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In calling for end of Jewish state, Avraham Burg is painted as ‘troublemaker’ at liberal NY synagogue

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In a new book, the Israeli writer and politician Avraham Burg has come out for a one-state solution entailing federated Jewish and Palestinian political entities, and on Monday night he was hosted by the progressive New York synagogue B’nai Jeshurun and the New Israel Fund to talk about his ideas.

The most significant element of the evening was how much discomfort the two liberal sponsors had with Burg. Here is a true aristocrat of Israeli society (Burg has religious, Ashkenazi and political pedigree out the yingyang, he was an interim President of Israel) offering the most reasonable answers to Israel’s problems– Palestinians are our equals, there is no such thing as a Jewish democracy– and his hosts needed to distance themselves from him.

Rabbi Roly Matalon, the guiding spirit of the synagogue, praised Burg as a great friend who has come “again and again and again” to his synagogue as a voice for peace, and given him advice over 30 years “in difficult times and in easy times and in times when I have needed to develop some vision and find some inspiration and some answers to difficult questions.” Then he put a disclaimer on the talk. Burg is a troublemaker.

Rabbi Roly Matalon of B’nai Jeshurun

We are very honored that you’re here… He is someone whom I have admired for many many years… I am very very happy that he is here again…

What I really admire about Avrum is his truth-telling. Many people don’t like that he has a big mouth…. He says it as he sees it. He may understand that there are many other people who have a different understanding and different perspective. But he tells his perspective knowing that it’s not the only truth, but this is what he believes and he shares it, and he’s a troublemaker– you know, everybody, every family, every community, every country has an official story. And then there are people who challenge the official story and bring up all sorts of questions and search for a deeper truth and this is what his business is. It’s been his business as a politician, his business as an educator and a writer. “

Burg said he wasn’t sure what to make of Matalon’s introduction: “We’ve known each other for so many years, and I’ve no clue whether he welcomed me or not tonight.”

Rabbi Ayelet Cohen

Later moderator Rabbi Ayelet Cohen of the New Israel Fund also distanced herself from Burg’s comments. After he had laid out his post-Zionist vision for a state of all its citizens, not a Jewish state, she said, “If we were watching this on TV, right now’s when we’d see the asterisk with the crawler under the screen: the position of the speaker does not necessarily reflect the position of the congregation of B’nai Jeshurun.”

Cohen had done everything she could to put off Burg’s ideas. She had focused on safe sections of Burg’s book, the 1967 War and the 1929 massacre in Hebron. Not till an hour had passed and the question period arrived, did audience members eagerly ask about Burg’s one-state fare. Then Cohen distanced herself, saying Burg was a difficult voice to listen to because he pushed “all the buttons.”

And she said: “This is a conversation that when it gets real it gets hard.”

She’s right, and that’s the discourse in the Jewish community. Official American Jewry, which is tied to richer older Jews with a Holocaust frame of reference, doesn’t want to hear about Israel’s central problem, the persecution of Palestinians. Even when a bona fide Israeli Jew with a long official resume and a yarmulke is bringing them the news that the two-state solution is dead and there’s no need for a Jewish state, they don’t want to hear it. Though some members of the congregation applaud him.

And you wonder why these same halls never give the podium to anti-Zionist Jews and Palestinians…. And by the way, Matalon justified the invitation by saying that Burg’s ideas are rooted in Torah. As if that’s the only path into the realm of wisdom.

Here are some of Burg’s comments.

On the two-state solution being dead, and the necessity to give Palestinians equal rights.

People don’t realize that the two-state solution is not a product with no expiration date…. I’m afraid that it expired. I’m not at all sure that it is still there on the shelf. Maybe one day it will come back. But under the current state of affairs, I’m not at all sure that a two state solution is still valid. That’s why I ask myself … OK, if the two-state solution is not there because of this reason or that reason… so it is one state between the Jordan and the Mediterranean with two regimes– one full of privileges for the Jews, and one full of discrimination for the Palestinians– versus a one-state formula with a fairer and more equal regime for all.

So the competition is not one state versus two states. But it is the current state of affairs, of one state with two regimes, or a better one-state. This is what we have today.

The Jewish state doesn’t work because of the lack of separation of church and state.

We are in love with the Jewish and democratic formula. It’s a great offer, it’s two for the price of one…. Jewish and democratic is a problem, because no state, no society, no company, no family can function with two sources of authority. The democratic, human, here-and-now one, and the theocratic, divine given one. Impossible!

There’s light at the end of the tunnel for the Israeli left:

People are tired of the fatigue. I’ll explain. This despair is so good. You don’t have to do a thing. Why bother? It will never change, Netanyahu is here forever. After the moshiach [messiah] he will still be there. Despair became very very comfortable. I think that people are tired of being exhausted by their despair. I feel that people more and more in various corners are assuming responsibility…. People are coming out on the street. People do not stay at home anymore…. I do not know what will be the outcome of it… I pray for one thing. I pray for a different political system, in which courtesy is a common language, and there is not incitement any more. Not inflicting this or that against the other.

Cover of Burg’s new book, from Nation Books.

BTW, Burg said that leftwing civil society organizations aimed at working in the courts had drained a lot of the energy out of leftleaning political life, allowing it to be “castrated.”

Now here is the fun part. At the end of Burg’s talk, an older woman named Deborah said, “I have one final question. Is Israel a place at the end of your scenario where there will be a home for a Jew who doesn’t have one?”

Burg sparred with her. “Who is a Jew who needs a home, who doesn’t have a home today?… So you’re talking about the Holocaust again?”

Deborah said, “I’m talking about history repeating itself. It may be fiction to you, but it’s history repeating itself.”

Burg expressed anger at her.

If I listen very carefully to what you say–… “I need you to suffer over there just in case if one day I will need a home from the upper west side.” You have to tell me how long– how long I have to suffer over there?… Forget about it. What am I, a shelter? I’m not there for you… I’m not living my life for you to come there just in case of an emergency….”

Burg then questioned the need for Jewish sovereignty.

I’m 4000 years old Jew and most of my history, I didn’t have airplanes, denied nuclear bombs, denied paratroopers, denied a state, and I survived nicely. Israel, you are 70 years old, and you have the mightiest army ever in the world and every day you are afraid the state of Israel will perish. What is wrong with you Israelis?

Sovereignty has very little to do with guaranteeing the future of the Jewish people…. The survival of the people is a very important thing to think about… The issue is, Why survive? Survive for what? What for? If the Jewish people is 14 million Rabbi Kahanes, I say, Perish the people. If the Jewish people is one individual Dalai Lama, I say, Bring UNESCO, preserve this individual. Because for me the Jewish people is about a values system not about genetics. [Applause]…

And therefore don’t talk to me about having a shelter. Talk to me about having shelter for what. I’m not about demography, I’m not about numbers… My solidarity is not going to the genes of my cousins, if they are bad guys…I know, it doesn’t sound nice.

Deborah asked why he called his cousins bad guys. Burg said:

Listen, if cousins of mine literally speaking are racist, xenophobic, Islamophobic, homophobic, OK, a few other phobias, and I can give you the whole of it. But racists– they are from my point of view, they are genetic Jews but I don’t have any partnership with them. If somebody, my next door neighbor, might be an Arab, might be the educator of my grandchildren, who is pluralistic, tolerant, humanist, who comes to her position from her Islam not Judaism– she is my partner. [More applause]

He went on to say that the nation state had two competing models, the French one, the nation is a common denominator of cultural and civil understandings, versus the German one, based on blood.

When you ask today a Jew in Israel, what is the nation, unfortunately too many of my cousins will say it is about the Jewish blood. To me being Jewish is not about blood system. So for me the idea of shelter for the like-my-blood brothers and sisters is not valid.

Deborah said, “You need to think about the majority of the people– how you are going to explain it.”

Burg shook his head. “I’m sorry, Deborah, I’m a minority. I’m not trying to explain anything, I’m telling you what I feel.”

She said, “It’s not going to make it easy.”

And she’s right.

P.S. Burg said that Israel has only ever executed one person, Adolf Eichmann, in 1962. Many human rights groups would dispute this claim.

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About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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195 Responses

  1. Steve Grover
    Steve Grover
    February 28, 2018, 1:35 pm

    “I’m 4000 years old Jew and most of my history, I didn’t have airplanes, denied nuclear bombs, denied paratroopers, denied a state, and I survived nicely. Israel, you are 70 years old, and you have the mightiest army ever in the world and every day you are afraid the state of Israel will perish. What is wrong with you Israelis?”
    Give me a friggin’ break! The rest of the world didn’t have ’em either. Exactly why Israel and the United States will survive and I have no fear of the survival of these 2 countries.

    • annie
      annie
      February 28, 2018, 2:14 pm

      I have no fear of the survival of these 2 countries.

      so let’s take jewish fear and jewish handwringing off the table. i can agree with that.

      • Steve Grover
        Steve Grover
        February 28, 2018, 2:57 pm

        No reason for Jewish fear because we have Israel.

      • eljay
        eljay
        February 28, 2018, 3:01 pm

        || Annie Robbins: … so let’s take jewish fear and jewish handwringing off the table. i can agree with that. ||

        Can’t do that just yet. Zionist assertions that the “Jewish State” will last a Thousand Years are offset by Zionist counter-assertions that the “Jewish State” is existentially threatened and/or demographically threatened and/or on the verge of being wiped off the map and pushed into the sea.

      • Keith
        Keith
        February 28, 2018, 5:54 pm

        STEVE GROVER- “No reason for Jewish fear because we have Israel.”

        Israel is dependent upon the Diaspora for its survival, at least in its present form. Besides, you savor your perceived victimhood, to have your cake and eat it too.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 28, 2018, 6:20 pm

        “No reason for Jewish fear because we have Israel.” “Steve Grover”

        “Forget about it. What am I, a shelter? I’m not there for you… I’m not living my life for you to come there just in case of an emergency….”

        “Avraham Burg”

      • Steve Grover
        Steve Grover
        February 28, 2018, 6:25 pm

        Eljay,
        You gotta give up on dream of being a Rottenführer in the SS. The war ended in ’45. It is really uncool to be an anti-Semite. Although you don’t get that impression here at Mondoweiss.

      • Marnie
        Marnie
        February 28, 2018, 11:53 pm

        I’m 4000 years old Jew and most of my history, I didn’t have airplanes, denied nuclear bombs, denied paratroopers, denied a state, and I survived nicely. Israel, you are 70 years old, and you have the mightiest army ever in the world and every day you are afraid the state of Israel will perish. What is wrong with you Israelis?

        Sovereignty has very little to do with guaranteeing the future of the Jewish people…. The survival of the people is a very important thing to think about… The issue is, Why survive? Survive for what? What for? If the Jewish people is 14 million Rabbi Kahanes, I say, Perish the people. If the Jewish people is one individual Dalai Lama, I say, Bring UNESCO, preserve this individual. Because for me the Jewish people is about a values system not about genetics. [Applause]…

        And therefore don’t talk to me about having a shelter. Talk to me about having shelter for what. I’m not about demography, I’m not about numbers… My solidarity is not going to the genes of my cousins, if they are bad guys…I know, it doesn’t sound nice. ” Actually it sounds great, it sounds real and it sounds RIGHT.

        Grover you don’t have jackshit. ‘israel’ is a paranoid, dangerous place for everyone, in and out of it’s yet to be defined borders. We have a violent bloodthirsty government with nuclear weapons. Because of ‘israel’ everyone lives in fear.

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 1, 2018, 7:44 am

        || Steve Grover: Eljay,
        You gotta give up on dream of being a Rottenführer in the SS. The war ended in ’45. It is really uncool to be an anti-Semite. … ||

        There’s something horribly wrong with your Zionist mind for it to equate my belief in the universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality with Nazism.

        Anyway, I’ll keep doing what I’m doing while you, unfortunately, keep working to undermine international laws and human rights and the protections they are meant to afford all people including your fellow Jews.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 1, 2018, 6:17 pm

        Pretty funny the way American Zionists insist on knowing more about Israel than Israelis do.

      • Eva Smagacz
        Eva Smagacz
        March 2, 2018, 3:40 pm

        Steve Grover, you said

        Eljay,
        You gotta give up on dream of being a Rottenführer in the SS.

        It is even more “uncool” to be so devoid of arguments, and devoid of abilities to employ them, that one must immediately use personal attacks . Please show me one racist comment by Eljay. Not “neo-anti-Semitic” but racist against Jews comment.

        104/115

    • Keith
      Keith
      February 28, 2018, 5:47 pm

      STEVE GROVER- ” Exactly why Israel and the United States will survive and I have no fear of the survival of these 2 countries.”

      Well, you should. The nuclear weapons which the US/Israel empire have and threaten to use (all options are on the table) could end human life on planet earth. And it is the US and Israel which are the main obstacles to eliminating nuclear weapons.

      • March 1, 2018, 10:27 am

        Actually, Steve, it’s gotten a lot cooler.

        How old are you?!?!?

      • Misterioso
        Misterioso
        March 1, 2018, 2:51 pm

        @Steve Grover

        “No reason for Jewish fear because we have Israel.”

        You may “have Israel,” but it is abundantly clear that increasing numbers of Jews do not want Israel.

        To wit:

        Why Jews flee to Europe (or at least half of it)
        By Doug Saunders,
        Canada’s Globe and Mail, November 16, 2013
        EXCERPTS:
        “Have you heard about Europe’s Jewish exodus? Amid growing tensions and tough economic conditions, tens of thousands of educated middle-class Jews are fleeing every year – not out of the continent, but rather from Israel into Europe, and especially to Germany, which has become the chief destination (after the United States) for the half-million Israelis who have left the country amid its much-discussed ‘brain drain.’”

        “European countries are seen by Israelis as stable, egalitarian and safe, while in an Israel governed by hard-line regimes, the zealots and the Orthodox seem destined to prevail. ‘With all due respect,’ Jerusalem Post columnist Susan Hatis Rolef recently wrote, ‘I think it is physically safer for a Jew to live in Berlin these days than in Jerusalem….’”

        “She listed the reasons for the exodus: ‘loss of hope that peace will ever prevail … discomfort with the lack of determination of Israel’s leaders to make a serious effort to separate religion and state … and the feeling that life in Israel frequently feels like life in a pressure cooker.’”

        Times of Israel, June 21/17:
        http://www.timesofisrael.com/devastating-survey-shows-huge-loss-of-israel-support-among-jewish-college-students/

        http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.806869
        EXCERPT:
        “More Israelis Left Israel Than Moved Back in Six Year Record. 16,700 left and 8,500 came back in 2015, the first year since 2009 that more Israelis exited than returned.” By Lior Dattel. Aug 15, 2017, Haaretz.

        https://www.haaretz.com/israel -news/.premium-jewish-agency- chief-warns-young-u-s-jews- more-turned-off-to-israel-1. 5751616
        Haaretz – Jan 22, 2018, by Judy Maltz
        “Young American Jews Increasingly Turning Away From Israel, Jewish Agency Leader Warns”
        “The Jewish Agency’s CEO and director-general called the trend ‘extremely worrisome,’ and said that a new strategy must be undertaken to engage young American Jews with Israel.”

        https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-vast-numbers-of-california-jews-disengaging-from-israel-survey-finds-1.5821675
        Haaretz, Feb. 14/18
        “Vast Numbers of Progressive California Jews Are Disengaging From Israel, Survey Finds.” By Judy Maltz.
        EXCERPT: “Only a minority of young Jews in San Francisco’s Bay Area believe a Jewish state is important and only a third sympathize more with Israel than the Palestinians.”

      • Tuyzentfloot
        Tuyzentfloot
        March 5, 2018, 2:21 pm

        Broadside says:.
        Actually, Steve, it’s gotten a lot cooler.

        How old are you?!?!?

        I’ve been told that if Steve Grover and Mooser ever meet in real life, then the moment they touch hands they will be annihilated in a burst of gamma rays.

  2. eljay
    eljay
    February 28, 2018, 2:39 pm

    … … [Cohen] said: “This is a conversation that when it gets real it gets hard.” …

    I have no doubt that Zionists find it much easier to have conversations in which they pretend that their ideology and the religion-supremacist “Jewish State” construct that sprang from it are just and moral.

  3. annie
    annie
    February 28, 2018, 2:46 pm

    He understands that there are many other people who have a different understanding and different perspective. But he tells his perspective knowing that it’s not the only truth, but this is what he believes and he shares it, and he’s a troublemaker

    what a strange introduction. does Rabbi Roly Matalon preface his own perspectives expressing his understanding they’re not the only truth?

    ‘i share my truths today knowing truth is malleable …. it’s day time but the truth for my brother in china is that it’s night time. and my brother in china is a troublemarker ‘

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      February 28, 2018, 8:41 pm

      ‘i share my truths today knowing truth is malleable …. it’s day time but the truth for my brother in china is that it’s night time. and my brother in china is a troublemaker ‘

      As you expect, I reject this “truth is malleable” line. Conflicting statements cannot both be true. There is no “truth for my brother”. The truth is that when it is daytime in one part of the world, it is night time in another. There is no conflict.

      My brother in China is a bit of a pain, though.

    • Marnie
      Marnie
      February 28, 2018, 11:58 pm

      I have a sister who wrote to me recently about our childhood stating she was claiming ‘her truth’. We don’t have the same version of history either. Her truth sounds like BS and total fabrication compared to what I remember. Truth to her is apparently very malleable and it makes me angry and ultimately sad.

      I keep thinking of Kellyanne Conway and her notion of ‘alternative facts’.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 1, 2018, 7:22 pm

        This loose talk about “my truth” is just a way for people to cling to their beliefs because they dare not face the possibility that their beliefs are not true.

        (I, of course, believe that all my beliefs are true – otherwise I would not believe them – but that belief may not be true. If it isn’t, it is probably the only one that isn’t true.)

  4. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    February 28, 2018, 2:49 pm

    This is what it is all about imo :

    “The issue is, Why survive? Survive for what? What for? If the Jewish people is 14 million Rabbi Kahanes, I say, Perish the people. If the Jewish people is one individual Dalai Lama, I say, Bring UNESCO, preserve this individual. Because for me the Jewish people is about a values system not about genetics. [Applause]…

    And therefore don’t talk to me about having a shelter. Talk to me about having shelter for what. I’m not about demography, I’m not about numbers… My solidarity is not going to the genes of my cousins, if they are bad guys…I know, it doesn’t sound nice.”

    If Judaism is reduced to being an asshole, Judaism is pointless. The Old Testament is full of challenges from God. Now it is as if God has put the Palestinian challenge before her people. And Israel has failed utterly. It is not about kashrut. It is about values.

  5. Nathan
    Nathan
    February 28, 2018, 3:41 pm

    Something quite basic is missing in Mr Burg’s post-Zionist vision (as presented here): Do the Palestinians agree to end the conflict on the basis of a “one-state solution entailing federated Jewish and Palestinian political entities”? Obviously, it is very interesting to read about a proposal that give us a novel approach to conflict-solving. However, it would be nice to hear an evaluation regarding the possibility that the Palestinians would accept such a proposal and declare that the conflict has been resolved.

    According to the article, Mr Burg is calling for the end of the Jewish state. However we learn that he suggests a “one-state solution entailing federated Jewish and Palestinian political entities”. The federation of a Jewish political entity and a Palestinian political entity means that, nevertheless, there will be a Jewish political entity. What’s the difference between a “Jewish state” and a “Jewish political entity”? There is no difference. Even though the Jewish political entity in Palestine is not an independent state – nevertheless, it determines that the Jews have a distinct political identity, and this identity has a geographic point of reference (Palestine). So, what is the difference between Burg’s “post-Zionism” and just regular Zionism? There’s no difference. I’ll have to get a hold of the book, of course – but as the issue is presented here, it seems that it hasn’t been thought out too clearly. The anti-Zionists (and the Arabs) who reject the legitimacy of the Jewish state will reject the legitimacy of the “Jewish political entity” within the framework of a Jewish-Palestinian federation.

    It should be added that “Jewish” is parallel to “Palestinian”. In other words, it’s obvious that “Jewish” refers to the Jewish people, just as “Palestinian” refers to the Palestinian people. It’s amazing that no one has protested the defining of the Jews as a peoplehood (parallel to the Palestinians). Mr Burg’s proposal (as presented here in Mondoweiss) assumes as self-evident that the Jews are a people with a legitimate political agenda in Palestine.

    • Maghlawatan
      Maghlawatan
      February 28, 2018, 3:58 pm

      What’s the difference between a “Jewish state” and a “Jewish political entity”

      No apartheid
      No Jews torturing Palestinians
      No Jews bombing Palestinians
      No Palestinians in Israeli jails
      No home demolitions
      No checkpoints

    • MHughes976
      MHughes976
      February 28, 2018, 4:45 pm

      I find it a bit difficult to see how Burg’s federation is to be constituted. If there are two substates with boundaries, where are those boindaries to be? If you say ‘on the Green Line’ you are still advocating gross unfairness to the Palestinians – which they would always resent to a degree that would surely undermine the federation. He seems to see Jews in basically religious terms, saying that ‘Jewish and democratic’ means something like ‘theocratic and democratic’ – a perception not shared by everyone. But if the idea were fully thought out it would be interesting to see how Palestinians would react.

    • Keith
      Keith
      February 28, 2018, 6:07 pm

      NATHAN- “… Do the Palestinians agree to end the conflict on the basis of a “one-state solution entailing federated Jewish and Palestinian political entities”?”

      The power relations are sufficiently asymmetrical that the Palestinians have little say in the matter. Besides, their opinion will be influenced by having the Israeli boot on their necks. If Israel wanted a reasonably just resolution of the conflict, they have the power to make it happen. Unfortunately, the ideology of Zionism and Classical Judaism won’t permit Gentiles in the Land of Israel unless under the control of Zionist Jews.

      • Nathan
        Nathan
        March 1, 2018, 2:03 pm

        Keith – It’s absolutely not true that Israel has the power to resolve the conflict. Although the Palestinians are the weaker side of the conflict, they nevertheless have the power to define the parameters of peace. A peace arrangement cannot be forced upon them. The conflict will end only when the Palestinian side declares that “it’s over and we have no further grievances”.

        Do the Palestinians agree to end the conflict on the basis of a “one-state solution entailing federated Jewish and Palestinian political entities”? That is a legitimate question, and it surely should have been raised in the above article. If the Palestinians reject the idea of a federation with the Jews, then there’s no point in debating the idea. We should be debating ideas and proposals that the Palestinians would accept as the formula for ending the conflict once and for all.

      • annie
        annie
        March 1, 2018, 2:09 pm

        Palestinians … have the power to define the parameters of peace… The conflict will end only when the Palestinian side declares that “it’s over and we have no further grievances”.

        nathan, what planet are you on. palestinians could define the parameters of peace til the cows come home and it won’t end the occupation. can you just stop w/this nonsense.

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 1, 2018, 2:20 pm

        || Nathan: … Although the Palestinians are the weaker side of the conflict, they nevertheless have the power to define the parameters of peace. … The conflict will end only when the Palestinian side declares that “it’s over and we have no further grievances”. … ||

        Wow, so all the Palestinians have to do is…
        – define the parameters of peace; and
        – declare “it’s over and we have no further grievances”,
        …and Zionists will willingly…
        – accept those parameters; and
        – end the conflict accordingly.

        The only thing more impressive than this assertion is how quickly you’ll waffle and backtrack on it.

        || … We should be debating ideas and proposals that the Palestinians would accept as the formula for ending the conflict once and for all. ||

        I’m blown away: You managed to do it within the same post!

      • Keith
        Keith
        March 1, 2018, 4:41 pm

        NATHAN- “Keith – It’s absolutely not true that Israel has the power to resolve the conflict.”

        They have the power to implement the changes which would probably lead to a reasonable solution. For starters, they can and should end the siege of Gaza and stop “mowing the lawn.” International law and common decency requires this in any event. Does it really require a stretch of your imagination to accept the reality that a peace and reconciliation process would be greatly facilitated by the stronger party ceasing to treat the weaker party like garbage? Of course, that would require a fundamental change in the Zionist ideology where non-Jews are considered less than human, the evil other.

    • eljay
      eljay
      February 28, 2018, 6:35 pm

      || Nathan: … According to the article, Mr Burg is calling for the end of the Jewish state. However we learn that he suggests a “one-state solution entailing federated Jewish and Palestinian political entities”. … I’ll have to get a hold of the book, of course – but as the issue is presented here, it seems that it hasn’t been thought out too clearly. … ||

      If Mr. Burg is indeed suggesting replacing one form of Jewish supremacism with a different form of Jewish supremacism, I agree that “it seems that it hasn’t been thought out too clearly”.

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        February 28, 2018, 9:09 pm

        eljay: If Mr. Burg is indeed suggesting replacing one form of Jewish supremacism with a different form of Jewish supremacism, I agree that “it seems that it hasn’t been thought out too clearly”.
        ———————————–

        A political entity can retain a national character without necessarily being supremacist.

        You yourself have forcefully affirmed in the past that a Jewish-majority state could maintain a Jewish national-cultural character while ceasing to be a “Jewish supremacist” state.

        Of course, to do that, it would have to adopt a fully democratic, non-discriminatory state. Something which Israel has never been willing to do.

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 1, 2018, 7:40 am

        || Sibiriak: … A political entity can retain a national character without necessarily being supremacist. … ||

        I agree. But I don’t know that that’s what Mr. Burg is advocating, which is why I started off my previous comment with an “if”.

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        March 1, 2018, 11:06 am

        eljay: t I don’t know that that’s what Mr. Burg is advocating, which is why I started off my previous comment with an “if”.
        ———————————-

        Well, if he’s advocating a fascist state, then I’m against that.

    • Sibiriak
      Sibiriak
      February 28, 2018, 8:45 pm

      Nathan: [Burg] suggests a “one-state solution entailing federated Jewish and Palestinian political entities”. The federation of a Jewish political entity and a Palestinian political entity means that, nevertheless, there will be a Jewish political entity. What’s the difference between a “Jewish state” and a “Jewish political entity”? There is no difference.
      —————————–
      A “federation of a Jewish political entity and a Palestinian entity” means a single multi-national state. “A Jewish state” means a nation-state for the/a Jewish people. There’s a huge difference between a nation-state and a national political entity within a state.

      • March 1, 2018, 9:21 am

        In Canada, we have two official languages and special privileges and status for our First Nations people (who rightfully continue to fight for land rights and other covenants).

        There are a number of ways in which the Palestinians and Jewish Israelis can come together to celebrate their differences and similarities in one nation with equal rights for all.

      • Nathan
        Nathan
        March 4, 2018, 10:36 pm

        No, Sibiriak, there is no difference between a “Jewish state” and a “Jewish political entity”. The topic at hand is the conflict between Jews and Arabs. In the Arab point of view, the Jews are not a national group – so, it wouldn’t make a bit of difference if there is a Jewish nation-state or if there is a Jewish national political entity within a single multi-national state. The conflict would remain the very same conflict. Mr Burg has raised an idea based on total unfamiliarity with the Arab grievance. I would imagine that he hasn’t ever read a single book in Arabic.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        March 5, 2018, 3:52 am

        No, Sibiriak, there is no difference between a “Jewish state” and a “Jewish political entity”

        In the English language, not to mention all others, the two are never the same identical concept, as one is a subclass of the other. We needed this most clueless of all Z commenters on MW, hands down, to claim a Jewish exception to human language.

        That wasn’t the most delirious spot of his delirious rant, though, there’s more next:

        The topic at hand is the conflict between Jews and Arabs

        The Bessarabia Jews are in conflict with the Mauretanian Arabs? Is anyone speaking Arabic as a mother tongue automatically in litigation with anyone of the many-tasselled Mosaic faith? Strange. One hears a lot of nonsense about the clash of civilizations but this beats all.

        In the Arab point of view, the Jews are not a national group

        Sooo, here is the “reason”: people with Arabic as a mother tongue do not view a religious group made from hundreds of different nationalities, ethnicities, tribes, etc., and whose single common characteristic is active religious observance, as a “national group”. This means that if your native language is not Arabic then you necessarily recognize this religious observance as a “nation”.

        This Zguy among all others is really more deserving of pity than censure.

    • Sibiriak
      Sibiriak
      February 28, 2018, 8:57 pm

      Nathan: Even though the Jewish political entity in Palestine is not an independent state – nevertheless, it determines that the Jews have a distinct political identity, and this identity has a geographic point of reference (Palestine). So, what is the difference between Burg’s “post-Zionism” and just regular Zionism? There’s no difference.
      ———————————————

      “Regular Zionism” in practice sought an independent, fully sovereign Jewish state, not merely Jewish national political entity within a larger state.

      But you make a good point. A multi-national state containing Jews with collective national rights or a separate fully democratic Jewish-majority state along side a Palestinian state– both of these could reasonably be construed as being forms of liberal Zionism, i.e. liberal nationalism.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        March 1, 2018, 1:38 am

        Sibiriak,

        both of these could reasonably be construed as being forms of liberal Zionism, i.e. liberal nationalism

        Of course, and not only “could be construed”; they are it.

        This doesn’t complete the discussion, though. Even disregarding the separate invader-state monstrosity and even without collective national rights, i.e. on a modern, democratic individual basis, imposing the presence of undesirable invader offspring makes it a Crusader State. No way out of that.

  6. lonely rico
    lonely rico
    February 28, 2018, 5:25 pm

    > Nathan

    Do the Palestinians agree to end the conflict on the basis of a “one-state solution entailing federated Jewish and Palestinian political entities”?

    Good question Nathan.

    Why don’t you ask them ?

    • oldgeezer
      oldgeezer
      February 28, 2018, 8:59 pm

      @lonely rico

      Like all supremacists he would answer for them. He would pick a bunch of isolated incidents or facts and then advise us, based up his superior intellect and analytical skills, what the Palestinian response would be. You see this from the rabid racist zionists all the time.

      They have no interest in asking. There is always a risk that the answer might one which wouldn’t permit them to continue with oppressing people not of the tribe and stealing their property. Too high a cost give secular zionists historical attachment to religious places and icons. As if…

    • Nathan
      Nathan
      March 1, 2018, 2:52 pm

      lonely rico – I think that someone who proposes a “one-state solution entailing federated Jewish and Palestinian political entities” should give us an evaluation regarding the possibility of its acceptance. Surely, the author of the above article should have raised the issue – instead of focusing on the outlook of Deborah.

      In my opinion, the Palestinians will not accept the “one-state solution entailing federated Jewish and Palestinian political entities” if this arrangement is final (i.e. it’s the end of conflict and there are no further grievances). They might accept the arrangement if it’s not final (i.e. the conflict continues within the single state, because there are further Palestinian grievances which will remain unresolved). The Palestinians reject the very idea of a Jewish state, and so they will reject the idea of a “Jewish political entity” as well. In both cases (a Jewish state and a “Jewish political entity”), the Jews are defined as a collective whose homeland is Palestine – so, it’s the very same conflict from the Palestinian point of view.

      Whenever one wishes to end a conflict, one must first define the reason of conflict. After defining the reason of conflict, one must propose a solution that solves that very reason of conflict. If this conflict was born because sadly there was no federation of Jewish and Palestinian political entities, then Mr Burg’s proposal hits the nail on the head, and we should all praise him for his incredible insight.

  7. Keith
    Keith
    February 28, 2018, 5:35 pm

    PHIL- (quote)- “Deborah said, “I’m talking about history repeating itself. It may be fiction to you, but it’s history repeating itself.”

    A core belief of Jewish Zionists is that assimilation is both undesirable and dangerous. Anti-Semitism is always present, waiting to manifest itself. Non-Jews are believed to have an innate desire to kill Jews. All Gentiles, everywhere and for all time. The inherent anti-Gentilism of such a belief system is not recognized, perhaps cannot be conceived. This is a return to the ideology of medieval (Classical) Judaism in secular form, a fundamentalist ideology immune to rational thought. Victimhood as an organizational dynamic. A softer version is the basis for kinship solidarity.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      February 28, 2018, 8:45 pm

      If they assimilate they will cease to be Jews. If they do not assimilate they will be persecuted by Gentiles.

      Both of these are regarded as Bad Things. I, as you know, keep asking, “Why is it bad to stop being Jews?”

      • Keith
        Keith
        March 1, 2018, 12:52 am

        ROHA- “If they assimilate they will cease to be Jews.”

        There is a difference to being a Jew versus being Jewish. Identifying as being a Jew implies a certain tribal solidarity. Being Jewish merely implies adhering to the Judaic religion and/or identifying with certain ethnic criteria. Being a Zionist Jew implies an adversarial relationship with all non-Jews.

      • jon s
        jon s
        March 1, 2018, 10:30 am

        Roha, it’s entierly understandable and natural for people to value their heritage, traditions and identity and to want to pass them on to future generations, rather than seeing them disappear.

        Which reminds me: Happy Purim to all those celebrating!

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 1, 2018, 12:29 pm

        || jon s: … it’s entierly understandable and natural for people to value their heritage, traditions and identity and to want to pass them on to future generations…

        Which reminds me: Happy Purim to all those celebrating! ||

        What a strange segue…
        – from explaining the desire to value heritage and traditions and pass them on;
        – to wishing a happy celebration of the deliberate massacre by Jews of over 75,000 non-Jews.

      • jon s
        jon s
        March 1, 2018, 1:30 pm

        Eljay,
        So now you have a problem with a popular Jewish holiday?
        It’s a holiday which commemorates a story in which the Jews avoided genocide and succesfully defended themselves. In practice it’s a happy, kid-friendly, carnival-style holiday.

      • Yitzgood
        Yitzgood
        March 1, 2018, 5:24 pm

        to wishing a happy celebration of the deliberate massacre by Jews of over 75,000 non-Jews

        That’s right, we’ll be singing those traditional Purim songs: “75,000 smiles on my face,” “We love death,” and “No accidental massacres for us.” Freilechen Purim!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 1, 2018, 6:35 pm

        ” it’s entierly understandable and natural for people to value their heritage, traditions and identity and to want to pass them on to future generations, rather than seeing them disappear.” “Jon s”

        And that is exactly why the Third Temple and Casino must, and will, be built. So Jewish heritage, tradition and identity will once again be passed on.

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 1, 2018, 6:59 pm

        || jon s: Eljay,
        So now you have a problem with a popular Jewish holiday? … ||

        I didn’t say I had a problem with the holiday. I said that your segue was strange.

        || … It’s a holiday which commemorates a story in which the Jews avoided genocide and succesfully defended themselves. … ||

        And massacred over 75,000 people. I get it.

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 1, 2018, 7:02 pm

        || Yitzchak Goodman: … That’s right, we’ll be singing those traditional Purim songs: “75,000 smiles on my face,” “We love death,” and “No accidental massacres for us.” Freilechen Purim! ||

        I guess there’s no better way to value heritage, traditions and identity and to want to pass them on to future generations than in song during a happy, kid-friendly, carnival-style holiday.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 1, 2018, 7:15 pm

        “Roha, it’s entierly understandable and natural for people to value their heritage, traditions and identity and to want to pass them on to future generations, rather than seeing them disappear.”

        I can’t tell whether or not it is natural, but, when passing on those traditions, etc., is tantamount to pinning a “Persecute me” label onto the children, the wise move would be to abandon those traditions. So, given the assumption of minimal common sense among Jews, either Jews do not actually believe that they will be persecuted just for being Jews, or they believe that to stop being Jews is so bad that it outweighs the misery of the persecution.

        And that brings me back to my original question. Why is it so bad?

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        March 1, 2018, 8:46 pm

        eljay: I didn’t say I had a problem with the holiday.
        ————————————

        C’mon. Own up to it.

      • Yitzgood
        Yitzgood
        March 1, 2018, 9:04 pm

        I didn’t say I had a problem with the holiday. I said that your segue was strange.

        Your point involved reducing the holiday to nothing more than glee over someone’s death. I hope I’m spared the eljay take on Passover

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        March 1, 2018, 10:53 pm

        Roha

        I think it goes back to how Jewish identity is constructed. It is exclusive. The enemy is assimilation, being like the goys. The strength of the identity is good for business opportunity development. There tends to be a danse macabre with debt . This always ends badly. Leadership is atrocious. There is no quality control. Human societies are unstable and when it falls apart the goys need a target. It is a slow motion car crash.

        https://youtu.be/qT6XCvDUUsU

      • jon s
        jon s
        March 2, 2018, 12:58 am

        Eljay,
        I would’t take the number 75,000, like other population figures in the bible, too seriously.
        Even if we assume that the number is accurate, they were not innocent people.

      • annie
        annie
        March 2, 2018, 1:27 am

        Even if we assume that the number is accurate, they were not innocent people.

        the possible 75K? how so? (and that is a serious question, i don’t know much about the holiday except what wiki says)

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 2, 2018, 8:07 am

        || Sibiriak: … C’mon. Own up to it. ||

        What do you want me to “own up to”? I admit that there are many things in life I am unable to appreciate and one of those things is the celebration of an event that involves the deliberate massacre of over 75,000 individuals. But I have no problem with the fact that the “popular Jewish holiday” of Purim exists or that Jews celebrate it. That’s their business.

        || Yitzchak Goodman: Your point involved reducing the holiday to nothing more than glee over someone’s death. … ||

        Consider my point a counter-point to jon s’ sanitization of mass murder committed by Jews.

        || … I hope I’m spared the eljay take on Passover … ||

        I hope I’m spared your disturbing take that Jews sing songs extolling the joys of murder.

        || jon s: Eljay,
        I would’t take the number 75,000, like other population figures in the bible, too seriously.
        Even if we assume that the number is accurate, they were not innocent people. ||

        So…the detailed description of the massacre of over 75,000 people should not be taken seriously, but the comparably vague claim that every single person who was massacred deserved to die should be taken seriously. Interesting.

        Anyway, I have nothing else to add to this discussions, so I’ll just sign off with the following words of wisdom:
        Be excellent to each other. And… PARTY ON, DUDES!  :-)

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 2, 2018, 9:10 am

        “Your point involved reducing the holiday to nothing more than glee over someone’s death.”

        There may be more to the holiday than glee over deaths, but it does seem questionable to create a happy, carnival holiday from an event which involved the deliberate killing of 75,000 people. Even if they weren’t innocent. It looks like a form of gloating. And, yes, the same can be said of Passover, which celebrates the God of the Jews killing some children while leaving others alive.

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 2, 2018, 10:45 am

        || eljay: … but the comparably vague claim … ||

        Correction: … but the comparatively vague claim …

      • Yitzgood
        Yitzgood
        March 2, 2018, 10:53 am

        And, yes, the same can be said of Passover, which celebrates the God of the Jews killing some children while leaving others alive

        And Paul Robeson was wrong to record “Go down, Moses”?

      • Steve Grover
        Steve Grover
        March 2, 2018, 11:36 am

        Whilst on the subject of Purim. All the hatred of Israel and hatred of the Jewish people and religion that is spewed by Mondoweiss and its fans is drowned out by the cheapest and shoddiest built grogger.

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 2, 2018, 11:53 am

        || Steve Grover: … cheapest and shoddiest built grogger. ||

        At first glance that phrase read “cheapest and shoddiest built grover”. Go figure.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        March 2, 2018, 12:11 pm

        John S,

        I would’t take the number 75,000, like other population figures in the bible, too seriously.
        Even if we assume that the number is accurate, they were not innocent people.

        You know, Johnny S, nobody takes population figures from the lying Zionists too seriously. Not even themselves.

        Even if we assume that the number of Zionist invaders just like your good self are accurate, they sure aren’t innocent people.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 2, 2018, 12:21 pm

        ” I hope I’m spared the eljay take on Passover”

        Spin your “shoddily built grogger” and maybe you can drown it out.

        “Goodman”, it never occurred to you that Jewish Holidays might begin to look different after the triumph of Zionism? And that Judaism will not be able to control the process?

        “And Paul Robeson was wrong to record “Go down, Moses”?”

        And, you poor little nebbish, that’s so not the way to try and control it.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        March 2, 2018, 1:35 pm

        RoHa,

        it does seem questionable to create a happy, carnival holiday from an event which involved the deliberate killing of 75,000 people. Even if they weren’t innocent. It looks like a form of gloating. And, yes, the same can be said of Passover, which celebrates the God of the Jews killing some children while leaving others alive

        Tsk, tsk. Shame on you Infidels for slandering the pious, albeit wholesome celebration by the faithful of the destruction of their competition by divine favoritism, a miraculous manifestation of the basic dogma of Tribal Chosenness.
        A concept that is aptly summarized here by some later practitioners of it:
        http://www.flaggenparadies.de/images/product_images/info_images/stahlhelm_2036.jpg

      • Yitzgood
        Yitzgood
        March 2, 2018, 4:18 pm

        Me: I hope I’m spared the eljay take on Passover.

        Mooser: Spin your “shoddily built grogger” and maybe you can drown it out.

        Me: That wasn’t my phrase, but maybe you thought it was too catchy not to use somewhere.

        Mooser: “Goodman”, it never occurred to you that Jewish Holidays might begin to look different after the triumph of Zionism? And that Judaism will not be able to control the process?

        Me: Why do you address me as if I was Herzl in a previous life? Anyway, the value I would like to see triumph in the world is know what you are talking about or shut up.

        Me: And Paul Robeson was wrong to record “Go down, Moses”?

        Mooser: And, you poor little nebbish, that’s so not the way to try and control it.

        Me: Can you actually address the point?

      • Keith
        Keith
        March 2, 2018, 4:35 pm

        STEVE GROVER- “All the hatred of Israel and hatred of the Jewish people and religion….”

        A textbook example of projection.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 2, 2018, 6:59 pm

        “Anyway, the value I would like to see triumph in the world is know what you are talking about or shut up”

        And the latter alternative is always available to you, “Goodman”. And you can go away triumphant.
        Or did you have shutting somebody else up in mind?
        In that case, you’ll just go away mad.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 2, 2018, 7:27 pm

        ,” i don’t know much about the holiday”

        Poppy-seed filled pastries. They’re pretty good, but can give a false positive on a drug tests in rare cases, depends on metabolism. That’s the whole megillah, right there.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 2, 2018, 8:07 pm

        ‘And Paul Robeson was wrong to record “Go down, Moses”?’

        Insofar as the song is a celebration of the divine mass infanticide, probably.

        But Robeson’s failings do not make the Jewish holidays any less morally questionable.

      • jon s
        jon s
        March 4, 2018, 10:50 am

        Annie,
        || the possible 75K? how so? (and that is a serious question, i don’t know much about the holiday except what wiki says)||

        The holiday is certainly the most fun-oriented Jewish holiday, if you’re ever invited to a Purim party, you’ll see what I mean.

        As to biblical population figures sometimes you get the feeling that the author wants to say “a whole lot of people” and throws out a figure. For example, Exodus 12:37 gives the number 600,000 for those departing Egypt, counting only able-bodied men. Assuming a similar number of women , and ,say, 2 children per family , and the non-Israelites who supposedly went with them, it would mean 2-3 million. Rather far-fetched.

      • annie
        annie
        March 4, 2018, 11:53 am

        jon, i meant how were they all (or most of them) not innocent.

  8. rhkroell
    rhkroell
    February 28, 2018, 8:19 pm

    Great article, Phil, almost as enlightening as David Sheen’s THE EMMETT TILL EFFECT IN ISRAEL (2/27/18).

    I’d like to see anti-Zionists, “liberal” Zionists and everyone else — I’m by no means convinced that “liberal” Zionist(s) is a valid designation — focus more on the fact that Zionists reject in both theory and practice Christian humanist, Reform Judaism, Muslim and secular versions of universal brotherhood, maintaining that human antagonism (as opposed to cooperation or collaboration) is absolutely essential to human achievement (as Theodor Herzl argued in DER JUDENSTAAT [THE JEWISH STATE] (1896).

    This rejection of the concept of universal brotherhood is one of the cornerstones of contemporary neoconservative political theory, something derived from the Prussian theories of international statecraft: Realpolitik and Machtpolitik. But it is a principal promoted by Henry Kissinger, Zbigniew Brzezinski, and a great many other big names in international relations today. Of course, this adoption of 19th-century Prussian political philosophy/principles conveniently aligns these contemporary “savants” conceptually with Zionist political theory and practice.

    The mere fact that Zionists believe in European colonialism and look with extreme disfavor on the legal concept of universal human rights does not necessarily mean that the brazen ideology of Zionism should be consigned to the archives of some national history museum, I suppose. I mean: there are a few Zionists in the historical record — like Martin Buber, for example — who (apparently) advocated working with the native population to establish a modern social democratic state in which the indigenous peoples would have equal rights with the Jewish immigrants. But that didn’t happen, right?

    In theory, I might believe that Zionism can somehow become disengaged from the ideology of colonialism and reclaimed as an ideology of emancipation, one which can be redeemed through the recognition of the Palestinians’ equal rights, the right of self-determination, and the right of return, but how reasonable is that belief in today’s world?

    • amigo
      amigo
      March 4, 2018, 12:17 pm

      “The holiday is certainly the most fun-oriented Jewish holiday, if you’re ever invited to a Purim party, you’ll see what I mean.”Jon S

      As long as it is not to a house that is the former home of some Palestinian family who were tossed out to make room for an illegal squatter. In good conscience , I could not find the surroundings “fun oriented”.

      If you see what I mean.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 4, 2018, 1:30 pm

        “The holiday is certainly the most fun-oriented Jewish holiday, if you’re ever invited to a Purim party, you’ll see what I mean.”Jon S”

        Uh-oh, I think Mondo’s 8-12 yr. old readership just switched sides. Why, oh why, did the Moderators let “Jon s” reveal just how much darn fun a “Purim party” is.

      • Steve Grover
        Steve Grover
        March 4, 2018, 1:45 pm

        Jon S,
        Don’t pay attention to Mooser. He has never been to a Purim Party or any other party for that matter. With his hundreds of thousands of comments on MW, its always a party of one.

      • jon s
        jon s
        March 4, 2018, 2:58 pm

        amigo,
        For once, I agree with you.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 4, 2018, 4:41 pm

        “Don’t pay attention to Mooser. He has never been to a Purim Party…”

        And there they go. Bye-bye, kids. Enjoy the hamantaschen.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 4, 2018, 4:44 pm

        “amigo,For once, I agree with you.”

        “Jon s” , Beersheba is a settlement.

    • jon s
      jon s
      March 4, 2018, 3:02 pm

      Annie,
      I have to refer you to something I wrote a year ago:
      http://mondoweiss.net/2017/03/support-israel-official/#comment-873476
      See especially point #7.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        March 4, 2018, 5:19 pm

        Show me one time that a United Nations statement or resolution referred to Beersheba as a settlement or occupied territory.

      • amigo
        amigo
        March 4, 2018, 6:02 pm

        Yonah.show me one time that a UN statement or resolution declared Jerusalem as the capital of so called Israel (sans frontiere) as you previously claimed it to be.

        While your at it . Show me one un resolution that defines beersheba as part of israel or that it was legally obtained from the previous inhabitants.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        March 4, 2018, 10:25 pm

        Reb Fredman, learn to read the Latin alphabet already. Read the goddam Charter of the UN.

      • jon s
        jon s
        March 8, 2018, 4:15 pm

        amigo,
        ‘While your at it . Show me one un resolution that defines beersheba as part of israel or that it was legally obtained from the previous inhabitants.’
        That’s easy. UNSC resolution 242 refers to “territories occupied in the recent conflict” (=the 1967 war). Those are the occupied territories. That’s the accepted , conventional ,meaning of the term as it’s used in the context of the I/P conflict.

      • amigo
        amigo
        March 8, 2018, 5:00 pm

        “That’s easy. UNSC resolution 242 refers to “territories occupied in the recent conflict” Jon S

        You forgot (?) this part!!!.

        i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied
        in the recent conflict;.

        Res 338,

        2) Resolution 338 (1973) of 22 October 1973
        The Security Council,
        1. Calls upon all parties to the present fighting to cease all firing
        and terminate all military activity immediately, no later than
        12 hours after the moment of the adoption of this decision, in
        the positions they now occupy;

        2. Calls upon the parties concerned to start immediately after
        the ceasefire the implementation of Security Council resolution
        242 (1967) IN ALL I,T,S PARTS.
        3. Decides that, immediately and concurrently with the ceasefire,
        negotiations shall start between the parties concerned
        under appropriate auspices aimed at establishing a just and
        durable peace in the Middle East.”

        Of course it,s easy if you cherry pick a few words that suit your narrative ( and Yonah,s).

        Now try again and show me a resolution or official decision that makes you a legal resident of the “Occupied Palestinian Territory ) known to you as Beersheba.

        “That’s the accepted , conventional ,meaning of the term as it’s used in the context of the I/P conflict.”jon s

        It is not accepted by those who land was stolen , on which you are squatting.They were not asked.

      • jon s
        jon s
        March 9, 2018, 9:35 am

        Amigo, if Beersheva is not in the occupied territories, it’s not a “settlement”, in the accepted use of the term.
        Resolution 242 refers to occupied territories as those occupied in the 1967war. Therefore it’s not a settlement.

  9. February 28, 2018, 11:03 pm

    Mr. Burg advocated for equal rights in historic Palestine and the two “liberal” rabbis, Matalon and Cohen, tried to distance themselves from him while they enjoyed, and no doubt have promoted, equal rights in America – is there a word for hypocrisy in Hebrew?

    I commend Mr. Burg for his courage and for siding with humanity even if it means being reviled by his Jewish compatriots (see article linked below). I only hope Matalon and Cohen contract the Avraham Burg Syndrome – https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4611393,00.html

  10. Tuyzentfloot
    Tuyzentfloot
    March 1, 2018, 6:19 am

    South Africa had the Apartheid problem and a problem of concentration of power. Mandela succeeded in the Apartheid struggle but failed to challenge the concentration of power and wealth. I don’t know if that was wise of him or which problem was the largest of the two but I’m not going to condemn it outright.
    Israel also has a problem with power/wealth concentration.

  11. Tuyzentfloot
    Tuyzentfloot
    March 1, 2018, 6:22 am

    P.S. Burg said that Israel has only ever executed one person, Adolf Eichmann, in 1962. Many human rights groups would dispute this claim.

    He’s of course exactly right as far as formal executions are concerned.
    As opposed to casual and informal executions that is.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso
      March 1, 2018, 10:39 am

      @Tuyzenfloot

      BINGO!!

    • Brewer
      Brewer
      March 2, 2018, 12:00 am

      The outstanding example being Sheikh Ahmed Ismail Hassan Yassin.
      Yassin, a quadriplegic who was nearly blind, had used a wheelchair since a sporting accident at the age of 12 .
      Israel sent a helicopter gunship that killed him and nine innocent bystanders. His crime?
      He was instrumental in founding a political movement called Hamas.
      According to the Israeli Human Rights organization B’Tselem, which uses data independent of the Israeli military, Israeli targeted killings claimed 425 Palestinian lives between September 2000 and August 2011. It is worthy of note that these targeted executions are accompanied by an equal number of dead bystanders.

  12. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    March 1, 2018, 8:15 am

    Burg exposing that at the core of many Jewish and Christian zionist beliefs lies ethnocentric, racist, Islamophobic, supremacist thinking and prejudicial actions.

    Deborah wants Israel to be a shelter for only Jews. Burg sounds like he wants Palestine/Israel to be a real democracy not an apartheid state.

    • philweiss
      philweiss
      March 1, 2018, 9:22 am

      Thank you for reading this piece of reporting so closely. I am grateful for readers; and am pleased that today our site is useful!

      • Misterioso
        Misterioso
        March 1, 2018, 11:15 am

        Breaking news:

        http://www.dci.plo.ps/en/article/8298/March-1,-2018-PLO-Executive-Committee-Member-Dr-Hanan-Ashrawi-on-the-scheduled-visit-of-His-Royal-Highness-The-Duke-of-Cambridge-to-Palestine

        March 1, 2018: PLO Executive Committee Member Dr. Hanan Ashrawi on the scheduled visit of His Royal Highness The Duke of Cambridge to Palestine

        “’On behalf of the Palestine Liberation Organization Executive Committee and the Palestinian people, we welcome His Royal Highness The Duke of Cambridge on his scheduled visit to Palestine this summer.’

        “‘Prince William, who accepted an invitation from Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, will be a welcome guest, not just of the leadership but of the Palestinian people who will provide him with the opportunity to share their stories first-hand and connect on a human level.
        This trip will also serve to enhance diplomatic and cultural relations between His Royal Highness and the people of Palestine.’”

      • Kathleen
        Kathleen
        March 1, 2018, 12:09 pm

        Your (and team) persistent efforts, commitment and website have moved the justice ball forward in substantive and profound ways. MW folks should be so proud of their efforts. I have promoted your website and the justice work that you all are doing on other websites, media outlets. Thank you folks.

        While the situation on the ground seems to have gotten even worse for Palestinians the facts on the ground have and continue to get out more than ever. Took quite awhile for the apartheid state of South Africa to be exposed and change their ways. I feel hopeful that things will change for Palestinians and for Israeli’s too

        All will be better off when justice is served

  13. Sisyphus
    Sisyphus
    March 1, 2018, 9:02 am

    And Burg concludes with “I’m telling you what I feel”.
    What if standard for the basic human response to the miseries we witness was as simple as ‘fellow feeling’ as opposed to the saccharine and moralizing instruction of religion. Religion seems to get in the way of fellow feeling – in some case it promotes the opposite. In this regard Nietzsche is thought provoking still. For example: “As soon as a religion comes to dominate it has as its opponents all those who would have been its first disciples.” from Nietzsche’s Human, all too Human, s.118.

    See here for more Nietzschean prompts to reflection about the millstone of ‘religion’ : https://www.theperspectivesofnietzsche.com/nietzsche/nchrist.html

    Burg’s conclusion: It is in the realm of impossibility that Israel could ever be a secular state is.

    • jon s
      jon s
      March 1, 2018, 10:42 am

      Joshua Laskin,
      The Hashomer Hatzair movement also advocated a binational state.
      A point that you’re ignoring is that there was no support for that concept from the Arab side: not from the Palestinians, not from the Arab states.
      I also disagree with you statement that the zionists wanted to relocate the Palestinians. By and large, mainstream zionists sought to live in peace with them.

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 1, 2018, 12:02 pm

        || jon s: … I also disagree with you statement that the zionists wanted to relocate the Palestinians. By and large, mainstream zionists sought to live in peace with them. ||

        Yup, nothing says “live in peace with” an indigenous population like occupying and colonizing as much of their territory as possible and establishing in it a religion-supremacist state.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        March 1, 2018, 4:18 pm

        The usual arrogant Zionist:

        The Hashomer Hatzair movement also advocated a binational state.
        A point that you’re ignoring is that there was no support for that concept from the Arab side: not from the Palestinians, not from the Arab states.

        Ohhh yeah. Of course Palestinians and “Arab states” are obliged to support the “concept” of a “binational state” with criminal invaders from the North Pole, the planet Mars, or the US of A, just like John S. Failing which, it is naturally justified to genocide them –that’ll larn them.

      • jon s
        jon s
        March 2, 2018, 12:50 am

        Echi,
        Jews are not invaders in the historic Jewish homeland.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 2, 2018, 1:12 am

        “A point that you’re ignoring is that there was no support for that concept from the Arab side: not from the Palestinians, not from the Arab states.”

        The Palestinians were under no moral or legal obligation to accept a “binational state” wherein one of the “nations” was a bunch of foreign immigrants who had pushed their way into the country.

        (Especially since those immigrants were loudly declaring their intention of taking over the whole country.)

        Nonetheless, in 1947 they did make it clear that they would accept the Jews as legitimate residents in the context of equal rights for all in a secular democratic state in all of Palestine. The PLO held this position in 1968, as well.

        “By and large, mainstream zionists sought to live in peace with them.”

        Where “living in peace” means “buying up land and driving off Palestinian tenant farmers, setting up an alternative society with institutions for the promotion of Jewish interests and from which locals were excluded, and, of course, preparing to create a state in which Palestinians would be, at best, second class citizens.”

      • Peter in SF
        Peter in SF
        March 2, 2018, 4:58 am

        jon s writes:

        Jews are not invaders in the historic Jewish homeland.

        Which makes as much sense as saying that the Crusaders, being Christians, were not invaders in the historic Christian homeland.

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 2, 2018, 7:26 am

        || jon s: … Jews are not invaders in the historic Jewish homeland. ||

        Geographic Palestine is not the “historic homeland” of every person in the world – citizens of homelands all over the world – who choose to embrace the religion-based identity of Jewish.

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        March 2, 2018, 8:24 am

        Historic home land is such a crock. The Jewish presence in the Middle East is enforced at gunpoint . That is all anyone needs to know.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 2, 2018, 9:18 am

        “Jews are not invaders in the historic Jewish homeland.”

        Can you explain what ” historic Jewish homeland ” actually means, and then why modern European Jews cannot be invaders in Palestine? I would love to see the chain of reasoning.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 2, 2018, 12:06 pm

        “Jews are not invaders in the historic Jewish homeland.”

        Caution, Zionist at work! “Jon s” is re-plating his boiler.

        Next, we get

        “Jews cannot be thieves in their historic homeland”.

        I think that’s the line he yells out the window when he steals a Palestinian’s car.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 2, 2018, 12:32 pm

        “Jon s”, why don’t we express the obvious, and say:

        ‘Jews cannot be murderers in the historical Jewish homeland’.

        Sometimes, unfortunately, Jews must kill people in the process of defending their HJH. But that’s not murder, of course.

        And let’s not forget the useful corollaries like: ‘Jews can never be without sufficient resources or population or support to put the Zionist project over’

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 4, 2018, 6:35 pm

        In order to prevail, Zionism needs at least ten million Jews in Palestine, not the 5.5-6.5 million they have now.

      • annie
        annie
        March 5, 2018, 3:24 am

        Zionism needs at least ten million Jews in Palestine

        why not an even dozen?

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        March 5, 2018, 4:45 am

        Annie,

        Because it’s high time to convert to decimal.

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        March 5, 2018, 6:42 am

        Mooser: Zionism needs at least ten million Jews in Palestine…
        —————————

        And Zionism will soon have them:

        Israel’s projected future looks a lot like a visit to the Jerusalem central bus station: crowded and very religious.

        According to a government report to be released in full next week, the Jewish state’s population will double in about 40 years. Some 29 percent — or 5.25 million of its projected 18 million residents — will be haredi Orthodox Jews. That’s more than triple the current 9 percent.

        “Israel will have the highest population density in the Western world,” Sergio DellaPergola, a preeminent Israeli demographer and member of the report’s steering committee, told JTA. “Interestingly, haredim will overtake Arabs as the largest minority.”

        […]Israel is growing rapidly mostly because of its birth rate, which DellaPergola said is the highest of the world’s 100 most developed countries, “some of which aren’t that developed.”

        Once exceptionally fertile, Arab-Israeli women now have an average of 3.13 children, the same as their Jewish fellow citizens. According to the Central Bureau of Statistics report, Arabs will comprise 20 percent of the Israeli population in 2059, compared to the current 21 percent.

        By contrast, the haredi fertility rate has remained steady at 6.9 children per woman.

        https://www.jta.org/2017/05/19/news-opinion/israel-middle-east/israels-demographic-future-crowded-and-very-religious

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 5, 2018, 8:49 am

        || Mooser: In order to prevail, Zionism needs at least ten million Jews in Palestine, not the 5.5-6.5 million they have now. ||

        Does Jewish prevalence require a threshold…
        – number of Jews; or
        – ratio of Jews to non-Jews?

        If the latter, never fear: It seems as though there are plenty of Zionists ready and willing to expel and/or exterminate sufficient non-Jews in order to achieve the required ratio.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 5, 2018, 1:20 pm

        “why not an even dozen?”

        If they can get 12 million. They won’t.
        But the amount they have now is far too few, by several million at least, to bring the project to anything but an unsuccessful, and probably disastrous, conclusion.

  14. Joshua Laskin
    Joshua Laskin
    March 1, 2018, 9:50 am

    The ‘troublemakers’ of early Zionism–the small group called ‘Brit Shalom’ (Covenant of Peace), later ‘Ihud’ (Union), including most notably Martin Buber and Judah Magnes, of Hebrew University–were promoting this same idea: a single, bi-national state, with autonomous-yet-co-dwelling communities of Jews and Arabs. They were seriously hated by most other ‘Palestinian’ Jews, of course, who simply wanted the Arabs to get ‘relocated’ elsewhere. But those few eggheads could clearly see, Jewish hegemony in Palestine wasn’t a long-term sustainable path. After Britain gave up the mandate, Magnes flew to Washington DC and begged Truman to take it up and facilitate transition to a bi-national political order, which the Brits had never wanted to do. But, because Democrats needed the Jewish vote, in NY and Chicago…Truman pissed the chance away. Magnes predicted two centuries of war between Jews and Arabs, in the event of the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine; and, so far, his prediction seems clear-sighted. I guess the take-away is: proclaim your truth, no matter how much abuse is heaped on your head; because, someday, in the far future, people will say, “Yeah, those few nuts, as it turns out, they were actually the wise men, crying in the wilderness.”

    • eljay
      eljay
      March 1, 2018, 10:54 am

      || Joshua Laskin: … Magnes predicted two centuries of war between Jews and Arabs, in the event of the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine … ||

      Which means 800 years of peace for the “Jewish State” if it lasts the Thousand Years Zionists predict it will.

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      March 1, 2018, 3:56 pm

      Laskin,

      Martin Buber and Judah Magnes… were promoting this same idea: a single, bi-national state, with autonomous-yet-co-dwelling communities of Jews and Arabs.

      Yeah, and where is the majority of Palestinians who formally authorized these colonial criminals to illegally settle in Palestine? We are talking about an Austrian and an American! Who the hell invited them, who suddenly got in charge of the sovereignty over Palestine and gave them the right to even go there? Did Truman own Palestine?

      Remember, settling as a colonial is a crime against humanity –slice Zionism any which way, it’s still criminal as all get-out –including your propaganda.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      March 2, 2018, 12:57 am

      Just to prove I haven’t given up.

      “But those few eggheads could clearly see, Jewish hegemony in Palestine wasn’t a long-term sustainable path.”

      The comma should not be there.

      “Magnes predicted two centuries of war between Jews and Arabs, in the event of the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine; and, so far, his prediction seems clear-sighted.”

      The comma between “Arabs” and “in” should not be there. The semi-colon should be a comma.

      “proclaim your truth, no matter how much abuse is heaped on your head; because, someday, in the far future, people will say, …”

      The semi-colon should be a comma.

      By golly, that felt good.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        March 10, 2018, 5:25 am

        RoHa,

        That’s an awful lot of homeland. The rest of us are going to have to squeeze together in the remaining bits of the world.

        In fact, there is precious little remaining for others once Isaac the Good Man’s homeland is off limits for 99.xx% of the population: the South Pole looks like the only safe bet.

        Only, that is, if we can be sure that a couple penguins weren’t converted to what-you-know (it was almost suggested 100 years ago by Anatole France, so someone is sure to claim the South Pole for a Zionist homeland, too.)

    • jon s
      jon s
      March 4, 2018, 3:44 pm

      RoHa,
      First of all I’d like to reverse the question. Can anyone provide a coherent argument that Israel is NOT the Jewish historic homeland?

      But I won’t avoid your challenge and I’ll tell you what I mean by “historic homeland”.

      When I go to Jerusalem I can stop at the Israel Museum –as I’ve done occasionally- and see the famous Dead Sea Scrolls. The centerpiece of the exhibit is the Great Isaiah Scroll. Here I am, A Jew in Israel, who speaks and reads Hebrew, gazing at a scroll written around 125 BCE, in the same country, in the same language that I speak and read by a person who without doubt also self-identified as a Jew. I can stand in front of the scroll and read it, without too much difficulty:

      http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#2:4

      That’s the meaning of “historic homeland”.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        March 4, 2018, 4:27 pm

        Jon, that is not a definition!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 4, 2018, 4:36 pm

        “That’s the meaning of “historic homeland”.”

        And that’s why the Third Temple must be built. No matter what the cost. And woe to those meshamuds who call it a “third armpit”.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 4, 2018, 5:05 pm

        “Jon, that is not a definition!”

        Actually, I think it is. There is an historical and religious interest for Jews in the land of Palestine.
        It confers no rights, not a one. “Jon s” has shown us exactly what a shallow pretense it is.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 4, 2018, 5:15 pm

        “First of all I’d like to reverse the question. Can anyone provide a coherent argument that Israel is NOT the Jewish historic homeland?”

        So because Jews have a an undefined “historical interest” in the place gives them what rights?

        All you are doing, “Jon s” is exposing your deep-rooted bigotries; that even sentimental or “historical” Jewish interests trump Palestinian “interests” (like staying where they are, in possession of the land). And Jewish interests certainly must supersede the interests and lives of the people to whom Palestine is a PRESENT homeland.
        But it’s very hard for you to imagine anybody would place those interests on a level with the interests of Zionists, isn’t it?

        “Jon s”, like the rest, has an absurd belief that the world is unquestioningly, reflexively, philo-semitic, and will accede to any demand made “because the Jews”.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 4, 2018, 8:50 pm

        “I’d like to reverse the question. Can anyone provide a coherent argument that Israel is NOT the Jewish historic homeland?”

        That’s silly. Until I know what “historic homeland” means, how can I tell whether such an argument exists?

        “I’ll tell you what I mean by “historic homeland”.

        I was hoping for a formal definition, not an anecdote. I’ll see what I can extract.

        If person X regards self as having religion/ideology/”identity” Y, and is in a place Z anciently inhabited people who also had r/i/”i” Y, and visits an institution wherein there are writings produced by those ancient people, and is able to read those writings, then Z is the historic homeland of X and all other people who have r/i/”i” Y.

        (So, assuming I am a committed Confucian rather than just an admirer of Confucian philosophy, and I go to the Temple of Confucius in Shandong and read, with some difficulty, the stelae* in the grounds there, then Shandong is the historic homeland of all Confucians, including me.)

        OK. So how do you proceed from there to “Modern European Jews cannot be invaders of Palestine”?

        (*The ones in Chinese. I can’t make head or tail of those in Manchu or Mongolian.)

      • Yitzgood
        Yitzgood
        March 4, 2018, 10:25 pm

        Can you explain what ” historic Jewish homeland ” actually means

        There is Wikipedia entry on the word “homeland.” It begins as follows:

        A homeland (rel.[clarification needed] country of origin and native land) is the concept of the place (cultural geography) with which an ethnic group holds a long history and a deep cultural association – the country in which a particular national identity began.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeland

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 5, 2018, 1:52 am

        Part 1.

        “A homeland … is the concept of the place … with which an ethnic group holds a long history and a deep cultural association – the country in which a particular national identity began.”

        That’s better. It still has a lot of vague phrases, though. “Ethnic group”, “Hold a long history”, “hold a deep cultural association”, “national identity”.

        “Ethnic group”. What are the criteria for deciding who is, and who isn’t, a member of a particular ethnic group? Without such criteria, we cannot decide whether this or that group “holds a long history/deep cultural association” with the place.

        (a) For example, are 1948 Polish Jews members of the same ethnic group as pre-1900 native Palestinian Jews? If they are not, it is perfectly possible that one group of Jews holds etc with Palestine, while another does not.

        (b) If they are, what is it that makes them so? It is not first language (Polish/Yiddish vs Arabic) or culinary culture. If the answer is “Religion”, then that suggests that all people who follow a particular religion are members of that same ethnic group. This might be a surprise to Belgian and Chinese Christians. If the answer is “regarding themselves as members of the Jewish people”, then that suggests that being a member of an ethnic group depends on the attitudes of the members rather than any external criterion.

        Thus, by (a) it is possible for Palestine to be the historic homeland of some Jews, but not of others, while by (b) anyone with the requisite attitudes can hold etc with Palestine and claim it as a historic homeland.

      • jon s
        jon s
        March 5, 2018, 4:15 am

        MHughes, Roha,
        A formal definition can be found in any dictionary. The wiki definition provide by Yitzhak Goodman is fine with me. What I wrote was of course my own subjective take on the issue.
        Roha, if you know of any other case analogous to the Jewish connection to our historic homeland, I would have no problem acknowledging it.
        I don’t think that I ever wrote that modern European Jews are not invaders in the Jewish homeland. I think that NO Jews are invaders here.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        March 5, 2018, 4:20 am

        Goodman,

        Hilarious, that Wikipedia entry. Very authoritative and scientific, eh? No doubt written by a multitude of highly authoritative thinkers, tinkers, etc, whose credentials are open to inspection. It sounds eerily the same as the concept of Vaterland, as expounded by Messrs. Rosenberg, Hitler, Goebbels et al., especially with regard to Sudeten-Germans, Transylvania Germans, etc.

        In fact, the part about “the country in which a particular national identity began” fits even better the Turanism of the perpetrators of the Armenian, Greek and Syriac Genocide of 1910-1923. Claiming Northern Mongolia from Constantinople, if you can imagine.

        Lovely concept, that of Historic Homeland. I hope you stop commandeering Thelonious Monk whenever you reproduce this kind of stuff.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        March 5, 2018, 9:17 am

        If we assume that we can make sense of the vague phrases in the Wikk definition (thanks, YG) what happens?
        The same place can have been the scene of many national origins. Some individuals within the same 100 square miles can proclaim themselves Xs, other individuals then or later can proclaim themselves Ys.
        The area of 100 square miles will be a subset of many larger areas. The Xs may concentrate on Little Xland, the Ys on Great Yland. It may be just as true that Xs first came together in the 100 square miles and that the Ys first came together in the 100,000 square miles of which the 100 form a part. It’s also possible that the 100 also form a part of Zland, which stretches away in a different direction. The claims that
        Xs, Ys and Zs all came together first ‘in this place’ will all be true. It will be just as true under the definition that the 100 square miles is all or part of the historic homeland of all of them.
        An act with the moral characteristics of invasion – violent creatiion from outside of a new regime at what cost is necessary to existing residents – can surely happen in a place thus qualifying as a historic homeland and can involve hostilities between different groups of those who, under the definition we are using, are both historic homelanders?

      • Yitzgood
        Yitzgood
        March 5, 2018, 12:03 pm

        a) For example, are 1948 Polish Jews members of the same ethnic group as pre-1900 native Palestinian Jews? If they are not, it is perfectly possible that one group of Jews holds etc with Palestine, while another does not.

        The Old Yishuv had a contingent of Ashkenazi Jews. The Ashknazim and Sefardim counted for each other’s minyanim and so forth. Some European Jewish families had branches of the family tree in Palestine.

        (b) If they are, what is it that makes them so? It is not first language (Polish/Yiddish vs Arabic) or culinary culture.

        Not merely Arabic, Judeo-Arabic. Written in Hebrew letters with some Hebrew vocabulary.

        If the answer is “Religion”, then that suggests that all people who follow a particular religion are members of that same ethnic group. This might be a surprise to Belgian and Chinese Christians.

        I don’t think Chinese Christians speak Christo-Chinese, and that’s just an example.

        If the answer is “regarding themselves as members of the Jewish people”, then that suggests that being a member of an ethnic group depends on the attitudes of the members rather than any external criterion.

        Not just attitudes but concrete behaviors.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 5, 2018, 1:28 pm

        “Not just attitudes but concrete behaviors.”

        Which entitles us to what, in terms of Palestine?

        Oh God, another one who has an abiding faith in the world’s philo-semitism.

        It’s charming, actually. We used to be so convinced the world didn’t like us much. I get such nachos from seeing Jews with such a confident attitude.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 5, 2018, 2:36 pm

        “That’s the meaning of “historic homeland”.

        Which the Zionists reclaimed for the Jews by exercising their right to tourism!

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 6, 2018, 12:27 am

        Note on Part 1.

        “The Ashknazim and Sefardim counted for each other’s minyanim and so forth.”

        That’s religion. Belgian Christians and Chinese Christians can be part of the congregation of a single Church.

        “Some European Jewish families had branches of the family tree in Palestine.”

        There iws a branch of my family tree in Canada. Does this make Australians part of the Canadian people? If so, it will be a shock to eljay.

        “I don’t think Chinese Christians speak Christo-Chinese, and that’s just an example.”

        Are you going for religion+language? Yiddish is not the same language as Judeo-Arabic.

        “Not just attitudes but concrete behaviors.”

        Since behaviour is chosen by the members, that does not count as an external criterion

        (And we are just looking at “homeland”. We haven’t even got to “historic”, yet.)

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 6, 2018, 12:37 am

        Part 2.

        Now let’s try to make sense of “hold a long history “.

        If it means “the group has lived in the place for a long time”, then, of course, we would note that only a small number of Jews have lived in Palestine for a long time. Most Jews lived in other places. The Zionists want to say that small number counts as representatives of all Jews, like placeholders at a dinner party (Annie’s phrase), and thus gives all Jews a continuous history in Palestine. However, we can just as well say that the large number of Jews in Eastern Europe and gives all Jews (including Palestinian and Iraqi Jews) a long history in Eastern Europe. And similar considerations apply to other places where Jews have lived for a long time.

        But if “hold a long history” does not mean residence, then perhaps it means that the members of the group have, for a long time, regarded the place in question as important and relevant to their group.

        In that sense, we can say that the British people hold a long history with both France and the USA, but I very much doubt that makes either country the homeland of the British.

        Even so, unless some other meaning for “hold a long history” can be offered (surely someone can oblige) we find we are, once again, looking at attitudes of the members of the group.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 6, 2018, 1:04 am

        Part 3.

        Now it is the turn of“hold a deep cultural association”.

        What, or how many, aspects of culture are needed? Linguistic? Knowledge of literature or history? Culinary? Practice of arts?

        Are the Latin lessons I had at school sufficient for me to claim a deep cultural association with Rome?*

        Does a love of eating Indian food count as a cultural association?

        Can all practicioners of Judo, Karate, and Aikido claim Japan as their homeland?

        Once again, we lack a clear criterion for deciding whether or not place Y can be counted as the homeland of group X.

        (*My Latin teacher would have been very sarcastic about such a suggestion.)

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 6, 2018, 2:20 am

        Part 4.

        At last! “The country in which a particular national identity began.”

        (MHughes has already pointed out some of the difficulties here.)

        The subject has shifted (uneasily) from “ethnic group” to “national identity”.

        An Englishman’s homeland, then, would seem to be England. But if that Englishman is also a Jew,a member of the “Jewish people”, an ethnic group, then (it is alleged) Palestine is also his homeland, by virtue of the alleged long history and cultural connection.

        When he thinks of himself as an Englishman, England is his homeland. When he thinks of himself as a Jew, Palestine is his homeland.

        So the criteria in the Wiki definition can give contrary results! This suggests that the definition is not internally consistent, and should be treated with suspicion.

        And the same goes for the concept of “homeland”.

      • Yitzgood
        Yitzgood
        March 6, 2018, 1:00 pm

        Me: “The Ashknazim and Sefardim counted for each other’s minyanim and so forth.”

        Roha: That’s religion. Belgian Christians and Chinese Christians can be part of the congregation of a single Church.

        Me: And have a shared theology and a sense of community with other Christians. Not much of sense of a shared homeland or language though. I mentioned minyanim. I could have added shochtim, mohalim, and sofrim. In America we are used to the idea that religion does not distinguish one person from another very much. This one goes to his Methodist church on Sunday and this one goes to his Episcopalian church and that’s about it. Judaism the religion involves things we associate with ethnic groups–not absolutely uniquely–but in a way that needs to be pointed out here.

        Me: “Some European Jewish families had branches of the family tree in Palestine.”

        Roha: There iws a branch of my family tree in Canada. Does this make Australians part of the Canadian people? If so, it will be a shock to eljay.

        Me: People like to point to European Jews–Poland especially, for some reason–with the air of saying surely they have nothing to do with Middle Eastern Jews. That was my point.

        Roha: Are you going for religion+language? Yiddish is not the same language as Judeo-Arabic.

        Me: No, but Judeo-Arabic and Yiddish have a similar relationship to Hebrew. One of the early religious complaints about Zionism was that Hebrew is too holy for mundane use. Someone in the MW comments section once, quite incorrectly, told me that Hebrew was only a liturgical language at the dawn of Zionism. The Jewish intellectual tradition, using Hebrew mostly, was as vibrant as ever in those days, and still is. I have sat studying Mishnah etc. with Jews I can’t easily converse with on mundane subjects. That’s a humble example, but Hebrew is always part of the linguistic picture when you talk about Jews.

        Roha: Since behaviour is chosen by the members, that does not count as an external criterion.

        Me: Maybe you should clarify that external-internal distinction as you are using it for this conversation.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 6, 2018, 1:22 pm

        “When he thinks of himself as an Englishman, England is his homeland. When he thinks of himself as a Jew, Palestine is his homeland.”

        I doubt he can use that excuse when Inland Revenue comes calling.
        His English Homeland can tax him, conscript him, and try him. And it is greatly to his credit, as he himself has said it: He is an Englishman!

        His Palestine “Homeland” is a sentimental attachment replete with historical and religious interest. Big deal.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 6, 2018, 3:39 pm

        Look, the “historical homeland” schtik was good while it lasted. But it has failed to attract enough Jews (by several million, at least) to Palestine, and it hasn’t convinced any other country they should send their Jews to Israel and deprive them of their citizenship in the USA, UK, etc.

        So what is all that “historical homeland” nonsense worth? It incurs no obligations on anybody, Jewish, Gentile or otherwise.

      • Yitzgood
        Yitzgood
        March 6, 2018, 7:48 pm

        Now let’s try to make sense of “hold a long history “.

        If it means “the group has lived in the place for a long time”, then, of course, we would note that only a small number of Jews have lived in Palestine for a long time. Most Jews lived in other places.

        Israel probably beats any other individual country in having major Jewish populations in different eras. The most you can give the Golden Age of Spanish Jewry is what? 600 years? Iraq is probably the biggest competitor. And Jewish history was made in Israel at times when it wasn’t so heavily populated. The Safed Kabbalists included the author of Lecha Dodi, the person Lurianic Kabbalah is named after, and the author of the Shulchan Aruch. Nachmanides wrote his Torah commentary there and so forth.

        Even so, unless some other meaning for “hold a long history” can be offered (surely someone can oblige) we find we are, once again, looking at attitudes of the members of the group.

        Attitudes of non-members would count for something also? For much of history, Christians agreed that the Jews were in exile from Israel. Exile means you belong there but you are in exile, right? They attributed the exile to different and negative reasons, of course, but they didn’t try to deny the Jews their Jewishness.

      • Yitzgood
        Yitzgood
        March 6, 2018, 8:05 pm

        Are the Latin lessons I had at school sufficient for me to claim a deep cultural association with Rome?*

        Quick–third declension! If you actually regarded yourself as a Roman, that could play a role. Your use of the word “sufficient” suggests that you don’t.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 6, 2018, 8:27 pm

        Part 5.

        Throughout this analysis, I have seen that, for ethnic groups, the criteria that make place Y the homeland of group X seem to depend largely on the ideas and attitudes of group X. This has two interesting implications.

        Let us assume, for the moment, that members of ethnic groups have rights (e.g., right of abode)in respect of their homeland solely on the basis that it is their homeland.*

        The first is that, if the members of group X change their ideas and attitudes, place Y ceases to be their homeland. Members of group X then lose all those rights.

        The second is that if the members of group Z adopt the pre-change ideas and attitudes of group X, place Y becomes their homeland, and they gain those rights.

        Thus, if the Bontoc Igorot decide they fancy a slice of Hokkaido, they will change their ideas and attitudes to those of the Ainu. Then they will be able to pour into the area without being invaders.

        I find this idea, that such sweeping rights can be acquired through simply changing attitudes, to be ridiculous.

        Nor does the “national identity” version seem to offer much for the Zionist. Polish Jews may not be counted as invaders of Poland, their homeland, but they can certainly be invaders of countries which are not those in which their national identity began.

        So I await a clarification of why Jews cannot be invaders of their “historic homeland”.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        March 6, 2018, 10:17 pm

        @Goodman

        “Attitudes of non-members would count for something also?”

        Do attititudes count of non-members count now and for the same value?

        “Israel probably beats any other individual country in having major Jewish populations in different eras.”

        What is a major Jewish population? Nice words but lacks definition.
        Israel hasn’t existed for thousands of years so it’s an uphill climb for you on that one. Also where the heck is this rogue outlaw state of Israel even today? Where are it’s borders and what territory does it encompass?

        “For much of history, Christians agreed that the Jews were in exile from Israel.”

        No surprise you would rely on racists to help define what is currently a racist state.

        ” but they didn’t try to deny the Jews their Jewishness.”

        They sure didn’t. They define Jews as something separate out of pure hate and racism. There is no apologizing enough for that but using it as a basis is like building a home on quicksand. There is no moral ground for justifying the racist state of Israel on that pile of quicksand.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 7, 2018, 12:23 pm

        Jeez, I knew this neighborhood would be full of pilpul-pushers, but they could at least offer something that wasn’t way past the sell-by date.

        Or was Aretha Franklin wrong to record Carol King’s “Natural Woman”?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 7, 2018, 9:37 pm

        “Israel probably beats any other individual country in having major Jewish populations in different eras.”

        That doesn’t provide a residence-based “long history” for those who didn’t live there.

        “Attitudes of non-members would count for something also? ”

        No more than the attitudes of the members, and when it comes to rights, that means “nothing”.

        “Quick–third declension!”

        I can actually remember the fourth! But I have already referred to my Latin teacher’s judgement.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        March 8, 2018, 2:09 pm

        I thought for a while that we were talking about a purely objective definition of historic homeland as a place where, as a matter of fact, an ethnic group to which one belongs (taken also to be an objective fact) first formed self-consciously. To my mind this status conveys no moral rights and does not prove that one cannot carry out an action that can be called invasion of one’s hh in the sense given. Can be called invasion because it has the moral characteristics of invasion. Another word that seems possible is ravage.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 8, 2018, 6:07 pm

        MHughes, I, too, was hoping for something objective. I am not sure how membership of an ethnic group can be completely objective, though.

        Jon s keeps making this claim that Jews cannot be invaders in their “homeland”, but he never backs it up. I am beginning to suspect that he can’t.

      • Yitzgood
        Yitzgood
        March 9, 2018, 11:58 am

        Me: “Israel probably beats any other individual country in having major Jewish populations in different eras.”

        Roha: That doesn’t provide a residence-based “long history” for those who didn’t live there.

        Me: They would participate in collective Jewish history, though? What are the requirements for “long”? A millennium?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 9, 2018, 8:35 pm

        “They would participate in collective Jewish history, though?”

        So the principle is that if some Jews lived there, all Jews have a long history there.

        In that case, all Jews have a long history in Eastern Europe, much of Western Europe, Golders Green, Brooklyn, and Hollywood, as well as much of the ME. That’s an awful lot of homeland. The rest of us are going to have to squeeze together in the remaining bits of the world.

        ” What are the requirements for “long”? A millennium?”

        “Long” is another vague term.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        March 10, 2018, 5:40 pm

        Just to administer a pinprick, almost relevant to the topic, against the historic homeland theory or at least against the wildly ideological misuse of archaeogy which has underpinned it, I’d commend the Zwinglius Redivivus website site ‘It looks like science has disproved inflated archaeological claims’ again’, in reference to extremely excessive antiquity attributed to some objects and structures in Jerusalem.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 12, 2018, 12:15 pm

        Hey “Yitzchak”, could you maybe once, without all the pilpul-pushing, tell us what being Jewish entitles us to?

        Just give us a list, okay?

  15. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    March 1, 2018, 9:55 am

    Burg understands that Zionism as is has no future. It is based on a lie. That Palestinians do not exist.
    He is called a troublemaker by people who can’t let go of the Zionist groupthink. This tends to happen before systems collapse. Reality versus ideology.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso
      March 1, 2018, 10:54 am

      @Maghlawatan

      Well said.

      Perhaps the greatest fear Zionist Jews have is demographics, especially if one state comes about. Despite the mass expulsion of Palestinians by Jewish forces since 1948, they already outnumber Jews between the River and the Sea. This is due in large measure to the fact that Palestinian women have one of the highest fertility rates in the world.

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 1, 2018, 11:27 am

        || Misterioso: … Perhaps the greatest fear Zionist Jews have is demographics … ||

        Yup, to Jewish supremacists (Zionists) non-Jewish human beings are a “demographic threat”.

      • March 1, 2018, 9:26 pm

        Misterioso – My Father said all he had to do was hug my Mother and she would get pregnant.

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        March 1, 2018, 11:02 pm

        Most Israeli Jews live on the Mediterranean coast between Tel Aviv and Haifa. The Palestinians are shunted away out of sight either behind the wall or in Gaza. Yossi IsraelI isn’t allowed to visit Gaza or Palestinian towns behind the wall. Palestinians appear as backward in Israeli schoolbooks. They are not subject to Israeli civil law. Israelis typically don’t meet them.

        The occupation is like a tumour growing in Yossi Israeli’s body. He refuses to see a doctor.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        March 2, 2018, 3:25 am

        Maghlawatan,

        Your Yossi whatever IS the malignant tumor.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 2, 2018, 7:08 pm

        “The occupation is like a tumour growing in Yossi Israeli’s body. He refuses to see a doctor.”

        ‘Tumor? What tumor? Those are my new muscles!’

      • gamal
        gamal
        March 3, 2018, 6:51 pm

        ‘Tumor? What tumor? Those are my new muscles!’

        Mooser make ready for the Rupture, the goddess Hernia demands it.

      • jon s
        jon s
        March 4, 2018, 3:53 pm

        Maghlawatan
        There are plenty of Palestinians in areas other than Gaza or behind the walls. In the Gallil and in Jaffa, in Haifa and in the Negev, not far from where I’m sitting. I meet Palestinians with Israeli citizenship on a daily basis, no big deal. What do you mean that they are not subject to Israeli civil law? Where? In Gaza? Please explain what you mean.

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        March 4, 2018, 4:46 pm

        Jon

        I wrote

        “Most Israeli Jews live on the Mediterranean coast between Tel Aviv and Haifa. The Palestinians are shunted away out of sight either behind the wall or in Gaza. ”

        Yossi Israeli doesn’t consider 1948 Palestinians as Palestinian. Israeli Arabs.
        They were expelled from most places where Jews live and they are denied rights Jews have.
        I don’t know how you can justify such a brutal and racist system.

  16. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    March 1, 2018, 12:31 pm

    Burg’s ideas are heartfelt and useful.
    As asserted: kahane zionism is not preferable to an ideal society.
    Establishing that ideal society is beyond the scope of burg and I am sure PhD’s in governance can delineate the new more ideal polity.
    The guess that such a society will not be the actual development of events detracts from those who think Burg provides us with a map to the future. Pretty clearly, he does not. He provides us with inspiration to reject the status quo and reject the predominant israeli/jewish/zionist zeitgeist, not with a realistic electoral strategy or negotiating document, but with his heart: this is not the way.
    Back on planet earth those who can’t soar in Burg’s stratosphere have to deal with reality, a reality that demands a harsh critique, but a reality some of us perforce will inhabit.

    • wondering jew
      wondering jew
      March 1, 2018, 12:51 pm

      The zeitgeist that deserves critique: the occupation is a necessity and the settlements do not change the nature of the occupation and Zionism can succeed without peace.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        March 1, 2018, 1:57 pm

        I think you’re right on all three points, Yonah. But your being right about the first one is not pure good news. Israel has indeed no practical need or necessity for the ‘occupation’ but that very fact shows that Israel could still flourish mightily, no less than now really, on a 2ss basis, which means that the Palestinians would never pursue policies that Israel might find seriously damaging, which still amounts to hegemony and is still bound to be very much resented. Ending the occupation might not amount to much.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        March 1, 2018, 2:36 pm

        My specific personal critique is that the settlements change the nature of the occupation.

        In regards to the necessity of the occupation, I respect Yeshaya Leibowitz, who more or less said that avoidance of the occupation is a necessity, even before it became a settler occupation. But in truth I only argue that Olmert (or Livni, together with Obama) could have negotiated a peace, but I don’t bother arguing that the occupation is not a necessity, I restrict myself to arguing the settler aspect of the occupation is not a necessity and therefore very bad news.

        As regards to peace, this gets back to Judah Magnes’s opposition to statehood and even less extremely to Moshe Sharret (and maybe Chaim Weitzman’s) views towards the importance of peace (as opposed to Ben Gurion’s denigrating such an attitude.) I do not delude myself that Palestinians in their hearts do not wish to see the Zionists gone and as such depending upon peace to declare Zionism successful is practically tantamount to declaring Zionism as a failure. But the priority given it by Sharret or even Ehud Barak is very different from the Likud attitude that it is purely naive folly.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        March 1, 2018, 3:42 pm

        Hughes,

        Ending the occupation might not amount to much.

        The occupation does not start in 1967.
        As long as anyone defines occupation in Zionist terms, we are not getting out of anywhere. It is downright painful to see such propaganda terms used by its opponents; it makes discussion unnecessarily difficult.

      • Keith
        Keith
        March 1, 2018, 5:02 pm

        YONAH FREDMAN- “…Zionism can succeed without peace.”

        Zionism can only succeed without peace. The Zionist ideology is based upon eternal conflict between Jews and non-Jews. Zionism is a throwback to medieval Judaism, initially in secular form now more and more influenced by Orthodox Judaism. Once Zionist Jews relate to their non-Jewish neighbors as fellow humans with different beliefs rather than as eternal anti-Semites waiting to pounce, Zionism will have completely lost its manufactured reason for being.

        According to Israel Shahak: “Therefore, the real test facing both Israeli and diaspora Jews is the test of their self-criticism which must include the critique of the Jewish past. The most important part of such a critique must be detailed and honest confrontation of the Jewish attitude to non-Jews.” (p103, “Jewish History, Jewish Religion,” Israel Shahak)

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        March 1, 2018, 7:28 pm

        Avraham Burg inspires thought.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      March 1, 2018, 6:47 pm

      “Back on planet earth those who can’t soar in Burg’s stratosphere have to deal with reality”

      Shorter “yonah”: ‘ Americans know more about Israel than Israelis do.’

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        March 3, 2018, 4:47 am

        I once “met” Burg’s father. It was probably 1974 I was with my grandfather in Jerusalem on the stairs of Heikhal Shlomo, the building of the chief rabbinate of israel, when Yosef Burg emerged. They nodded to each other. They were contemporaries (Burg and I are the same age, but he is son of the old world and I am the grandson of the old world) and my grandfather was a party politician (or functionary) and familiar to burg from the late 40’s. Burg’s father was from dresden, (I’m reading burg’s autobio, which is called “in days to come”, which spends the first hundred pages in his early years.) German Jews are a breed apart. I come from the eastern European uncultured rabble, (treated as such by German jews, my ancestors were quite cultured, thank you.)

        I wonder where Israel is heading. I discuss it all the time in person with people who are far to my right in their zionism.

        The current bibi crisis period is of interest. But overriding that is my concern for the long range.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 3, 2018, 1:02 pm

        “The current bibi crisis period is of interest. But overriding that is my concern for the long range.”

        Oh, you bet, “yonah”, keep your eye on the “long range”. There’s no crisis, just the growing pains of a burgeoning state. Everything is in Israel’s favor in the “long range”.

  17. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    March 1, 2018, 1:40 pm

    @Jon S
    “By and large, mainstream zionists sought to live in peace with them”
    As in forcing from their homes 700,000 + and expelling them from their own country to refugee camps in neighbouring countries where they could live “in peace with them”.

    Try pulling the other one it – it`s got bells on.

    BTW WTF are “Mainstream Zionists”? Is there an implicit comparison with sewerstream Zionists?

  18. JLewisDickerson
    JLewisDickerson
    March 5, 2018, 6:00 am

    RE: “Burg was a difficult voice to listen to because he pushed ‘all the buttons’.” ~ Rabbi Ayelet Cohen

    ■ FROM BRITANNICA.COM [cognitive dissonance]

    • cognitive dissonance – the mental conflict that occurs when beliefs or assumptions are contradicted by new information. The unease or tension that the conflict arouses in a person is relieved by one of several defensive maneuvers: the person rejects, explains away, or avoids the new information, persuades himself that no conflict really exists, reconciles the differences, or resorts to any other defensive means of preserving stability or order in his conception of the world and of himself. The concept, first introduced in the 1950s, has become a major point of discussion and research.

    SOURCE – http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/124498/cognitive-dissonance

    • JLewisDickerson
      JLewisDickerson
      March 5, 2018, 6:13 am

      RE: Deborah said, “You need to think about the majority of the people– how you are going to explain it.”

      MY COMMENT: Perhaps various defense mechanisms can be promoted/utilized during a period of transition to manage the level of cognitive dissonance.

      DEFENSE MECHANISMS – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanisms

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 5, 2018, 1:30 pm

        “Deborah said, “You need to think about the majority of the people– how you are going to explain it.”

        Shorter Deborah: ‘Mr. Burg, we have our fund-raising perfected, don’t screw it up!!’

  19. JLewisDickerson
    JLewisDickerson
    March 5, 2018, 6:21 am

    RE: “Burg said that Israel has only ever executed one person, Adolf Eichmann, in 1962. Many human rights groups would dispute this claim.”

    MY COMMENT: Burg probably meant that Israel’s judicial system has only ever executed one person, Adolf Eichmann.
    I suspect he realizes there have been numerous nonjudicial executions.
    For instance, the tip of the iceberg:
    ■ Bus 300 affair – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_300_affair
    Not to mention:
    ■ Hebron shooting incident – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebron_shooting_incident

  20. Yitzgood
    Yitzgood
    March 11, 2018, 4:29 pm

    Me: “They would participate in collective Jewish history, though?”

    RoHa: So the principle is that if some Jews lived there, all Jews have a long history there.

    Me: Jews had a long “residence-based history” there, to use your term, followed by a diaspora in which some Jews continued to live in Israel and make history, and Israel is certainly a major population center for Jews now. That seems to qualify for a “long history,” one element of that “homeland” definition we started talking about.

    • annie
      annie
      March 11, 2018, 5:12 pm

      yitzchak, i am curious about this:

      Exile means you belong there but you are in exile, right? They attributed the exile to different and negative reasons, of course, but they didn’t try to deny the Jews their Jewishness.

      it seems here, if i am not mistaken, that you have replaced exile w/jewishness (vs ‘They attributed the exile to different and negative reasons, of course, but they didn’t try to deny the Jews their exile’)

      is exile your jewishness? and if so, how much of your jewish identity is exile?

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 11, 2018, 7:45 pm

        || Annie Robbins: … how much of your jewish identity is exile? ||

        Some portion of what isn’t already allocated to circumcision and Holocaust.

      • Yitzgood
        Yitzgood
        March 12, 2018, 1:10 am

        it seems here, if i am not mistaken, that you have replaced exile w/jewishness

        I think I see what you mean, but I meant that nowadays, including in the MW comments section, you see people saying Jews have nothing to do with Israel–they aren’t really “Semites,” etc. So non-Jewish belief in the Jewish exile from Israel has been partially replaced with something more extreme, belief that the “real Jews” ceased to exist. Sand talks about the “myth of exile” I think. Sometimes you see it as a more casual attitude: Helen Thomas’ saying Israelis should go back to Poland and Germany, etc.

        is exile your jewishness? and if so, how much of your jewish identity is exile?

        You remind me that there is a Satmar song about how Williamsburg is “Yereeshalayim fur di galus Yid”–“Jerusalem for the exile Jew.” That isn’t my community.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        March 12, 2018, 9:20 am

        Sometimes you see it as a more casual attitude: Helen Thomas’ saying Israelis should go back to Poland and Germany, etc.

        Damn right. She didn’t have time to add the US to that. There’s nothing casual there, armed invaders who came with the express purpose of taking over the land must go back to where they came from.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 12, 2018, 12:02 pm

        “–they aren’t really “Semites,” etc.”

        Wait a minute “Yitzchak”! Are you trying to say there are people who don’t believe we are all descended from Noah’s son Shem?

        Never heard such a thing.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 13, 2018, 4:25 pm

        “That isn’t my community.”

        “Goodman”, you are entitled to a free “Jews sui generis” lapel button.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      March 11, 2018, 7:28 pm

      Some Jews lived in Palestine. Some Jews lived inPoland, and “made history “. Some Jews lived in Iraq, and made not only “history “, but also the BabylonianTalmud. By your principles, (“some” implies “all”) all Jews have a long history in Poland and Iraq. Jews can then claim Poland and Iraq as homelands.

      • Yitzgood
        Yitzgood
        March 12, 2018, 7:58 pm

        Wait a minute “Yitzchak”! Are you trying to say there are people who don’t believe we are all descended from Noah’s son Shem?

        Straw Moose Argument.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 13, 2018, 1:25 pm

        “Straw Moose Argument”

        Gosh, you are right, “Yitzchak”. I checked and the Bible is full of people semiteing each other.

  21. Yitzgood
    Yitzgood
    March 12, 2018, 12:29 am

    Some Jews lived in Palestine. Some Jews lived inPoland, and “made history “. Some Jews lived in Iraq, and made not only “history “, but also the BabylonianTalmud. By your principles, (“some” implies “all”) all Jews have a long history in Poland and Iraq. Jews can then claim Poland and Iraq as homelands.

    “Long history” was only one part of the definition of a homeland. Go back and look at it.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      March 12, 2018, 12:00 pm

      “Long history” was only one part of the definition of a homeland.”

      Are you trying to tell us why it is all-right for the Zionists to steal Palestine, or why the world should invariably support the Zionists?

      Either way, “Yitzchak”, I wouldn’t depend so much on the world’s philo-semitism. It’s not a good bet.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      March 13, 2018, 12:28 am

      The Wiki version had two parts. One was homeland for “ethnic group”, which had the criteria of “long history” and “deep cultural association”.

      The other was for “national identity”, with the criterion “where that identity began”.

      I showed that for the ethnic group the two criteria are simply a matter of ideas held by the members of the ethnic group. Even when they are combined, they do not add up to a criterion that is more than the ideas.

      I showed that the “national identity” version can conflict with the “ethnic group” version. The choice of which one to follow depends on the ideas of the person involved.

      And that no rights follow from the ideas.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 13, 2018, 1:21 pm

        “And that no rights follow from the ideas.”

        And even more importantly, “the ideas” (homeland) do not guarantee enough support, and resources to put the project over, among Jews or anybody else.
        Nor do those “ideas” obligate anybody to support the project, or even prevent them from opposing it.

  22. Yitzgood
    Yitzgood
    March 12, 2018, 8:01 pm

    Are you trying to tell us why it is all-right for the Zionists to steal Palestine, or why the world should invariably support the Zionists?

    Straw Moose Argument containing Complex Question. Pretty intricate maneuver. Should we hold up number signs as the do for certain Olympic sports?

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      March 13, 2018, 12:30 am

      Split the complex question into its parts, and then you will be able to answer each part.

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