There is no excuse for massive forced deportation of an entire people from their land.”

        Exactly. There was no excuse for the Nakba. You support full Right of Return, then?

      • K Renner
        K Renner
        September 20, 2013, 3:57 am

        Oh, boy.

        I seriously don’t know if you’re actually trying to troll or you actually believe what you’re saying regarding the foreign settler implants.

        >> There is no excuse for massive forced deportation of an entire people from their land.

        Let’s assume you’re not a troll. So this applies to the Palestinians who were forcibly expelled, 100%, right?

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        September 21, 2013, 10:28 am

        “To simply label a certain ethnicity as “thieves” for living in their ancestral homeland is morally wrong.”

        They’re not being called “thieves” for living in their ancestral homeland, they are being called “thieves” because they are thieves. Regardless of whether some of their ancestors lived their, they have no right to live their because it is some other people’s land.

        “There is no excuse for massive forced deportation of an entire people from their land.”

        So then, do you support full Right of Return including inside the 1949 borders of “israel”? Or are you principles only applicable to Jews.

        Also, we are not talking about deporting the settler squatters from “their land.” It’s not their land, never was. It’s stolen land and they are squatting there illegally.

    • thankgodimatheist
      thankgodimatheist
      September 19, 2013, 7:01 pm

      “Judea and Samaria”
      Again, it’s the West Bank. No one outside Israel calls it Judea and such.

      • OlegR
        OlegR
        September 19, 2013, 8:39 pm

        Well i am inside of Israel and the name is Judea and Samaria.
        The West Bank is a fiction .

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        September 19, 2013, 10:16 pm

        Well i am inside of Israel and the name is Judea and Samaria.

        Judea and Samaria appear on no maps, so they are fiction.

      • K Renner
        K Renner
        September 20, 2013, 3:59 am

        “Judea and Samaria” are fictional outside the minds of kahanists and their ilk.

        The West Bank, like the whole of Palestine, rightfully belongs to the Palestinian people, and not “settlers” from Brooklyn or Kiev or wherever.

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        September 20, 2013, 8:36 am

        I think denying that the West Bank exists is a form of Nakba denial and denial of Palestinian existence.

        Why is OlegR not banned for this?

        What dialogue is possible with a settler/troll like him?

        Let him slither back to AtlasShrugged and EldersofZiyon blogs.

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 20, 2013, 8:48 am

        @Shingo: You probably know MRW. Well, several days ago, he sent me an ancient map of ancient Palestine from US collections:
        http://mondoweiss.net/2013/09/j-street-is-quick-to-pounce-on-nyt-piece-shrugging-off-end-of-jewish-state.html/comment-page-1#comment-594127

        I asked him to open the map but he never replied. Could you, please, be so kind and help MRW. Here is the old map:
        http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/ancient_palestine.htm

        Please, scroll down little and wait a minute to allow loading. Thanks

        (Credits: University of Texas at Austin. Historical Atlas by William Shepherd (1923-26))

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        September 21, 2013, 10:25 am

        “…the name is Judea and Samaria.”

        No, “Judea and Samaria” are racist dog whistles. Nothing more.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        September 19, 2013, 9:05 pm

        Let them call it what they like and We in turn should then refer to Israel as Palestine.

      • just
        just
        September 19, 2013, 10:56 pm

        Sounds good to me…….

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      September 19, 2013, 7:55 pm

      I think this cements the fact that it is impossible to ethnically cleanse hundreds of thousands of Jews from Judea and Samaria.

      Wrong:

      1. It would not be ethnically cleansing to remove illegal squatters. Furthermore, ethnic cleansing requires one ethnicity to be removed by another.

      2. Ethnically cleansing hundreds of thousands is no problem for Israel. They have done it before to nearly a million, if you might recall.

      If there is ever in fact a state of “Palestine” in Judea and Samaria, the Jews that currently live there must be allowed to remain.

      Judea and Samaria don’t exist, but if they Jews that currently live wish to remain, they need to apply for permission from the PAlestinian government to do so and give up their Israeli citizenship.

  16. seanmcbride
    seanmcbride
    September 19, 2013, 4:31 pm

    1. the Samson Option (and what about Israel’s collection of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons?)

    2. “loyalty to the Jewish religion” — the worldwide Jewish establishment (not just the Israeli government) has merged Judaism and Zionism into a single ethno-religious nationalist ideology. This is by far the most important point to focus on when analyzing the politics of Israel and Zionism.

    3. There is no conceivable way to remove the settlers at this point — that option was made obsolete years ago. Liberal Zionists have played the most important role in enabling the creation of these settlements, while pretending to oppose them.

    4. The Israel lobby largely controls the US Congress, the White House, the Defense Department and the mainstream media — there is little chance that the United States will ever intervene effectively to reverse these developments and trends.

    5. Palestinians face a grim future indeed. Look at the current fate of Iraqis and Syrians.

    • libra
      libra
      September 19, 2013, 6:54 pm

      Sean, you’re sounding a lot like Mike Konrad these days. To paraphrase, “these guys are awful but let’s face it they’re so damn good there’s nothing we can do about it.”

      And that’s always been the problem with you and your lists. All linear thinking, the data all points to this conclusion so that’s how it must be. Almost no ability to think laterally, to sense that the Zionist points of strength can be also be their points of weakness. This is basic strategy if only you understood the concept of the indirect. You end up by writing off the Palestinian position as hopeless whereas the very weakness of the Palestinians is paradoxically their greatest strength. Even the Israelis know the tipping point is when the Palestinians finally fold on their own state.

      Add Basil Liddell Hart to your reading list.

      • annie
        annie
        September 19, 2013, 9:01 pm

        To paraphrase, “these guys are awful but let’s face it they’re so damn good there’s nothing we can do about it.”

        yeah, sean’s back w/his merged Judaism and Zionism into a single ethno-religious nationalist ideology. like his claim the other day Committing yourself to Judaism …..means committing yourself to Israel and Zionism then throwing in the generous caveat — unless you belong to a fringe Jewish religious group like Neturei Karta.”

        sean can’t keep from reminding everyone there’s no difference between judaism and zionism anymore. how helpful/not. never mind all jews are not part of this ‘worldwide jewish establishment’ and judaism, a religion, is not the same as a religious establishment. it’s like comparing christianity w/the vatican. as if there wasn’t daylight between them. it gets so old.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride
        September 19, 2013, 10:26 pm

        Annie,

        That quote about “loyalty to the Jewish religion” — which the contemporary Jewish religious establishment (including Reform Judaism) has framed as Zionism — comes directly from Yossi Gurvitz, in the article which heads this thread — I was quoting Gurvitz.

        You still have provided no counterarguments to the undeniably truthful assertion that the contemporary Jewish religious establishment (NOT all religious Jews) has merged Judaism with Zionism — and this is the heart of the problem in trying to mount an effective push against Israeli policies — a critical mass of Jews, in combination with many Christian Zionists, believe that expansionist and racist Israeli policies are justified and sanctified by religion — by God Himself.

        Conventional leftists simply don’t get it — religion and non-rational or irrational beliefs are a powerful driver in human affairs — life is not all about self-interested economic imperialism or colonialism. Until these religious beliefs are confronted directly and deflated, the Eretz Yisrael juggernaut will continue full steam ahead.

      • annie
        annie
        September 20, 2013, 11:26 am

        That quote about “loyalty to the Jewish religion” — …… — comes directly from Yossi Gurvitz

        i know that sean. he said this:

        We don’t have a concept of loyalty to the republic. We have a concept of loyalty to the country, loyalty to the homeland, loyalty to the Jewish religion, but we don’t have a sense of loyalty to the republic.

        anytime anyone mentions judaism you can find a way to frame it to insert your (“which the contemporary Jewish religious establishment (including Reform Judaism) has framed as Zionism”) overriding ‘merging’ w/zionism point. this is just one more example.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride
        September 20, 2013, 11:47 am

        Annie,

        anytime anyone mentions judaism you can find a way to frame it insert your (“which the contemporary Jewish religious establishment (including Reform Judaism) has framed as Zionism”) overriding ‘merging’ w/zionism point. this is just one more example.

        Exactly right. After having studied this issue (the intellectual history of Zionism) in depth for quite some time, I’ve come to the conclusion that the fusion of Judaism with Zionism by the worldwide Jewish establishment over the last century is the most significant issue to address if one is going to make any headway in pushing back against Israeli policies and the propaganda system of the Israel lobby.

        Feel free to disagree with me — but your comments would be more interesting and enlightening if they were more substantive and based on an in-depth knowledge of the relevant literature.

        You seem to be reacting emotionally to any criticism of Judaism without addressing the main point: the leading institutions of contemporary Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaism are using religion to buttress Zionism. They don’t speak for all Jews, but they speak for the Jewish establishment and have succeeded in indoctrinating many young Jews into their ethno-religious nationalist belief system.

        Judaism is going to be much more damaged by Zionism than Christianity — most leading Christian denominations and organizations have taken care to keep Christian theology fully segregated from Zionism. Southern Christian fundamentalists like John Hagee and Pat Robertson, on the other hand, have swallowed Zionism hook, line and sinker and fully integrated it with their particular Christian doctrines — just as leading Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jews have integrated Zionism with Judaism.

        Mondoweiss itself has discussed this issue (the entanglement of Judaism with Zionism) in urgent tones on numerous occasions — check the archives. I continue to be mystified by why this subject causes you so much consternation.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride
        September 19, 2013, 10:12 pm

        libra,

        And that’s always been the problem with you and your lists. All linear thinking, the data all points to this conclusion so that’s how it must be.

        I’m a big fan of Edward de Bono’s lateral thinking and intuitive approaches to understanding the world in general.

        Please describe some realistic scenarios in which you think Israel will be forced to back off from its forward drive to build Greater Israel — and especially taking into account that opposition to that program on the American mainstream left has proven to be a fraud, a deception and a con game.

        I don’t see any. Do you really think that Obama and Kerry will dare to confront Netanyahu? Obama would like to, but he knows he will be attacked by powerful forces from within his own party if he does. Kerry, with his emotional invocations of the Holocaust to try to rev up aggression against Syria, gives every impression of being an emotional and hardcore Zionist.

        What the Israelis have in store for Palestinians is probably much worse than what has already transpired.

      • annie
        annie
        September 20, 2013, 11:33 am

        Do you really think that Obama and Kerry will dare to confront Netanyahu?

        have you read phil’s latest blinking on syria? http://mondoweiss.net/2013/09/obamas-greatest-achievement-blinking-on-syria.html

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride
        September 20, 2013, 11:58 am

        Annie,

        have you read phil’s latest blinking on syria?

        Yes — it’s one of Phil’s best essays ever. A key paragraph:

        The biggest loser in this shift is Israel and its ideological soulmates in the United States, the Israel lobby and the neoconservatives. In falling on his own sword– in allowing himself to be portrayed as “weak”– Obama took down the neoconservatives and Israel lobby with him. He recruited John McCain, Lindsey Graham, and AIPAC as the sponsors of an attack on Syria; and promptly buried them in a tsunami of public opinion.

        How we get from here to dislodging the settlements, I don’t know — maybe it will happen, but it seems more likely to me that it won’t. Israel and the Israel lobby will quickly marshal their forces to push back hard against efforts in that direction.

        Let’s see how it plays out.

        I would still like to see the original two-state proposal implemented — but I have gradually lost hope for that outcome over the last decade. It turns out that there was never any meaningful will to pursue that vision on the American left — especially among “liberal” Democratic Party leaders.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride
        September 19, 2013, 10:40 pm

        libra,

        Add Basil Liddell Hart to your reading list.

        Wikipedia’s entry on Hart here:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._H._Liddell_Hart

        discusses Hart’s indirect approach to warfare. Thanks for the pointer.

        I would argue that Israelis are masters of both the direct AND indirect approach to warfare, which is why they have been so successful in rolling over the opposition now for decades.

        I posted a list of the authors I’ve read on Israeli, Zionist and Jewish issues and controversies here:

        https://friendfeed.com/mondoweiss-on-friendfeed/89ab6711/authors-on-jewish-and-israeli-issues

        I know the subject fairly well.

        I was fairly optimistic for a time that the Israeli and American center-left would be able to engineer a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict — that was before it dawned on me that the entire Mideast peace process has been a sham, a stratagem, all along, and was conceived as such from the very beginning — designed to buy time while Israel continued to strengthen its grip on the occupied territories. Many of us were taken in — and now it is far too late to remove the settlements that have been built over the last two decades. Game, set, match.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride
        September 20, 2013, 7:16 am

        libra,

        And that’s always been the problem with you and your lists. All linear thinking….

        Since we last chatted about lists and list-processing technologies, I guess you still haven’t taken the trouble to look into Big Data, Hadoop, Linked Data, machine learning, metadata, microformats, Semantic Web ontologies, text mining, unstructured data, etc.? Or to study the finer details of the Greenwald/Snowden revelations on NSA analytical methods? Have you noticed the centrality of the role of Israel in helping to develop these methods, at Unit 8200, Narus, Verint and other cutting-edge organizations?

        List processing at this level is as multidimensional, lateral and intuitive (including counterintuitive) as it gets — pure wizardry and deep magic.

        Old school leftists who are trying to take on Israel and the Israel lobby with high-minded civil rights sentiments and little else are being completely outplayed in many ways that they do not begin to grasp. They are more about “self-expression” than effective political action in the real world.

        Regarding Mike Konrad: I looked up a few of his articles on American Thinker — he appears to be a crypto-Kahanist, or even an outright Kahanist in some ways. I strongly disagree with his (and Kahane’s) views, but I am beginning to think they may prevail historically — with the full backing of the “liberal” Democratic Party establishment, which has consistently been saying one thing on Israeli politics and doing the opposite for decades now.

        Are you still expecting the American government to put the brakes on Israeli settlements and to produce a fair and reasonable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Do you think most American politicians pay more attention to Mondoweiss than to generous billionaires and hectomillionaires who are fired up about Israel, often with a literally religious passion?

  17. LanceThruster
    LanceThruster
    September 19, 2013, 5:26 pm

    General “Buck” Turgidson: General Ripper called Strategic Air Command headquarters shortly after he issued the go code. I have a portion of the transcript of that conversation if you’d like me to to read it.

    President Merkin Muffley: Read it!

    General “Buck” Turgidson: Ahem… The Duty Officer asked General Ripper to confirm the fact that he *had* issued the go code, and he said, uh, “Yes gentlemen, they are on their way in, and no one can bring them back. For the sake of our country, and our way of life, I suggest you get the rest of SAC in after them. Otherwise, we will be totally destroyed by Red retaliation. Uh, my boys will give you the best kind of start, 1400 megatons worth, and you sure as hell won’t stop them now, uhuh. Uh, so let’s get going, there’s no other choice. God willing, we will prevail, in peace and freedom from fear, and in true health, through the purity and essence of our natural… fluids. God bless you all” and he hung up.

    [beat]

    General “Buck” Turgidson: Uh, we’re, still trying to figure out the meaning of that last phrase, sir.

    President Merkin Muffley: There’s nothing to figure out, General Turgidson. This man is obviously a psychotic.

    General “Buck” Turgidson: We-he-ell, uh, I’d like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in.

    President Merkin Muffley: General Turgidson! When you instituted the human reliability tests, you *assured* me there was *no* possibility of such a thing *ever* occurring!

    General “Buck” Turgidson: Well, I, uh, don’t think it’s quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up, sir.

    • DICKERSON3870
      DICKERSON3870
      September 19, 2013, 6:40 pm

      ANOTHER MEMORABLE SCENE FROM ‘DR. STRANGELOVE’ (1963)

      • General Jack D. Ripper: Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk… ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children’s ice cream.
      • Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: [very nervous] Lord, Jack.
      • General Jack D. Ripper: You know when fluoridation first began?
      • Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: I… no, no. I don’t, Jack.
      • General Jack D. Ripper: Nineteen hundred and forty-six. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It’s incredibly obvious, isn’t it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That’s the way your hard-core Commie works.
      • Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Uh, Jack, Jack, listen… tell me, tell me, Jack. When did you first… become… well, develop this theory?
      • General Jack D. Ripper: [somewhat embarassed] Well, I, uh… I… I… first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love.
      • Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Hmm.
      • General Jack D. Ripper: Yes, a uh, a profound sense of fatigue… a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I… I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence.
      • Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Hmm.
      • General Jack D. Ripper: I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women uh… women sense my power and they seek the life essence. I, uh… I do not avoid women, Mandrake.
      • Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: No.
      • General Jack D. Ripper: But I… I do deny them my essence.

      SOURCE – http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057012/quotes

  18. southernobserver
    southernobserver
    September 19, 2013, 5:52 pm

    What “will go North Korea’?

    Israel is already a rogue nation. It has repeatedly threatened annihilation at the least pretext, and does not obey its own laws or international agreements if they don’t happen to suit its plans.

  19. DICKERSON3870
    DICKERSON3870
    September 19, 2013, 6:22 pm

    RE: If we use the Algerian example, then we have a serious
    problem here…
    ~ Gurvitz

    FROM WIKIPEDIA [Organisation de l’armée secrète]:

    [EXCERPTS] The Organisation de l’armée secrète (OAS — or Organisation armée secrète, lit. “Organisation of the Secret Army” or “Secret Armed Organisation”) was a short-lived, French dissident paramilitary organisation during the Algerian War (1954–62). The OAS used armed struggle in an attempt to prevent Algeria’s independence from French colonial rule. Its motto was L’Algérie est française et le restera (“Algeria is French and will remain so”).
    The OAS was formed out of existing networks, calling themselves “counter-terrorists”, “self-defence groups”, or “resistance”, which had carried out attacks on the FLN and their perceived supporters since early in the war. It was officially formed in Francoist Spain, in Madrid in January 1961, as a response by some French politicians and French military officers to the 8 January 1961 referendum on self-determination concerning Algeria, which had been organized by General de Gaulle.
    After the March 1962 Evian agreements, which granted independence to Algeria and marked the beginning of the exodus of the pieds-noirs, the OAS tried by a campaign of assassinations and bombings to stop the on-going political process. This campaign culminated in Jean-Marie Bastien-Thiry’s 1962 assassination attempt against president Charles de Gaulle in the Paris suburb of Le Petit-Clamart. Another prominent target was the philosopher and public intellectual Jean-Paul Sartre, who supported the FLN. . .
    . . . By acts of sabotage and assassination in both metropolitan France and French Algerian territories, the OAS attempted to prevent Algerian independence. The first victim was Pierre Popie, attorney and president of the People’s Republican Movement (Mouvement Républicain Populaire, MRP), who stated on TV, “French Algeria is dead” (L’Algérie française est morte). Roger Gavoury, head of the French police in Algiers, was assassinated at the direction of Roger Degueldre, leader of the OAS Delta Commando, with the actual killing done by Claude Piegts and Albert Dovecar on 31 May 1961 (Piegts and Dovecar were executed by a firing-squad on 7 June 1962. Degueldre on 6 July). The OAS became notorious for stroungas, attacks using plastic explosives (stroungas comes from the Italian stroncare, to rip down; many pied-noirs were of southern Italian descent which influenced local French).
    In October 1961 Pierre Lagaillarde, who had escaped to Francoist Spain following the 1960 barricades week, was arrested in Madrid, along with the Italian activist Guido Giannettini.[4] Franco then exiled him to the Canary Islands.
    The Delta commandos engaged in indiscriminate killing sprees, on 17 March 1962; against cleaning-ladies on 5 May; on 15 March 1962 against six inspectors of the National Education Ministry, who directed the “Educative Social Centres” (Centres sociaux éducatifs), including Mouloud Feraoun, an Algerian writer, etc.[5]
    The OAS attempted several times to assassinate French president Charles de Gaulle. . .

    SOURCE – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_de_l%27arm%C3%A9e_secr%C3%A8te

    • DICKERSON3870
      DICKERSON3870
      September 19, 2013, 6:27 pm

      P.S. ALSO RE: If we use the Algerian example, then we have a serious problem here… ~ Gurvitz

      SEE: “Albert Camus and the Liberal Dilemma”, by Ron Jacobs, CounterPunch.org, 5/17/13

      [EXCERPTS] . . . It has always been a curiosity, then, why Camus had such a difficult time understanding the desire of the Algerians to create a meaning to their lives that required overthrowing the French colonialists. His understanding that human freedom was perhaps the greatest quality humanity possessed seemed to stop short of recognizing the denial of that freedom under colonialism. This shortsightedness led Camus to justify situations in a manner that remind this reviewer of Rube Goldberg’s inventions, only without the result desired. In other words, explanations full of loops and turns but without even the conclusive ending Goldberg’s inventions achieved. . .
      . . . Unbeknownst at the time of their writing, Camus’ writings about the French colonization of Algeria Camus are also chronicling its end. His personal laments regarding that demise represent the thinking of those who either cannot or will not acknowledge that the brutality and theft that all too often defines settler colonialism does not appear able to end without violence and tragedy.
      Parallels to the situation of Algeria abound in modern history. One could easily argue that one of today’s still existing examples of this dynamic is found in Palestine. The Palestinians are colonized in their own lands and their struggle to liberate those lands is often violent, as is the repression of that struggle. Most of the solutions presented are those created in Washington and Tel Aviv
      , much like many of the solutions to Algeria’s situation were created in Paris. The idea that Palestinians deserve the right to determine the nature of their struggle is still not a popular one in imperial capitals. Neither was the idea that the Algerians (or the Vietnamese, to name another people struggling for their liberation) deserved that right in the time of their struggle.

      ENTIRE COMMENTARY – http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/05/17/albert-camus-and-the-liberal-dilemma/

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      September 19, 2013, 10:12 pm

      I remember those guys.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      September 20, 2013, 12:12 am

      My reply ended up in the wrong place.

      By “I remember those guys” I meant I remember the OAS. I read about them in the newspapers.
      Of course, I remember De Gaulle, Camus, and Sartre as well.

      And now it looks as though this one is the wrong place as well.

      • DICKERSON3870
        DICKERSON3870
        September 22, 2013, 11:54 pm

        RE: “And now it looks as though this one is the wrong place as well.” RoHo

        MY REPLY: That’s because I have the odd habit of making my postscripts as replies to my original comment so that they will not get separated. Consequently, other peoples replies to my original comment often ends up at the bottom of my postscripts.
        Ain’t life hell*?
        * As Good as it Gets; OCD handwashing, locks, and lights [VIDEO, 01:05] – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y8EyIY-_I0

  20. OlegR
    OlegR
    September 19, 2013, 7:18 pm

    Oh please Philip try and interview someone a bit less radical then Gurvitz
    next time.
    The guys that calls all of the Jewish rabbinical tradition as “that’s the garbage that we have that’s what it always was”
    Is not exactly a credible source for anything.

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      September 19, 2013, 9:11 pm

      Oh please Philip try and interview someone a bit less radical then Gurvitz

      Yes Phil, please stick to interviewing more mainstream types like Bennet or Lieberman

  21. OlegR
    OlegR
    September 19, 2013, 7:30 pm

    And btw the Left especially the radical left have been crying
    about a coup from the settlers and the right for decades now
    .It’s like their favorite masochist
    fantasy about the fascists that they eventually will have to fight…

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      September 19, 2013, 9:13 pm

      And btw the Left especially the radical left have been crying
      about a coup from the settlers and the right for decades now

      Those who believe the earth is it flat have been saying it for centuries.

    • kalithea
      kalithea
      September 20, 2013, 1:53 am

      There is no radical Left in Israel. There is no Left except the Arab Left.

      In Israel every Zionist from any party is radical; Zionism is radical. The whole concept of Zionism is fruitcake material.

  22. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    September 19, 2013, 9:15 pm

    “with the power of real nukes” Both Carter and Finkelstein have said not out of the question that Israel would use their nukes.

  23. RoHa
    RoHa
    September 19, 2013, 11:59 pm

    “Israeli police did not do anything about the attack because it was on the Sabbath.”

    This is, in a tragic way, hilarious. The country has become a parody.

    “Baron Munchausen: Gentlemen! Don’t you think it would be a good idea to silence those enemy cannons?

    Gunner: No, sir.

    Baron Munchausen: No?

    Gunner: It’s Wednesday. ”

  24. kalithea
    kalithea
    September 20, 2013, 2:20 am

    What a novelty! Liberal Zionists putting their hands to the head in despair!

    Okay, let’s get this straight once and for all: ALL Zionists are guilty of this outcome. These crackpots with nukes on the brain didn’t get to this point without their more “moderate” Zionist brethren LYING through their teeth all this time to cover for Zionism’s evils or selling everyone false hope with “peace”-process snake-oil and 2-state weapons of mass deception.

    So everyone please be honest and start from this basis: All Zionists are guilty of the present situation and however worse it ends up.

    Here’s my opinion: If Zionists want to go NK, as in nuclear — CALL THEIR BLUFF.

    I for one am not worried, at all; I believe in a higher power that I have no doubt is also calling their bluff.

    • American
      American
      September 22, 2013, 9:02 pm

      ‘Here’s my opinion: If Zionists want to go NK, as in nuclear — CALL THEIR BLUFF.”….kalithea

      I second that.

  25. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    September 20, 2013, 8:22 am

    The Palestinian girl being beat up by illegal Israeli settlers reminds me of Christian Peace Maker Team Art Gish telling story after story of these sort of human rights abuses decade after decade.

    Phil have you ever thought about getting one of those directional microphones that block out that background noise? Don’t think they are too expensive

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