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ICC rules prosecutor to reconsider ‘Mavi Marmara’ investigation

Israel/Palestine
on 106 Comments

In a 2-1 decision, judges of the International Criminal Court (ICC) ruled that Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda committed “material errors” in her “Decision Not to Investigate” war crimes complaints concerning the murderous Israeli 2010 raid on the Mavi Marmara, killing 9 humanitarian aid workers in May 2010, and ordered her to reconsider her decision as soon as possible.

Previously, in concluding her preliminary examination, Bensouda stated last November there was a basis to believe “war crimes under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court were committed” but that they would not be of “sufficient gravity” to justify further action by the ICC.

On the request of the Union of the Comoros to review the Prosecutor’s decision not to initiate an investigation, yesterday’s ICC judges’ ruling stated:

2. […] The Prosecutor determined that there was reasonable basis to believe that the war crimes of wilful killing under article 8(2)(a)(i), wilfully causing serious injury to body and health under article 8(2)(a)(iii), committing outrages upon personal dignity under article 8(2)(b)(xxi), and, if the blockade of Gaza by Israel is to be deemed unlawful, also intentionally directing an attack against civilian objects under article 8(2)(b)(ii) of the Rome Statute (the “Statute”) have been committed in the context of the referred situation.

Continuing:

18. By articulating in the Decision Not to Investigate a principle without basis in the law, the Prosecutor committed an error. However, the Chamber observes that the Prosecutor did not in fact apply the principle she announced, and did take into account certain facts “outside of the Court’s jurisdiction” for the purposes of her analysis under article 53(1) of the Statute, such as for her conclusion that crimes were committed only on the Mavi Marmara and that no serious injuries occurred on the other vessels in the flotilla (para. 138), or for her conclusion that the identified crimes had no significant impact on the population in Gaza (para. 141).

19. Therefore, the Chamber is of the view that the articulation of the erroneous abstract principle did not, as such, affect the validity of the Prosecutor’s assessment of gravity. The various factors considered by the Prosecutor in the context of her assessment of gravity need to be examined individually.

The Jerusalem Post reports this is a “shocking” decision of the court and positions the court as “closest it has ever been to intervening directly in the Israeli-Arab conflict”

Using harsh language, the ICC told Bensouda she should have considered more seriously the possibility that the deaths of those killed by the IDF in the incident were “systematic or resulted from a deliberate plan or policy to attack, kill or injure civilians.”

The decision puts the ICC the closest it has ever been to intervening directly in the Israeli-Arab conflict and places the court in the position of potentially being harsher on Israel than Bensouda, who herself has been criticized by Israel for recognizing a State of Palestine…

Bensouda very well may close the file again, but the court’s order means there is a very serious chance Israelis will face a full criminal investigation – something that has not yet occurred even regarding the 2014 Gaza war, Operation Protective Edge.

Article 46 of the Rome Statute and the Rules of Procedure and Evidence Article 24 require that a Judge or Prosecutor be removed from office for a “serious breach of duty” if either Repeatedly causes unwarranted delay in the initiation, prosecution or trial of cases, or in the exercise of judicial powers.“*

A “very serious chance Israelis will face a full criminal investigation”. That sounds very promising. Coming on the heels of the Iran Deal, this is shaping into a promising week indeed.

Predictably Netanyahu and others are freaking out.

 * Thanks to Hostage, for his contribution to this report

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annie
About Annie Robbins

Annie Robbins is Editor at Large for Mondoweiss, a mother, a human rights activist and a ceramic artist. She lives in the SF bay area. Follow her on Twitter @anniefofani

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106 Responses

  1. just
    just
    July 17, 2015, 1:40 pm

    Hallelujah!

    “Evidence Article 24 require that a Judge or Prosecutor be removed from office for a “serious breach of duty” if either “Repeatedly causes unwarranted delay in the initiation, prosecution or trial of cases, or in the exercise of judicial powers.“*

    A “very serious chance Israelis will face a full criminal investigation”. That sounds very promising. Coming on the heels of the Iran Deal, this is shaping into a promising week indeed.”

    Thanks so much for highlighting this incredibly important turn of events, Annie and Hostage. May justice be done, and may this be the first of many injustices set right.

    (I do wonder if the recent illegal seizure/sabotage of Freedom Flotilla had a bit of influence…)

  2. just
    just
    July 17, 2015, 3:29 pm

    Ali Abunimah has an article up on this as well. I had not heard/read about this:

    “… Pursuit of justice

    Separately, last month, a Spanish judge urged his country’s government to pursue the cases of three Spanish citizens who were aboard the Mavi Marmara at the ICC.

    Judge Jose de la Mata was forced to close his investigation due to laws passed in 2014 limiting the ability of Spanish magistrates to pursue international cases. The decision to pursue the cases is now in the hands of political authorities at the justice ministry.

    Two Spanish activists and a journalist who were aboard the Mavi Marmara have filed cases against Netanyahu and six other Israeli ministers accusing them of illegal arrest, torture and deportation.

    “I will be able to start the trial again if Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Israeli ministers set foot on Spanish soil,” the judge told reporters.

    Families of the victims have initiated their own legal proceedings in Turkey, whose authorities issued arrest warrants last year for a number of senior Israeli officers suspected of involvement in the killings.

    Last month, Israeli commandos again used violence to commandeer the Marianne in international waters, as the vessel attempted to break Israel’s ongoing maritime siege of Gaza.”

    https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/icc-judges-order-new-probe-israeli-massacre-mavi-marmara

    • WH
      WH
      July 17, 2015, 5:41 pm

      Oh dear, no more holidays on the Costa Brava for Bibi then…

      • just
        just
        July 17, 2015, 6:00 pm

        I guess that’s another reason why he didn’t sign up for ‘BirthWrong’…

        “‘BirthWrong’ in the Cradle of Jewish Culture: Jews gather in southern Spain for tour that aims to repudiate Zionism” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/birthwrong-southern-repudiate#sthash.FzOHKdwy.dpuf

        lol !

      • annie
        annie
        July 18, 2015, 1:56 am

        Oh dear, no more holidays on the Costa Brava for Bibi
        – I guess that’s another reason why he didn’t sign up for ‘BirthWrong’…

        omg i can’t stop laughing …

  3. HarryLaw
    HarryLaw
    July 17, 2015, 4:03 pm

    Kevin Jon Heller at Opinio Juris in his analysis of the importance of the ‘gravity’ of the war crime in question, gives a hypothetical situation whereby a group of the lowest-ranking soldiers from State X executes, against the stated wishes of their commanders, 10 civilians from State Y. The OTP would conclude that the “potential perpetrator” gravity factor militates against opening a formal investigation in State Y, because the crime in question, though terrible, did not involve militarily important perpetrators. The PTC, by contrast, would reach precisely the opposite conclusion concerning gravity, deeming the soldiers “most responsible” for the crime by virtue of the fact that they acted against orders. After all, no one else was responsible for the decision to execute the civilians. http://opiniojuris.org/2015/07/17/the-pre-trial-chambers-problematic-comoros-review-decision/ How would the Prosecutor know that the Israeli High Command including Netanyahu and his cabinet were not responsible for the killings, and that the soldiers were acting against orders, Oh I see, because he [Netanyahu] said he was not. Many Israeli Generals have said, the targeting of civilians was a policy which has been authorized at the highest level, how is it possible to conclude that this incident was not preplanned, without an investigation?

    • just
      just
      July 17, 2015, 4:05 pm

      +1, HarryLaw!

      In the latest illegal seizure, they made it clear it was ordered from the top. What’s to say that the murders and mayhem perpetrated by Israel aboard the Mavi Marmara was any different?

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        July 25, 2015, 2:22 am

        @Hostage

        “I believe if you check the archives here, you’ll find that I have been critical of the US government ”

        I don’t have to check anything. You’re retired United States military. You volunteered , and for many years, you helped oil and maintain the greatest killing machine in the history of mankind.

        How many Vietnamese civilians did the US Air Force kill? A million?

        The record is clear, counsel.
        US military interventions in Nicaragua, Honduras, Kuwait, The Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, etc. etc.

        That’s a lot of death and destruction. No?

        Dead Panamanians? Sure.

        Oh. Then there was the attempted assassination of Muammer Qaddafi, and the shoot down of an Iranian airliner with 250 passengers. Wasn’t Lockerbee a consequence of those US military blunders?

        Hostage. You could have walked away from the military at any time, but, instead, you remained until retirement.

        And now, after your direct complicity in the death and destruction of millions of Third World peoples, most of whom were not a direct threat to the United States, you show up with a bunch of law books and obsessively prosecute Israel.

        Uhh…..yeah. Hypocrite.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 25, 2015, 6:01 am

        I love how you eloquently, yet unknowingly admit to supporting Israels crimes…to this very moment.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 25, 2015, 12:01 pm

        I don’t have to check anything. You’re retired United States military. You volunteered , and for many years, you helped oil and maintain the greatest killing machine in the history of mankind.

        Translation: I couldn’t figure out a mode of liability to charge Hostage with a single count involving a war crime or crime against humanity, even if my life depended upon it, so I’ll employ a false generalization and a circumlocution about “oiling the machinery”.

        How many Vietnamese civilians did the US Air Force kill? A million? … Dead Panamanians? Sure.

        Persons who have actually checked my comment archive know that I’ve noted on more than one occasion that it’s a waste of time to discuss individual war crimes, while overlooking the fact that planning and perpetrating a war of aggression is a crime, in and of itself, according to the principles of international law contained in Article 6 of the Nuremburg Charter. They also know that I don’t advocate the use of force to settle political differences.

        People who actually do search my comment archives for the term “Vietnam”, “Afghanistan” or any of the other countries you’ve mentioned, will find links to sources with some possible answers to your rhetorical questions – as well as a number of complaints I’ve authored about illegal US foreign policies and high ranking US officials who have publicly confessed or admitted responsibility for acts that amounted to war crimes and crimes against humanity in my opinion. You’ll even find citations to the Native American and Filipino genocides; “War Is A Racket”, by Major General Smedley Butler; and the history of the Banana Republics that authored the Montevideo Convention as an initial step to ending US aggression against the inhabitants of Latin America and the Caribbean.

        FYI, one of the reasons that I post anonymously is that I’ve publicly called for the end of the century-long illegal occupation of Gitmo and the prosecution of the responsible top-level US officials of the current and former administrations for torture and a long list of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Our government has a proven track record of harassing or even persecuting employees who speak out about those things. My comments do not mean that I believe the DoD has no legitimate missions or that everyone assigned to one of them is engaging in criminality as you’ve suggested. Likewise, I’ve called for reforms of the government of the State of Israel and the IDF as presently constituted and prosecution of those responsible for crimes reported by IDF service members . That doesn’t make me a hypocrite.

        And now, after your direct complicity in the death and destruction of millions of Third World peoples, most of whom were not a direct threat to the United States, you show up with a bunch of law books and obsessively prosecute Israel.

        Uhh…..yeah. Hypocrite.

        I didn’t just show-up with a bunch of law books. I’ve explained that the government itself provided me with continuing professional military training on international humanitarian law, aka the “Law Of Armed Conflict (LOAC)”. It was considered required career knowledge; assessed in promotion fitness exams; and was a prerequisite for many headquarters staff assignments. I won’t hold my breath waiting for you to explain my “complicity”.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        July 25, 2015, 3:05 am

        Does calling Hostage a hypocrite in any way excuse the actions taken by Israel?

      • can of worms
        can of worms
        July 25, 2015, 7:28 am

        “What about the US?” Well, at least that’s better than the whataboutery of, “What about Syria?” Yessirree, you’re doing better now.

        “What about the US?” Truly. That consumer lifestyle can’t last a blasted day without an empty dollar being sold around the world at gunpoint. Americans have to keep fighting those currency wars.

        Of course their own government won’t tell them all what big hypocrites they are! So, eh, you keep telling them yourself jack! Then people might just become less and less negative about buying Zion-junk.

        As for me, I don’t need Zio-junk. All I want is justice and power. But others… keep trying, jack… Ignite your sales drive! there’s plenty others and if they only knew they might be less averse to signing on the dotted line and closing the deal. And then you’d be ready to move forward to the next selection, segregation, deportation and grass mowing.

        Sell ‘em the Zio-junk on the moral authority of Dr. King and Mandela– but if that fails, let ‘em see their own hypocrisy in the mirror.

      • talknic
        talknic
        July 25, 2015, 7:57 am

        @ Jackjaw

        “I don’t have to check anything. “

        Of course you don’t, you’re a supporter of Israel’s crimes.

        “You’re retired…”

        There you have it pal. He’s no longer a part of it and has obviously had a change of heart, perhaps even why he retired.

        But I get your point … If Hostage had not served in the US military Israel would have long ago withdrawn from all non-Israeli territories. It would not be in breach of hundreds of UNSC resolutions affording it hundreds of opportunities to adhere to the laws the re-affirm and emphasize. It would not still be a rogue state, still killing, still dispossessing, still illegally acquiring territory, still endangering its citizens by KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY encouraging them the be in breach of Conventions adopted in order to protect them from the violent consequences occupying another people and their territory, still selling its own citizens land in non-Israeli territory, deceiving them. Right?

        Now. Did you actually have a valid point or anything to say that might go towards resolving the situation, like Israel should adhere to the law for example? If not, why don’t you just bugger off because you’re schtick is so pathetic you don’t even realize that your every post only shows people the kind of mindless schmuck the Zionist enterprise attracts.

      • catalan
        catalan
        July 25, 2015, 10:13 am

        “Does calling Hostage a hypocrite in any way excuse the actions taken by Israel? – ”
        It invalidates the proposed reactions. For war criminals in the U.S., the people here say, they should be brought to justice, but the average person should be left alone. Don’t boycott America for all the crap it did and does. Israelis, however, should all be boycotted, regardless of their degree of involvement.
        I would not worry though. America is an empty shell. Big army, but weak, spineless, whiny people. Typical bully.

      • annie
        annie
        July 25, 2015, 12:14 pm

        Don’t boycott America for all the crap it did and does

        that’s not a BDS position. they support boycotting all companies profiting off the occupation including american ones. in fact the divestment initiatives at universities across the country target many american companies — hewlett packard, caterpillar, etc…

        i totally support targeting all american companies profiting off the occupation. and i’d support any foreigner boycotting american businesses complicit in war crimes.

        For war criminals in the U.S., the people here say, they should be brought to justice, but the average person should be left alone.

        source? i’d like nothing more that a war crimes trial for cheney/bush and many others. i’ve never heard of anyone hear saying “the average person should be left alone”. soldiers carrying out war crimes should be prosecuted.

        “Does calling Hostage a hypocrite in any way excuse the actions taken by Israel? – ”

        It invalidates the proposed reactions. –

        not it doesn’t. only if the accusation had any validity. otherwise it just makes you sound like a fool. it sounds like you’re just making stuff up as you go along w/no forethought about your words and ideas.

        calling hasbara central – replace this bot please.

      • Kris
        Kris
        July 25, 2015, 10:39 am

        Jackdaw, you’re saying that everyone who has had a career in the U.S. military is responsible for war crimes?

        Hundreds of thousands of Americans die of hospital-acquired infections every year. Is every person who works in a hospital responsible for these deaths?

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        July 25, 2015, 12:51 pm

        @Hostage

        “.. one of the reasons that I post anonymously is that I’ve publicly called for the end of the century-long illegal occupation of Gitmo and the prosecution of the responsible top-level US officials ”

        Whoa. You’ve anonymously publicly called for the end of Gitmo and prosecutions?

        Isn’t that an oxymoron?

        “Likewise, I’ve called for reforms of the government of the State of Israel and the IDF as presently constituted and prosecution of those responsible for crimes reported by IDF service members . That doesn’t make me a hypocrite. ”

        My impression has been, from your many thousands of posts, some quite lengthly and detailed, that you minimally support prosecuting American war crimes but come out full guns against Israel’s war crimes.
        Now I know why. You’re scared that the United States government will push back, and possibly put your pension in jeopardy.

        Am I wrong?

      • annie
        annie
        July 25, 2015, 1:10 pm

        Whoa. You’ve anonymously publicly called for the end of Gitmo and prosecutions?

        jack, hostage likely meant “one of the reasons that I post [here] anonymously”. a public call for the end of gitmo and prosecutions doesn’t generally take place on blogs where people post anonymously.

        My impression has been….that you minimally support prosecuting American war crimes but come out full guns against Israel’s war crimes.

        hostage doesn’t hang out here all the time. there are other sites (law, legal debate) he contributes. sometimes people compartmentalize (challenging concept for some people but i recommend: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/compartmentalize) and discuss specific topics on specific websites. iow, just because you don’t read about it on a site with specific focus on israel/palestine, doesn’t mean that’s the extent of hostage’s expertise or interest. like most people here he probably does other things too and has other interests.

        i’m getting the distinct impression you’re attacking him personally since you’re not equipped to tackle his intellect or ideas? anyway, apply basic logic and an ounce of common sense.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 25, 2015, 2:46 pm

        a public call for the end of gitmo and prosecutions doesn’t generally just take place on blogs where people post anonymously.

        I’ve mentioned here in the past that I’ve personally filed Rome Statute Article 15 communications with the Office of the ICC Prosecutor. That of course was done using my real name. http://mondoweiss.net/2011/04/dugard-gaza-reports-principal-accusation-was-reckless-indiscriminate-use-of-force-in-densely-populated-areas#comment-305868

        But there are permanent legal restrictions on the exercise of some of the 1st amendment rights of military retirees under the terms of the UCMJ (10 US Code Chapter 47) and a legal obligation to avoid any actual or perceived conflict of interest in line with 18 US Code Part 1, Chapter 11. You can avoid doing that by not using your name, rank, and service when discussing policies or topics that others might misconstrue as being an official endorsement.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 25, 2015, 1:46 pm

        Whoa. You’ve anonymously publicly called for the end of Gitmo and prosecutions?

        Isn’t that an oxymoron?

        You obviously don’t believe that, since you keep yourself occupied with an effort to respond to my comments, both here and at Opinio Juris.

        You’re scared that the United States government will push back, and possibly put your pension in jeopardy.

        Am I wrong?

        Yes, you’re wrong. I’m not overly concerned about my financial security. My children are all grown, I own my home, cars, and other possessions and I’m debt free. I could live off of my savings for a couple of years. I turn down offers of employment or offers to do paid research on a regular basis. I spent about half my career working with people in the university and corporate research community; the national labs; NASA, NOAA; and the defense industry. When I retired from the military, I spent about a decade working as a systems integrator on factory automation, and instrument and control projects for several Fortune 500 clients.

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        July 26, 2015, 7:05 am

        @Hostage

        “I won’t hold my breath waiting for you to explain my “complicity” ”

        com·plic·i·ty

        kəmˈplisədē/ noun
        noun: complicity

        the state of being involved with others in an illegal activity or wrongdoing.

        synonyms: collusion, involvement, collaboration, connivance;

        You’ve already accused the US Government of illegalities and wrongdoings. These illegalities and wrongdoings are a given.

        Now what, if any, was your involvement in the illegalities and wrongdoings?

        I can’t explain your complicity, but you can.
        The ball is in your court.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 26, 2015, 10:32 am

        You’ve already accused the US Government of illegalities and wrongdoings. These illegalities and wrongdoings are a given.

        Correct. According to Article 1 of the Hague Convention the US government is required to instruct the members of its armed forces in the rules of International Humanitarian Law (IHL). https://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Article.xsp?action=openDocument&documentId=4DA62D0D49A7A5C4C12563CD00516566

        According to Article 3 it is “the government” that is responsible to pay compensation and be responsible for all acts committed by persons forming part of its armed forces.
        https://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Article.xsp?action=openDocument&documentId=144930FB7D15DBF6C12563CD00516582

        According to rule 1 attached to the Hague Convention the “laws, rights, and duties of war apply not only to armies, but also to militia and volunteer corps fulfilling the following conditions:
        1. To be commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;”
        https://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Article.xsp?action=openDocument&documentId=4A21D01103C0DCFBC12563CD005165FE

        None of the crimes you discussed occurred within my “chain of command”. Full stop.

        Now what, if any, was your involvement in the illegalities and wrongdoings? I can’t explain your complicity, but you can. The ball is in your court.

        None at all. If you check my comment archives you’ll find that I am repeating the official documentary records as well as personal accounts authored by the perpetrators themselves, and historical reports of eyewitnesses compiled by reliable sources. If you’ve been trained in IHL, you do not have to be in Fallujah Iraq or the Gaza Strip to know war crimes and crimes against humanity when you see them being perpetrated on camera against civilians, who are not in the fight, for no legitimate military objective, e.g. https://youtu.be/poUzs6UOqjU

        I didn’t have any role or involvement in any war crimes or crimes against humanity and neither did any of my subordinates. The Department of Defense has a multitude of very legitimate missions that require trained professionals who are familiar with international humanitarian law and who are willing to accept regular military discipline and comply with a professional legal code of conduct.

        Part of that discipline and legal code is an obligation not to obey unlawful orders (see Little v Barrame). War crimes and crimes against humanity are not only a dereliction of a legal duty by the perpetrator, they are also a dereliction on the part of anyone with knowledge of them who fails to report them or speak out about grave breaches of IHL when they “are committed or ordered to be committed” in order to assist in fulfilling the government’s obligation to bring those responsible before our courts or to extradite them for prosecution by others. See Article 146 of the Fourth Geneva Convention and stop “blaming the messenger” for reporting about US and Israeli violations of the international professional and criminal codes that I’ve sworn to uphold: https://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/9ac284404d38ed2bc1256311002afd89/6f96ee4c7d1e72cac12563cd0051c63a

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        July 26, 2015, 7:22 am

        Jackdaw: I can’t explain your complicity….
        ———————-

        You accuse someone of “direct complicity in the death and destruction of millions of Third World peoples , yet can’t provide a word of explanation as to how that person is complicit? That’s rich.

      • talknic
        talknic
        July 26, 2015, 9:48 am

        HIJACK ALERT

        Slack Jaw tries to make Hostage the topic.

        Typical Hasbarrista tactic

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 26, 2015, 10:03 am

        Yep, Jack is the crazy drunk you give a ride home. All of a sudden he wakes from his stupor, grabs the wheel and steers you thru the front of another bar.

    • HarryLaw
      HarryLaw
      July 17, 2015, 5:09 pm

      In the Lebanon war in 2006 Gadi Eizenkot said “that what happened in the Dahiya quarter of Beirut in 2006 would, “happen in every village from which shots were fired in the direction of Israel. We will wield disproportionate power against [them] and cause immense damage and destruction. From our perspective, these are military bases. This isn’t a suggestion. It’s a plan that has already been authorized. Harming the population is the only means of restraining Nasrallah.” Yes, and the fact that the Israeli High command had already accused the Turkish group IHH on board the Mavi Marmara as being terrorist supporters and in league with Hamas.
      So the calculation could have been, as General Eizenkot prescribed in Lebanon with full authorization. Deliberately harm the civilians as the only means of deterring other flotillas.

      • just
        just
        July 17, 2015, 5:21 pm

        HarryLaw~ it’s pretty evident from the howling and bellowing from the PM and FM that they stand by their crimes:

        “Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu slammed the ICC, calling it hypocritical. “Israel Defense Forces soldiers acted in self defense when they stopped an attempt to break the naval blockade, which was implemented in keeping with international law as determined by a committee appointed by the UN Secretary General, a committee headed by a Supreme Court justice and international observers,” he said.

        “At a time when in Syria Assad is butchering multitudes of his people, and in Iran hundreds are being executed, and in Gaza Hamas uses children as human shields, the court chooses to occupy itself with Israel out of cynical, political considerations. In the face of this hypocrisy, our soldiers will continue to safeguard us and we will protect them in the international arena.

        Israel’s Foreign Ministry issued a furious condemnation of the court’s decision.

        “This is an incident in which Israel acted in self-defense and in accordance with international law,” it said in a statement. “The incident was investigated by a commission headed by an Israeli Supreme Court justice that included the participation of international observers, and also by a commission set up by the UN secretary-general, both of which confirmed this.

        “It’s not clear why the court insists on devoting its resources to dealing excessively with complaints that stem from cynical political motives instead of dealing with what it was established for – the investigation of mass atrocities,” the statement continued. “Israel expects the prosecutor’s decision to remain as it is.””

        http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.666477?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

        Just saying… I still don’t see how or why they are claiming “self- defense”.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 17, 2015, 5:52 pm

        In response to Just:
        Thanks for the quotes. Obvious they both got the same script in the same format as always.
        Easy enough to get them off their game plan and back on their heels.
        Love that so many Israeli’s can step on less and less soil without arrest.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        July 17, 2015, 6:27 pm

        Just saying… I still don’t see how or why they are claiming “self- defense”

        Because

        The boundaries of Zionist aspiration include southern Lebanon, southern Syria, today’s Jordan, all of Cis-Jordan and the Sinai…

        unless the official Zionist program has been updated by new additions.
        That was already in 1937. Who knows, by now the borders of their goddam Eretz may have reached Denmark, as Froggy was saying.

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        July 18, 2015, 2:11 am

        Self defense, as in the ‘humanitarian aid workers’ had kidnapped two of the IDF commandos and stabbed one in the belly with a knife.

        Live fire, directed from the ship, at the commandos didn’t help either.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 18, 2015, 9:55 am

        BS.
        The suspected live fire came from the helicopter. The commando speedboat might have thought it came from the ship. The only other live fire was from the IDF executing innocent civilians.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 18, 2015, 6:15 pm

        BS. The suspected live fire came from the helicopter. The commando speedboat might have thought it came from the ship. The only other live fire was from the IDF executing innocent civilians.

        No, the after action report of the most elite commando unit in the IDF complained that one of the unarmed passengers managed to wrestle a 9mm handgun away from one of the IDF trained killers who had brought it aboard. The passenger allegedly managed to turn the weapon on his IDF attackers before being killed. Even if the report is true, some would say that he was exercising an unqualified legal right of self-defense under the circumstances.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 18, 2015, 11:19 am

        Self defense, as in the ‘humanitarian aid workers’ had kidnapped two of the IDF commandos and stabbed one in the belly with a knife.

        Live fire, directed from the ship, at the commandos didn’t help either.

        There is no right of self-defense for the armed forces of another state, who violate the jus cogens prohibition of aggression contained in Article 2(4) of the UN Charter, in order to attack a vessel flagged by any other State on the high seas. The Permanent Court of International Justice ruled in S.S. Lotus (France v Turkey), 1928 PCIJ Series A, No. 10. that the first and foremost restriction imposed by international law upon a State is that, failing the existence of a permissive rule to the contrary, it may not exercise its power in any form on the territory of another State. “Kidnapping” is a very inappropriate legal term of art. The members of the Israeli armed forces who attacked the flotilla were acting without any UN Chapter VII sanction. Some would argue that actually triggered the victim’s right of self defense, i.e. to use lethal force if necessary or to attempt to subdue them and take them prisoner.

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        July 18, 2015, 11:52 am

        @Hostage

        I’ve been meaning to ask you.
        Why have so many Kansas Jews joined ‘Jews for Jesus’?

      • annie
        annie
        July 18, 2015, 12:19 pm

        jack, are there a disproportionate number of jews for jesus in kansas? and if there are, were they from there or is there a center there they gravitate to from other places?

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 18, 2015, 6:25 pm

        @Hostage I’ve been meaning to ask you. Why have so many Kansas Jews joined ‘Jews for Jesus’?

        I’m not familiar with any great number of Jews that have done so. I would guess that it’s either because they are true believers or because they have an ulterior plan to eventually sully his reputation and that of the organization through their own misconduct.

      • talknic
        talknic
        July 21, 2015, 1:16 pm

        @ Jackdaw //“If you’re trying to rattle anyone here with arrogant Zionist smugness”//

        “No, no. That’s the farthest thing from my mind..”

        Then goes on to prove himself a liar

        Israel has never legally acquired an inch of territory beyond what it proclaimed to the world in it’s plea for recognition, effective 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time). http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf

        HUNDREDS of thousands of Israelis live in territory yet to be legally acquired by Israel, by annexation under an agreement. In fact 1/3rd of the territory Israel claims as its own http://wp.me/pDB7k-Xk#googlemap simply ain’t yet Israeli

        WTF do you thing Israel spends so much time, effort and money maintaining the US veto vote? Faced with the legal consequences of over six decades of creating illegal facts on the ground, Israel would go broke. All those mega millionaires and their investment money would scoot. No more exploiting other folks resources. A million or more Israelis suddenly having to face the truth, the Zionist Movement‘s state has been shafting them all their lives

        “No rush to make up your mind. Israel is still going to be here for a few years anyway”

        Will it still be in other folks territories in breach of the UN Charter, International Law and acting against the basic tenets of Judaism?

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        July 24, 2015, 7:52 am

        @Hostage

        “Yes. But like the Westboro Baptist Church, they were indigenous, not foreign invaders. ”

        My roots in Eretz Yisroel go back to the early 19th century.
        Am I indigenous too?

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 24, 2015, 10:09 am

        My roots in Eretz Yisroel go back to the early 19th century.
        Am I indigenous too?

        That sounds like a deliberately vague claim. I could care less what you consider to be “Eretz Yisroel” and don’t count anything beyond the 1948 partition lines to necessarily be included in Medinat Yisrael just yet.

        As I’ve written here many times in the past, the government’s refusal to honor its legal obligations and commitments to protect the fundamental human rights of the Arabs subject to its jurisdiction and allow refugees to return to access their property or inheritances after each round of hostilities has cast doubt on the validity of its claim to any territory at all. If you were born and raised in Israel, then you are indigenous. I’m not, and I find the idea of being invited to tour a land that’s still off-limits to the refugees that the Zionists have managed to drive off completely repugnant.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 24, 2015, 10:31 am

        Right on, man!

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        July 24, 2015, 4:19 pm

        @Hostage

        “That sounds like a deliberately vague claim. ”

        I’ll fine tune it for you.

        My ancestors migrated to Jerusalem in 1812.
        Am I indigenous?

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 24, 2015, 4:48 pm

        I’ll fine tune it for you.

        My ancestors migrated to Jerusalem in 1812.
        Am I indigenous?

        If you still have to ask, after what I already said, I’ll just assume you weren’t born in the territory allocated for Jewish autonomy.

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        July 24, 2015, 4:30 pm

        @ Hostage

        ” I find the idea of being invited to tour a land that’s still off-limits to the refugees that the Zionists have managed to drive off completely repugnant.”

        What I find repugnant is the moral hypocrisy of someone whose led the good life in a country that was born out of the extermination of the indigenous inhabitants, and bred on the chattel slavery of tens of millions of African slaves.

        Really. What do you see in the mirror?

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 24, 2015, 4:56 pm

        I’ll tell you what I see.
        A diverting, potty-hopping Jackdaw trying to sell real estate to ignorant migrants, at the expense of the native people. Jack thinks because he may have a 200 year old root in Palestine, he has a right to impose his will today.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 24, 2015, 5:03 pm

        What I find repugnant is the moral hypocrisy of someone whose led the good life in a country that was born out of the extermination of the indigenous inhabitants, and bred on the chattel slavery of tens of millions of African slaves.

        I believe if you check the archives here, you’ll find that I have been critical of the US government and the other great powers for employing Israel as a lame-assed excuse to refuse to attend the Durbin Conferences, where restitution of state owned lands and reparations for those and other western crimes were on the agenda.

        While I think that we still do have de facto discrimination in the USA, unlike Israel, we do not deny those groups citizenship or equal protection under the law as a matter of official state policy.

        Really. What do you see in the mirror?

        Someone who doesn’t buy your shopworn propaganda talking points.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        July 24, 2015, 5:11 pm

        Jackdaw,

        If some ancestors of yours have been Palestinians, having immigrated in 1812, all you have to do is take your personal documentation and your ancestral Palestinian papers (Ottoman or Mandate), or reference to it, to the future government of liberated Palestine and establish your legitimacy.
        Calling it Eretz or YisrOel or such won’t be very helpful.

      • talknic
        talknic
        July 24, 2015, 6:25 pm

        Poor Jackdaw ///” I find the idea of being invited to tour a land that’s still off-limits to the refugees that the Zionists have managed to drive off completely repugnant.”///

        “What I find repugnant is the moral hypocrisy of someone whose led the good life in a country that was born out of the extermination of the indigenous inhabitants, and bred on the chattel slavery of tens of millions of African slaves”

        Uh huh. Problem …. Israel is still pursuing its expansionist policies, still disenfranchising, still dispossessing, still hasn’t written a constitution, still hasn’t had a legally elected government under that constitution, still selling non-Israeli land in non-Israeli territories to gullible (and stupidly willing) Israelis, still endangering its citizens by knowingly encouraging them to illegally settle in non-Israeli territories under occupation, all of which are criminal and all of which you seem to approve.

        So what do you see in a mirror pal? Or are you too cretinous to recognize it

    • Jackdaw
      Jackdaw
      July 19, 2015, 5:36 am

      @Hostage

      “Some would argue that actually triggered the victim’s right of self defense”

      Yeah. And some would be pissing into the wind.

      BTW.
      What part of ‘International Armed Conflict’ don’t you get?

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 19, 2015, 10:09 am

        Yeah. And some would be pissing into the wind.

        BTW.
        What part of ‘International Armed Conflict’ don’t you get?

        What part of the UN Convention on the Law of the Seas and the UN Charter don’t you get? There’s no internationally protected right to engage in armed conflict on the High Seas in either one. The high seas belong to mankind and the international community of states have reserved them for peaceful purposes only.

        After Nuremberg, it was decided that the only part of of an armed conflict that anyone has to accept will just have to fit through the tiny keyhole in Articles 2(4) and Article 51 of the UN Charter:

        All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.

        Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security.

        http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/unchart.htm#art51

        Israel was not, and has not ever been attacked by Comoros, Cambodia, or Greece. So it had no right to attack commercial ships under their maritime jurisdiction while they were operating on the High Seas or anywhere else. Full Stop. Israel’s right to impede the delivery of relief consignments of food, fuel, and medical assistance was terminated by the UN Security when it acted to maintain peace and security by adopting resolution 1860 in 2009 calling for an immediate cease fire, withdrawal, and unimpeded flow into Gaza of relief consignments. http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=S/Res/1860%20%282009%29

        Nobody is making a special case out of Israel. Its Prime Minister declared the blockade of the Straits of Tiran “illegal” and an affront to the entire international maritime community. See the page on the telegram from Israeli PM Eshkol to President Johnson That incident led to the subsequent inclusion of blockades in the list of the constituent acts of the UN and ICC Definition of the Crime of Aggression.

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        July 19, 2015, 11:31 am

        @Hostage

        “So it had no right to attack commercial ships under their maritime jurisdiction while they were operating on the High Seas or anywhere else.”

        The ship wasn’t attacked.
        All the other ships in the Freedom Flotilla followed the directives of the Israeli Navy and docked in Ashdod Port, where their cargo would be inspected and sent on to Gaza.

        The Captain of the Mavi Marmara told the IHH Turks to stand down, not to resort to violence, to turn in their weapons. They refused, and they attacked the paint ball shooting commandos with iron bars, knives and guns.

        A senior member of the Mavi Marmara crew said that forty IHH activists took control of the Mavi Marmara, cordoned off sections, and dictated the rest of the passengers’ movements.

        Sounds like open mutiny to me

      • annie
        annie
        July 19, 2015, 12:59 pm

        All the other ships in the Freedom Flotilla followed the directives of the Israeli Navy and docked in Ashdod Port, where their cargo would be inspected and sent on to Gaza.

        source?

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Freedom_Flotilla#cite_note-haaretzdeport-7

        Israel proposed inspecting the cargo at the Port of Ashdod and then delivering non-blockaded goods through land crossings, but this proposal was turned down.[6] Israeli forces then raided and seized the Gaza-bound ships in international waters of the Mediterranean Sea.[7]

        The ship wasn’t attacked.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Mavi_Marmara

        Reports from journalists on the ship and from the UN report on the incident concluded that the Israeli military opened fire with live rounds before boarding the ship.[17]

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 19, 2015, 1:02 pm

        The ship wasn’t attacked.
        All the other ships in the Freedom Flotilla followed the directives of the Israeli Navy and docked in Ashdod Port, where their cargo would be inspected and sent on to Gaza.

        You must be a pretty poor trial lawyer if you think the armed commandos were somehow “kidnapped,” but that the passengers and crews of the ships diverted to Ashdod against their will after the vessels were commandeered at gunpoint through the use of deadly force were not legally assaulted and kidnapped.

        Once again, the commandos were violating the maritime jurisdiction of the other sovereign states on the high seas, not vice versa. They committed acts for which individual criminal responsibility arises under both international and national laws and for which the defense of obeying unlawful superior orders is not allowed.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 19, 2015, 2:08 pm

        All the other ships in the Freedom Flotilla followed the directives of the Israeli Navy … The Captain of the Mavi Marmara told the IHH Turks to stand down, not to resort to violence, to turn in their weapons. They refused, and they attacked the paint ball shooting commandos with iron bars, knives and guns. … Sounds like open mutiny to me

        It sounds like a difference of opinion regarding a question of material facts to me. That usually means someone (hint hint) needs to investigate the reports of the various witnesses. The Court and the Palmer Inquiry both noted that there were widespread injuries among the passengers of the other ships. You being a trial lawyer and all ought to be asking why that was necessary if they indeed followed the directives of the Israeli Navy?

        I myself would ask the Captain if he told the passengers to stand down before or after the shooting started and if he was issuing those orders under duress? The Court noted in its decision that there were reports that the commandos fired their weapons from the helicopter before they boarded the vessel. The victims would have been entitled to ignore the Captain and defend themselves and others if there was a clear danger to their lives. There’s nothing illegal about trying to repel people who are already using deadly force against you to keep them from boarding and attacking even more victims below deck . Even the Palmer Inquiry report questioned the execution style methods that other passengers witnessed, i.e. “Mr. Doğan’s motionless, wounded body was kicked and shot upon, execution-style by two Israeli soldiers.” If that’s the treatment the Israeli Navy was dispensing to kids who were hors de combat in front of other witness with cameras, then it just might not have seemed too wise at that moment to stand down in the middle of an apparent and on-going massacre.

        As the Judges pointed out, the truth or falsity of these contradictory reports necessitates an investigation, and if needed cross-examination and a final determination made in the Trial and Appeals Chambers by the Judges acting as the triers of facts and the applicable laws. You know, the way a real criminal investigation and trial are supposed to work. If there’s a reasonable doubt, then the ICC rules of procedure and evidence will afford the defendants all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 19, 2015, 11:51 am

        “What part of the UN Convention on the Law of the Seas and the UN Charter don’t you get?”

        Hostage, really, do you think it makes any difference if a pirate, a freebooter, understands the Law of the Seas?

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 19, 2015, 1:14 pm

        He just puts on his Super-Wife Beater outfit, raises his voice and threatens you with his superior argument.

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        July 20, 2015, 12:31 pm

        @Hostage

        “Once again, the commandos were violating the maritime jurisdiction of the other sovereign states on the high seas, not vice versa. They committed acts for which individual criminal responsibility arises under both international and national laws.. ”

        Yeah, Hostage. Tell us more about ‘maritime law’. It’s a bloody joke.

        http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/murder-at-sea-captured-on-video-but-killers-go-free/ar-AAdepwo

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 20, 2015, 4:52 pm

        Yeah, Hostage. Tell us more about ‘maritime law’. It’s a bloody joke.

        Okay. The article you linked to doesn’t say that maritime law is a joke, it implies that international maritime law enforcement is nearly non-existent. Murder is still a crime and the article claims that only about 1 percent of cases get prosecuted.

        But cheer-up, the ICC was founded to help put an end to impunity and the Flotilla murders are one step closer to an investigation. Let’s review:

        (1) I said that the commandos violated the maritime jurisdiction of the sovereign state of Comoros – an ICC member state.
        (2) It didn’t go unreported.
        (3) One of the preconditions for the exercise of the ICC’s jurisdiction is that a crime has been committed on the territory or territorial waters of a member state, or on board a vessel or aircraft registered to that state.
        (4) In this case, the majority of the Pre-Trial Chamber Judges agrees that it was no bloody joke.

        I take it that’s what pisses you off, and not the unsolved murders in the story you linked to.

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        July 20, 2015, 1:16 pm

        @Hostage

        Convention on the High Seas
        Done at Geneva on 29 April 1958

        Article 5

        1. Each State shall fix the conditions for the grant of its nationality to ships, for the registration of ships in
        its territory, and for the right to fly its flag. Ships have the nationality of the State whose flag they are entitled to
        fly. There must exist a genuine link between the State and the ship; in particular, the State must effectively
        exercise its jurisdiction and control in administrative, technical and social matters over ships flying its flag..

        Hostage, your old seafarer. Can you explain to us, what was the genuine link between the Mavi Marmara and the Comoros?
        None that I can discern.

        Did the Comoros effectively exercise its jurisdiction and control in administrative, technical and social matters over ships flying its flag? I’d say not.

        And speaking of the Comoros

        “Comoros is a source country for children subjected to forced labor and, reportedly, sex trafficking; Comoran children are forced to labor within the country in domestic service, roadside and street vending, baking, fishing, and agriculture; some Comoran students at Koranic schools are exploited for forced agricultural or domestic labor, sometimes being subjected to physical and sexual abuse; Comoros may be particularly vulnerable to transnational trafficking because of inadequate border controls, government corruption, and the presence of criminal networks and may be a destination for the forced labor of Malagasy and East African women”

        https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/print_2196.html

        Tut tut.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 20, 2015, 6:21 pm

        @ Jackdaw

        I always love how your typical Zionist simpleton’s brain works. You start out with a groundless accusation about the ships registration and employ an enormous logical fallacy to conclude that Article 5 of the Convention on the High Seas contains a hidden death warrant.

        Your questions about the registration of the Mavi Marmara have already been asked and answered in the State Referral and the Prosecutors Decision Not to Proceed, i.e. the registration was valid. FYI, Comoros, like 167 other countries, is a state party to the UN Convention on the Law of the Seas. It provides a mechanism for dispute resolution that doesn’t include commandos.

        I don’t see how you managed to read all the way to Article 5 without noticing that Israel’s blockade of Gaza violates the first 4 articles of the 1958 Geneva Convention on the High Seas. Here’s the text of the three most relevant ones:
        Article 1
        The term “high seas” means all parts of the sea that are not included in the territorial sea or in the internal waters of a State.
        Article 2
        The high seas being open to all nations, no State may validly purport to subject any part of them to its sovereignty. Freedom of the high seas is exercised under the conditions laid down by these articles and by the other rules of international law. It comprises, inter alia, both for coastal and non-coastal States:
        (1) Freedom of navigation;
        (2) Freedom of fishing;
        (3) Freedom to lay submarine cables and pipelines;
        (4) Freedom to fly over the high seas.
        These freedoms, and others which are recognized by the general principles of international law, shall be exercised by all States with reasonable regard to the interests of other States in their exercise of the freedom of the high seas.

        Article 4
        Every State, whether coastal or not, has the right to sail ships under its flag on the high seas.
        http://www.gc.noaa.gov/documents/8_1_1958_high_seas.pdf

      • lysias
        lysias
        July 20, 2015, 5:06 pm

        Yeah, Hostage. Tell us more about ‘maritime law’. It’s a bloody joke.

        Somebody with that attitude is justly called a scofflaw.

        Are you going to add: “Come and get me, copper”?

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        July 20, 2015, 6:20 pm

        @Hostage

        “I take it that’s what pisses you off, and not the unsolved murders in the story you linked to”

        You’ve mistaken me being pissed off with my impotent rage.

        Impotent rage because maritime law and international law don’t really work. Impotent rage because an incompetent and wasteful ICC has left it’s legal moorings, and become political. Rage that the hypocrites in the EU don’t prosecute Israel for her war crimes.

        If…I…could…only…..get… this damn thing to work!!

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 21, 2015, 6:54 am

        You’ve mistaken me being pissed off with my impotent rage. ,,, Rage that the hypocrites in the EU don’t prosecute Israel for her war crimes.

        If…I…could…only…..get… this damn thing to work!!

        Like many Americans you seem to be oblivious to the geographical facts, i.e. that the ICC is located in an EU country and Comoros just won an appeal on its referral there.

        Likewise France, Germany, the UK, Italy, and Spain are members of EU who have put their citizens and businesses on notice about the possibility of prosecutions in connection with the settlements:
        France warns citizens: Don’t invest in Israeli settlements, Golan Heights
        France’s Foreign Ministry says West Bank settlements, East Jerusalem and Golan Heights are built on occupied land, which is illegal according to international law

        The French government issued a warning to its citizens not to engage in financial activity or investments in the Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem or the Golan Heights. The French Foreign Ministry wrote in its warning that the settlements are illegal according to international law, and so doing business with them involves legal risks.

        A French diplomat said that the warning is part of a joint act by the five largest countries in the European Union — Germany, the United Kingdom, France, Italy and Spain. The United Kingdom and Germany issued such warnings several months ago, and now, in light of the failure of the talks between Israel and the Palestinians and the European protests over the recent wave of construction in the settlements, three more countries joined them. Italy and Spain are expected to publish similar warnings over the next several days. http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.601148

        If you’re trying to rattle anyone here with arrogant Zionist smugness, then you’ll have to step your game up a notch. We’ve grown accustomed to dealing with major league Hasbara Central ass hats.

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        July 21, 2015, 10:01 am

        “If you’re trying to rattle anyone here with arrogant Zionist smugness.

        No, no. That’s the farthest thing from my mind.

        In fact, I’m inviting you to visit Israel.
        I’d be happy to show you around. Not to the settlements, where only 6% of Israelis live, but to the real Israel.

        You can see everyday Israeli rudeness, atrocious driving habits, rough mercantile practice.
        You’ll see lots of people waiting around bus stops. Urban traffic, or just ordinary folk visiting their family or out for night out on the town.

        We can visit depopulated Arab villages, ancient tombs, kibbutzim. Whatever you fancy.

        Yes, we’ll have to mind the poisonous spiders and scorpions, not to mention the deadly Palestine Viper, but hey, that’s Israel too!

        Castles, biblical sites, battlefields ancient and new. Lots of battlefields.
        Or, if you even want to walk the Jesus Trail, I’m down for it.

        I mean, you gotta be curious. Right?

        No rush to make up your mind. Israel is still going to be here for a few years anyway.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 21, 2015, 12:00 pm

        You are going to have to present a more mature tour before anyone here will put their money down. I want Palestinians to show me “their” Israel, too.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 22, 2015, 8:33 am

        No, no. That’s the farthest thing from my mind.

        In fact, I’m inviting you to visit Israel.
        I’d be happy to show you around. Not to the settlements, where only 6% of Israelis live, but to the real Israel.

        No thanks, as I’ve mentioned here in the past, I’ve had the pleasure of visits to Lebanon and the Sinai back in the Carter and Reagan eras when they were “disputed territories” that the National Religious Lunatics in the Herut/La’am, Telem, and Tehiya parties were still claiming as part of “the real Israel” (according to our daily intelligence summaries). Lebanon was supposedly the lawful inheritance of the Tribe of Asher and Beirut was Hebraized as Be’erot (wells). A large group of about 50 American Rabbis were paraded around the hills surrounding the city for propaganda purposes and, on cue, they declared that the invasion was “Judaically” a just and obligatory war. Government Ministers, like Yuval Ne’eman, were making headlines all over the region by claiming that the invasion was a continuation of the war for the independence of the whole land of Israel.

        I mean, you gotta be curious. Right?

        No, if I only get three wishes, I’m not wasting any of them on a trip to the Zionist Disneyland. IMHO, “Judaically speaking”, it is still much better to be exiled from the Jewish State with a clean conscience than it will ever be to live there at the expense of innocent victims of our greed and hatefulness.

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        July 21, 2015, 12:42 pm

        @Cigar

        Wait. Let me guess. You haven’t been here either.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 21, 2015, 7:20 pm

        Okay, Jack: Here?
        I don’t see my comment.
        Are you asking if I’ve been to USA, Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, etc?
        First generation USA. First trip and semester in I/P and rest of year in other M.E. states in 1968. Yep, I’m a geezer.
        I hope you aren’t making an argument somewhere, that a visit makes one all that more informed, than a normal tourist. It all depends on how deep you go, in how many places and with how many different voices…and how many times.

      • Bumblebye
        Bumblebye
        July 21, 2015, 2:11 pm

        @Carrion eater
        only 6% of Israelis live in shtetlments?! Somewhere between 650,000 and 750,000 living over the Green Line? Since when did Israel have a population north of 11 million?

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw
        July 22, 2015, 1:52 pm

        @Hostage

        “National Religious Lunatics in the Herut/La’am, Telem, and Tehiya parties were still claiming as part of “the real Israel ”

        And did you encounter any other religious lunatics? Say… on the Muslim side?

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 23, 2015, 11:56 am

        And did you encounter any other religious lunatics? Say… on the Muslim side?

        Yes. But like the Westboro Baptist Church, they were indigenous, not foreign invaders.

  4. Abu Malia
    Abu Malia
    July 17, 2015, 4:16 pm

    WOW! great news and brilliant reporting annie. Pretty strong statement from the Judges in calling it a “material error” which, if I’m not mistaken means a type of (material) error that if corrected changes the final decision or outcome – and in this case changes it to prosecutable.

    On a side note ( a little belated but), I wanted to congratulate you on your radio interview ( few weeks back) with the great Scott Horton – my favorite radio guy hands down. Beautiful voice you have to go with your beautiful soul. Phil’s done great too btw on the Scott Horton Show.

    Now, who was that one dissenting judge?

    • annie
      annie
      July 17, 2015, 5:36 pm

      thank you abu malia. not that brilliant, but i hope people are provided with enough info to have a basic understanding. the dissenting judge was Judge Kovacs (open the links). i would strongly urge everyone to open the ruling and read it. it’s really harsh and the end is fabulous. http://www.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/doc/doc2015869.pdf

      if i had a better grasp of legalese i could write more about it. i understand more than i can write .. read the part about her not following her own standards for gravity. scroll to the base.

      glad you liked the radio show. ;) it caught me somewhat by surprise — he just tweeted and said wanna be on our radio show in 30 min? i said ..ok! it was fun actually except i did remember the details of the amount of billions and it was right there in the top of my article. oh well.

    • Hostage
      Hostage
      July 18, 2015, 1:20 am

      the Prosecutor did not in fact apply the principle she announced, and did take into account certain facts “outside of the Court’s jurisdiction” for the purposes of her analysis

      There is a distinction between “jurisdiction” and “applicable law”. The authors of the draft ICC Statute commented that it seemed appropriate to place the paragraph on “Applicable Law” in the section of the Statute dealing with the primary function of the Court, the exercise of jurisdiction through a trial chamber. “But the article applies in relation to all actions taken by the court at any stage.” See page 27 link to legal.un.org

      So while the Court doesn’t exercise jurisdiction over the crime of aggression (yet), it still has to apply the law during the preliminary analysis phase regarding the blockade of Gaza.

      Now, who was that one dissenting judge?

      Judge Peter Kovacs. He’s a real fan of the idea that blockades are perfectly legal in accordance with the San Remo Manual, despite the fact that the experts who worked on it only came from 28 countries and many of them worked in a personal capacity and did not represent any state government at all. It was a deliberate attempt to codify updated customary rules of naval warfare, but it was never incorporated in a convention or ratified. Even if it does represent rules of customary law, it cannot supersede the “jus cogens,” peremptory norm reflected in the prohibition of force or aggression against the political independence or territorial integrity of any state contained in Article 2(4) of the UN Charter. The 2010 ICC Review Conference held at Kampala Uganda after the flotilla raid adopted the General Assembly’s customary definition of the crime of aggression, which explicitly includes any blockade or military occupation in violation of the UN Charter as a constituent act of the crime of aggression.

      The fact that Netanyahu is still claiming that the ICC has no jurisdiction because Palestine is not a “state” is sort of revealing. Denial of self-determination is a relevant factor or element of the offense in the customary definition of both the crimes of apartheid and aggression. For example, “The Travaux Préparatoires of the Crime of Aggression” edited by Stefan Barriga and Claus Kreß Cambridge University Press, 2012 explained that: “there was a need to include somewhere in the Rome Statute definition a reference to GA Resolution 3314 as a whole, in order to reflect the strong desire expressed by many delegations to respect the integrity of that resolution. The definition of the act of aggression would therefore have to be read in conjunction with other parts of the General Assembly resolution that address relevant issues, such as statehood (article l) another peremptory norm “self-determination” (article 7), and the principle that those provisions of the resolution defining aggression are interrelated and must be read together (article 8). … So the explanatory note to article 1 of GA Resolution 3314 would therefore have to be taken into account. It reads: ‘In this Definition the term State: (a) Is used without prejudice to questions of recognition or to whether a State is a member of the United Nations; (b) Includes the concept of a “group of States” where appropriate.”

      So the right of self-determination is a decisive factor in making any decision regarding the meaning of the term “state” according to relevant practice of the General Assembly and the ICC Assembly of State Parties. The UN General Assembly has always acknowledged that Palestinian statehood was declared in “the exercise of an inalienable right”, and as such, the option of statehood is a matter of self-determination that is not subject to any veto (by the Secretary General, The ICC Prosecutor, the Security Council, et al) or to the current peace process. See the text of A/RES/55/87, 21 February 2001. http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/RES/55/87

      • annie
        annie
        July 18, 2015, 1:41 am

        thank you hostage… in my next life maybe i’ll be able to sing like aretha and think like you ;)

  5. Abu Malia
    Abu Malia
    July 17, 2015, 9:12 pm

    Thank you annie.

  6. Kay24
    Kay24
    July 18, 2015, 1:19 am

    Thank you for this interesting article Annie. Will the victims of the Mavi Maara finally get justice?
    I hope so. Israel got away with piracy and murder over international waters, lied to the world, doctored tapes, and behaved like bandits using weapons on unarmed civilians. They deserve to be hauled to an international court of justice and held accountable. It seems the US is allowing the international community to go ahead and hold Israel responsible for it’s crimes.
    About time too.

    • Hostage
      Hostage
      July 18, 2015, 1:38 am

      It seems the US is allowing the international community to go ahead and hold Israel responsible for it’s crimes. About time too.

      After Congress speech scandal, Netanyahu is toast at White House
      As long as Obama is in office, he has no intention of meeting Netanyahu. If reelected, the Israeli PM may find himself abandoned and defenseless in the international arena.

      Another man to whom Netanyahu is “toast,” at least temporarily, is Secretary of State John Kerry. In the last two years Kerry was the main defender of Netanyahu’s government in the world and Netanyahu hastened to call him for help every time he was entangled by his government’s policy.

      When the European Union advanced sanctions against the settlements, Kerry tried to block them; when Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas went to the UN Security Council, Kerry pressured state leaders not to support the move. When the Palestinians turned to the International Criminal Court at The Hague, Kerry made 50 phone calls, to the court’s prosecutor and to foreign ministers across the globe, in an effort to block the move.

      Kerry was subjected to quite a few insults from Netanyahu and his ministers, mainly for his efforts to advance the peace process with the Palestinians. Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon called him “messianic” and “obsessive,” Habayit Hayehudi head Naftali Bennett said he was anti-Semitic and Likud minister Gilad Erdan said he was endangering Israel in his talks with Iran, and had no understanding of the goings on in the region.

      But the more attacks the U.S. state secretary was subjected to, the harder he tried not to burn the last bridge with Netanyahu. Kerry spoke with him on the phone a few times a week and saw him almost every chance he had. However, Netanyahu’s maneuver over the Congress speech was the last straw for Kerry.

      He felt personally affronted. His announcement that he wouldn’t meet Netanayhu in Washington was perhaps even more significant than the president’s. For Obama, such a move was almost self-evident. With Kerry it reflected a real rupture. —

      http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:lx5xl6qeqnMJ:www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.639832+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

      • annie
        annie
        July 18, 2015, 2:23 am

        that is a fantastic photo of obama at your link hostage. i don’t know if i’ve ever seen him so… steel. just awesome. he played his cards well in the following months, a cool hand luke , while seething. no one can blame obama for netanyahu’s predicament today.

        Senior Israeli and American officials say the White House is seething with anger against Netanyahu. Following the trick he concocted with Republican leaders in Congress, Netanyahu is said to be “toast” as far as Obama is concerned.

        and fried him he did. to a crisp. netanyahu is no match for obama. i will never forget that first meeting at the WH. netanyahu demanded iran come first. obama said — palestine. so, after all that diplomacy wasted in the ‘negotiations’ obama slammed netanyahu on iran. and he’s still got 17 months left to drive a nail in netanyahu’s political coffin. let’s hope obama takes the back channel to free palestine. it’s not too late. he’s still got the UN veto to use or not to use. he owes netanyahu nothing but grief. i hope he uses that time well, payback time.

        The Americans are not expected to cut back defense assistance to Israel, at least not at first. Obama is expected to maintain the security and intelligence coordination as if there is no Netanyahu, and keep his distance from Netanyahu as if there is no security and intelligence coordination.

        This could take place when the Palestinians make another bid for statehood in an approach to the UN Security Council after the elections in Israel. An Israeli official believes that if the resolution draft is not radical and Netanyahu is still prime minister, Obama will not veto it.

        At the same time, the Americans could stop their assistance to Israel in blocking the Palestinians’ move to bring Israel up on war crimes charges at the International Court of Justice. They might even push the European states to increase their pressure on Israel and impose additional sanctions on West Bank and East Jerusalem settlements.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 18, 2015, 9:09 am

        50 calls?
        I’ve always wondered if Teresa had a hand on the wheel.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 18, 2015, 6:00 pm

        50 calls?
        I’ve always wondered if Teresa had a hand on the wheel.

        Yes, reports like this are pretty ironic. Mark Kersten @ Justice in Conflict has a couple of articles which explain that the ICC is a veritable political hotbed that almost has a phobia as an organization about appearing to be free from outside political influences. He says the Court should end its “toiling for years in the accountability purgatory that is a preliminary examination,” by opening investigations into Afghanistan, Georgia, and Palestine.
        http://justiceinconflict.org/2015/07/17/the-africa-icc-relationship-more-and-less-than-meets-the-eye-part-1/
        http://justiceinconflict.org/2015/07/02/on-darfur-the-icc-prosecutor-lays-it-down/

        The ICC Prosecutors are the worst offenders of all, since they have demanded to be in charge of policing themselves and that any independent oversight mechanism of the Office of the Prosecutor staff activities created by the Assembly of State Parties include a requirement to obtain Prosecutor’s consent before taking any disciplinary actions. In at least one case Wikileaks revealed that Ocampo had advised US officials that they could more readily obtain China’s acquiescence to toppling the Bashir regime in Sudan if assurances were provided that the successor regime wouldn’t be allowed to interfere with China’s continued access to the victim state’s oil and other natural resources. So it comes as no surprise at all that such a lizard-brained individual refused to recognize the jus cogens Palestinian right to determine its own statehood and the corollary right of permanent sovereignty of peoples over their own natural resources.

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        July 18, 2015, 1:36 pm

        To a large extent Kerry must do what the President wants him to do, so all these efforts to “protect” Israel must have come from the President, and not Kerry’s initiatives. I think the Booby man’s efforts to disrespect the WH, and try to manipulate our spineless Congress into not only inviting the unwanted guest to speak in Congress, but mainly his ugly attempts to sabotage Obama’s plan to achieve an agreement with Iran, was the last straw. This was so arrogant and so low down, from the parasitic nation, who calls itself one of our “allies”, while our real allies supported us. If Obama does not give Bibi a good shot of reality at this point, he may never get that chance, and neither will future Presidents. Bibi’s devious moves lately have been the main reason Israel is getting isolated, and disliked. The people of Israel who voted for this man should blame him for what is to come.

  7. Marnie
    Marnie
    July 18, 2015, 3:37 am

    The news this week has been wonderful, with much to be hopeful about. I picture Netanyahu, toasty and mad, banging on the White House door, all the while hearing the party he’ll never be invited to again.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYr7I4gOSXk

  8. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    July 18, 2015, 11:27 am

    Thanks Annie. Read most of the UN report when it came out. When you read the description of the killings no way in hell that this could not be considered a “massacre” of human rights activist. Many of the victims were shot in the back of the head. Some at close range. Bone chilling when you read

    • annie
      annie
      July 18, 2015, 12:32 pm

      Many of the victims were shot in the back of the head. Some at close range.

      that’s why i used furkan dogan’s execution for the graphic up top. a graphic example of why the perpetrators confiscated all cameras, video equipment, discs etc. i’m sure there are many more unreleased examples hanging out in some israeli military file. dogan was filming when they murdered him. i wonder what he videoed — probably other assassinations. the bravery and courage of than woman who was able to capture dogan’s death and hide the recording. it’s mindblowing what these people went thru.

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        July 18, 2015, 1:37 pm

        If this was done by Iran, there would be howls of condemnation in the media, and more sanctions against Iran. But of course, this is dear, precious Israel, the zionists who do no wrong.

      • Kathleen
        Kathleen
        July 20, 2015, 10:16 am

        Some MSM outlets had Colonel Ann Wright and I believe a former Ambassador who was on the trip soon after the massacre. Was Peck his last name? However not a mention of the UN report about the massacre on any outlets I listen to or watch. I try to go right, left and center. Have even listened to Rush while driving across the country. Painful. Have made it through the screeners by kissing up. And then politely slammed Limbaugh. They cut you off quickly

  9. FreddyV
    FreddyV
    July 18, 2015, 1:58 pm

    Glad to see justice on its way. It was this event that triggered my activism, although as a Christian Zionist at the time, my plan was to research and formulate a defense for Israel.

    I’m still suffering for my defection to this day, but I believed in the truth and at last we’re seeing the truth will out.

  10. FreddyV
    FreddyV
    July 18, 2015, 2:08 pm

    This is a good one. Ken O’Keefe.

    • Rashers2
      Rashers2
      July 19, 2015, 8:54 pm

      Thanks for the link to the ‘Hardtalk’ interview. The interviewer revealed the extent that MSM had bought into and accepted the Israeli Hasbara on MV Mami Marmara and on the broader Israeli rights to “self-defence”. In retrospect, however, it’s encouraging to realise that the position of people like Ken O’Keefe on Gaza/I-P, which in 2010 would have been branded extreme by MSM and many of its consumers, has since gained a wider currency. It’s as has happened with descriptors of the Israeli right wing: in 2011/12, liberal friends heavily warned me off use of the “eff-word” (Fascist) to describe the beliefs and policies of Revisionist Zionist prelates and far-right politicians (currently, most MKs). Far less courageously and publicly than Mr. O’Keefe, I have also come a long way in a short time when it comes to I-P; I note the “eff-word” appearing increasingly frequently as an apt epithet to describe Mileikowsky and his racist, expansionist brethren. A price for such criticism appearing less extreme today than five years ago, sadly, has been Protective Edge, which I believe has caused many in the West for the first time seriously to question whether what the Zionist state entails is acceptable.
      It may, however, be some time before MSM starts not routinely to overlook/ignore inconvenient but crucial facts (facts which should be accepted as “givens”) in relation to both the Mami Marmara assault and, more broadly, the Occupation and the siege of Gaza, namely that, legally, Israel is wholly in the wrong and that it should not be for such as Mr. O’Keefe or the Palestinian resistance to justify themselves; rather for the Zionist régime, its apologists and those through whose subvention Israel is enabled to behave with impunity and to continue inhabiting its perverted “parallel universe”.
      It’s to be welcomed that the matter of the attack on Mavi Marmara has been re-opened but I shan’t be holding my breath while the ICC grows a stouter backbone.

      • Kathleen
        Kathleen
        July 20, 2015, 12:13 pm

        Thanks had not seen this one.

  11. Bornajoo
    Bornajoo
    July 18, 2015, 3:24 pm

    Thanks for the video link FreddyV

    Many thanks Annie (and Hostage) for this very encouraging article. I say encouraging because of the possibility, however slight, that Israel will actually be brought to justice for these cold blooded murders, even though they’ve committed thousands of other cold blooded murders and countless crimes against humanity with impunity and with no chance of justice for the victims.

  12. Mondowise
    Mondowise
    July 19, 2015, 12:19 pm

    not only is this article fantastic, but the comments, too, are extremely informative. i thank all of you for informing the world, particularly regarding the legal aspects. so hats off to annie, hostage, harrylaw, just and others!

    which brings me to my questions, please pardon my staggering ignorance of international law in advance. i am wondering — since Turkey has issued arrest warrants for israeli officials over the Mavi Marmara tragedy — what’s up with that? what can or will happen?

    can Turkey involve Interpol to go after them too? can Interpol do anything with or because of Turkey’s warrants? if not, why not??? also, does or will the fact that the turkish legal system already found israeli officials guilty have any bearing at the ICC? i’d appreciate any education/clarity on this.

    i guess i’m just overly stunned by israel’s continued impunity… i mean, do we seriously live in a world with two sets of law: 1) israeli law for israel, and 2) international law for the rest of the world ??????? this is so f**ked up

    • Hostage
      Hostage
      July 19, 2015, 4:06 pm

      i am wondering — since Turkey has issued arrest warrants for israeli officials over the Mavi Marmara tragedy — what’s up with that? what can or will happen?

      When the hearings in Turkey first began, Ynet published an interview with Former IDF Military Advocate General Avichai Mandelblit that was intended to discredit the Turkish indictments:

      Asked about any concerns the four Israelis may have about traveling overseas, Mandelblit said, “Naturally they have no reason to travel to Turkey because they won’t be able to return and they should definitely stay away from the US.

      “The question is about Europe, but they are aware of the importance of the Palmer Report. European nations are reasonable and won’t allow Turkey to use their judicial system for political ends.”

      http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4302090,00.html

      The Palmer Commission was not an actual international criminal investigation conforming to acceptable standards. Its mandate only allowed it to obtain hearsay information through diplomatic channels from the accused parties and it was only intended to achieve conciliation between the states of Israel and Turkey. In the end, it didn’t even accomplish that objective.

      Turkey is exercising criminal jurisdiction over crimes committed against its nationals elsewhere. Among other things, rights for which no derogation is allowed under the terms of the ECHR and the ICCPR were violated. That means that even in wartime, the question of fact as to whether or not the blockade itself was legal, would simply be an irrelevant factor under the applicable human rights laws of the EC. So, Turkey is certainly entitled to request custody of the individuals accused from other EC countries. But it can’t expect them to honor the terms of any final judgment that results from a trial in absentia.

      The Geneva Conventions have been universally ratified and Comoros has alleged that grave breaches were committed that require all other state parties to search for those responsible and either prosecute or extradite them, without regard to their views on the Rome Statute or the ICC. The articles on penal sanctions for grave breaches do not allow a High Contracting Party to exonerate itself.

      • Mondowise
        Mondowise
        July 20, 2015, 10:24 am

        Hostage, thank you so very much for your reply, it helps. incidentally, i’m seeing your comments all over the place (e.g. opinio juris, where i commented very briefly on a heller article re your obvious superior expertise). i so greatly appreciate more than i can say in words the time and effort you take to comment here, there, wherever! not sure if you write articles, per se, as i don’t know you by author name if you do, but i’d read them all for sure. you are shedding true light into the blackest hole on earth, there simply are no words of gratitude to thank you enough. i’m so so soooo glad you and a few others i mentioned in my earlier comment are regulars here at Mondoweiss!!! DON’T EVER LEAVE!

  13. bintbiba
    bintbiba
    July 20, 2015, 11:24 am

    Mondowise ,

    Many thanks for your message to Hostage,
    I truly share your appreciation for the the Truth and Expertise that Hostage provides so very generously to all of us.

    ……”you are shedding true light into the blackest hole on earth, there simply are no words of gratitude to thank you enough. ”

    And well said , Mondowise !

    • just
      just
      July 20, 2015, 11:32 am

      Ditto to both of you, Mondowise and bintbiba!

      Where’s our other truth- teller~ seafoid? I miss seafoid so much.

      • bintbiba
        bintbiba
        July 20, 2015, 12:49 pm

        @just

        “”Where’s our other truth- teller~ seafoid? I miss seafoid so much. “”

        Seafoid , we really do miss you ‘khaaliss’ !!

    • Bornajoo
      Bornajoo
      July 20, 2015, 11:33 am

      “Mondowise ,

      ” Many thanks for your message to Hostage,
      I truly share your appreciation for the the Truth and Expertise that Hostage provides so very generously to all of us.”

      Well stated Bintbiba. Ditto!

      Thanks for your comments Mondowise

  14. Mondowise
    Mondowise
    July 20, 2015, 12:12 pm

    from one of my comments at opinio juris about hostage:

    “I don’t see any ‘politics’ in the opinions expressed in Hostage’s comments regarding such procedures, rather I see interpretation of law with a high order of legal competence, knowledge, insight, understanding and thoroughness of detail.”

    i’ll also add here that it is my opinion (from what i’ve seen him share) hostage is so obviously expertly versed in law that his knowledge of law can be a very real game changer for palestinians and the world towards peace. his opinions and interpretations are fact-based, they are clear, they are solid, they are indeed superior (sure hope hostage holds some high-level position to get things done)! i’m personally blown away…

    don’t thank me, thank hostage!

  15. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    July 20, 2015, 12:27 pm

    Unable to find the Keith Olbermann/Ambassador Peck interview after the Mavi Marmara massacre. Unavailable on you tube now. One link leads to Firedoglake and says interview unavailable.

  16. a blah chick
    a blah chick
    July 24, 2015, 8:55 am

    Jackdaw July 24, 2015, 7:52 am
    My roots in Eretz Yisroel go back to the early 19th century.
    Am I indigenous too?

    You pursue the “indigenous people” thing at your peril. Because if your family has “indigenous” rights after little more than a hundred years what about those Palestinians who have been there for centuries?

    • CigarGod
      CigarGod
      July 24, 2015, 9:38 am

      19th century means 1800’s, which is 200 years. Not sure Jack knows this either.
      However, it’s probably meaningless. In 200 years, one’s roots can be many, and global. Jacks root to Palestine may be one line out of hundreds. Just one argument.

      • annie
        annie
        July 24, 2015, 10:01 am

        i’m nine generations american (pre revolutionary war) and i would never identify as indigenous to this land. my ancestors came from europe — clearly. but before that africa like every other human. heck, maybe they traveled thru the middle east to get here! if they did, could i conceivably be indigenous to the levant like jack? wonders never cease!

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 24, 2015, 10:15 am

        There is a noxious strain of absurd dishonesty that is common with the defenders of Modern Zionism, here. I grew up with it, too. Grasping and contorting and rationalizing the slightest, the tiniest figment that might possibily support an argument. It seems to be honored by these guys. It doesn’t matter…as Jim Carey so aptly put it when told by the beautiful object of his desire, that the chances were one in a million…and he responded: “So, there’s a chance!”
        These commenters like to believe that anti-semitism explains the distain heaped on them, instead of what it really is…the pathetic, writhing weasling of their own de-evolution.

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