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Israel’s ‘security’ wall has provided little security

Israel/Palestine

The current violence in Israel and Palestine has demonstrated the ineffectiveness of the separation barrier, the concrete wall/barbed wire fence that Israel began erecting inside Palestine 13 years ago during the second intifada to provide security. The wall is as high as 25 feet in some places, and travels for hundreds of miles inside Palestine, mostly east of the Green Line, grabbing territory that was supposed to go to a Palestinian state under the Oslo accords.

Most of the Palestinian attacks have taken place on the Israeli side of the separation barrier. Last week, for instance, several Israelis and an American were attacked inside the Gush Etzion settlement in the occupied West Bank, but on the Israeli side of the wall, while several other attacks by Palestinians have taken place in East Jerusalem, also inside the wall.

And though attacks have also taken place in Hebron, on the Palestinian side of the wall, those attacks demonstrate the intermingling of the Jewish settlers and Palestinians inside the occupied territories.

Israel characterized the wall as a security fence and separation barrier. But hundred of thousands of East Jerusalem and West Bank Palestinians live on the free side, the “Israel side” of the fence– not to mention the million-plus Palestinians living inside Israel. Jerusalem City Councilman Aryeh King says that since the creation of the wall, 80,000 Palestinians who live on the wrong side of the wall have moved to the west side of it, mostly into Jerusalem, so they could have greater freedom of movement. Human beings would naturally move to escape cages and checkpoints, King said. And several East Jerusalem Palestinians have been among the attackers.

As for the West Bank, the wall was designed so as to enclose large Jewish population centers on the West Bank. So it goes around the Gush Etzion settlement, where several attacks have taken place.

It is certainly likely that the wall has stopped other Palestinians from undertaking attacks they might have if they could have gotten to Jewish communities; the list of attacks doesn’t include events near the concrete wall itself. But all barriers in the West Bank are porous. For instance, it costs about 40 shekels ($10) to cross the wall at Abu Dis– Palestinians can pay a middle man, use his ladder, and catch a shared taxi waiting on the other end.

One lesson of the violence is that the wall didn’t provide security during the relative lull in violence from 2005-2015. It was Palestinian officials and armed groups that chose to stop attacks against Israelis in the wake of the Sharm El Sheikh Summit Conference in 2005 that closed the Second Intifada. There Palestinian leaders pledged an end to armed resistance. It was through this negotiated process that violence against Israelis came to a screeching halt. In this renewed wave, there is no formal leadership. Individuals, often teenagers who are motivated by the humiliating experience of occupation in areas neighboring settlements, are acting haphazardly, alone or with a close cousin. While the wall may be a blunt physical barrier, it can’t be given credit for the ten year lull. Politics did that. 

Another lesson is that the wall was always more of a landgrab than a security wall: intended to take as much land as possible in the West Bank with as few Palestinians on that land. That’s one reason folks call it the apartheid wall. “A major aim in planning the route was de facto annexation of part of the West Bank,” B’Tselem writes.

The failure of the wall also demonstrates that separation doesn’t work. The two populations live in geographically-distinct communities by and large but these communities are intermingled– neighborhoods and settlements are right on top of one another. Whatever political solution is worked out in Israel and Palestine ultimately, it will never separate these populations entirely and both populations will have to feel enfranchised under the resulting government(s). It’s a lesson Germany discovered a long time ago: walls that enclose one people and deny them freedom don’t work.

Allison Deger and Philip Weiss
About Allison Deger and Philip Weiss

Allison Deger is an Assistant Editor for Mondoweiss.net. Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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49 Responses

  1. diasp0ra
    diasp0ra
    December 2, 2015, 4:28 pm

    Israelis always point to the wall and say, hey! Attacks dropped by 90% after it was constructed! It must mean it’s working, right? Well, no, not right. This is a topic I have researched extensively.

    While the number of attacks inside Israel did indeed decrease since the construction of the wall, this has to do with other factors, rather than the wall itself. The first of these factors has to do with the extensive Israeli military operations that took place in the West Bank since 2002, namely Operation Defensive Shield, and Operation Determined Path. The second factor has to do with intra-Palestinian factors among the different factions, as well as the unilaterally declared Hamas truce. These attacks inside Israel would have dropped during this period regardless of the existence of the barrier.

    Even the Shin Bet recognize this, in their report published in 2005 they stated that “The main reason for the sharp decline [of terror attacks] is the truce in the territories”. Hamas finally agreeing to become part of the PA framework kept it busy in the political arena and lead to a significant drop in attacks.

    Furthermore, if the wall were truly the source upon which the security of Israel from West Bank attacks depended, then it would not make sense that construction was halted between 2007 and 2012 (around 50% completion), due to what the Israeli government described as “Budgetary Concerns”, with no rise in attacks during that period. If the goal of the wall was truly only to prevent suicide bombings and attacks inside Israel by West Bank Palestinians, then it would make little sense that the final route of the wall includes over 70,000 West Bank Palestinians (no Israeli ID or citizenship) on the Israeli side.

    At the time of the large drop in suicide bombings, the wall was not even 25% complete, which raises doubts as to whether the wall was what caused the drop. This skepticism is further reinforced by reports of between 30,000 to 40,000 illegal Palestinian workers who have managed to enter Israel through gaps in the wall. Even according to advocates of the wall, such as Ilan Tsi’on, thousands of illegal Palestinian workers cross the wall on a daily basis. If workers with no military training are able to traverse the wall on a daily basis, I don’t think it would be a difficult challenge for any suicide bomber or infiltrator with other intentions to accomplish. This once again highlights the importance of the intra-Palestinian context and the decision to forego military resistance as an option in the West Bank, rather than the effectiveness of the wall.

    I can find no solid stated causal proof that the separation wall was the cause for the drop in suicide attacks inside Israel. At the very best, it could be argued that it “helped” or “contributed” to security, although this remains vague and unclear and is never further elaborated, it also cannot explain the tens of thousands of Palestinians who cross it illegally annually, yet no suicide attacks have taken place for years.

    • oldgeezer
      oldgeezer
      December 2, 2015, 4:48 pm

      The numbers I have seen for illegal workers bypassing the wall are in excess of 50,000.

      I am repeating your words but if that many civilians can cross on a regular basis there is no reason trained, or untrained, attackers can’t.

      You have to abandon all common sense to believe the wall is effective prevention strategy for terrorism.

      The wall does not exist to prevent terrorism. It exists to steal Palestinian land and to maintain the apartheid society if Israel.

      • diasp0ra
        diasp0ra
        December 2, 2015, 4:55 pm

        Indeed, imo annexation was the primary function of the wall, but there are usually other considerations at play when constructing walls. Like the Romans in Britannia, Hadrian’s wall (which ultimately failed to stop invasions) was also designed to separate the “Civilized” Roman world from the “barbarian” hordes to the north.

        I’m pretty sure a similar mechanic is at play here as well for Israel.

    • tree
      tree
      December 2, 2015, 7:23 pm

      Diane Mason, at Lawrence of Cyberia, confirmed your comments above, diasp0ra, back in 2007.

      “One Thousand, Two Hundred And Seventy-Six People Per Week”(denoting the number of illegal Palestinian workers arrested in Israel in one week’s time)
      http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2007/09/one-thousand-tw.html

  2. Kay24
    Kay24
    December 2, 2015, 5:31 pm

    Interesting facts. To hear the bragging, you would think it was a brilliant idea, but most probably, it was yet another attempt to take more lands, and build through Palestinian property.

    No wall is going to stop desperate people from fighting for their freedom.

  3. talknic
    talknic
    December 2, 2015, 8:05 pm

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/06/AR2007080601661.html

    Chutzpa 101. Of all things, the separation barrier’s main designer, Dan Tirza, is an illegal settler!

    “The main thing the government told me in giving me the job was to include as many Israelis inside the fence and leave as many Palestinians outside … ”

    Michael Sfard, an Israeli human rights lawyer who has challenged the barrier’s route and confronted Tirza in court several times

    “… I’ve always had the impression he was more motivated by ideology than by power or money. That might sound like a compliment. But in the job he was supposed to do, he tried to mask his ideology and present it as a concern for security.”

  4. hophmi
    hophmi
    December 3, 2015, 10:43 am

    ” It was Palestinian officials and armed groups that chose to stop attacks against Israelis in the wake of the Sharm El Sheikh Summit Conference in 2005 that closed the Second Intifada.”

    This kind of reasoning is silly. First of all, it was the killing of their senior military leaders that led Palestinian armed groups to “choose” to stop attacking Israeli civilians. Second, the Wall made the prospect of continuing to carry out mass terror attacks a much more difficult proposition. Palestinian armed groups certain did not give up “armed resistance” between 2005 and 2015. That’s nonsense. They continued to fire rockets into Israeli population centers. They have just been less successful at killing Israeli civilians during that time.

    • diasp0ra
      diasp0ra
      December 3, 2015, 2:11 pm

      @Hophmi

      When the attacks dropped the wall wasn’t even 20% complete. Even today tens of thousands of people cross it annually. If people wanted to carry out suicide bombings it would have been exceedingly easy.

      Even the Shin Bet say this in their 2005 security report. Literally, I quote:

      “The main reason for the sharp decline [of terror attacks] is the truce in the territories”

    • tree
      tree
      December 3, 2015, 2:29 pm

      Here’s Haaretz’ coverage of the 2005 report:

      http://www.haaretz.com/shin-bet-palestinian-truce-main-cause-for-reduced-terror-1.61607

      First paragraph; “The Shin Bet’s statistics on terror attacks confirm the public perception that terrorist activity in 2005 dropped considerably compared to the previous four and a half years. The main reason for the sharp decline is the truce in the territories, the security service said yesterday.”

      read more: http://www.haaretz.com/shin-bet-palestinian-truce-main-cause-for-reduced-terror-1.61607

    • oldgeezer
      oldgeezer
      December 3, 2015, 3:05 pm

      @hophmi

      Yes the wall has made is so much more difficult that only 10’s of thousands cross it illegally. Put down the pipe and float back to earth.

      The sole purposes of the wall are theft, oppression and apartheid.

  5. Boo
    Boo
    December 3, 2015, 11:16 am

    One would logically expect — setting aside its other injustices momentarily for the sake of discussion — the Wall would reasonably be expected to provide equal security to Palestinians as well as Israelis. (After all, East German VoPos at least stayed on their side of their wall and didn’t enter West Berlin to terrorize its citizens.)

    But of course this is manifestly not the case. The JDF and their civilian-police mimics, not to mention illegal settler-thugs, transgress Palestinian territory and violate Palestinian “security” routinely and with impunity.

    Security is a two-way street, and when one side is relentlessly deprived of it, the other side has no right to it and must not expect it.

  6. MaxNarr
    MaxNarr
    December 3, 2015, 12:46 pm

    Only the part that is large concrete slabs is helpful in my opinion because it prevents snipers like the one that murdered infant Shalhevet Pass. The rest just keeps Jews from their lands.

    • eljay
      eljay
      December 3, 2015, 1:40 pm

      || MaxNarr: … The rest just keeps Jews from their lands. ||

      There are no lands belonging to “the Jews”. Israel has its territory for all its Israeli citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees, equally*, as defined by Partition and accepted by Israel. The rest is (war) criminal theft, occupation and colonization.
      _____________
      (*In theory. In practice, religion-supremacist Israel unjustly and immoraly has its territory primarily for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews.)

      • MaxNarr
        MaxNarr
        December 3, 2015, 2:46 pm

        Why do you capitalize Partition? Do you mean the non legally binding GA resolution that Arabs rejected and is null and void and defunct? Or something else?

      • eljay
        eljay
        December 3, 2015, 2:54 pm

        || MaxNarr: Why do you capitalize Partition? … ||

        It’s a proper noun.

        || … Do you mean the non legally binding GA resolution that Arabs rejected … ||

        No, I mean the borders Israel accepted and within which it requested and received recognition.

      • John O
        John O
        December 3, 2015, 2:56 pm

        @maxnarr

        “Why do you capitalize Partition? Do you mean the non legally binding GA resolution that Arabs rejected and is null and void and defunct? Or something else?”

        Why have you omitted the grammatically correct hyphen between “non” and “legally”?

      • MaxNarr
        MaxNarr
        December 3, 2015, 3:40 pm

        The Partition plan is not legally binding, there is nothing legal about it. Arabs rejected it and so it has no meaning. GA resolutions are not legally binding. The only international law governing Judea and Samaria is the San Remo international agreements which live on as UN Charter article 80 which grants the entire of Palestine to the Jewish people. That is why Jews are to this day encouraged to massively settle all areas of Ramallah, Gaza, Jerusalem, Hebron, etc, in accordance with international law.

      • talknic
        talknic
        December 3, 2015, 3:53 pm

        @ MaxNarr ” the non legally binding GA resolution that Arabs rejected and is null and void and defunct? Or something else”

        Let’s try the Israeli Government’s OFFICIAL plea for recognition Max.
        May 15, 1948

        Letter From the Agent of the Provisional Government of Israel to the President of the United States, “MY DEAR MR. PRESIDENT: I have the honor to notify you that the state of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947, and that a provisional government has been charged to assume the rights and duties of government for preserving law and order within the boundaries of Israel, for defending the state against external aggression, and for discharging the obligations of Israel to the other nations of the world in accordance with international law. The Act of Independence will become effective at one minute after six o’clock on the evening of 14 May 1948, Washington time.”

        Samples of the recognition of Israel:

        USA 15 May 1948 “… as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947…”
        Russia 17 May 1948
        Letter from Mr. Molotov stated: “Confirming receipt of your telegram of May 16, in which you inform the Government of the USSR of the proclamation, on the basis of the resolution of the United Nations Assembly of November 29, 1947, of the creation in Palestine of the independent State of Israel and make re-quest for the recognition of the State of Israel and its provisional government by the USSR. I inform yon in this letter that the Govern-ment of the USSR has decided to recognize officially the Stale of Israel and its Provisional Government.”
        British 27 April 1950
        “His Majesty’s Government have also decided to accord de jure recognition to the State of Israel, subject to explanations on two points corresponding to those described above in regard to the case of Jordan. These points are as follows. First, that His Majesty’s Government are unable to recognise the sovereignty of Israel over that part of Jerusalem which she occupies, though, pending a final determination of the status of the area, they recognise that Israel exercises de facto authority in it. Secondly, that His Majesty’s Government cannot regard the present boundaries between Israel, and Egypt, Jordan, Syria and the Lebanon as constituting the definitive frontiers of Israel, as these boundaries were laid down in the Armistice Agreements concluded severally between Israel and each of these States, and are subject to any modifications which may be agreed upon under the terms of those Agreements, or of any final settlements which may replace them.” (Thus far nothing has replaced them)
        Australia 28 January 1949 “… on the basis of the resolution of the United Nations Assembly of November 29, 1947…”

        Go Ziopoop somewhere else Max.

      • talknic
        talknic
        December 3, 2015, 4:45 pm

        @ MaxNarr “The Partition plan is not legally binding”

        The Israeli Declaration of statehood according to UNGA res 181, the Israeli Govt plea for recognition according to UNGA res 181 and Israel’s subsequent recognition according to that plea ARE legally binding Max

        “Arabs rejected it and so it has no meaning.”

        Go moan to the Jewish agency who claimed it was binding, despite the Arab rejection
        Friday, 19 March 1948 Rabbi Silver replacing Mr. Shertok at the Council table as representative of the Jewish Agency for Palestine stated:

        “We are under the obligation at this time to repeat what we stated at a [262nd meeting] meeting of the Security Council last week: The decision of the General Assembly remains valid for the Jewish people. We have accepted it and we are prepared to abide by it. If the United Nations Palestine Commission is unable to carry out the mandates which were assigned to it by the General Assembly, the Jewish people of Palestine will move forward in the spirit of that resolution and will do everything which is dictated by considerations of national survival and by considerations of justice and historic rights.” “The setting up of one State was not made conditional upon the setting up of the other State.”

        And again Security Council S/PV.271 19 March 1948 The representative of the Jewish Agency, Rabbi Silver:

        “The statement that the plan proposed by the General Assembly is an integral plan which cannot succeed unless each of its parts can be carried out, is incorrect. This conception was never part of the plan. Indeed, it is contrary to the statement made by the representative of the United States during the second session of the General Assembly. The setting up of one State was not made conditional upon the setting up of the other State. Mr. Herschel Johnson, representing the United States delegation, speaking in a sub-committee of the Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestinian Question on 28 October 1947, stated, in discussing this very matter in connexion with economic union: “The element of mutuality would not necessarily be a factor, as the document might be signed by one party only.”

        “GA resolutions are not legally binding”

        The Laws (all law is binding) and the UN Charter (binding in its entirety on all UN Member states) re-affirmed and emphasized or otherwise relative to or in any UN resolution are binding

        ” The only international law governing Judea and Samaria is the San Remo international agreements which live on”

        The Israeli Govt website tells us it expired midnight May 15th 1948. http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/declaration%20of%20establishment%20of%20state%20of%20israel.aspx

        Furthermore Article 7 of the LoN Mandate for Palestine tells us you’re spouting bullsh*t Max http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp#art7

        ” as UN Charter article 80 which grants the entire of Palestine to the Jewish people”

        Nonsense. Go cry to the Israeli Government for proclaiming its borders per UNGA res 181

        “That is why Jews are to this day encouraged to massively settle all areas of Ramallah, Gaza, Jerusalem, Hebron, etc, in accordance with international law.”

        UNSC resolutions tell us you’re spouting nonsense Max http://wp.me/pDB7k-W8

      • eljay
        eljay
        December 3, 2015, 5:13 pm

        || MaxNarr: … That is why Jews are to this day encouraged to massively settle all areas of Ramallah, Gaza, Jerusalem, Hebron, etc, in accordance with international law. ||

        Jews were and continue to be encouraged by hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists to massively – and unjustly and immorally – steal, occupy and colonize Palestine in accordance with Zio-supremacism.

    • Kris
      Kris
      December 3, 2015, 3:11 pm

      MaxNarr, could you please provide the link to the information you have that Breaking the Silence has been “debunked”? It was a few days ago (see below) that you informed us of this, and I can’t seem to verify it through google searches, so please provide your link! Thanks.

      @MaxNarr, November 28, 2015, 8:45 pm:

      Breaking the Silence has already been debunked. Next.
      – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/11/killed-israeli-veteran#comment-812557

      • MaxNarr
        MaxNarr
        December 3, 2015, 3:40 pm

        Kris, I did provide the link but it was censored. Please take that up with the moderator.

      • amigo
        amigo
        December 3, 2015, 4:52 pm

        “Breaking the Silence has already been debunked. Next.
        – See more at: link to mondoweiss.net”maxnarr

        1, Max, can you tell us what you mean by , debunked.

        2, Can you tell us by who and what research led you to make the above statement.

        3, Can you supply links to this research.

        Obtw , here is something relevant I found during my research ,, I include links and I hope the moderator will not reject my post .But then , it is in compliance with the rules , so I worry unnecessarily.Why ever did they block your,s.Maybe the MW moderators are trying to protect us from the facts , just to keep us here.

        “Breaking the Silence Is Indispensable to Israeli Democracy

        Instead of giving in to incitement and violence, police must do their duty to protect the organization.
        read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.689699

        “Breaking the Silence is a critical NGO for Israeli society because it insists on revealing the occupation’s injustices and the immorality of Israeli soldiers’ actions in the territories. That’s also why it is seen as a headache by many people, even the police, who should protect the group from those threatening it and trying to harm it.

        Last week the Be’er Sheva Magistrate’s Court barred a local pub from holding a Breaking the Silence presentation, after the police had already made it hard for the pub’s owners and the group to hold the event. The police made demands including limiting the event to 40 people, keeping a list of attendees, and hiring two security guards at either the pub’s or the group’s expense.

        The group complied but refused to take responsibility for events outside the pub, a demand that was illogical and unreasonable in the first place. In any case, even though talks between the parties were still underway, the police went to court to secure a restraining order.

        This week the group planned an event at the Bar Kayma restaurant in Tel Aviv. A day before the event, police showed up and sought assurances that the number of participants would not exceed the limit stipulated on the eatery’s license.

        According to the owners, this was the first time police had visited the place in the three and a half years since it opened. The owners also said the police took great interest in the license’s details – noting, for example, that the owners section had not been updated and the courtyard served as a smoking area even though this wasn’t noted on the license.”

        Maybe that is what you meant by debunked.

      • Kris
        Kris
        December 3, 2015, 5:08 pm

        @MaxNarr: “Kris, I did provide the link but it was censored. Please take that up with the moderator.”

        Maybe your link was infected with malware or something like that, or was to a sketchy web site? If “Breaking the Silence” has really been “debunked,” the report has no doubt been published by an established news source, maybe haaretz or the Jerusalem Post or The Forward, and you could link to your information there.

        And, as amigo suggests, you should define what you mean by “debunked,” and tell us who did the “debunking.” If you google the name of the group who did the study “debunking” Breaking the Silence, you should be able to find reliable links to share with us.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        December 4, 2015, 12:44 am

        “Kris, I did provide the link but it was censored. Please take that up with the moderator. “

        “MaxNarr” I have been advising all of you, the entire herd of ilk, to get your own blog, and get out from under the censorship and antisemitism, and bias you are subjected to here.
        Start your own blog, and destroy Mondo. A sort of ‘Mondo-watch’ blog, exposing all the hate-think and rat-finks!

        So if you like, I will sign up for a blog (takes like, 15 minutes) develop some traffic, and you guys can settle in as commenters, and then kick me off my own blog and take it over. I want you to start out right. Tradition!

      • Kris
        Kris
        December 4, 2015, 11:53 am

        @Mooser: ““MaxNarr” I have been advising all of you, the entire herd of ilk, to get your own blog, and get out from under the censorship and antisemitism, and bias you are subjected to here. …”

        I am SO glad I finished my coffee before I read this!

      • Kris
        Kris
        December 4, 2015, 2:00 pm

        @Mooser: “So if you like, I will sign up for a blog (takes like, 15 minutes) develop some traffic, and you guys can settle in as commenters, and then kick me off my own blog and take it over. I want you to start out right. Tradition!”

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        December 19, 2015, 11:25 am

        “Ex-IDF general takes out ad to support Breaking the Silence”

        http://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-top-idf-officer-takes-out-ad-to-support-breaking-the-silence/

    • zaid
      zaid
      December 4, 2015, 2:33 am

      MAx

      Ramallah, Hebron, Old city of Jerusalem,East Jerusalem, Gaza,The entire Galeel (northern Palestine), Nablus, the southern Negev, The Golan…..etc, All these are majority Palestinian by Population and there is nothing Israel can do to change that , calling it Judea and Smaria or Jewish land wont change the reality on the ground. and it is only going to get worse and worse by time.

      Israel pulled out of Sinai (holy to Jews) and Israel pulled out of Lebanon, And Israel pulled out of Gaza…..The days of Israel wining ended in 1967.

  7. James Canning
    James Canning
    December 3, 2015, 12:57 pm

    The “separation barrier” should have been built on the border of the West Bank. And the G W Bush administration should have tried to prevent Israel’s idiotic scheme of building the wall hither and thither all over occupied Palestine.

    • MaxNarr
      MaxNarr
      December 3, 2015, 1:45 pm

      James, please keep in mind there is no “border” with Judea and Samaria, there were armistance lines made after the illegal Jordanian aggression into Jewish lands where they illegally occupied Judea and Samaria before liberation.

      • talknic
        talknic
        December 3, 2015, 3:43 pm

        @ MaxNarr “please keep in mind there is no “border” with Judea and Samaria”

        Correct.
        1) The West Bank as it was officially renamed by the sovereign of 1950, was legally annexed at the request of the majority of the legitimate inhabitants. Jordan’s annexation was as a trustee (Session: 12-II Date: May 1950).

        2) As such, the West Bank was under Jordanian sovereignty by 1967. Jordan was by then a UN Member State and as a signatory to GC IV, a High Contracting Power which is why the UNSC tells us Israel in breach of GC IV http://wp.me/pDB7k-W8

        “… there were armistance lines … “

        Correct. The Armistice Demarcation Lines that, according to the Armistice AGREEMENTS Israel AGREED TO by signing the Armistice AGREEMENTS, were specifically not to be construed as territorial boundaries http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/arm01.asp

        “made after the illegal Jordanian aggression into Jewish lands”

        Strange. In the Israeli Government plea for recognition the Israeli Government itself claimed that the Jewish state’s borders were in accordance with UNGA res 181 http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf It was subsequently recognized according to its plea for recognition. Jordan didn’t enter any Jewish state territory

        By 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) there were already Jewish forces under Plan Dalet in territories NOT proclaimed as being of the Jewish State

        ” where they illegally occupied Judea and Samaria”

        Strange. There was an Armistice Agreement. Do you know what an agreement is Max? Israel signed it, agreeing that TransJordan was the Occupying Power.

        You’re peddling idiotic Ziopoop written specially for morons Max

      • amigo
        amigo
        December 3, 2015, 5:01 pm

        “You’re peddling idiotic Ziopoop written specially for morons Max” Talknic.

        That , (your whole post )is the what I refer to as a bloody good “debunking”. I wonder if max will be as precise .Last i noticed , he is blaming the moderators for ditching his link to the article/s that prove, Breaking the silence has been debunked.

        Typical zio apologist –blame someone else.

      • talknic
        talknic
        December 3, 2015, 9:01 pm

        @ amigo “a bloody good “debunking””

        I doubt Max will bother to read it thoroughly or follow any links thru to official UN records, official Jewish Agency & official Israeli Government statements

        Max and Co unwittingly afford opportunity after opportunity to point sincere readers to invaluable information they can use should they encounter the same idiotic arguments in the future

    • diasp0ra
      diasp0ra
      December 3, 2015, 2:08 pm

      Building the wall on the border of the West Bank would be Israel building all over occupied Palestine.

      Walls never work. Ever. Not a single wall in history has been successful in being a security deterrent forever.

      • eljay
        eljay
        December 3, 2015, 2:25 pm

        || diasp0ra: … Walls never work. … ||

        No kidding. They can’t stop terror rockets raining down from skies of terror, or terror terrorists popping up out of terror tunnels.

    • MaxNarr
      MaxNarr
      December 3, 2015, 8:15 pm

      @amigo @moderators, please moderate scatalogical comments as they violate the comments policy.

      • talknic
        talknic
        December 3, 2015, 10:07 pm

        Word search of http://mondoweiss.net/policy for “scatalogical” – results – NIL

      • Kris
        Kris
        December 3, 2015, 10:33 pm

        @MaxNarr, go to the comments policy, click on and highlight the section that discusses scatalogical comments, and then in the drop-down “edit” menu on your computer screen, select “copy.” Then come back here, click on “reply” under your comment, and then go back to the “edit” menu and click on “paste.”

        Once you have done this, we will all be able to see exactly what you’re talking about. Thanks.

      • MaxNarr
        MaxNarr
        December 3, 2015, 11:10 pm

        @Kris you are right, they removed that part. Sorry. Well it’s gross anyway, so I won’t be engaging

      • annie
        annie
        December 3, 2015, 11:22 pm

        they removed that part.

        our comment policy used to mention “scatalogical” but someone removed it (to make a fool of you no doubt). uh huh. maybe not engaging is a wise idea.

      • talknic
        talknic
        December 4, 2015, 12:59 am

        @ MaxNarr does Zionistas will say anything 101

        “they removed that part. Sorry. Well it’s gross anyway, so I won’t be engaging”

        Bye Max. Hope all goes well for you

  8. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    December 3, 2015, 1:28 pm

    “The rest just keeps Jews from their lands”. Sounds frighteningly similar to the HerrenVolkSpeak of Nazi Germany and the “right” to expand into what had been allegedly pure Aryan land.

    KUTGW – the more you Zionists try to defend the indefensible,the more you expose your pathetic Fascist and Racist inner selves.

    • eljay
      eljay
      December 3, 2015, 2:29 pm

      || Ossinev: … Sounds frighteningly similar to the HerrenVolkSpeak of Nazi Germany … ||

      Just wait until he gets bold enough to present his “final solution” to the “Palestinian problem”. It often seems like he’s just dying to blurt it out.

  9. genesto
    genesto
    December 3, 2015, 2:21 pm

    OK, so here’s what Israel can do to solve its ‘security’ problem. I’ll state two options:

    1. Build an impenetrable, transparent bubble to cover the entire state, supported by an expanded security wall around its perimeter (whatever that may be) and various structural support systems within the country.
    2. Remove all of the non Jews from Israel and subject the Jews that remain to a very rigorous loyalty test, something on the order of what Syrian refugees must pass currently to enter the US.
    3. Keep a close watch on who enters and who leaves the country from that point on.

    or

    End the Occupation and the constant, unequal and increasingly abusive treatment of the non Jews, both inside Israel and in the OT, by making a serious attempt at peace and reconciliation.

    I guarantee this second option to be much more effective, more gratifying for all affected – and a hell of a lot cheaper!

  10. talknic
    talknic
    December 3, 2015, 10:02 pm

    @ genesto “I guarantee this second option to be much more effective, more gratifying for all affected – and a hell of a lot cheaper!!”

    Cheaper? Not so. It is the greatest fear of any nation is to become a bankrupt state and/or embroiled in a civil war, especially if that war is in territories not yet belonging to that state by any legal agreement or legal instrument.

    Israel cannot now after 68 years of breaking International Law afford to suddenly adhere to it.

    Little understood is the fact that the UN cannot censure non-members for their actions nor can it censure a Member State in retrospect for its actions prior to membership. There are no UNSC resolutions naming Israel prior to Israel’s applications for UN Membership. Such actions can never the less be in contravention of International Law which is binding on all states.

    Jewish forces under Plan Dalet were already in non-Israeli territories at 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) when, according to the Israeli Government at the time, Israel’s proclaimed borders came into effect http://wp.me/pDB7k-Xk

    The law requires rightful compensation for 68 years of transgressions as of 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) and the removal of hundreds of thousands of illegal Israeli settlers who will;
    A) either need to take Palestinian citizenship if they’re welcome or need to be resettled back in Israeli territory and who will be;
    B) really p*ssed off at being lied to by successive Israeli Governments and who will undoubtedly;
    C) start class actions against the State of Israel for being lied to for 68 years and;
    D) the return of non-Jewish Israeli citizens to within Israel’s actual borders of 00:01 May 15th 1948, land and housing compensation AND their compensation for 68 years of hardship while dispossessed

    Israel would become a bankrupt, failed state.

    Furthermore, as Israel has never legally acquired by any legal mechanism or agreement any territories outside of its self proclaimed and Internationally recognized borders, the evacuation/relocation of hundreds of thousands of entrenched illegal Israeli settlers will likely result in a civil war in those non-Israeli territories needing to be evacuated

    An Israeli civil war in non-Israeli territory will turn into a nightmare and would give other UN Member States and the other Regional Powers the right to military intervention under the UN Charter Chapt VII as the Arab States did in 1948. For which BTW there was no UNSC condemnation against any Arab state even tho four of those five regional powers were UN Member states at the time

    Israel must plea bargain and strike an agreement under which territory is ceded to it thru a legally binding agreement.

    The Palestinians in front of the world at the UN http://pages.citebite.com/e9p5s8u2yhcd and the Arab peace initiative have shown their willingness to reach such an agreement despite the fact that;

    There is no moral or legal basis for the Palestinians to forgo any of their legal rights in order to achieve independent statehood and final full UN Membership under which they could demand full restitution

    Israel alas, protected only by the US UNSC veto vote, vainly chooses to remain in the pot

  11. lonely rico
    lonely rico
    December 4, 2015, 3:11 am

    >talknic
    Israel would become a bankrupt, failed state.

    Israel ALREADY IS
    bankrupt & a failure

    Without the massive infusion of cash from the US government and Zionist supporters in the west, would this nasty little country be other than BANKRUPT ?

    The incapacity of bellicose and violent Israel to live at peace with its neighbors,
    its cruel endless dispossession, murder, torture and hate of the Palestinians,
    looks to me like a most abject FAILURE.

    However, let’s be fair, there have been some fine achievements –
    the Jewish cow http://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/jewish-superior-netanyahu
    the cherry tomato http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/reporters-israeli-tomato
    and B. Netanyahoo’s 44 second ground-breaking Thespian moment at the UN – http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/netanyahus-silence-pathetic

    • talknic
      talknic
      December 4, 2015, 3:36 pm

      @ lonely rico “Israel ALREADY IS
      bankrupt & a failure

      Without the massive infusion of cash from the US government and Zionist supporters in the west, would this nasty little country be other than BANKRUPT ?”

      We don’t know. There are far poorer countries on the planet who are not considered fiscally (or morally) bankrupt.

      We can ascertain tho even given a wide + / – , that paying for 68 years of illegal plundering non-Israeli resources, reparations for dispossession and territorial acquisition, the cost of repatriation, compensation and rehousing hundreds of thousands of unfortunately duped and very angry illegal Israeli settlers etc would be astronomical. Far beyond the means of Ziodollars and the Israeli economy

      Israel has indeed failed in its legal and moral obligations

  12. ritzl
    ritzl
    December 4, 2015, 2:52 pm

    Good article, but again…

    What “territories” would these be?:

    “And though attacks have also taken place in Hebron, on the Palestinian side of the wall, those attacks demonstrate the intermingling of the Jewish settlers and Palestinians inside the occupied territories.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/12/israels-security-provided#sthash.dIZYQ9q0.dpuf

    Sorry to be the bad guy (again) but it’s designed, Palestinian identity-negating, Israel-speak phrasing. If you seek to negate Palestinian identity, please continue using this terminology.

    If not, it’s such a simple thing to NOT do.

    ▶…occupied Palestine…◀, yes?

    Peace.

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