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Racism disguised as liberal anguish

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Today The New York Times publishes four letters on Nick Kristof’s column about visiting Gaza, and three support the blockade. So Kristof didn’t make the case for blockade strongly enough. But the real interest here is the style of the letters. The blockade supporters are all so sad and shed tears over Gaza and one is even upset over the bombing. But they blame Hamas and say it is all their fault.

One says if the blockade is lifted then there will be no rebuilding and it will all just be material for Hamas to go to war and Israel will have to defend itself.

Sadly, however, easing the blockade is asking for full-scale war. Hamas is in control of Gaza, and it is not interested in building homes, schools or businesses. Whatever materials are acquired go to building tunnels so that Hamas can continue its unending war against Israel.

Easing the siege of Gaza will not lead to peace. It will end with Iran supplying sophisticated armaments to Hamas and a full-scale war when Israel does what it will have to do to protect itself.

That is bad faith in action. It wasn’t enough for this person to say that Hamas would smuggle weapons–she had to pretend there would be no rebuilding at all. That gives her a clear conscience.

So it is all bullshit. These people would never support a harsh blockade on Israel; they probably all reject even a mild form of BDS (boycott, divestment and sanctions). They have no concept of morality applying to both sides of a conflict: Israel can do whatever it wants in peace and war, and they will be sad but support Israel. It’s a clever way for people to think of themselves as liberal while being racist in their attitudes; and yet this is too subtle for the American liberal media to understand, while they are all so busy writing stories about the antisemitism that supposedly motivates BDS.

People understood perfectly well what Martin Luther King Jr. meant in his letter from a Birmingham jail to white moderates.

I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality

I should have realized that few members of the oppressor race can understand the deep groans and passionate yearnings of the oppressed race, and still fewer have the vision to see that injustice must be rooted out by strong, persistent and determined action.

This attitude is the same. And I think it is at the heart of how liberal Israel supporters reason. It is what Nick Kristof will never challenge because he is too nice and he also at heart shares some of the same double standard.

About Donald Johnson

Donald Johnson is a regular commenter on this site, as "Donald."

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48 Responses

  1. just
    March 10, 2015, 11:50 am

    Super article.

    “The blockade supporters are all so sad and shed tears over Gaza and one is even upset over the bombing. But they blame Hamas and say it is all their fault.”

    I’m seeing this all over the place as well, Donald. They blame all of the “leadership”, instead of ever placing any of the blame on Israel.

    Thanks.

    • Donald
      March 10, 2015, 12:49 pm

      Thanks. Ánd yes, this is a common meme–It’s always been around, but I thought it really took off during the bombing last summer. I guess if you’re a liberal and want to support Israel you have to find some way to rationalize it so that Hamas or someone other than the Israeli government gets virtually all the blame.

      A typo I didn’t catch until now–I meant to say that Kristof’s article didn’t make the case against the blockade strongly enough, not that he didn’t make it for the blockade strongly enough. Though given how he half argued that in some ways it was “working”‘ , maybe you could describe his column either way and it would be accurate.

      • mls31286
        March 10, 2015, 8:38 pm

        I am going to lead by saying I hope you post my comment even though I disagree with what is being said here and hope you are willing to listen to my side.

        “The internal differences and the absence of cooperation between the Palestinian Authority and Hamas are behind the delay in reconstructing the Gaza Strip,” This was said by the secretary general of the Arab League Elaraby – someone who does not like Israel.

        “That is bad faith in action. It wasn’t bad enough to say Hamas would smuggle weapons-she had to pretend there would be no rebuilding at all.” Hamas openly admits they are rearming and will never stop rearming. Their charter alone calls for to kill all Jews.

        Quote from Hamas’ leader:
        “The gun is our only response to [the] Zionist regime. In time we have come to understand that we can obtain our goals only through fighting and armed resistance and no compromise should be made with the enemy.”

        Quote from Hamas leader on how they will build an army secretly:
        “Thousands of fighters above ground and thousands of fighters underground have been preparing in silence for the campaign to liberate Palestine.”

        I can post a hundred more of those. As a liberal that champions the human rights of the Palestinians, I ask you the same question that you ask Kristoff – how can yo put all the blame on Israel? Hamas had children build their war tunnels, do nothing to defend their people when they shoot rockets from civilian areas. I’m sure you’ve heard this before: If Israel were to put down their weapons today, they would be destroyed, if the Palestinians put down their weapons there would be peace. If the Palestinians put down their weapons and Israel policies like the blockade don’t change, I will be the first to say you were right and I will stop defending Israel.

        Cement supposed to be used for rebuilding is also being sold on the blackmarket:

        At his warehouse, one of the biggest in Gaza City, manager Maher Khalil complained about the complexity of the system. “We do what we are supposed to do,” There is a list published with people’s names which we post outside. They check their name and come with their coupon. We check the ID and then give them the cement. We told the UN inspectors who came to see us we can only check what is going on inside the warehouse, not what is happening outside. Inside we sell the concrete for 500 shekels [£81] a tonne. Outside they sell it for 1,600.”

        Palestinians live in refugee camps in Lebanon and Syria? Why couldn’t they get citizenship as equals in those places like other countries take in refugees? Why wasn’t there a fuss when Egypt destroyed Palesitnians houses in Gaza along the Sinai?

        A true liberal would not support a regime that believes in arresting people for insulting Islam, has summer camps where children hold fake AK7s and kill Israeli’s, make professors resign and get death threats if they take their students to Aushwitz, call for the destruction of a whole people, discriminate against women, christians and gays. The list goes on.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        March 11, 2015, 7:03 am

        ”I can post a hundred more of those”

        So post them then. Cut and paste them from the same hasbara site where you got the rest of your post. Hamas charter, quotes from Arab collaborators, why-are-you-all-blaming-poor-lil-Israel. It’s all here!

        ”As a liberal that champions the human rights of the Palestinians, ”

        Please. What do you think this is, the New York Times? Do you seriously think that playing the anguished libzio, while still trotting out every lame hasbara cliche in the handbook, is going to cut the mustard here?

        You need to up your game, big time.

      • eljay
        March 11, 2015, 7:19 am

        || mls31286: As a liberal that champions the human rights of the Palestinians … If the Palestinians put down their weapons and Israel policies like the blockade don’t change, I will be the first to say you were right and I will stop defending Israel. ||

        So, at this time, you defend Israel – an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state – despite the fact that it has been stealing, occupying and colonizing Palestinian land and oppressing, torturing and killing Palestinians for over 60 years.

        And you will continue to defend Israel – the oppressor and colonizer – until such time as the Palestinians stop resisting oppression and colonization.

        But you’re a “liberal that champions the human rights of the Palestinians”. That is truly amusing! :-)

        “Hey, guys, I champion the rights of women. I really, really do. But unless the women chained in the rapist’s basement stop lashing out at him, I’m totally on his side.”

      • Donald
        March 11, 2015, 8:59 am

        As others have said, you just illustrated my point. You could have said that Hamas and the PA are themselves guilty of human rights violations and that would be true, but no, you also have to pretend to yourself that every act of cruelty committed by Israel is merely self defense.

    • a blah chick
      March 10, 2015, 10:46 pm

      “They blame all of the “leadership”, instead of ever placing any of the blame on Israel.”

      Zionism doesn’t do responsibility.

  2. Cliff
    March 10, 2015, 8:00 pm

    A Zionist will always judge the world through the lens of either Armageddon or ‘whats good for the [Zionist] Jews.’

    • Mooser
      March 10, 2015, 10:28 pm

      “mls31286”, it was very nice of you to drop in to validate the article, and give us a guided tour through the pathetic sophistries and appeals to bigotry which typify racism disguised as liberal anguish.

  3. a blah chick
    March 10, 2015, 10:44 pm

    Mls31286- “I am going to lead by saying I hope you post my comment even though I disagree with what is being said here and hope you are willing to listen to my side.”

    Whereupon he/she reiterates the very same talking points repeated in the media again and again. As if we have not heard them before.

    Have you no humanity left in you? Can you feel nothing seeing those dead babies in those ice cream coolers? Whole families wiped out and neighborhoods destroyed? Spin those horrors anyway you like but those were Israeli bombs falling on Palestinians people. You are just trying to salve your miserable conscious by blaming the victim. I’ve tried to engage people like you in the past but no more. There is no heart there, no concept of decency or simple humanity.

    • Mooser
      March 11, 2015, 11:00 am

      “Whereupon he/she reiterates the very same talking points repeated in the media again and again. As if we have not heard them before.”

      And does it in exactly the pseudo-liberal vintage whine delineated in the article. I spent quite a few seconds, nearly 10, trying to decide whether the post was an ironic parody of a Zionist, or the real thing.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        March 11, 2015, 2:15 pm

        I also wondered if this was a piss take.

        But it isn’t.

        He’s for real.

  4. mls31286
    March 11, 2015, 9:48 am

    All of you don’t provide any facts. You shout extremes without providing a shred of evidence. I never once said I don’t feel bad for the Palestinians. I never once said I agree with everything Israel does. I think Israel’s settlement policy is wrong and I think Israel has used excessive force at times and they should be held accountable just like any other country in the world – but that’s exactly my point – like any other country in the world. They are held to a higher standard – you can spew your extreme language and actual talking points all you want by insulting my humanity about not caring about “dead babies in ice cream coolers”. How come you all act like Israel has no grievances? Before trying to fix others people need to look inwards. More civilians have died in Syria than in the whole entire Israeli/Palestinian conflict yet you speak of Israel as if they are committing genocide. Again, I’m not absolving ISrael but am asking you why you speak so strong against Israel, who has treats Arabs better than most Arab leaders in the middle east, like they are hte worst people in the world.

    None of you want peace – you live on hatred. I made a mistake trying to have a real argument based on facts. You ask how it must feel to be oppressed by the Israeli’s but you don’t like ask how it feels to see your children blown up during the second Intifada or someone sneak into your house in the middle of the night and slit the throats of a whole family, including a 6 year old infant in cold blood. Aren’t Israeli’s human too? Don’t they have rights just like Palestinians? Wouldn’t an Israeli who lost his children to a rocket feel the same as a Palestinian? Both sides have narratives – the fact you 100% only give legitimacy to one shows you lack wisdom. Hate won’t get us anywhere.

    • seafoid
      March 11, 2015, 9:50 am

      “They are held to a higher standard ”

      FFS. they are shielded from international laws at the UN by the US veto.
      What is Israel afraid of ?

      Israelis are traumatised humans running la chingada. Fuck Israel.

      • Walid
        March 11, 2015, 10:29 am

        “Israelis are traumatised humans … ”

        It’s only make believe, seafoid, and it works especially if used in conjunction with the big “H”.

      • seafoid
        March 11, 2015, 10:46 am

        The reality of the spiritually dead, Walid
        Fruits of the education system and a society built to the sick specifications of the IDF

      • Walid
        March 11, 2015, 11:14 am

        The very first library book I borrowed at age 10 was a short bio of Chief Crazy Horse; been fascinated by these people since then.

      • seafoid
        March 11, 2015, 3:46 pm

        Trudell would be very interesting on Israel. It’s even more fucked up spiritually than the US.
        And he’s very good on the US.

    • eljay
      March 11, 2015, 10:12 am

      || mls31286: I never once said I agree with everything Israel does. ||

      No, you didn’t. What you essentially did say is that you choose Israeli policies over Palestinian human rights.

      || They are held to a higher standard … ||

      No it’s not.

      || How come you all act like Israel has no grievances? ||

      How come you act as though Israel is not an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state that, for almost 70 years has been stealing, occupying and colonizing Palestinian land and oppressing, torturing and killing Palestinians?

      || Before trying to fix others people need to look inwards. ||

      You might want to point that out to Israel.

      || Again, I’m not absolving ISrael … ||

      Yes you are. Your entire post is one big ranting attempt to absolve Israel of its past and on-going (war) crimes and its obligations under international law.

      But, sure, you’re a “liberal that champions the human rights of the Palestinians”. Too funny! :-)

      • eljay
        March 11, 2015, 10:38 am

        || mls31286: Before trying to fix others people need to look inwards. ||

        This was perhaps your best – and most hypocritical – line. Zio-supremacists like you never fail to excuse Israel’s past and on-going (war) crimes by looking anywhere and everywhere except inwards.

        You say, “Fix Iran, fix Syria, fix Saudi Arabia, fix Arabs, fix Muslims, fix Europe, fix China, fix this and fix that,” but you never, ever say “Fix Israel before trying to fix others.”

    • Kris
      March 11, 2015, 10:27 am

      Please read a few months or more of Kate’s columns to get more up to speed. Israel is carrying out a slow motion genocide of the Palestinians in order to steal their land and resources. Most people don’t sympathize with thieves.

      Do you think Palestinians have any right to resist? Would you also have condemned Jews who resisted the Nazis in the Warsaw ghetto?

      • mls31286
        March 11, 2015, 12:06 pm

        The Palestinian population has grown in the West Bank and Gaza. Please study what genocide is and do not use the word so lightly.

      • Annie Robbins
        March 11, 2015, 2:02 pm

        i suggest you read the definition of the crime of genocide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide#International_law

        …any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
        (a) Killing members of the group;
        (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
        (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
        (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
        (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

        there’s nothing light about it.

      • Mooser
        March 11, 2015, 2:54 pm

        “The Palestinian population has grown in the West Bank and Gaza.”

        Grown? Grown as much as it should, as much as it could? Why the hell do you have anything to say about the Palestinian population?
        It has the right to grow as it will, what gives you the right to impede or control its growth in any way?

      • Walid
        March 11, 2015, 3:13 pm

        Mooser, 4 years ago at Herzliya, Martin Kramer preached to the gathered Zionists, Gunnar Heinsohn’s concept of “superfluous young men”, which in a nutshell was telling them to stop the Europeans from feeding so much the Palestinians, especially those of Gaza to curtail birthrates and thereby reduce the incidence of terror attacks on Israel. I guess you have to be a Zionst to appreciate this concept.

      • seafoid
        March 11, 2015, 4:30 pm

        Walid

        In 1944, Henry Morgenthau came up with a plan for defeated Germany that would have restricted adults to 1000 calories per day.
        Guess what ideology Morgenthau belonged to.

      • Walid
        March 11, 2015, 4:50 pm

        So Dov Weisglass’ 2006 concept of starving the Palestinians but not letting them die was not an original idea. He could have at least given credit to Morgenthau.

        Morgenthau, Weisglas. Kramer, mls, must be from the same water they all drink.

      • seafoid
        March 11, 2015, 5:03 pm

        Walid
        The americans didn’t allow Morgenthau to deindustrialise Germany but 2 Generations later they were comfortable with Israel doing it to Gaza. Kosher lemehadrin.

    • Donald
      March 11, 2015, 10:52 am

      Well, random character pseudonym person I agree that Palestinians have committed atrocities against Israeli civilians. I agree that this is immoral. I would be fine if the ICC holds all sides to account. But you didn’t try to have a conversation based on facts. You tried to pin all the blame for the conflict on the Palestinians and you defended Israel’s blockade, and you acted as though I in particular defend Hamas, on no evidence at all. You then make sweeping statements about how all of us are haters. In fact there are various views here about the Middle East–we are in agreement that Israel violates human rights on a massive scale and does so with America’s backing, which is why the issue concerns those of us who are American.

      The point of the original post was that defenders of Israel often express compassion for Palestinians and then justify everything that Israel does on the grounds that it is all Hamas’s fault. You then came in and did the same thing in your first post. I agree that Hamas is a rightwing religious organization, which is generally bad news, and has a despicable charter and a long history of atrocities. And none of that justifies a draconian blockade against everyone in Gaza. Yes, if the blockade were lifted it would probably mean more weapons would be smuggled in, but it’s also true that Gazans would benefit enormously from being able to conduct normal economic activity and rebuild. It’s sheer bad faith to ignore this, but that’s what Israel defenders do–rather than make legitimate points they go way beyond the facts and pretend that what Israel does is fine, because if Israel behaved humanely it would only benefit Hamas.

      So then, would it be okay to impose a draconian blockade on Israel until they leave the West Bank and lift the blockade on Gaza? Would it be okay to pretend that this is fine, because if the blockade were lifted the Israelis would only import more weapons to kill civilians and build more settlements? Would it be okay to target the homes of Likud members and IDF soldiers with precision missiles? Would it be okay to pretend that innocent Israeli children wouldn’t suffer under such policies and if they did, it would all be Israel’s fault? Does it ever once occur to you to think about this from the point of view that both sides have equal human rights and collective punishment is bad and that it is wrong to blame the crimes of party X on party Y?

      Israel isn’t being held to a higher standard. Israel is being allowed to act like apartheid South Africa and call itself a democracy and receive weapons and support from the US. That’s the real world. You complain because you think some blog commenters are being unfair, and you don’t bother to get your facts right even on that utterly trivial issue.

      • mls31286
        March 11, 2015, 11:25 am

        Donald,

        You make some good points. You are someone I can talk to because even though I don’t agree with you on all topics, you speak with reason. Most of my comments are directed at those that are commenting on your article. They clearly have their minds made up that Israeli’s are the worst human beings on earth. The commentors talk about a slow genocide being commited by Israeli’s when Israeli Arabs have one of the longest life spans in the MIddle East…Fact. The Palestinans population has grown in both Gaza and the West Bank. You just can’t throw around the term genocide and ethnic cleansing when there are absolutely zero facts to back it up. Now I will try and respond to you thoughtfully providing facts.

        In your article you stated “That is bad faith in action. It wasn’t enough for this person to say that Hamas would smuggle weapons” I think I misinterpreted this to mean you thought it was ridiculous for Kristoff to say Hamas would smuggle weapons when it appears you were mainly saying it’s ridiculous to say no rebuilding would happen.

        I do not think the whole conflict is the Palestinians fault. I actually very much dislike Netanyahu and his policies. I do think the blockade is necessary although not to the extreme it has been at points. I base this on the initial withdrawal from Gaza back in the early 2000’s by the Israeli’s when a blockade didn’t exist and the genocidal nature of Hamas who does in fact control Gaza. The Palestinians voted for Hamas and now Hamas still somehow enjoys popular support in Gaza. Hamas imported weapons and attacked Israelis which brought about the blockade. If that is now how you saw events unfold, please share with me what happened. Israel obviously sees the risk of removing the blockade and Hamas getting advanced weapons from Iran too much of a threat to it’s citizens. Hamas’s charter does indeed call for the death of all Jews – you can look it up anywhere. Hamas backs it up by importing weapons and attacking Israel. They are in a state of war. If Hamas, who controls Gaza, refuses to even accept Israeli’s existence, is Israeli supposed to put it’s citizens at risk for the sake of human rights? What if the blockade is removed and Hamas acquires advanced weaponry Israel can’t contain? These are real life questions that Israeli leadership has to deal with – people really want to kill all of them. You talk of bad faith – these two groups have been in a brutal war with each other – what have the Palestinians done for Israeli to show good faith? There are lives at stake – it’s not an oops, I was wrong. If Hamas accepts Israel upon the 67 borders formally, then I’d be fine asking Israel to show good faith.

        Israeli leadership has recognized the two state solution. They have offered the Palestinans 96% of the West Bank with land swaps. Most Israeli’s mourn the deaths of Palestinians and say they just want peace – all you have to do is see what happened in both West Bank and the Gaza strip after the 3 Israeli Teenagers were kidnapped and murdered. This quote was posted on the official Fatah facebook page (not Hamas, the PA) “Good morning, Martyrs of Palestine, who are watering our roots with their blood.”

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        March 11, 2015, 11:49 am

        ”Israeli leadership has recognized the two state solution. They have offered the Palestinans 96% of the West Bank with land swaps.”

        Come on! Couldn’t you even get the updated version of the Hasbara Handbook to cut and paste from?

        I swear you’re just trolling us now.

      • Donald
        March 11, 2015, 11:55 am

        No I don’t think that’s what happened regarding the withdrawal. Sharon withdrew settlers, but didn’t ease up on control of Gaza’s borders. One of Sharon’s advisers (Dov Weissglass, I think, but I can’t recall the exact spelling) said that it was really a ploy to keep the West Bank. Appear to show that Israel is reasonable and if there is any Palestinian violence, then there’s the excuse to maintain control.

        As for violence, it’s often been the case that Israel shoots, Palestinians fire rockets, Israel then “retaliates”. The first step is often omitted in Western press coverage. But just the other day a Gazan fisherman was shot. If that had been an Israeli shot by Hamas, there would have been retaliation, and it would have been reported as such, but if some Palestinian group fires rockets in retaliation for the fisherman, then I can guarantee that Israel will retaliate for the retaliation and the NYT will leave out the fisherman. Palestinians live in a background of violence and oppression by the Israelis and the Western or at least the American press often reports the violence as only beginning when a Palestinian fires a rocket.

        As for who has said what sorts of nasty things, I think you find plenty of that on both sides. There is a failing of both Americans and Israelis, however, in thinking that because they condemn some specific nastiness by some extremist on their own side this gets them off the hook on the bigger issue. This just came up on a TV show in America last night on the subject of Ferguson. The whole police force has been acting racist in incredible ways, but the only two people who have been fired were fired because of some racist emails. They deserved to be fired, I assume, but they were scapegoats. The root problem is much deeper. So coming back to Israel, I know the killers of the Palestinian last summer were condemned, but earlier that summer, as Mondoweiss recently covered, Palestinians had been shot by an Israeli soldier. That is systemic, and it’s not something that can be blamed on a few bad apples, though that’s what Israelis try to do.

        As for what happens here, people have seen so many attempts at Israeli self-justification that we generally react harshly to posts like yours. If Israelis are sincere about wanting peace, you guys are going to have to get serious about the oppression of the Palestinians. This doesn’t mean that you don’t worry about terrorism–it means that you start looking at the systemic problems in your society that cause so much harm to Palestinians. Again, I’ll use an American example. Where I grew up the whites seem to assume that once Jim Crow policies were lifted, everything was fine, white racism was no longer a factor, and they could immediately start blaming blacks for being poor. It’s forty years later and we’re seeing in the news that we are still living in a country that has entire police forces that are basically corrupt racist gang members. So no, I don’t think Israelis are some uniquely evil group-that’s silly. But Israelis grow up in a society that exists as a Jewish state because of ethnic cleansing just 70 years ago and tells itself this was justified. This has got to permeate the society in all kinds of unhealthy ways, similar to how the history of the US has been permeated with racism towards blacks and Native Americans and to varying degrees other groups as well.

      • eljay
        March 11, 2015, 12:31 pm

        || mls31286 @ March 11, 2015, 11:25 am ||

        Pure Zio-supremacism, right down to the bit about Israelis wanting “peace”. All of Israel’s past and on-going (war) crimes and the Zio-supremacist ideology behind them are white-washed.

        No mention of the fact that Israel refuses to honour its obligations under international law (including the RoR of refugees from Partition-borders Israel). No interest at all in justice, accountability or equality. No looking inward before trying to fix others.

        Just “Fix this, fix that and maybe I’ll condemn Israel’s decades-long record of (war) crimes. Maybe.”

        With a “liberal that champions the human rights of the Palestinians” like this guy, the Palestinians don’t need any other enemies!

      • mls31286
        March 11, 2015, 5:56 pm

        Donald,

        I want to address where you say “The point of the original post was that defenders of Israel often express compassion for Palestinians and then justify everything that Israel does on the grounds that it is all Hamas’s fault.” I justify what Israel is doing based on the fact Hamas is the elected government of the Palestinians in the Gaza strip and states it’s main goal is to destroy Israel and does all in it’s power to accomplish that goal. If the Palestinians want the blockade gone, then they need to make sure Hamas stops smuggling weapons. Hamas is a big part of Palestinian society – it can’t be ignored. I don’t think it’s wrong to think human suffering is wrong and place most of the blame on Hamas and part of the blame on Israel. Once again, Israel does plenty wrong – in every country there is systematic discrimination – but everyone decides to act as if the Jews went into the Palestinian Mandate and started murdering people innocently farming their lands. This is nonsense – it is a complicated conflict with multiple conflicting narratives.

        If Israel removes the blockade it puts Israeli lives at stake plain and simple. Why? Because Hamas that controls Gaza wants to kill all Jews as stated by themselves multiple times. If violating human rights is the only way to make your citizens safe – then it must be done. This is how you can can empathize with the innocent Palestinians caught in the cross fire of the conflict while defending Israel’s blockade.

        Finally, Arab Muslims are responsible for the worst human rights abuses against their own people int he world along with discrimination yet you defend a Palestinian culture largely built on the same beliefs. Based on the history of strife, war and instability in Arab nations in the region (Iraq, Lybia Syria) and the fact there are still slaves in places like Qatar, floggings for insulting Islam in Saudi Arabia, and so on, what do you think a Palestinian state would look like? What have the Palestinians done to advance people and help their average citizens? Has violence actually accomplished anything? Israel is the only diverse country in the Middle East with 20% Arab Muslim population. Iran 98% Muslim. Saudi Arabia 100% Muslim. Iraq 97% Muslim. Turkey 99% Muslim.

      • RoHa
        March 12, 2015, 5:42 am

        ” in every country there is systematic discrimination”

        Every?

        “but everyone decides to act as if the Jews went into the Palestinian Mandate and started murdering people innocently farming their lands. ”

        Jews went into Palestine with the intention of taking over the country, and expelling or subjugating the Christians and Muslims who were already living there and innocently farming their lands and running their businesses. They started driving farmers off the land fairly early, and Jewish terrorists started murdering people.

        (Now I know you are going to squawk about Arab violence, but that was a reaction to the Jewish invasion. Palestinian Arabs did not go to Poland, Germany, etc., and start trying to take over. It was Poles, Germans, etc., who left their countries and went to cause trouble in Palestine.)

        “– it is a complicated conflict with multiple conflicting narratives.”

        Since they conflict, they can’t all be true. And the moral issues depend on the truth.

        ” If violating human rights is the only way to make your citizens safe – then it must be done. ”

        If it is the only way, then

        (a) you have probably created the situation by some previous violations of human rights,

        and

        (b) you have a choice between safety of citizens and violation of rights.

        Is that safety so morally important that it outweighs the rights of non-citizens? There is no “must” about it.

        But you do not need to make that choice, because that is not the only way. If Israel were to follow the path of justice and decency, the citizens would be safer than they are now.

        If Israel were to say

        “Whoops! Zionism was wrong and the founding of Israel was wrong. Our mistake. Sorry about that. From now on, all Palestine will be a single democratic state, and all Jews and Arabs (including the refugees) will be equal citizens. We will do our best to compensate Palestinians for past wrongs. Now let us all work together to try to create a decent, reasonably just, state here”,

        then the conflict would be over. There might be few hardliners on both sides who would try to make trouble, but they would be just a minor danger.

        Can Israelis accept justice and decency?

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      March 11, 2015, 11:31 am

      100% pure hasbara. Every single word of it. Right down to slipping in and out of broken English to try to give an ‘authentic’ feel to your War Room cut ‘n’ paste.

      You really should have done a bit of research into this site before trying it on with your shopworn hasbara.It might work on the NYT but you’re dealing here with some very well informed people who have seen it all a million times before. You haven’t offered ONE even remotely original or thought provoking comment. Not one. This whole ”I’m really SO concerned about Palestinians and I ‘oppose the settlements’ – honest I do – but why are yiz all pickin on baby Izrael?” schtick is so, so tired. Try something new.

      • mls31286
        March 11, 2015, 12:06 pm

        Prove one thing I said is not true. I know facts and hasbara are the same to people like you.

      • a blah chick
        March 11, 2015, 12:47 pm

        “Try something new.”

        That’s the frustration with trying to engage people like this, facts mean nothing.

      • Mooser
        March 11, 2015, 4:18 pm

        “I know facts and hasbara are the same to people like you.”

        “mls31286” does it ever occur to you that when even you use the word “hasbara” to mean ‘the opposite of facts, propaganda, lies’ you are pretty much beat before you begin?

    • wfleitz
      March 11, 2015, 12:30 pm

      Give it a break please. It’s well known that “israel” helped to create Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO.

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/

      http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

      Citizens of both north “america” and “israel” alike seem to think that they can bomb, kill, mutilate, murder, rape, pillage ad nauseam but if even a single individual raises a finger to fight back then–gasp–we are under attack from monstrous terrorist!

      I got an idea. Let’s give Palestine thousands of tanks, jets, bombers, etc. and even things up and then let’s see how “israel” reacts.

    • oldgeezer
      March 12, 2015, 2:13 am

      @mls31286

      “They are held to a higher standard ”

      I confess I am with you that Israel is held to a different standard than the rest of the world. It is unfair in the extreme so I am in your corner on that one.

      I also confess that my ability to recall all the events of the past half century or so in my mind is trying at best.

      Israel currently occupies, as a result of aggresive force against it’s neighbours, territory belonging to the Syrians, Lebanese and Palestinians. It has also illegally annexed territory to it’s own state.

      If I recall correctly when North Korea tried that they were met with force from the world community. When North Vietnam tried that they were met with force from a number of western nations (primarily the US). When Iraq tried that they were invaded and regime change instituted. When Russia tried that they were hit with major sanctions from western nations.

      It is truly unfair that Israel is held to a different standard.

      Which of the normal options do you prefer? I am ok with sanctions and think it’s preferable as I am general antiwar but would you suggest an invasion and/or regime change is appropriate so that Israel is held to the same standards?

      ” More civilians have died in Syria than in the whole entire Israeli/Palestinian conflict yet you speak of Israel as if they are committing genocide. ”

      But they are. The fact you don’t understand what genocide means doesn’t absolve Israel from the crime. The latest victims are approx 30,000 Bedoiun in the Negev.

      “but you don’t like ask how it feels to see your children blown up during the second Intifada or someone sneak into your house in the middle of the night and slit the throats of a whole family,”

      I think it has to be horrible and the acts were reprehensible. But those crimes don’t justify the prior crimes committed by Israel leading up to those events. Israeli leaders knew that their illegal acts place their citizens at risk for retribution and you should be looking inward to those who led you down the garden path like lambs to the slaughter.

      “Don’t they have rights just like Palestinians?”

      To my mind they do. They have a right to live in peace, have their freedoms regardless of religion, gender, race, sexual orientation and ethnicity.

      In terms of the last item that isn’t going to work in what is defined as an ethnocracy of course which is what Israel is. Don’t pretend it is a democracy.

      But to suggest that they have a right to live in peace while they are denying others the same human rights is a farce. You don’t get to oppress millions of people for half a century, denying them their basic human rights, the cry victim when they fight back.

      As a someone who is a liberal too, believe me when I say I care as much about you as you care about Palestinians. All I ask is that you live withing your declared borders and stop murdering women and children in the thousands every couple of years.

      Is that too much?

      • oldgeezer
        March 12, 2015, 3:07 am

        @mls31286

        I’m sorry, I forgot to mention the zionists favourite examples. One being Turkey/Cyprus which was in response to a military coup over the legitimate government and China/Tibet, the latter of which has not been reconized as a separate entity for the vast majority of the past 800 years.

        I could toss in Argentina/Falklands.

        Probably a few more. Again it’s clear Israel has been held to a different standard and that’s racist in itsel as it presumes Israel can’t abide by the laws the rest of the world does and we can’t expect them to be able to do so.

        Regime change or sanctions? Which will it be?

        As to what kind of government could be expected from the Palestinians given the type of nations run by other Arabs well apart from the rank racism of your question and also factoring in the murder rate and oppression of millions of people by Israel I’d say there is a good chance it will be a damn sight better than Israel. You don’t get much worse. Yeah you don’t hang gays but turning entire families into pink mist is pretty cool. Emptying your clip into 12 year old kids on their way from home seems ok by them as well.

      • mls31286
        March 12, 2015, 4:14 pm

        Did you just say Israel has killed 30,000 Bedoiun in the Negev? Please show me one shred of evidence of this.

        I love how people say they are informed when they read this site – this site literally never has an opposing point of view and you think it educates you. You only agree with facts that fit your narrative. I bet everyone on this site believed Israel opened a Damn and flooded the West Bank a couple weeks ago as spoken by the the Hamas Interior Minister. A straight up lie as no damn exists – just like these 30,000 Bedoiun somehow Israel is murdered but is not reported anywhere.

        It’s a sad world when free press of the West is considered Hasbara and government controlled press is what you believe.

      • oldgeezer
        March 16, 2015, 11:32 am

        @mls

        Nowhere did I say that Israel killed 30,000 in the Negev. You either know that or you still haven’t bothered to find out what constitutes the crimes of genocide and ethnic cleansing.

        I suspect you are willfully obtuse so you can deflect from the crimes of the racist apartheid state.

      • eljay
        March 16, 2015, 11:36 am

        || mls31286eee: You only agree with facts that fit your narrative. ||

        That’s a good one, coming from a Zio-supremacist. :-)

  5. seafoid
    March 11, 2015, 9:56 am

    Regarding Israel and Zionism

    Nothing at all can be expected except for the use of violence

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAoA6zXyWY8

    Stereolab really were the dog’s bollocks, innit

  6. mls31286
    March 12, 2015, 4:17 pm

    Donald,

    FYI – this news just came out today – note the proposal was put forward by PALESTINIAN and INTL parties and Israel accepted. But Hamas did not. The blockade could have been lifted but Hamas refused. I know even though there is a quote from the Hamas spokesman below you are all going to say I’m lying and the world media lies, butI wanted to give one last try.

    “The Palestinian militant group Hamas has rejected a proposal for a five-year truce with Israel that would have included the lifting of the blockade on the Gaza Strip, according to senior Hamas official Musa Abu Marzouk.

    Marzouk said that the proposal—put forth by Israeli, Palestinian, and international parties—also included clauses about the establishment of an airport and a seaport in Hamas-ruled Gaza, Haaretz reported. “

  7. eljay
    March 16, 2015, 7:21 am

    || mls31286eee: Donald, FYI – this news just came out today – … The blockade could have been lifted but Hamas refused. … ||

    Understandable:

    Hamas official Musa Abu Marzouk: “We’re paying a steep price for our stance by the continued blockade and economic pressure over the Strip, but we reject any idea that would lead to the separation of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank … “

    The proposal should have been for a five-year truce during which Israel would:
    – end its 60+ years and ON-GOING occupation and colonization of Palestine;
    – withdraw to within its (Partition) borders; and
    – enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace.

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