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Evangelicals who dissent from Christian Zionism wear ‘stain of indelible infamy,’ Israel says

Israel/Palestine
on 93 Comments
Christ at the Checkpoint logo

Christ at the Checkpoint logo

We all know how important Christian Zionists are to maintaining Israel’s support on the Republican side in the U.S. Many Christian Zionists came to the Israel lobby AIPAC’s conference last week. Well it turns out there’s diversity in the evangelical community (as in so many other religious communities), and Israel is displeased by that.

This Tuesday to Thursday, evangelical Christians are having a conference in Bethlehem called Christ at the Checkpoint. It’s their third such conference, talking about how Christ would resolve the conflict.

“Each morning of the conference… will offer an optional visit to the Bethlehem checkpoint.”

The evangelical Christians’ “manifesto” for the conference also makes strong political points. Read to the end and you’ll notice the rejection of Islamophobia:

Any exclusive claim to land of the Bible in the name of God is not in line with the teaching of Scripture.

All forms of violence must be refuted unequivocally.

There are real injustices taking place in the Palestinian territories and the suffering of the Palestinian people can no longer be ignored. Any solution must respect the equity and rights of Israel and Palestinian communities.

For Palestinian Christians, the occupation is the core issue of the conflict.

Any challenge of the injustices taking place in the Holy Land must be done in Christian love. Criticism of Israel and the occupation cannot be confused with anti-Semitism and the delegitimization of the State of Israel….

Christians must understand the global context for the rise of extremist Islam. We challenge stereotyping of all faith forms that betray God’s commandment to love our neighbors and enemies.

Pamela Olson explains the religious significance of the conference back home:

The president of Oral Roberts University here in Tulsa will be speaking at the Christ at the Checkpoint conference in Bethlehem this month!

Why is that so exciting? Well, Oklahoma is the buckle of the Bible Belt, and Oral Roberts University is perhaps the little diamond in the center of the buckle. Full-on conservative Christian heartland stuff. I would never in a million years have expected their president to attend such a conference.

Now guess who’s not happy about evangelical Christians coming to Palestine? The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA).

Israel Today reports on the Christ at the Checkpoint conference and highlights the political ramifications, undermining Christian Zionism.

In a personal correspondence with Israel Today, an MFA official said that “unfortunately, we well know about the [Christ at the Checkpoint] conference,” explaining that for the Israeli government, the event “is particularly problematic, because it is designed for the evangelical Christian leadership – an extremely important audience to us.”

Israel Today published a statement from the MFA with very strong language indeed.

“The attempt to use religious motifs in order to mobilize political propaganda and agitate the feelings of the faithful through the manipulation of religion and politics is an unacceptable and shameful act. Using religion for the purpose of incitement in the service of political interests stains the person who does it with a stain of indelible infamy.”

Who the shoe fits… There follows some smearing, from the Israeli government:

Furthermore, the government has indicated that it considers certain people involved in CatC to have a reputation for being involved in malicious acts against the state. For example, it was recently revealed that some of the leading figures at CatC have very close ties to the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement that aims to delegitimize and ultimately to undermine entirely the Jewish state.

Here’s some more pushback from the Times of Israel. I find this frightening, the stuff of religious war, in which a religious writer disputes the evangelicals’ manifesto.

The benefits of the Abrahamic Covenant as multi-faceted as they are promised to both the Jewish people and the nations through Abraham, yet the physical land is ONLY promised to the Jewish people, ethnic descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

If you want to follow the conference, twitter hashtag is: #CATC2014. I am told it heated up yesterday and should be interesting this week.

P.S. This piece originally stated that the last quote came from a Jewish writer. Commenter Hophmi said he isn’t. Here it says he was born Jewish and is now a follower of Yeshua.

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About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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93 Responses

  1. ritzl
    ritzl
    March 10, 2014, 11:08 am

    Wow. Just wow. Insanity AND 300+ nukes.

    Pam was right the other day about Oral Roberts Univ. being the [a] diamond in the buckle of the bible belt. Piss those people off (i.e. start and propel the bottom-up questioning process) and no amount of cynical, top-down zio-manipulation of the CUFI true believers will be able to unflip that switch.

    Betrayal, smouldering betrayal.

    Hey Shingo, I think this addresses your objections to Shmuel’s point the other day. They/GoI would have no qualms about saying or doing anything to block even the most modest resolution of this conflict. Any and all consequences be damned.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2014/03/stubborn-refusing-recognize.html/comment-page-1#comment-647506

    Important and alarming stuff. Thanks Phil and Pam.

    • Krauss
      Krauss
      March 10, 2014, 2:29 pm

      Israel’s MFA ministry understand that if they lose the evangelicals, their base of support in the GOP is finished. The younger, Ron Paul/Rand Paul libertarian types aren’t in love with Israel and understand that Israel/Zionism is at the center of the neoconservative agenda, which claimed so many lives of white working class men, who make up the bulk of the military and the GOP and many of those younger GOP activists know them, they are lost brothers and cousins.

      If Israel loses the evangelicals, well, the GOP becomes fractured as well.
      They are rapidly losing young progressives, too.

      And what then? Europe? Turn to China – which is funding and arming Iran, washing their oil money? India, the noninterventionist?

      Primal fear.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        March 11, 2014, 3:37 pm

        “Israel’s MFA ministry understand that if they lose the evangelicals, their base of support in the GOP is finished.”

        I don’t think that Israel is worried about losing the Evangelicals.

        ” The younger, Ron Paul/Rand Paul libertarian types aren’t in love with Israel and understand that Israel/Zionism is at the center of the neoconservative agenda, which claimed so many lives of white working class men, who make up the bulk of the military and the GOP and many of those younger GOP activists know them, they are lost brothers and cousins.”

        The polling data on support for Israel within the GOP belies your assertions.

        “Primal fear.”

        Only in your head.

      • Ellen
        Ellen
        March 12, 2014, 11:07 pm

        “I don’t think that Israel is worried about losing the Evangelicals.” Then why so much Zionist effort courting Evangelicals?

      • ritzl
        ritzl
        March 11, 2014, 7:02 pm

        Agree mostly, except that they don’t seem to be afraid. That’s the insanity part, to me.

        For a tiny little country of 7M, they don’t seem to be at all concerned about denigrating the religious beliefs of their largest block of supporters. It’s just not natural or understandably-motivated behavior, and that puts me on edge.

  2. American
    American
    March 10, 2014, 11:09 am

    ”Here’s some more pushback from the Times of Israel. I find this frightening, the stuff of religious war, in which a religious Jewish writer disputes the evangelicals’ manifesto.
    The benefits of the Abrahamic Covenant as multi-faceted as they are promised to both the Jewish people and the nations through Abraham, yet the physical land is ONLY promised to the Jewish people, ethnic descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”>>>>>

    I said a long time ago religion should be left out of the I/P conflict and it should be treated as what it is–a US political and world international law issue.
    But I guess I am not surprised that religion and Christian religious leaders have finally gotten into it –and they got into it because there was no action in the US political leadership and world government heads to take any real action on Israel.
    So if this is the only way or at least one of the ways to clamp down on Zionist Israel, let it roar…more power to them.

  3. eljay
    eljay
    March 10, 2014, 11:14 am

    >> The attempt to use religious motifs in order to mobilize political propaganda and agitate the feelings of the faithful through the manipulation of religion and politics is an unacceptable and shameful act.

    Yes, you hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists, it certainly is.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      March 11, 2014, 8:42 am

      @ eljay
      Yep. Zionists have no sense of irony at all unless they can use it to dilute their enemies’ activity and/or rhetoric. Actually, that’s a general operating rule in politics, e.g., Kerry’s recent castigation of Putin’s conduct re Ukraine as a violation of sovereignty while the US unilateral attack on Iraq by Bush Jr’s administration is so far from ancient history.

  4. Karl Dubhe
    Karl Dubhe
    March 10, 2014, 11:19 am

    ” the physical land is ONLY promised to the Jewish people, ethnic descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”

    Pardon me for butting in, but isn’t the paternity of any child in some doubt? Well, at least until you do the genetic testing, and I don’t think any samples of A, I or J are still around to compare the modern sample to.

  5. American
    American
    March 10, 2014, 11:21 am

    ‘“The attempt to use religious motifs in order to mobilize political propaganda and agitate the feelings of the faithful through the manipulation of religion and politics is an unacceptable and shameful act. Using religion for the purpose of incitement in the service of political interests stains the person who does it with a stain of indelible infamy.”’

    Pot calling kettle black….as usual. Their constant claim to all of Palestine?….God gave it to his chosen, its in the bible.

    • kma
      kma
      March 10, 2014, 12:20 pm

      although, more accurately, the “pot” and kettle” are different: using religious motifs to advocate for peace and human rights is not the same as using them to advocate for ethnic cleansing and apartheid.

      the statements coming out of the “pot” are getting more astounding…!

  6. FreddyV
    FreddyV
    March 10, 2014, 11:22 am

    “The benefits of the Abrahamic Covenant as multi-faceted as they are promised to both the Jewish people and the nations through Abraham, yet the physical land is ONLY promised to the Jewish people, ethnic descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”

    With respect to every one of every faith here, according to the New Testament, this is contrary to Christian teaching. If anyone can tell me how they can apply this to a Christian Zionist support for Israel, I’d be very grateful..

    Galatians 3:

    15 To give a human example, brothers:[f] even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

    19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

    21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

    23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[g] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

  7. seafoid
    seafoid
    March 10, 2014, 11:24 am

    “Using religion for the purpose of incitement in the service of political interests stains the person who does it with a stain of indelible infamy”

    Shas guilty
    Bennett guilty
    Anyone who ever wears a kippa in the service of Israel guilty
    anyone who uses the Star of David for political purposes guilty

    Zionism is incoherent as well as everything else.

    • ritzl
      ritzl
      March 10, 2014, 11:42 am

      Amazing, innit. Probably 90% of the rationale for Israel being where it is, and 100% of the cover story for its ongoing expansion and Occupation is biblical and they burn their own argument within their own largest outsider support group.

      From the government of Israel, no less.

      “Incoherent” is a pretty mild way to put it.

      Message from the Dept. of Perpetual Optimism (DOPO): Change is going to happen sooner rather than later. :)

      PS. Sorry for being flip, but this report/attitude is about as bizarre as it can get. Hard to know how to react to it.

  8. Pamela Olson
    Pamela Olson
    March 10, 2014, 11:43 am

    “The attempt to use religious motifs in order to mobilize political propaganda and agitate the feelings of the faithful through the manipulation of religion and politics is an unacceptable and shameful act. Using religion for the purpose of incitement in the service of political interests stains the person who does it with a stain of indelible infamy.”

    I couldn’t have put it better myself.

    • David Doppler
      David Doppler
      March 10, 2014, 1:09 pm

      Amen, sister.

    • hophmi
      hophmi
      March 10, 2014, 4:51 pm

      “I couldn’t have put it better myself.”

      Then why are you silent on the matter when it comes to Islamic clerics celebrating suicide terrorism in the Palestinian Authority?

      • Pamela Olson
        Pamela Olson
        March 10, 2014, 6:21 pm

        Hophmi: “Baseless accusation featuring false equivalency”

        Pamela: *Ignores troll*

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        March 11, 2014, 3:39 pm

        “Hophmi: “Baseless accusation featuring false equivalency”

        Pamela: *Ignores troll*”

        Good job of ignoring. (You posting a response that refuses [as usual] to deal with the question is not “ignoring.”)

      • Ecru
        Ecru
        March 13, 2014, 12:49 pm

        @Hoppy

        Considering your entire MO is to say black is white or to lie repeatedly

        (e.g about the survey on perceptions of antisemitism in Europe)

        and then just run away when called on it it’s hardly your place to complain of other people ignoring you when you try a threadjack.

      • Ellen
        Ellen
        March 12, 2014, 11:09 pm

        Ah….the ole’ whataboutry……

  9. Shmuel
    Shmuel
    March 10, 2014, 11:44 am

    The benefits of the Abrahamic Covenant as multi-faceted as they are promised to both the Jewish people and the nations through Abraham, yet the physical land is ONLY promised to the Jewish people, ethnic descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    I guess that’s that then. It says so in the Bible. Same goes for the “curse of Ham” too, I suppose.

  10. Danny_123
    Danny_123
    March 10, 2014, 11:53 am

    Classical cognitive dissonance. Zionism is wrong on so many levels, that even the Zionists are beginning to see the light (albeit for the wrong reasons). Given time (and BDS), they’ll eventually come around, hopefully.

  11. The JillyBeans
    The JillyBeans
    March 10, 2014, 11:54 am

    When did the US become so backwards that a small group of Christians talks peace, non-violence and respect for our religions gets treated as criminals?

    • Ellen
      Ellen
      March 12, 2014, 11:11 pm

      Well, it has really always been that way. Part of the culture.

  12. hophmi
    hophmi
    March 10, 2014, 12:22 pm

    “Here’s some more pushback from the Times of Israel. I find this frightening, the stuff of religious war, in which a religious Jewish writer disputes the evangelicals’ manifesto.”

    He’s not Jewish. He’s Christian. And I don’t think he represents anyone but himself. Calling him a religious Jewish writer is not accurate.

    • philweiss
      philweiss
      March 10, 2014, 12:33 pm

      Thanks Hophmi. I will fix. I still find this skeery

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        March 10, 2014, 1:51 pm

        It’s skeery enough, I agree. It’s a blog post at a website that prints many different perspectives. It’s certainly not the POV of Times of Israel.

    • eljay
      eljay
      March 10, 2014, 12:42 pm

      >> He’s not Jewish.

      According to his website’s “About” page:

      I was born in Paris, France from a secular Jewish family. … As a result of losing her dad in Auschwitz at age 15, my mother had developed a complex about being Jewish. … Eventually, after doing a lot a volunteer work for an evangelical organization that takes the Gospel of Yeshua to my people ( the Jewish people) … Twenty-seven years ago, I met my Messiah. That is the most Jewish thing I have ever done in my entire life.

      He was born to a Jewish mother and considers himself part of the Jewish people. But perhaps he’s mistaken. You may want to send him a note correcting his misconception, O’ Arbiter of Who Is and Who Is Not Jewish.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        March 10, 2014, 1:49 pm

        “He was born to a Jewish mother and considers himself part of the Jewish people. But perhaps he’s mistaken. You may want to send him a note correcting his misconception, O’ Arbiter of Who Is and Who Is Not Jewish.”

        I’m sure he’s received plenty of notes to that effect. The vast majority of the Jewish community does not see Jews for Jesus as a Jewish sect. Once again, I’m not passing judgment on the technicality of whether he’s Jewish or not. I’m merely taking issue with Phil’s categorization of this guy as a religious Jew. He is not that.

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 10, 2014, 2:08 pm

        >> Once again, I’m not passing judgment on the technicality of whether he’s Jewish or not.

        That’s exactly what you’re doing. Here are your exact words from ~90 minutes ago and (at this time) only five posts up:

        He’s not Jewish. He’s Christian.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        March 10, 2014, 3:05 pm

        “Don’t most Orthodox view Jews who adopt Christianity as still Jewish? ”

        Yes. There’s no way to give it up. But I don’t think most Orthodox people would say that his practice is Jewish. I’m referring to the practice. Messianic Jews may be born as Jews, and they remain Jews, but they’re practicing as Christians.

      • doug
        doug
        March 10, 2014, 2:02 pm

        Don’t most Orthodox view Jews who adopt Christianity as still Jewish? A rabbi wrote an article in Commentary back in the late 90’s,I believe, that stated that a Jewish convert that reverted back to Christianity was still Jewish albeit a Jewish apostate. One would assume that would always apply to the Jewish born as there is no “out” that the converted Jew was a defective conversion in some way.

        From what I’ve read this is a matter of dispute amongst various Jewish sects but is the general rule with Orthodox.

    • FreddyV
      FreddyV
      March 10, 2014, 12:51 pm

      Messianic Jews are a strange subset. They believe in Christ, but also observe some, but not all of the Jewish faith.

      They love to big up their Jewish credentials as Christian Zionists put them on pedestals.

      • lysias
        lysias
        March 10, 2014, 5:35 pm

        They believe in Christ, but also observe some, but not all of the Jewish faith.

        That’s what the first Christians did as well, isn’t it?

      • FreddyV
        FreddyV
        March 11, 2014, 3:56 pm

        They did 2,000 years ago, yes. However, according to Christian teaching:

        Hebrews 8:13
        “13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”

        That hadn’t happened yet……

    • seanmcbride
      seanmcbride
      March 10, 2014, 1:30 pm

      Can’t one be both a Jew and a Christian in the same way that one can be both a Swede or a Turk and a Christian? Jewish identity is as much ethnic as religious in nature. (Similarly, one can be both an Arab and a Jew.)

      Also:

      “Israeli immigration laws will accept an application for Israeli citizenship if there is proven documentation that any grandparent—not just the maternal grandmother—was Jewish.” [Wikipedia; Who is a Jew? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F ]

      Isn’t Olivier Jack Melnick Jewish? Or would hophmi still assert that he isn’t?

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        March 10, 2014, 1:46 pm

        “Can’t one be both a Jew and a Christian in the same way that one can be both a Swede or a Turk and a Christian?”

        We can have a discussion on Jews for Jesus, which is what this guy basically is, but if the Evangelical Christian shoe fits…

        I don’t understand how you compare being two religions, i.e., belonging to two belief systems that, at least with regard to Messiah, completely contradict one another, with belonging to two nationalities, which is simply a function of birth.

        In any event, Phil said that he was a religious Jew, and I don’t think that’s really accurate, at least not for the purposes Phil is using him here.

        “Isn’t Olivier Jack Melnick Jewish?”

        I think he may be Jewish by birth, but he’s essentially writing as an Evangelical Christian. I’m not interested in having a who-is-a-Jew discussion with you. I am commenting only with regard to Phil’s labeling of Melnick as a religious Jew, which Phil agrees was inaccurate.

        If you look at where the funding comes from for these so-called Messianic groups, you’ll find it’s mostly from the Christian evangelical community. It’s a proselytizing movement.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride
        March 10, 2014, 2:07 pm

        hophmi wrote:

        I think he may be Jewish by birth, but he’s essentially writing as an Evangelical Christian. I’m not interested in having a who-is-a-Jew discussion with you. I am commenting only with regard to Phil’s labeling of Melnick as a religious Jew, which Phil agrees was inaccurate.

        If you look at where the funding comes from for these so-called Messianic groups, you’ll find it’s mostly from the Christian evangelical community. It’s a proselytizing movement.

        Those two paragraphs are reasonable.

        With regard to the bigger picture here: do you think it would be a good idea for Christian evangelicals to discard their Christian Zionist beliefs?

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride
        March 10, 2014, 2:10 pm

        hophmi,

        The Times of Israel, which provided Olivier Jack Melnick with a platform — is that a Christian outfit?

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        March 10, 2014, 4:49 pm

        “The Times of Israel, which provided Olivier Jack Melnick with a platform — is that a Christian outfit?”

        What exactly are you trying to prove? It’s not an outfit that restricts its bloggers to Jews only.

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 10, 2014, 2:14 pm

        >> I don’t understand how you compare being two religions …

        Once again, a Zio-supremacist reduces Jewish to a religion because it suits his purpose to do so. But dare to tell him that Jewish is just a religion and suddenly he’ll lecture you on how it’s not just a religion, but a tribe, a culture, an ethnicity, a collective, a nation and a civilization!

        Too funny…

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        March 10, 2014, 4:41 pm

        I don’t understand how you compare being two religions, i.e., belonging to two belief systems that, at least with regard to Messiah, completely contradict one another, with belonging to two nationalities, which is simply a function of birth.

        You may not understand it, but that was the successful legal strategy employed in an Israeli High Court of Justice case in 2008, which held that children descended from Messianic Jewish fathers and paternal Jewish grandparents can be considered Jews for the purpose of the Law of Return. The Court held that they are Jewish nationals who have not personally converted to another religion.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        March 10, 2014, 4:49 pm

        “You may not understand it, but that was the successful legal strategy employed in an Israeli High Court of Justice case in 2008, which held that children descended from Messianic Jewish fathers and paternal Jewish grandparents can be considered Jews for the purpose of the Law of Return. The Court held that they are Jewish nationals who have not personally converted to another religion.”

        Clearly, you will twist anything to make a political point. You are nothing, if not predictable.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        March 10, 2014, 6:28 pm

        Clearly, you will twist anything to make a political point. You are nothing, if not predictable.

        I’m not twisting anything. I’m just reporting the decision in a well-known Israeli Supreme Court case.

      • lysias
        lysias
        March 10, 2014, 5:42 pm

        I thought Jews’ objection to Christianity was that it asserts the divinity of Christ. Why is saying that he was the Messiah so objectionable? Did the followers of Sabbatai Zevi automatically become non-Jews when they accepted his claim to be the Messiah? I thought they were only rejected after he and they converted to Islam.

        Which raises the matter of why Jews (or at least a lot of Jews) consider Jews who convert to Islam as non-Jews, just they way they look on Jews who convert to Christianity. But what is so objectionable about Islam? It’s a monotheistic, legalistic religion that has taken over dietary laws and a lot of other stuff from Judaism. I find it hard to understand why somebody couldn’t be both a Jew and a Muslim (as many people claimed to be in the first couple of centuries after Mohammed, and as the Dönme followers of Sabbatai Zevi claimed to be, and indeed still claim to be). Is the objection that Muslims regard Jesus (Isa) as a prophet, a messenger of God, and even the Messiah (al-Masih)?

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        March 11, 2014, 10:46 am

        “I thought Jews’ objection to Christianity was that it asserts the divinity of Christ. Why is saying that he was the Messiah so objectionable? Did the followers of Sabbatai Zevi automatically become non-Jews when they accepted his claim to be the Messiah? I thought they were only rejected after he and they converted to Islam.”

        That’s what the Messianists do. They assert the Divinity of Christ. And they’re funded principally by the Evangelical community as a sort of stealthy proselytizing group.

        Sabbatei Zevi was one of many who have claimed to be the Messiah. He was certainly not universally accepted, just as those who contend that the Lubavitcher rebbe is the Messiah are not widely accepted either. In any event, Jews do believe in the concept of a Messiah, but obviously, not in the divinity of Jesus.

        “Which raises the matter of why Jews (or at least a lot of Jews) consider Jews who convert to Islam as non-Jews, just they way they look on Jews who convert to Christianity. But what is so objectionable about Islam? ”

        No Jews that I know of consider Jews who convert to other religions as non-Jewish in the technical sense. There’s nothing particularly objectionable about Islam; it is, from what I know about it, much closer to Judaism than Christianity is.

        “I find it hard to understand why somebody couldn’t be both a Jew and a Muslim”

        I don’t think anyone argued that it was impossible to engage in the practices of both religions; it’s a lot more possible than it is to be a Jew and Christian, in my view, because with Judaism and Christianity, the belief systems are just diametrically opposed, at least from my POV. The main problem I have with Jews for Jesus, or Messianist Jews, is that they are essentially practicing as Christians, adopting the main Christian belief, and their entire “ministry” is based on promoting that belief as the correct Jewish belief. I’m certainly not one to argue that there is only one normative approach in Judaism, but I think just about everybody outside of the Messianist community would draw the line at the divinity of Jesus.

      • lysias
        lysias
        March 12, 2014, 12:28 pm

        Hophmi, to regard Christ as both the Messiah and as divine is two different things. Christians believe both. Muslims only believe the first (that Isa/Jesus was al-Masih, the Messiah).

        You conflate belief that he is/was the Messiah and belief that he is/was divine, but your very willingness not to cast out Jews who are also Muslims surely shows that you too see — or at least sense — the distinction.

        But surely that means that what you find objectionable is not that anybody should think Christ is/was the Messiah, but only that they should think he is/was divine.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        March 12, 2014, 1:29 pm

        Belief that Jesus or any other human being is a member of the godhead or divine is not accepted by mainstream Judaism. And such a belief is not consonant with being Jewish, except to pollsters from Pew and racial haters like Hitler and post Expulsion Spain.

        The belief that Jesus was the messiah, does not of necessity disqualify a person from being Jewish. Certainly while he was alive such a belief did not disqualify his followers of that time from being considered Jewish, any more than Rabbi Akiva’s belief that Bar kochba was the Messiah disqualified him from being Jewish. Upon Jesus’s death, his nomination for Messiah was rescinded. This is glib, but essentially this: belief that the Messiah has come and died without fulfilling the basic requirements of messiah- rebuilding the temple as the most glaring expectation for Messianic fulfillment, this belief now enters a questionable phase. Thus to believe that the Lubavitcher Rabbi was Messiah while he was still alive was an acceptable belief. Belief that he is Messiah today, despite the fact that he is dead and buried is in a different category. (Jesus rising from the dead and ascending to heaven might be seen as a way around this change of category, but as they say: Not. This belief in a body dead Messiah is in a separate category from belief of him as Messiah when he walked the planet.)

        (To accept Shabtai Zevi as messiah was widespread while he lived and even after he had converted such a belief had a thin reed, but nonetheless a reed, to stand upon. Those who believed he was Messiah after he died, well they were “beyond the pale”.)

        And although history should not necessarily lead to changes of what beliefs regarding the messiah are acceptable to Jewish law, the rancor and murder of vast numbers of jews who refused to accept jesus as god or messiah is certainly an obstacle to the idea that belief in his messiah=hood is consonant with Judaism. Hundreds of thousands chose death rather than accepting him as Messiah because they viewed such an acceptance as antithetical to their Judaism. Those dead jews stand (or lie) in the way that the belief in his messiah-hood is an acceptable jewish belief. (Could be that they chose death over denying their faith in the oneness of God, but they did not choose death over denying the possibility of the messianic identity of jesus. But in fact those who offered them the choice of death or convert were not interested in such fine distinctions. )

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        March 12, 2014, 1:43 pm

        “Hophmi, to regard Christ as both the Messiah and as divine is two different things. Christians believe both. Muslims only believe the first (that Isa/Jesus was al-Masih, the Messiah).”

        Muslims believe that Jesus was the Messiah? I don’t think so. They regard as a revered prophet.

        “You conflate belief that he is/was the Messiah and belief that he is/was divine, but your very willingness not to cast out Jews who are also Muslims surely shows that you too see — or at least sense — the distinction.”

        I’m not quite sure what the distinction is, at least in this context. I would think that most who regard Jesus as the messiah also regard him as divine.

        “But surely that means that what you find objectionable is not that anybody should think Christ is/was the Messiah, but only that they should think he is/was divine.”

        I think, in this context, this is a distinction without a difference. In Melnick’s case, he’s encouraging people to see Jesus as a messianic figure and as a divine figure.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        March 12, 2014, 2:28 pm

        It should also be noted that another obstacle towards belief in Jesus as the Messiah being somehow consonant with Judaism is the New Testament. The specificity of the New Testament varies from book to book in its animus towards the Pharisees and the rabbis and the Jews and accepting Jesus as Messiah while keeping the New Testament’s anti Jewish or anti Pharisee sentiments in perspective seems to be a work for a juggler rather than the simple belief in “Jesus was/is the Messiah”. (The history in this case is not the actions of Christians, who can be dismissed as evil individuals or misguided lost souls, but the writers of the gospels cannot be dismissed with such calm, I would think.)

        (Let me just add that those who find the words of Lindy in Des Moines in 1941 to be without rancor, might use their pilpul talents to find all the books of the New Testament empty of rancor as well.)

      • LeaNder
        LeaNder
        March 12, 2014, 3:01 pm

        And such a belief is not consonant with being Jewish, except to pollsters from Pew and racial haters like Hitler and post Expulsion Spain.

        your disgust shows, I wonder if any accidentally baptized cares about reading any further. But to please you, no, a mamzer, in other words the bastard son of a Roman father, born by a Jewish mother out of wedlock sure cannot even have been a prophet. Does this satisfy you?

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride
        March 10, 2014, 7:30 pm

        hophmi,

        I don’t understand how you compare being two religions, i.e., belonging to two belief systems that, at least with regard to Messiah, completely contradict one another, with belonging to two nationalities, which is simply a function of birth.

        Was Albert Einstein Jewish? Sigmund Freud? Leon Trotsky? Is Woody Allen? For that matter was Jesus Christ?

        Jewishness is as much a matter of ethnicity as a religious belief, correct? Olivier Melnick is not only a self-declared and proud ethnic and cultural Jew — he is also a religious Jew — that is, a Jew whose religious beliefs intensely (one might say fanatically) revolve around “the Jewish people” and their endless wars against “the enemies of the Jews.” That is why the Times of Israel publishes him. His views bear no resemblance to the mainstream Christianity in which I was brought up.

        Check out Melnick’s email address: [email protected] (“the chosen people” definitely = “the Jews” in his thinking).

        Check out his website: Fight the New Antisemitism http://www.newantisemitism.com/

        Check 0ut this essay by Melnick: The Dangerously Changing Demographics of the New Anti-Semitism http://www.newantisemitism.com/2014/03/the-dangerously-changing-demographics.html

        And here is his Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/olivier.melnick

        Do you agree that the sooner that Christian Zionism disappears from the world the better? It’s one of the looniest and potentially most dangerous cults of all time — and certainly one of the most ignorant from the standpoint of Christian theology.

        Christian Zionists have replaced a reverence for universalist New Testament values with the worship of a militaristic Old Testament-based Israeli government (a temporal state) and “the Jewish people” (an ethnic group, one which much of the time is barely religious and which is often aggressively anti-religious). These are seriously confused people whose ranks are dominated by characters like Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, John Hagee and Jerry Boykin.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride
        March 10, 2014, 8:23 pm

        More on Olivier Melnick:

        http://www.oliviermelnick.com/Speaking/endorsements.php

        I am happy to recommend Olivier Melnick as a speaker and teacher. He has the capacity to share the Word of God from a Jewish perspective and has a real concern in sharing the gospel with his own Jewish people. What he has to say and teach will benefit both Jewish and Gentile believers.

        Over the past 15 years, it has been my joy and privilege to know Olivier. He is a gifted communicator of the truths of Scripture, especially as they relate to the Jewish people. He is an accomplished author and an authority on the new anti-Semitism who has God’s heart for Israel. Not only is Olivier an advocate on behalf of God’s Chosen People, but, more importantly, he is an ambassador of Yeshua the Messiah who longs for the salvation of both Israel and the nations.

        And:

        Chosen People Ministries http://www.chosenpeople.com/main/index.php/component/content/article/71-staff/351-olivier-and-ellen-melnick

        His desire is to help Christians understand the Jewish roots of the faith and he hopes to train many to be effective in Jewish evangelism.

        It appears that Melnick’s main mission is to propagandize Christians into accepting a subordinate role as tools of the Israeli government, Jewish nationalism and Greater Israelism. He reminds one of David Brog, who seems to be the ideological director of and real power behind the scenes at CUFI (Christians United for Israel).

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        March 11, 2014, 11:01 am

        “Jewishness is as much a matter of ethnicity as a religious belief, correct?”

        We’re not talking “Jewishness” here. Jewishness could be a bagel.

        “Olivier Melnick is not only a self-declared and proud ethnic and cultural Jew — he is also a religious Jew”

        No, he is not. I see nowhere in his bio that he even defines himself that way. Again, Sean, this debate is settled. Phil agrees with me.

        “That is why the Times of Israel publishes him.”

        The Times of Israel publishes a lot of people, left-wing, centrist, right-wing, Jews, Christians, atheists.

        Melnick is an Evangelical Christian. He may be a confused Evangelical Christian, but when you define your life’s work as “taking Yeshua’s message to the Jewish people” and your hope as being that people “would investigate [Jesus’s] word and make Him your Lord and Savior,” you ain’t practicing Judaism.

        “Do you agree that the sooner that Christian Zionism disappears from the world the better? It’s one of the looniest and potentially most dangerous cults of all time — and certainly one of the most ignorant from the standpoint of Christian theology.”

        Then you should probably work to get rid of it. I’m not a Christian Zionist. I think there have been much loonier and more dangerous movements, like the Nazis and and the Stalinists.

      • Ellen
        Ellen
        March 12, 2014, 11:26 pm

        Sadly, these seriously ignorant and confused people have elected their own as legislators in the federal government. They reflect much of the US citizenry. That is how they system works.

        The bigger question is why it is that so much of the US populace is so completely ignorant and so vulnerable? It is a dangerousness condition.

      • talknic
        talknic
        March 10, 2014, 2:59 pm

        seanmcbride “Can’t one be both a Jew and a Christian in the same way that one can be both a Swede or a Turk and a Christian?”

        No. Turkey is a country, Sweden is a country, neither Christian or Jew is a country.

        “Jewish identity is as much ethnic as religious in nature. (Similarly, one can be both an Arab and a Jew.)”

        Quite. And one could describe a Jew by birth (even an Arab Jew by birth), who is religious (any religion), as a religious Jew. It could however be a tad confusing without some qualifier such as ‘born a Jew’

      • American
        American
        March 10, 2014, 6:46 pm

        Why don’t we leave the who is a Jew question at this—> if someone says they are Jew, fine, they are Jew, if someone say they had Jewish parents but aren’t a Jew cause they don’t practice Judaism, fine ,they aren’t a Jew, if someone says they were born to Jews and practiced Judaism and then became a Catholic and want to say they are a Jewish Catholic, fine, they are a Jewish Catholic.
        People get to define themselves as far as personal identity goes.

      • philweiss
        philweiss
        March 10, 2014, 7:55 pm

        im down with that

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 10, 2014, 10:54 pm

        “People get to define themselves as far as personal identity goes.”

        But why bother? What’s the point?

      • FreddyV
        FreddyV
        March 11, 2014, 4:32 am

        My issue is when people use their religious definition as currency. Messianic Jews are virtually worshipped in Christian Zionist circles. A large part of this is due to Romans 11 where the Apostle Paul describe himself as an Israelite. Rather than understand the passage in its context of Paul talking to Italians who in the 1st century mistakenly thought that this new religion they had received was not available to Jews, but only to Gentiles.

        An understandable mistake, given the exclusivity of Judaism. They assumed the reverse would happen, rather than the walls of division between Jew and Gentile coming down.

        Christian Zionists read this in a futurist perspective and think that Jews who convert to Christianity today are something special. If Mr Weiss wants to take up a very profitable career, I’d advise conerting to Christianity and writing a few religious books.

      • puppies
        puppies
        March 11, 2014, 2:18 pm

        @American – That’s fine in la-la-land. Not in a world where this kind of definitions get you uprooted, exiled, robbed and murdered, placed on no-fly lists, etc. You are defined by some objective criteria. So the non religious are yet to acknowledge that their identification by the vaginal way is strictly racist.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride
        March 10, 2014, 7:37 pm

        talknic,

        No. Turkey is a country, Sweden is a country, neither Christian or Jew is a country.

        This is incorrect. Turks and Swedes can be defined in two ways: as citizens of Turkey or Sweden or as ethnic members of the Turkish or Swedish peoples viewed as ethnic groups. Ethnic Turks or Swedes can become Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Scientologists, etc. while still maintaining their ethnic identity.

        Olivier Melnick is as Jewish as they come — check out his past writings on his website. And he is not a Christian within a theological framework that most Christians would recognize. His religion is intensely ethnocentric and ethnic nationalist and revolves entirely around “the Jews.”

      • talknic
        talknic
        March 10, 2014, 9:23 pm

        seanmcbride ” Turks and Swedes can be defined in two ways: as citizens of Turkey or Sweden or as ethnic members of the Turkish or Swedish peoples viewed as ethnic groups. Ethnic Turks or Swedes can become Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Scientologists, etc. while still maintaining their ethnic identity”

        Quite.

        However Christian is neither ethnicity or country and;

        Unlike Swedes or Turks, non-practicing Jews only have being born of a Jewish mother in common with those who practice one of the branches of Judaism. A notion that in all probability stems from the fact that logically a baby definitely comes from the mother….fatherhood can be questionable.

        Furthermore it might only be in the mind of practicing Jews that the non-practitioner is Jewish. They might not believe themselves to be Jewish at all and therefore aren’t (self determination – ‘s wunnerfull)

        As for Olivier Melnick being as Jewish as they come, perhaps so.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        March 11, 2014, 11:01 am

        “Olivier Melnick is as Jewish as they come — check out his past writings on his website. And he is not a Christian within a theological framework that most Christians would recognize. His religion is intensely ethnocentric and ethnic nationalist and revolves entirely around “the Jews.””

        I thought Kevin McDonald brand antisemitism was banned here.

      • talknic
        talknic
        March 11, 2014, 4:34 pm

        http://mondoweiss.net/2014/03/evangelicals-christian-indelible.html/comment-page-1#comment-648201 hophmi seems to think it’s a competition to show how pathetic one can be

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride
        March 11, 2014, 6:43 pm

        talknic,

        hophmi seems to think it’s a competition to show how pathetic one can be

        Indeed — he just dragged out the grubby antisemitism smear once again (he has used it hundreds of times to squirm around evasively in “debates” here). He made no effort to address the content of Olivier Melnick’s writings, which are just as I described them: intensely ethnocentric and ethnic nationalist, and obsessed with the enemies of the Jews. Melnick is in extreme Pamela Geller territory — that is why WorldNetDaily publishes him.

        Melnick is on a mission not to convert Jews to Christianity (a religion which he knows very little about), but to convert Christians to Zionism and messianic Jewish ethnic nationalism (a subject with which he is intimately familiar). Melnick considers himself to be one of “the chosen people” — his own description — and by which he means “the Jews.” He believes that “the nations” (all non-Jewish peoples) should be subordinate to “the Jewish people” — and that all non-Jewish governments should be subordinate to the government of Israel. If you don’t go along with his racist beliefs, he will smear you as a Judeophobe and Jew-hater.

        I doubt that Melnick is going to get very far with these ideas with well-educated mainstream Christians, but let him try — it’s a free country.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        March 12, 2014, 1:46 pm

        “Indeed — he just dragged out the grubby antisemitism smear once again (he has used it hundreds of times to squirm around evasively in “debates” here). He made no effort to address the content of Olivier Melnick’s writings, which are just as I described them: intensely ethnocentric and ethnic nationalist, and obsessed with the enemies of the Jews. Melnick is in extreme Pamela Geller territory — that is why WorldNetDaily publishes him.”

        And here it is, as if on cue. McBride says Judaism is the same as ethnocentrism and ethnic nationalism, and that thus, Melnick “is as Jewish as they come” because he believes in both, and then, he complains when I call him what he is, and then tries to change the terms of conversation into one of ethnic nationalism, his undying obsession.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride
        March 13, 2014, 4:08 pm

        hophmi,

        And here it is, as if on cue. McBride says Judaism is the same as ethnocentrism and ethnic nationalism, and that thus, Melnick “is as Jewish as they come” because he believes in both, and then, he complains when I call him what he is, and then tries to change the terms of conversation into one of ethnic nationalism, his undying obsession.

        Oliver Melnick **HIMSELF** conflates Judaism (and his bizarre version of Christianity) with Zionism, as does much of the Jewish religious establishment. Melnick is a Jewish ethnic nationalist who considers himself to be a member of “the chosen people” (the Jewish people) and who defines critics of Israel as antisemites, Judeophobes and Jew-haters.

        It’s obvious that you haven’t taken the trouble to read Melnick’s writings, which are readily available on the Web. You should do so before trying to pursue a discussion about them.

  13. kma
    kma
    March 10, 2014, 12:30 pm

    “…the physical land is ONLY promised to the Jewish people…”

    sadly for god, the Jewish people are starting to think they can share some it it with its current inhabitants. this is the same god that made such a terrible error in the first release of humankind that he drowned nearly all of them to start over. everyone makes mistakes.
    “thou shalt commit ethnic cleansing” is not exactly what his little covenant said. but if god gave the land to the Jews in return for their being good citizens, aren’t they allowed to share it?

    • Walid
      Walid
      March 10, 2014, 1:43 pm

      ““thou shalt commit ethnic cleansing” is not exactly what his little covenant said. ”

      kma, change orders were issued after that, here’s one of several:

      God commanded Saul and the Israelites, “This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”
      (1 Samuel 15:2-3)

      and another:

      God commanded, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you.”
      (Deuteronomy 20:16-18)

      • just
        just
        March 10, 2014, 9:32 pm

        Sheesh. Such a loving & benevolent text from which to guide one’s life.

      • kma
        kma
        March 10, 2014, 11:24 pm

        but, yes, Walid, I do understand what you are quoting, there’s a heck of a lot of that contradictory stuff, and so I don’t mean to criticize you.
        you’re right! god commands ethnic cleansing too…. but normal people know it’s crap, right?

      • puppies
        puppies
        March 11, 2014, 2:07 pm

        @kma – But religious people are not “normal people”; these instructions are in the same manual, they are labeled the word of their god. The law of blessed genocide is not off the books. Same as the Espionage Act…

      • Walid
        Walid
        March 12, 2014, 1:52 pm

        “but normal people know it’s crap, right?”

        Of course, kma, I posted those quotes from the Bible for sport. There are also some very colourful ones in the Christian side of the Bible as well as in the Muslim religion.

  14. pabelmont
    pabelmont
    March 10, 2014, 1:28 pm

    The ebb and flow of argumentation about Zionism is, indeed, something to stand in awe of. How can often-ethical people support any aspect of Zionism — especially the settlement program and refusal to end the occupation? Well, many arguments are like that, as was the long argument of the 20th century about Communism (and Stalinism and Trotskyism). I’ve written a quasi book-review of David Caute’s “Isaac and Isaiah” which relates the fierce arguments between English (formerly Latvian and Polish) Jewish philosophers/historians on the subject of Communism.

    Human nature when arguing about fiercely loved (or detested) “isms” doesn’t seem to change much.

  15. Les
    Les
    March 10, 2014, 2:46 pm

    What Christian zionists share with Jewish zionists is racism toward Arabs and Persians. Guess who our media depicts as dark and swarthy?

    • lysias
      lysias
      March 10, 2014, 5:49 pm

      Racism towards Persians puzzles me. They speak an Indo-European language. They are quite fair-skinned. And the Old Testament is full of praise of Cyrus and the Persians, who freed the Jews from their Babylonian capitivity and were quite tolerant of other religions, including the religion of the Jews of that time.

      • Les
        Les
        March 10, 2014, 7:19 pm

        Speaking of fair skinned, American Jewish zionists in Israel referred to its Jewish natives as Schwarze Jews.

  16. Rusty Pipes
    Rusty Pipes
    March 10, 2014, 3:13 pm

    Other than the fact that Mubarak Awad’s brother works at the Bible College, what is this supposed to mean:

    Furthermore, the government has indicated that it considers certain people involved in CatC to have a reputation for being involved in malicious acts against the state. For example, it was recently revealed that some of the leading figures at CatC have very close ties to the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement that aims to delegitimize and ultimately to undermine entirely the Jewish state.

    The BDS connections throughout Palestinian civil society are not exactly breaking news — especially since the BDS call was signed in 2005.

  17. bilal a
    bilal a
    March 10, 2014, 7:12 pm

    speaking of evangelicals, at summit on us -israel special relationship on cspan

    Author Warns of Racist Movement in Israel Looking for ‘Right to Kill Non-Jewish Children’
    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/author-warns-of-racist-movement-in-israel-looking-for-right-to-kill-non-jewish-children/

    or Admitted [Israeli ]Spy Shows up for Oscars—and Wins
    http://www.irmep.org/

    tells you more about the Film Academy’s views on loyalty to the Jewish state.

    related at algemeiner

    http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/03/10/u-s-national-press-club-hosts-national-summit-to-reassess-the-u-s-%E2%80%93-israel-special-relationship-now-re-broadcast-on-c-span/

  18. W.Jones
    W.Jones
    March 10, 2014, 8:24 pm

    Phil,

    Earlier you wrote:

    It’s not like my wife or my friends are very Christian. If they were, we wouldn’t be friends. They respect Christ as a teacher, but mock Christian religious claims

    Do you think that you could please write more about why you feel this way, my friend?

    For me, the major claim that a preacher of equality was rejected and killed, but overcame death to bring millions of people to love God and eachother is inspiring.

    The topic of your very newsworthy article is a big part of this theme. In the Bible, Jewish Christians and gentiles eat, share, help, and touch eachother, even though for centuries they had been kept separate. A central religious claim of Christianity is that all ethnicities can be part of a single community, whose members are like organs in a body. Peter even calls Christians a nation. The breaking down of barriers is not only spiritual, but physical one where people can live together.

    In your essay, you find it frightening that a Messianic writer says that the

    Abrahamic Covenant’s benefits are promised to both the Jewish people and the nations, yet the physical land is ONLY promised to the Jewish people, ethnic descendants of Abraham

    In disagreeing with this statement, isn’t your belief similar to the orthodox Christian one that barriers between Jews and gentiles have been broken down and that they have an opportunity to live together as one nation and community?

    Otherwise, if one accepts what the Messianic writer says, then the land would go to very many Palestinians, who are ethnically descended from Jews, while its owners could not include converts to Judaism as it currently does under the law of return. But it is a major idea of traditional Christianity that it is not physical descent that matters, but faith.(Ga.5:6)

    Thank you for your hard work, Phil.

    • W.Jones
      W.Jones
      March 12, 2014, 7:46 pm

      I can imagine you are really busy, Phil.

      Perhaps you did not see my message?

      Thanks for your work.

      • annie
        annie
        March 12, 2014, 9:35 pm

        phil is away for a few days, i heard.

  19. DICKERSON3870
    DICKERSON3870
    March 10, 2014, 8:45 pm

    RE: “The attempt to use religious motifs in order to mobilize political propaganda and agitate the feelings of the faithful through the manipulation of religion and politics is an unacceptable and shameful act. Using religion for the purpose of incitement in the service of political interests stains the person who does it with a stain of indelible infamy.” ~ Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA)

    MY COMMENT: I finally agree with the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs on something! Zionism has been a debaser* of Christianity**. Indeed, Zionism’s use of religious motifs in order to mobilize political propaganda and agitate the feelings of the Christian faithful through the manipulation of religion and politics is an unacceptable and shameful act.

    * Pixies – Debaser (Official Video) HD [02:57] – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u4pX7WifgE

    ** SEE: “Grace Halsell: De-bunker of Christian Zionist Doctrine”, by Stuart Littlewood, Palestine Chronicle, 8/11/12

    [EXCERPT] Not long ago I quoted American journalist Grace Halsell in an article about the damaging influence of the Scofield Bible, not realising how sorely she was made to suffer for setting out the truth.
    That article, ‘The Zionist cuckoos in Christianity’s nest’, showed how Cyrus Scofield corrupted the Biblical message and produced a propaganda classic that has been working its evil for 100 years.

    Scofield, a convicted criminal and described by one American newspaper as “a shyster”, was commissioned to re-write the King James Bible by inserting Zionist-friendly notes. The idea was to change the Christian view of Zionism by creating and promoting a pro-Zionist sub-culture within Christianity. The Oxford University Press appointed Scofield as editor, and the Scofield Reference Bible was born.
    It introduced a new worship icon, the modern State of Israel, which did not exist until 1948 but was already being ‘prepped’ on the drawing board of the World Zionist movement.
    It appealed to the impressionable and was seized on by religious chancers who have used inappropriate methods to establish a large and dangerously un-Christian fringe to the Christianity movement. They call themselves Christian Zionists.
    Here is how Grace Halsell explained the re-hashed Biblical message: “Simply stated it is this: Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us. Never mind what Israel does, say the Christian Zionists. God wants this to happen…
    “Scofield said that Christ cannot return to earth until certain events occur: The Jews must return to Palestine, gain control of Jerusalem and rebuild a temple, and then we all must engage in the final, great battle called Armageddon. Estimates vary, but most students of Armageddon theology agree that as a result of these relatively recent interpretations of Biblical scripture, 10 to 40 million Americans believe Palestine is God’s chosen land for the Jews.”
    The problem, she said, was the belief system of Christian Zionists. “They believe that what Israel wants is what God wants. Therefore, it is perfectly acceptable to give the green light to whatever it is Israel wants and then conceal this from the American people. Anything, including lies, theft, even murder, is justified as long as Israel wants it.”
    Those pseudo-Christians, who would have us all believe that God is some kind of racist real estate agent, thereafter made her life a misery. . .

    ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.palestinechronicle.com/grace-halsell-de-bunker-of-christian-zionist-doctrine/#.Ux5dhvldV8E

    • DICKERSON3870
      DICKERSON3870
      March 10, 2014, 9:18 pm

      P.S. ALSO SEE: Israeli Extremists and Christian Fundamentalists: The Alliance, By Grace Halsell, Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, December 1988, Page 31

      [EXCERPT] At the time I began my research for my book “Prophecy and Politics”, I discovered the average American I met in Washington, DC, and New York was not interested in TV evangelists and their link to Israel. Neither were book editors. I went to 25 top editors in New York with my book idea on religion and politics. Michael Korda of Simon and Schuster was typical. “Jerry Falwell? Pat Robertson? Who is interested in those crazies?”
      By the time my book came out those “crazies” were on the front page of every American newspaper and on every news channel. Of course, I didn’t give them this instant fame, which extended throughout the world. Two of them earned it themselves by being in the middle of scandals.
      The press told us that Jim Baker had committed adultery and that Jimmy Swaggart regularly visited a prostitute. A fellow marine said Pat Robertson never had to dodge bullets in Korea because he had used his father’s influence as a senator to escape front line duty. But almost everyone ignored the biggest scandal of all: the peculiar mixture of prophecy and politics professed by these and other Christian Zionists.

      The Christian Zionists Message
      What is the message of the Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.
      “Never mind what Israel does,” say the Christian Zionists. “God wants this to happen.”
      This includes the invasion of Lebanon, which killed or injured an estimated 100,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, most of them civilians; the bombing of sovereign nations such as Iraq; the deliberate, methodical brutalizing of the Palestinians—breaking bones, shooting children, and demolishing homes; and the expulsion of Palestinian Christians and Muslims from a land they have occupied for over 2,000 years.
      My premise in “Prophecy and Politics” is that Christian Zionism is a dangerous and growing segment of Christianity, which was popularized by the 19th-century American Cyrus Scofield when he wrote into a Bible his interpretation of events in history. These events all centered around Israel—past, present, and future. His Scofield Bible is today the most popular of the reference Bibles.
      Scofield said that Christ cannot return to earth until certain events occur: The Jews must return to Palestine, gain control of Jerusalem and rebuild a temple, and then we all must engage in the final, great battle called Armageddon.
      Estimates vary, but most students of Armageddon theology agree that as a result of these relatively recent interpretations of Biblical scripture, 10 to 40 million Americans believe Palestine is God’s chosen land for the Jews. . .

      ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.palestinechronicle.com/grace-halsell-de-bunker-of-christian-zionist-doctrine/#.Ux5dhvldV8E

    • DICKERSON3870
      DICKERSON3870
      March 10, 2014, 9:35 pm

      P.P.S. ALSO SEE – “Christian Zionism: The Root of All Evil?” ~ By Tammy Obeidallah, The Palestine Chronicle, Aug 16 2010

      [EXCERPTS] It is common knowledge that many so-called Christians throw unconditional, unyielding support behind the Jewish state. Known as Christian Zionists, or more recently “Israel-firsters”—indicating their degree of loyalty over and above the interests of their own country—it is estimated they are over 50 million strong in the United States alone. By stripping biblical passages out of their proper context and ignoring historical perspective, Christian Zionist leaders have convinced the masses that Jesus Christ will return when all Jews are gathered in Palestine, even if it means the systemic destruction of the Palestinian people.
      Questions remain how such a blatantly un-biblical doctrine hijacked an entire segment of the Christian community; moreover, how the doctrine came to be so widely accepted not only in churches but in the halls of political power.
      It has been argued that Christian Zionism originated as a spin-off of secular Zionism; that Christians were co-opted by political Zionists in order to gain support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
      Ironically, Palestine was sixth on the list for such a homeland at Theodor Herzl’s First Zionist Congress in 1897, behind locales including Argentina, Uganda and Turkey. It was in fact the Christian Zionists who were orchestrating the takeover of Palestine from the beginning. . .
      . . . The Puritans drew a parallel between themselves and the Children of Israel, escaping religious persecution in Europe just as the ancient Hebrews were led out of Egypt. America was their “Promised Land,” making way for the doctrine of Manifest Destiny (that it was God’s divine will for the new country to stretch from sea to sea) that justified the abhorrent treatment of Native Americans. By the same token, Christian Zionism justifies the killing and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to this day. Plymouth Brethren minister John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) popularized the doctrine under the name “dispensationalism,” which was further spread by the Scofield Reference Bible published in 1909. That edition contained copious footnotes instructing readers how to interpret Bible verses and prophecy centered around the re-establishment of Israel as a modern nation-state.
      Thus the Zionist heresy was mass marketed to a largely ignorant populace who are convinced they do not have enough sense to read the Bible for themselves. Today, support for Israel has gained momentum through apocalyptic preaching by televangelists who make large profits for supporting Israel. They have co-opted Christian laypeople into thinking they can bring about Christ’s return, ending suffering on earth.

      It would be scary enough if such ideas were confined to churches, but Zionist Christians have organized political lobbies such as Christians United for Israel (CUFI). Arguably, they have considerable influence over US foreign policy, particularly effective with neo-conservatives as witnessed during the George W. Bush administration. Numerous Christian groups encourage Jewish immigration to what is now called Israel through financial contributions while assisting ultra-orthodox Jewish groups to promote settlement expansion on Palestinian land.
      Not only do Zionists distort biblical history, they spread lies about more modern events as well. Proponents of Israel will often pander the tired Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini obfuscation in an attempt to connect all Palestinians to Adolph Hitler. Husseini was imposed upon the Palestinians in 1921 by the British Mandate’s first high commissioner, a British Jew named Herbert Samuel. Husseini was selected over the rival Nashashibi candidate and favored by the Zionist Commission. Husseini allied with Hitler to oppose the British, falling into the trap as so many others who have believed “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.”. . .

      ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.palestinechronicle.com/christian-zionism-the-root-of-all-evil/#.Ux5kA_ldV8E

  20. MRW
    MRW
    March 11, 2014, 9:53 am

    Why is Israel trying to delegitimize Evangelicals?

  21. American
    American
    March 11, 2014, 1:42 pm

    Israel’s Grip on Evangelical Christians Loosens

    ”Support for Israel is weakening among evangelical Christians, prompting a new struggle for the hearts and minds of younger members of America’s largest pro-Israel demographic group.

    While hard numbers are not available, evangelical leaders on both sides of the divide on Israel agree that members of the millennial generation do not share their parents’ passion for the Jewish state.

    In June 2011, the Pew Research Center conducted a survey among evangelical leaders convened in Cape Town, South Africa, for the third Lausanne Congress of World Evangelization. The findings indicated lower support for Israel than previously believed. A majority of American evangelical leaders (49%) expressed neutrality when asked if they sympathize more with Israelis or with Palestinians. Thirty percent expressed support for Israelis, 13% for the Palestinians; many are seeking some form of evenhandedness when approaching the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

    The survey polled only leaders who participated in this international conference and did not offer insight into the views of rank-and-file evangelicals. But it highlighted the fact that only a minority within the evangelical leadership today hold strong pro-Israel views when it comes to Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and attendant conflict with the Palestinians.

    “What is happening is that the hard line of Christian Zionists was not successfully passed forward to the next generation, because it was based on theological themes that are now being questioned by younger evangelicals,” said David Gushee, professor of Christian ethics and director of the Center for Theology and Public Life at Mercer University in Atlanta.

    “We need to use the same tool to fight back,” CUFI declared in its pitch for Jewish donor support. The group is also launching speaking tours on campuses, and intends to invest in videos and social media activity that will monitor Christian influencers and “confront them when they cross the line.”

    Read more: http://forward.com/articles/194210/israels-grip-on-evangelical-christians-loosens/?p=all#ixzz2vg0VShFg

  22. puppies
    puppies
    March 11, 2014, 1:59 pm

    “This piece originally stated that the last quote came from a Jewish writer. Commenter Hophmi said he isn’t. Here it says he was born Jewish and is now a follower of Yeshua.”

    Best demonstration that racism is the only thing that holds Zionism together.

  23. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    March 11, 2014, 3:11 pm

    Talk about flipping the script: ““The attempt to use religious motifs in order to mobilize political propaganda and agitate the feelings of the faithful through the manipulation of religion and politics is an unacceptable and shameful act. Using religion for the purpose of incitement in the service of political interests stains the person who does it with a stain of indelible infamy.”

  24. joecatron
    joecatron
    March 11, 2014, 3:43 pm

    Apparently this ill-advised statement was such an embarrassment that the ministry of foreign affairs now denies having made it.

    https://twitter.com/ChristAtCheckpt/status/443440700584370176

    Or perhaps they didn’t. Who knows? Before some Zionist troll asks, no, I can’t personally confirm that they did.

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