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If there are no refugees, there will be no one to return: Understanding Trump’s war on UNRWA and Palestinian refugees

Israel/PalestineUS Politics
on 148 Comments

The Trump administration has pledged full funding to an oft-maligned UN relief agency for Palestinian refugees… Nikki Haley, the US ambassador to the United Nations, has privately assured the UN Relief and Works Agency, or UNRWA, that the United States… will maintain its current levels of funding to the organization…. Haley has emerged as an unlikely champion of UNRWA.

US Vows To Fund A UN Agency For Palestinian Refugees [that] Israeli Leader Wants Shuttered.” Foreign Policy, August 24, 2017

The intervening year has been a race of power against protest.

Gazan Palestinians protest in order to be seen and heard, resisting the blockade and claiming their rights.

Trump and those around him have spent the year trying to obviate – rather than solve – Palestinian claims.  Now they wish to deny the refugee status of 90% of Palestinians. If Trump has his way, only a few elderly refugees will remain.  The Right of Return will be moot. It would not exist now, he says, if UNRWA didn’t keep it alive. He will make the right disappear by de-funding UNRWA and de-registering its five million phantom refugees – or, rather, five million descendants of a number of actual refugees.  After seventy years, it’s time for the descendants to disperse quietly.

Once that is done, return can remain the privilege of Jews – or, rather, of the descendants of Jews.  Our claims have somehow not been diluted by our millenia of dispersion.

Palestinian artists paint a mural, in Gaza city, depicting U.S. President Donald Trump and the burning tires of the Great March of Return, May 16, 2018. (Photo: Mahmoud Ajour/ APA Images)

I

In December, 2017, Trump gave away what was not his, declaring Jerusalem to be the capital of Israel only.  There was anger, but the sky did not fall on Trump and the messianic segment of his base. International law and global understandings were rather easily ignored.

Foreign Policy would later quote from internal emails that had been sent by Trump’s son-in-law, Jarod Kushner, in January, 2018.  Trump may be transactional, but Kushner is not. Already then, Kushner was calling for an “honest and sincere effort to disrupt UNRWA… our goal can’t be to keep things stable…. Sometimes you have to strategically risk breaking things.”

State Department spokesperson Heather Naert said at the time that the US had no intention of eliminating funding for Palestinian refugees …  But the following day, Victoria Coates, a senior advisor to [President Trump’s Middle East envoy, Jason] Greenblatt, sent an email to the White House’s national security staff indicating that the White House was mulling a way to eliminate the UN’s agency for Palestine refugees.

Foreign Policy, August 3, 2018

In February, they went for UNRWA’s budget.  Trump failed to deliver on roughly $300 million of US commitments to UNRWA.  UNRWA would already have programmed those funds to provide food, health care, education and services to 5.3 million Palestinian refugees.  Trump tossed humanitarian obligations on the trash heap with international law and diplomacy.

UNRWA redoubled its fundraising.

Gazans began to march, and IDF snipers began to shoot them for the crime of walking while Palestinian.  Nothing stopped them, not the loosening of the IDF open-fire policy and not Netanyahu’s escalating punishments.  The violence and the loss of life have been grossly one-sided:  Israeli soldiers have killed 171 protestors as of this writing, while one Israeli has been shot.  Israeli jets have bombed to the very edge of war, in response to incendiary kites.

Still they march.  There is talk of an economic response to Gazans’ humanitarian need, but not of a solution derived from justice.  So Gaza’s protests continue. If it’s Friday, Gazans will be walking, making themselves visible and demanding precisely those rights that are not under discussion.

A young Palestinian looks at a poster listing the villages that demonstrators at the Great March of Return plan to return to once the Palestinian right of return is honored, March 30, 2018. (Photo: Mohammed Asad)

II

Gaza’s protestors brought the Right of Return back into focus – as a threat, not as the basis for resolution.  As I have written elsewhere, UNRWA presented an oblique target:

Gaza’s Great March of Return has reinvigorated a specious argument against UNRWA:  by upholding Palestinians’ rights as they are written into international human rights law and UN resolutions, UNRWA’s very existence is said to perpetuate the conflict.

[Proponents of this argument write that] “UNRWA has succeeded in concealing its political raison d’etre of sustaining the Palestinian demand for ‘return’ designed to undo Israel, and it has done so under a humanitarian guise.”   Because UNRWA defines Palestinians as refugees, it prevents them from adjusting to their new reality as Gazans.  Thus UNRWA – not the blockade and not repeated bombardments – is impeding Gaza’s development….

Make no mistake, though; UNRWA is only the apparent object of this argument.  Its real aim is to legitimate the status quo and eliminate the refugee issue entirely.  By removing UNRWA, these authors hope to make the present distribution of power and land permanent.

Counterpunch, June 29, 2018

With its single-issue focus, UNRWA is humanitarian evidence of the ongoing occupation of Palestine.  In addition, UNRWA consolidates and responds to the needs of Palestine refugees as one people in several locations.  It is not their leader, nor their representative and certainly not their thought leader; but UNRWA is a bureaucratic embodiment of Palestinians’ unified wait for justice.  That makes UNRWA a gratifying straw man.

The UN General Assembly votes every three years on UNRWA’s mandate, and 164 member states voted in favor of its current renewal.  Trump cannot bully all of them, as was made evident in December 2017, when 128 member states opposed Trump’s unilateral gifting of Jerusalem.  Instead, Trump, Netanyahu and friends have worked hard to de-legitimize UNRWA.

Similarly, Trump can not erase UN General Assembly Resolution 194 (III), which resolved that

refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property

So instead he, his friends and family have begun work to disqualify the Palestinians who claim their Right of Return.  On what basis?

Their case rests on the belief that the descendants of first-generation refugees cannot qualify for refugee status.  Palestinians, they claim, are the only refugees in the world who pass on their refugee status through the generations.  The view is not shared by the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), and the [US] State Department, which maintain that multiple generations of Afghan, Bhutanese, Burmese, Nepalese, Thai, Tibetan, and Somali people have been recognized as refugees.

Foreign Policy, August 9, 2018

This is common sense as well as policy.  How else should one name a child born in a refugee camp, behind a blockade wall?   She has been born into her parents’ displacement. Dispossession determines her choices.  She is unprotected in a world of states, and she must be counted in order to receive aid in a world of agencies.  She is a Palestine refugee, with human and political rights.

Jay Sekulow, an anti-Palestine activist who also happens to be Donald Trump’s personal attorney, explains why he insists that this child has no rights:

The 1951 refugee convention has a lengthy definition of refugee that is personal: A refugee is a person who “owing to well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country.” In registering refugees on this basis, the UNHCR interprets the convention as requiring “family unity,” and it implements the principle by extending benefits to a refugee’s accompanying family, calling such people “derivative refugees.” Derivative refugees do not have refugee status on their own; it depends on the principal refugee. UNRWA’s definition is also personal: Palestinian refugees are “persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict,” but it also registers “descendants of Palestine refugee males, including adopted children.” The status for descendants is not dependent upon accompanying the principal refugee.

Here is where the sleight of hand comes in: Of course it is possible for there to be multiple generations of refugees, if the multiple generations all fit the primary 1951 definition of a refugee. For example, if the granddaughter of a refugee is also outside the country of her nationality due to a well-founded fear of being persecuted, she too is a primary refugee. But she is not a refugee due to descent, because there is no provision for refugee status based on descent in the 1951 refugee convention or in internationally accepted practices for refugees who are not Palestinian refugees.

Therefore, a Palestinian child (whose antecedents were dispossessed before the 1951 convention on refugees) is born with no rights.

According to Foreign Policy, Sekulow sued the State Department to obtain a 2015 report which he hoped would contain the number of first-generation Palestine refugees.  No number was evident on the redacted report. Moreover, “the declassified sections of the report provide a vigorous defense of UNRWA, asserting that it ‘serves an important function and is a force for stability in the region.’”

Palestinian students sit inside a classroom at their school belonging to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees (UNRWA) in Deir Al-Balah in the central Gaza Strip, on August 29, 2018. (Photo: Ashram Amra/ APA Images)

III

Gazans continued to march and resist.  Punishment affirmed their need to be seen, and highlighted their missing human rights including their urgent need for protection.

Now the push is on to make them disappear – as Pierre Krahenbuhl, Commissioner General of UNRWA has said, to wish them away.

On July 30, Ma’an news reported that Republican Congressman from Colorado, Doug Lamborn initiated the UNRWA Reform and Refugee Support Act in the US Congress, with the aim of recognizing only 40,000 Palestinian refugees.  “A congressional aide familiar with the legislation said its intent isn’t to gut UNRWA funding, but redirect assistance to descendants through USAID.”

Or not – apparently not.  At least, not through USAID.  Trump has just cut $200 million of USAID’s economic project commitments to the West Bank and Gaza Strip.  As of this writing, USAID’s Gaza project is expected to cease operations by the end of August, with the loss of 100 jobs.  And Trump is expected to end all contributions to UNRWA because it “hopes to pressure Palestinians to return to the bargaining table.”

According to multiple reports, the Trump administration will tie the strings of this campaign together in a report to be released in early September.  The US will recognize no more than half a million refugees, will reject any right of return, and ominously will ask Israel to ‘reconsider’ UNRWA’s mandate to operate in the West Bank.

Trump will cap refugees – Le monde, c’est moi?   As with Jerusalem, in his campaign against Palestinian rights Trump is snatching at something that is not his.  He may have the White House, but neither he, nor his son-in-law nor his personal attorney bestow the rights of humans.   He cannot revoke them.

However, he can precipitously wreck the infrastructure of refugee assistance.  What will happen to the people who need food, who are losing jobs, whose children’s school must operate month by month, whose hospitals have no electricity?

Gazans stubbornly continue to protest at that illegitimate, deadly fence.

The realization of Palestinian rights may be a marathon, but right now, it is also a sprint.  The race is on, to be made to vanish or to be seen and heard.

marilyng
About Marilyn Garson

Marilyn Garson worked with communities affected by war, including Afghanistan and Pakistan (2005 – 2010) and the Gaza Strip (2011 – 2015). She is a co-founder of the Gaza Gateway, a social enterprise creating employment in Gaza. She writes from New Zealand, and blogs at Contrapuntal: Transforming Gaza. You can follow her on Twitter @skinonbothsides.

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148 Responses

  1. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    August 30, 2018, 10:24 am

    Israel has run up a huge bill as occupier. The whole Israeli economy deserves BDS

    https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/aug/30/trump-aid-cuts-hitting-palestinians-hard-agencies-warn

    Sweeping new US cuts in humanitarian aid to Palestinians are already hitting hundreds of thousands of the most vulnerable people, amid accusations that the Trump administration is using the issue to “blackmail” Palestinians into accepting a peace deal that critics say will favour Israel.
    Fears of a wholesale withdrawal of US development assistance from Palestinians were fuelled by an opaque announcement on Friday suggesting that the US intended to redirect Palestinian aid to other “higher priorities”.

    The statement follows a months-long freeze on promised funds from the main US government development organisation, USAid, to agencies on the ground, not least in Gaza.
    One agency operating in the coastal enclave, Catholic Relief Services, said the withholding of this year’s US funding for its projects had seen the number of Palestinians it could support in Gaza – largely in food aid and employment assistance – drop from 150,000 to just 200 since January, forcing it to lay off most of its programme staff.
    Other agencies hit by the cuts include Mercy Corps and International Medical Corps (IMC), who jointly provide a USAid-funded medical programme in Gaza.

    • m1945
      m1945
      August 31, 2018, 11:18 pm

      Palestinians are among the top recipients of foreign aid. The Palestinian Authority uses this money to pay people to murder Jews. The more Jews they kill, the more money they get. Cutting aid to the Palestinian will save lives. If the Palestinians want the aid restored, they should stop committing genocide.

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        September 1, 2018, 8:48 am

        This is bullshit. Jews do far more killing in Palestine anyway. Some rabbis say it is a mitzvah.

  2. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    August 30, 2018, 10:33 am

    From every human being there rises a light.

    Baal Shem Tov

    Jews lobbied Trump to do this. Think how far from the BST Zionism actually is.

  3. Boomer
    Boomer
    August 30, 2018, 11:26 am

    This policy is wrong, and sad for the United States as well as for the Palestinians. Still, it doesn’t seem likely that Israel and its supporters here will permit any improvement in the policy while Trump is President. I hope that some future President of the United States will at least permit the Palestinians who used to be recognized as refugees to come to the U.S. and become citizens with full and equal rights, if they wish to do so. We owe them that much, at least.

  4. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    August 30, 2018, 12:15 pm

    A couple of things. Israel is a parasite and expects someone else to pay even though it is the occupier.
    Trump is incoherent and doesn’t think strategically.
    The aim is to force people to leave

    Egypt has enough problems and won’t take anyone. Neither will Europe where anti immigrant sentiment is high as the result of the Syria war
    Europe took in 1 m refugees in 2015.
    Israel needs to lose 2m gazans to get the Jewish % in greater Israel to 57% and won’t pay for it.

    Europe is not going to help out .

    • catalan
      catalan
      August 30, 2018, 3:17 pm

      “Israel needs to lose 2m gazans to get the Jewish % in greater Israel to 57% and won’t pay for it.” Mag
      The blockade will eventually lower the birth rates. The population will even out and then start to drop. The blockade of Gaza will not end, Pepsi boycott or not. Indeed it will get much more severe shortly. BDS has legitimized starving the enemy for political goals.

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        August 30, 2018, 3:53 pm

        Starving Gaza legitimizes hurting Jews everywhere economically by your logic Catalan. And a resurgence in global antisemitism might also be on the cards. Israel is venal.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        August 30, 2018, 4:02 pm

        @catalan
        “BDS has legitimized starving the enemy for political goals.”

        Risible. Only the depraved and twisted minds of zionists feel such actions are legitimate. A depraved people on par with daesh.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        August 31, 2018, 6:23 am

        catalan: “The blockade will eventually lower the birth rates. ”

        Yes, catalan. It’s called genocide:
        “(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;”

        catalan: “BDS has legitimized starving the enemy for political goals.”

        What are you trying to say, catalan? That Jews would rather “starve” than to end violating the fundamentals right of Nonjews in Palestine including genocide?

      • catalan
        catalan
        August 31, 2018, 8:59 am

        “That Jews would rather “starve” than to end violating the fundamentals right of Nonjews in Palestine including genocide?”
        BDS demands that all refugees including the membership of Hamas and Islamic Jihad be allowed entry into Israel. They also demand the partition borders which would mean evacuation of major Jewish cities like Beersheba. I would imagine that Israelis would rather starve than agree to that. But before Israeli Jews begin starving, the situation of Israeli Arabs and the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank would have deteriorated much more as scarce resources get reallocated towards Jews and away from Arabs. Given that Israeli life expectancy is among the highest in the world though I doubt that they are too worried about the boycott of Pepsi, Gap and Wonderbra. You can rage all you want – I am just saying that the population of Gaza will eventually peak out. The blockade is essential and supported across the political spectrum in Israel. To put it bluntly, any problems caused by BDS can be shifted towards the Arabs.

      • zaid
        zaid
        August 31, 2018, 9:14 am

        That is not how it works, Poor people have more kids and not less.
        Sorry to disappoint you.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        August 31, 2018, 9:28 am

        So BDS has made using starvation as a weapon of war, legal?
        Guess there’s no further need for IHRL or the UN.

        Btw, there was plenty of sex in holocaust camps which resulted in thousands of newborns. They were even given their own numbers.
        Unfortunately, most were eventually liquidated.

        You should be careful of justifying barbaric behavior.

      • catalan
        catalan
        August 31, 2018, 1:17 pm

        By the way, the boycott of Wonderbra is not a joke. It’s was posted by Annie on Twitter. Yes, there are actually people who think that if they buy Haines instead of Wonderbra, Israel will accept 10 million refugees. To me it helps explain the various weird religious beliefs besetting our species. Or how everything will be free in the various communist utopias.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        September 1, 2018, 7:28 am

        catalan: “BDS demands that all refugees including the membership of Hamas and Islamic Jihad be allowed entry into Israel.”

        Really? Like Israel allowed the terrorists of Irgun, Lehi, etc. to stay and dissolve into the IDF, including service ribbons? Hah, that would be like Begin and Shamir becoming prime ministers of Israel. Can’t be done.

        catalan: “They also demand the partition borders …”

        Who? Where? Do you actually mean that they demand Israel’s borders? The borders in which Israel declared statehood? Can’t be done.

        catalan: “… which would mean evacuation of major Jewish cities like Beersheba.”

        Why don’t you tell us how Bersheeba became a “Jewish” city, if you are trying to make a moral argument against an “evacuation”.

        catalan: “I would imagine that Israelis would rather starve than agree to that.”

        Oh, so it’s not BDS “starving” them, but their own choice.

        catalan: The blockade is essential and supported across the political spectrum in Israel.”

        Yes, it is amazing how many Jews support genocide, isn’t it?

        catalan: “To put it bluntly, any problems caused by BDS can be shifted towards the Arabs.”

        Yep, blaming the victims is the prefered method or racist perpetrators and those who support them. And you will never forgive the Palestinians for the Nakba, right?

      • catalan
        catalan
        September 1, 2018, 8:46 am

        “if you are trying to make a moral argument against an “evacuation”.” Talkback
        I don’t think there is a “moral” argument to be made about things like borders. Borders are inherently immoral in my opinion. I am making an argument about a conflict between two warring parties who detest each other. I think that the boycott of Wonderbra or Dr Pepper will not make Israelis accept millions of refugees. I also think that if there was any scarcity created by BDS – of food or medicine or jobs, the Arabs of Gaza or the West Bank would feel it way before any Israeli does. Not enough of a life saving medicine – guess who gets it first. Finally, this whole debate is purely academic – Israelis live some of the longest lives in the world. On your side, I see only anger and unacceptable demands. By all means, continue with the current strategy of demanding that Hamas be allowed in Israel! I think it’s important that Israelis understand the end game.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        September 1, 2018, 5:27 pm

        catalan: “Borders are inherently immoral in my opinion.”

        Really? Than why do you claim that Palestinians shouldn’t return, because there is “not enogh room”?

        catalan: “On your side, I see only anger and unacceptable demands.”

        Yep. It is unacceptable to demand the end of Jewish Apartheid. At least in your Kahane continuum. And please remind everybody not to be angry, if Nonjews do to Jews what Jews did and still do to Palestinians. Or even worse. Maybe we willl be more accepting the next time if everyone follows your crime against humanity embracing attitude.

      • catalan
        catalan
        September 1, 2018, 7:08 pm

        “And please remind everybody not to be angry, if Nonjews do to Jews what Jews did and still do to Palestinians. “ Talkback
        Non Jews already destroyed the lives of my family. Killing our relatives in Macedonia including the kids, deporting my grandfather to various camps, putting my grandmother away with a 2 year old girl. Whatever. I have no anger about any of it. Anger is a very bad adviser which perhaps explains the failure of your strategy. But by all means, if you think that “boycotting” Wonderbra and Dr Pepper will help you achieve your goals, be my guest.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 1, 2018, 7:39 pm

        “But by all means, if you think that “boycotting” Wonderbra and Dr Pepper will help you achieve your goals, be my guest.”

        All right! It was a close-run thing, but we finally got “catalan’s” permission. Okay, BDS can start now.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        September 2, 2018, 5:23 am

        catalan: ” I have no anger about any of it.”

        Of course not. It is not happening right now and right here from the Palestinian’s point of view.

        catalan: “But by all means, if you think that “boycotting” Wonderbra and Dr Pepper will help you achieve your goals, be my guest.”

        I know that you need to belittle BDS as if it was only about boycotting Wonderbra and Dr Pepper. But you can’t distract from Israel’s reactions to it and how much effort it puts into silencing and criminalizing it worldwide. If you need to support fascism and Apartheid, be my guest. Karma can be a bitch.

      • catalan
        catalan
        September 2, 2018, 9:15 am

        “Karma can be a bitch.” Talkback
        Indeed – look at the situation in Gaza. It’s karma. And I am petrified that you won’t buy Nestle Crunch and Wonderbra for your wife. The horror!

      • catalan
        catalan
        September 2, 2018, 9:35 am

        Hey Mooser,
        I was thinking, for every time you “zing” me, there is a Jew arriving to settle in Israel:
        https://m.jpost.com/Israel-News/From-the-Ukraine-to-the-Gaza-border-IFCJ-brings-400-more-olim-566298

  5. mondonut
    mondonut
    August 30, 2018, 12:55 pm

    Yes. Eliminate the UNRWA and place any real Palestinian refugees in a UNHCR program.

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      August 30, 2018, 1:25 pm

      Shameless vulture.

    • Maghlawatan
      Maghlawatan
      August 30, 2018, 2:15 pm

      What happened to tikkun olam? The heartlessness of Zionism is fathomless.

      • mondonut
        mondonut
        August 31, 2018, 12:59 am

        Why is it heartless for Palestinian refugees to rely on the very same program as every other refugee in the entire world?

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        August 31, 2018, 3:41 am

        Because Israel has never stopped persecuting Gaza.

    • Talkback
      Talkback
      August 31, 2018, 5:36 am

      mondonut: “Yes. Eliminate the UNRWA and place any real Palestinian refugees inro a UNHCR program.”

      How many times do we have to remember you of the fact that the refugee status is also transfered to descendants under UNHCR mandate?

      “UNHCR‘s Handbook on Procedures and Criteria for determining Refugee Status provides in paragraph 184: “If the head of a family meets the criteria of the definition, [for refugee status] his dependants are normally granted refugee status according to the principle of family unity.””
      https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/features/exploding-myths-unrwa-unhcr-and-palestine-refugees

      Are you dishonest, educationally impaired or both?

  6. mondonut
    mondonut
    August 30, 2018, 1:02 pm

    There is no International Law that prevents the US recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and the relocation its diplomatic missions. And no, UNSC Resolution 478 is not International Law, as it was not adopted under Chapter VII of the UN Charter.

    • oldgeezer
      oldgeezer
      August 30, 2018, 1:45 pm

      @mondonut

      Yes it is. You don’t understand the difference between Chapters VI and VII obviously.

    • Maghlawatan
      Maghlawatan
      August 30, 2018, 2:16 pm

      There is might is right. One day it will be applied to Israel’s Jews and no whining will be entertained.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        August 30, 2018, 2:32 pm

        @mg

        Right. We get that. it’s been that way since day one ’48. At least your not shy about it. don’t pretend it’s ever been any different with folks like you. the ex prime minister of jordan just said it simply and in plain language.

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        August 30, 2018, 2:56 pm

        Dabakr

        International law works for most countries.
        Israel thinks it it is above international law. When countries think they are above the laws of war and eventually lose they don’t get the laws of war. This is what happened to Germany in 1945 after total war in the Soviet Union and what will happen to Israel too.
        Nothing to do with Judaism. More like a law of nature.
        Israel really needs to connect with Hillel.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        August 30, 2018, 3:20 pm

        “After the United States gobbled up California and half of Mexico, and we were stripped down to nothing, territorial expansion suddenly becomes a crime. It’s been going on for centuries, and it will still go on.”–Hermann Goering

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        August 30, 2018, 4:41 pm

        Might sometimes overcomes right but is not right, not in any conceivable understanding of those ideas. If might is used against right the fact must be remembered so that it can be put right if and when possible and so that the consciences of wrongdoers may be wounded. If restitution becomes possible then that too should happen, restitution not being the same as revenge. Not that I see much prospect of restitution in the near future.

    • amigo
      amigo
      August 30, 2018, 2:21 pm

      “There is no International Law that prevents the US recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and the relocation its diplomatic missions.”mondonut

      Hogwash!!.

      All UNSCR are binding on all UN Members.Period.

      Therefore, the USA is in contravention of the Res by recognising , first , Jerusalem as the Capitol of Israel and second by moving it,s Embassy .

      “Full text of Resolution 478

      The Security Council,

      Recalling its resolution 476 (1980),

      Reaffirming again that the acquisition of territory by force is inadmissible,

      Deeply concerned over the enactment of a “basic law” in the Israeli Knesset proclaiming a change in the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem, with its implications for peace and security,

      Noting that Israel has not complied with resolution 476 (1980),

      Reaffirming its determination to examine practical ways and means, in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, to secure the full implementation of its resolution 476 (1980), in the event of non-compliance by Israel,

      1. Censures in the strongest terms the enactment by Israel of the “basic law” on Jerusalem and the refusal to comply with relevant Security Council resolutions;

      2. Affirms that the enactment of the “basic law” by Israel constitutes a violation of international law and does not affect the continued application of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since June 1967, including Jerusalem;

      3. Determines that all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel, the occupying Power, which have altered or purport to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem, and in particular the recent “basic law” on Jerusalem, are null and void and must be rescinded forthwith;

      4. Affirms also that this action constitutes a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;

      5. Decides not to recognize the “basic law” and such other actions by Israel that, as a result of this law, seek to alter the character and status of Jerusalem and calls upon:

      (a) All Member States to accept this decision;

      (b) Those States that have established diplomatic missions at Jerusalem to withdraw such missions from the Holy City;

      6. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the implementation of the present resolution before 15 November 1980;

      7. Decides to remain seized of this serious situation.

      Adopted at the 2245th meeting by 14 votes to none, with 1 abstention (United States of America).

      You and your pip squeak tin pot rogue nation can deny/bloviate and bs to your hearts desire, it doesn,t change facts.

      • amigo
        amigo
        August 30, 2018, 2:59 pm

        And before you respond with more zioblather–The GCS are enshrined in International Law as ratified by 196 nations on 12 Aug 1949.

        “2. Affirms that the enactment of the “basic law” by Israel constitutes a violation of international law and does not affect the continued application of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since June 1967, including Jerusalem;”

        But we get it, Israel is right and 196 nations are wrong.
        Tick , Tick,Tick.

      • mondonut
        mondonut
        August 30, 2018, 3:18 pm

        @amigo Hogwash!!.

        If it is contrary to International Law as you falsely claim, then why in the world is it being ignored by Belgium, France, Greece, Italy, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, the United Kingdom and the Holy See?
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_consulates-general_in_Jerusalem

        That plus then Secretary of State Ed Muskie categorically denied the resolution dictated where the US could locate its diplomats:

        “In our judgment, this provision is not binding. It is without force. And we reject it as a disruptive attempt to dictate to other nations. It does nothing to promote a resolution of the difficult problems facing Israel and its neighbors. It does nothing to advance the cause of peace.”

      • amigo
        amigo
        August 30, 2018, 4:05 pm

        mondonut , before you hit the send button , it is advisable to check the link you are providing.—ie read the info provided.The answer to your question is right there in the first 10 lines.

        That way you will void appearing like a buffoon.

        Quit wasting our time with unsupported claims.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        August 30, 2018, 4:17 pm

        That a law i# broken does not by itself prove that it is not a valid law.

      • gamal
        gamal
        August 30, 2018, 4:42 pm

        “it is not a valid law”

        By what means does a “law” achieve validity?

      • gamal
        gamal
        August 30, 2018, 5:15 pm

        “By what means”

        in extentutation man has found all his Keith Hudson Affair vinyl and thus may feel that this music is the truth, arrogant is how I hold on to my youth, the old fashioned way, then dynamic fashion…with u roy, dynamic fashion way…but we still going to die…so dance and sing.

        keith hudson the great producer and uroy dynamic fashion for all my American friends.

        https://youtu.be/bobjNbBpV_o

      • mondonut
        mondonut
        August 30, 2018, 6:04 pm

        @amigo Quit wasting our time with unsupported claims.

        Nice try genius.

        UNSC 478 calls for “(b) Those States that have established diplomatic missions at Jerusalem to withdraw such missions from the Holy City”

        Withdraw missions from the Holy City, Jerusalem. It sounds pretty simple, establishing diplomatic missions at Jerusalem would violate the request to not have diplomatic missions at Jerusalem. For any country that considers UNSC 478 to be binding (not the U.S.), this is a pretty obvious conflict.

      • amigo
        amigo
        August 30, 2018, 7:53 pm

        You just don,t get do you .

        “Jerusalem
        The countries which operate Consulates to Jerusalem, generally do not regard them as diplomatic missions to Israel or Palestinian Authority, but as diplomatic missions to Jerusalem as corpus separatum. Most of the countries with consulates in Jerusalem have separate embassies in Tel Aviv that are accredited to Israel.

        This very anomalous diplomatic practice is a result of the unresolved issue of the status of Jerusalem. Under the United Nations Partition Plan of 1947, Jerusalem was to become a corpus separatum, under international control, separate from both the Jewish state and the Arab one whose creation the partition plan envisaged; that would have logically entailed various countries having a separate diplomatic representation in Jerusalem. While the corpus separatum idea was never implemented, the status of Jerusalem remains disputed and unresolved. The international community never recognized the declaration of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital in 1949 or the annexation of East Jerusalem to Israel in 1967. Thus the anomalous Jerusalem consulates serve as a convenient way for various countries to have a diplomatic presence in the city without recognizing such Israeli “accomplished facts”.

        So to clarify it for you””

        The international community has never recognised Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel and so the consulates you refer to are credited to Jerusalem as a “Corpus Seperatum” , agreeing with the text of UNSCR 478.

        BTW You left article (A) out of your response;

        478 calls on “(a) All Member States to accept this decision;”.

        The US or anyone else does not get to cherry pick parts of a UNSCR.

        Do you get it now genius.

        2

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        August 30, 2018, 8:39 pm

        “By what means does a “law” achieve validity?”

        Royal assent.

        (I was never able to believe that American laws were real laws, though I did my best to obey them.)

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        August 30, 2018, 9:17 pm

        @mondonut

        Diplomatic mission normally means the main embassy. Following the withdrawal in 2006 by Salvador and Costa Rica not a single country maintained it’s embassy in Jerusalem.

        You can’t decipher diplospeak with the day to day interpretation of words.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        August 30, 2018, 10:29 pm

        This is the moment to say Oy Gewalt or something like that.

        Our resident Nut doesn’t know the difference between a consulate and an embassy.
        No, really.

        Shows how little respect we get from the Propaganda and Diaspora Ministry.

      • mondonut
        mondonut
        August 31, 2018, 12:46 am

        @echinococcus, doesn’t know the difference between a consulate and an embassy.

        Well the UN certainly knows the difference, which is likely why UNSC 478 did not single out embassies. By stating “diplomatic missions” the resolution covers any and all.

        Embassies and Consulates are both diplomatic missions.

      • mondonut
        mondonut
        August 31, 2018, 12:55 am

        @oldgeezer August 30, 2018, 9:17 pm

        Diplomatic mission normally means the main embassy when there is one. In the absence of an embassy the diplomatic mission obviously refers to the consulate. For the countries I listed their diplomatic missions to Jerusalem are their respective consulates.

      • mondonut
        mondonut
        August 31, 2018, 1:18 am

        @amigo, You just don,t get do you .

        Sure I do. UNSC 478 did not say anything about diplomatic missions to Israel or the Palestinian Authority, but diplomatic missions at Jerusalem. Regardless of the intent, diplomatic missions in Jerusalem are diplomatic missions in Jerusalem. UNSC 478 requested that states withdraw their diplomatic missions from Jerusalem. Instead what you see is that States replaced their embassies with Consulates. Which certainly indicates what those States think about the binding nature of the resolution.

        And yes 478 “calls upon” Member states to accept the decision, strange language for something that was supposedly binding. In response to the REQUEST, the U.S. answered by removing the embassy, replacing it with a Consulate and reserving the right to return an embassy at their own discretion.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        August 31, 2018, 5:59 am

        Consulates can be placed anywhere (even Jerusalem) and are normally located outside the capital (Tel-Aviv, according to those who abide to international law).

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        August 31, 2018, 6:15 am

        gamal: “By what means does a “law” achieve validity?”

        When it benefits Israel or the US to abide by it or to accuse others of violating it.

      • Nathan
        Nathan
        September 1, 2018, 3:53 pm

        amigo – I think that time has come to reveal the hidden truth about the conflict in the Middle East. It’s a political conflict. You can scream at the top of your voice that the law says that there shouldn’t be diplomatic representation in Jerusalem, and it’s really very insignificant. The Americans have established their embassy to Israel in Jerusalem, and that’s it. Israel has scored a diplomatic victory. No one is going to take the USA to court, nor will the Security Council take action against the Americans (or against the other states that will move their embassies to Jerusalem).

        There are people who think that Israel shouldn’t have come into being, and they are capable of quoting international documents to prove their point. There are people who think that Israel should have come into being, and they too are capable of quoting international documents to prove their point. How is such a thing possible? Well, it’s very simple. First, one has an opinion, and only later one finds the “proof” that corroborates his pre-conceived notions. In other words, one first has a political position, and international law is merely a tool for the political debate afterwards. Even the UN decisions that you know so well were adopted by political entities (the member states) based on their political considerations.

        If a person believes that the State of Israel shouldn’t exist, what difference does it make if the US embassy is in Jerusalem or in Tel-Aviv? A person who objects to the founding and the existence of Israel is against there being an embassy anywhere in the country, period.

        Sometimes you can get into a discussion with an anti-Israel person, and you hear a very long list of grievances. When you get your chance to stick in a question, you can ask this person if the conflict will come to its end by ending the occupation of the West Bank, knocking down the wall, removing the US embassy from Jerusalem, returning the refugees, etc, etc, etc, etc. The honest answer is “no” (the dishonest answer is “we’ll see”). So, why is an anti-Israel person busy with presenting grievances or quoting international law? Just state your political case that you think that there shouldn’t be Israel, and present your ideas how you might achieve such an outcome. The location of the US embassy doesn’t really matter to you, does it?

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 2, 2018, 3:59 am

        @nth

        Well, that certainly makes too much sense to be considered.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        September 5, 2018, 1:39 pm

        @mondonut

        Take another one off your list. Paraguay moves embassy back to Tel Aviv

        https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Paraguay-returning-its-embassy-to-Tel-Aviv-from-Jerusalem-566597

    • Talkback
      Talkback
      August 31, 2018, 6:48 am

      mondonut: “And no, UNSC Resolution 478 is not International Law, as it was not adopted under Chapter VII of the UN Charter.”

      There we go again. Mondonut’s unwillingness to differentiate between international law and a resolution which is based on international law. And the only difference beetwen VI and VII is just how the Security Council is going to deal with a violation of international law.

      “Two of the decisions contained in the resolution concerned the illegality of the Basic Law Jerusalem and violations of the Geneva Convention which are regarded as serious violations of customary international law.[6] The Repertory of Practice of United Nations Organs is a legal publication, which analyzes and records the decisions of the UN organs.[7] It states that the decisions were adopted by the Security Council acting on behalf of the members under Article 24.[8] Although they were not adopted under Chapter VII of the Charter, the organization considers determinations regarding illegal situations to be binding upon all of its members.[9] The Repertory says: “The question whether Article 24 confers general powers on the Security Council ceased to be a subject of discussion following the advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice rendered on 21 June 1971 in connection with the question of Namibia (ICJ Reports, 1971, page 16).”[8]

      The subsequent advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice expressed the view that all States are under an obligation not to recognize the illegal situation in and around East Jerusalem.”
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_478

      So the US violated its obligation not to recognize this illegal situation.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso
      August 31, 2018, 11:11 am

      @mondonut

      “There is no International Law that prevents the US recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and the relocation [of] its diplomatic missions.”

      If ignorance is bliss, you must be very happy.

      The ongoing occupation of Palestinian and other Arab lands, including East Jerusalem, the entity known as “Israel” invaded during the war it launched on 5 June 1967 – yes, as is now common knowledge, Israel started the 1967 war – are in flagrant violation of the UN Charter, as reiterated in the preamble of UNSC Resolution 242 (which governs all that follows) – “Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war…” The inclusion of this sentence in the opening paragraph reflects the fact that the Security Council must abide by the terms of the UN Charter, i.e., Chapter I Article 1 (1); Chapter I Article 2(4); and Chapter VII, Article 51, which reject territorial expansion by force of arms under any circumstances. The principal framer of the resolution, Lord Caradon of the United Kingdom, later noted that without this preambular statement “there could have been no unanimous vote” in the Security Council.

      On 15 September 1967, during Security Council discussions leading to the drafting of Resolution 242, UN Secretary-General U Thant announced that “everyone agrees that there should be no territorial gains by military conquest.” (To state the obvious, the entity known as “Israel” is also in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention (e.g., “Collective Punishment”) and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which are binding on all UN members.)

      The entity known as “Israel” argues that as the English version of article i of Paragraph 1 omits the definite article (i.e., “the”) before “territories,” Resolution 242 does not require it to withdraw completely from all lands it conquered and occupied in June 1967.

      Indeed, by calling for “withdrawal from territories occupied in the recent conflict,” Resolution 242 defines precisely what lands “Israeli armed forces” must vacate. To wit: All of East Jerusalem (along with its illegally extended boundaries) was “occupied in the recent conflict;” hence, Israel must withdraw completely. All of the West Bank was “occupied in the recent conflict;” hence, Israel must withdraw completely. All of the Gaza Strip was “occupied in the recent conflict;” hence, Israel must withdraw completely. All of Syria’s Golan Heights, Lebanon’s Shebaa Farms and Egypt’s Sinai were “occupied in the recent conflict;” hence Israel must withdraw completely. (Israel did eventually withdraw from Sinai.)

      BTW, the Russian and French versions of Resolution 242 do include the definite article, “the.”
      As Abba Eban, then foreign minister for the entity known as “Israel” revealed at the time, he understood full well that Resolution 242 calls for complete withdrawal: “The words ‘in the recent conflict’ convert the principle of eliminating occupation into a mathematically precise formula for restoring the June 4 Map.” During negotiations to determine Resolution 242’s wording, Abba Eban failed in an attempt to delete the phrase “in the recent conflict.” (Comment by Foreign Minister of Israel and Telegram 3164, UK Mission in New York to Foreign Office, 12 Nov 1967)

      Moshe Dayan also realized that Resolution 242 calls for full withdrawal. In June 1968, during a closed session of the Labor Party, he counseled against endorsing Resolution 242 as “it means withdrawal to the 4 June [1967] boundaries, and because we are in conflict with the SC [Security Council] on that resolution.” (Daniel Dishon (ed.), Middle East Record, v. 4, 1968 (Jerusalem: 1973), p. 247)

      Furthermore:
      In the summer of 1967, “[t]he legal counsel of the Foreign Ministry, Theodor Meron, was asked [by then Israeli Prime Minister Levi Eshkol] whether international law allowed settlement in the newly conquered land. In a memo marked ‘Top Secret,’ Meron wrote unequivocally: ‘My conclusion is that civilian settlement in the administered territories contravenes the explicit provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention.’” (New York Times, 10 March 2006)

      Security Council Resolution 465 (1 March 1980) “determines that all measures taken by Israel to change the physical character, demographic composition, institutional structure or status of the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, or any part thereof, have no legal validity…”

      Israel’s 1980 annexation of East Jerusalem was rejected by the UN Security Council in Resolution 476 (June 30, 1980): “all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel, the Occupying Power, which purport to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem have no legal validity and constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.”

      On 24 February 2004, the U.S. State Department reaffirmed its earlier position in a report entitled Israel and the Occupied Territories, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices: “Israel occupied the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights after the 1967 War…. The international community does not recognize Israel’s sovereignty over any part of the occupied territories.”

      UN Security Council Resolution 2334, December 23, 2016: “Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations, and reaffirming, inter alia, the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by force,
      “Reaffirming the obligation of Israel, the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, and recalling the advisory opinion rendered on 9 July 2004 by the International Court of Justice,
      “Condemning all measures aimed at altering the demographic composition, character and status of the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, including, inter alia, the construction and expansion of settlements, transfer of Israeli settlers, confiscation of land, demolition of homes and displacement of Palestinian civilians, in violation of international humanitarian law and relevant resolutions,….”
      “1. Reaffirms that the establishment by Israel of settlements in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, has no legal validity and constitutes a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the achievement of the two-State solution and a just, lasting and comprehensive peace;
      “2. Reiterates its demand that Israel immediately and completely cease all settlement activities in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, and that it fully respect all of its legal obligations in this regard;….

      In short, there is no special provision in hard won international law that enables the entity known as ‘Israel” to violate it with impunity.

  7. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    August 30, 2018, 3:20 pm

    If this inhumanity continues it may be time to start thinking about boycotting Jewish businesses in the US and Europe. Zionism is out of control. Nobody says anything. Zionists will bring up the 30s. So what.
    It reminds me of Finkelstein’s line in the Waterloo video. Zionists use the martyrdom of his family to justify the brutalisation of the Palestinians. Zionists are sick bastards.

    https://youtu.be/6O5zgXeCynQ

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      August 30, 2018, 5:44 pm

      Maghlawatan,

      Boycotting Zionist businesses is of course long due.

      I dunno why you write about “Jewish businesses”, you some kind of nut or somesuch?
      There is a chance of a Jewish business owner or controlling shareowner not being Zionist. Also, many corporations not under Jewish control do enthusiastically aid and abet Zionists.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        August 30, 2018, 6:14 pm

        Very important that that distinction be made.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        August 30, 2018, 6:43 pm

        @echinococcus

        We often disagree but you are spot on. Jewish businesses may well be Palestinian supporters as well.

        Boycotting someone due to their religion would be wrong. Just plain wrong. Probably illegal to organize in most countries as well.

        Boycotting all zionists, including North American/Western, Christian zionist owned businesses is long overdue, necessary and moral. Getting a complete list would likely be difficult but those people who support the rogue state of Israel’s activities need to be called out, named and shamed. Oh and boycotted.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        August 30, 2018, 9:10 pm

        OG,
        Boycotting in the US based upon religion is illegal. So is discrimination based upon national origin. Political views are not protected.

        “National origin discrimination involves treating people (applicants or employees) unfavorably because they are from a particular country or part of the world, because of ethnicity or accent, or because they appear to be of a certain ethnic background (even if they are not).

        National origin discrimination also can involve treating people unfavorably because they are married to (or associated with) a person of a certain national origin.”

        http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/nationalorigin.cfm

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        August 30, 2018, 9:13 pm

        “I dunno why you write about “Jewish businesses”, you some kind of nut or somesuch?”
        Because dear Echi, for many folks anti-Zionism is a fig leaf for anti-semitism.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        August 30, 2018, 10:07 pm

        No need for a complete list to start. There are several lists of the large corporations that aid abet the Zionists.

        (Also, of course the distinction is important but unfortunately, speaking statistically, the risk of going wrong is very small.)

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        August 30, 2018, 10:18 pm

        And now the unsurgically obtuse Johnny, who feels he must give his two cents to protect Zion, no matter how fake his coin will be this time, too.

        Anyone who says that Zionism represents Jews has no call to complain when other people listen to his propaganda and do as he says by confusing the two. In his shoes, I’d keep my trap shut, and how!

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        August 30, 2018, 10:38 pm

        Oh, and our surgeon also invented that boycotting by private parties based on anything would be illegal in the US.

        We’re not in Europe, Bright Star. You can’t refuse to serve a customer based on religion, skin color, etc. etc. but you can patronize whoever you wish, and speech is unimpeded –you can call to do anything.

        That said, of course Zionists are the target and that’s a malignant political organization.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        August 30, 2018, 10:56 pm

        @jon66

        Thanks captain obvious.

        Not sure why you typed so much to contribute nothing

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        August 30, 2018, 11:15 pm

        Echi,
        Treating people differently because of national origin is illegal discrimination in the US. Your particular bigotry may be difficult to prove and prosecute but hat doesn’t make it legal.

      • annie
        annie
        August 31, 2018, 1:55 am

        Boycotting in the US based upon religion is illegal.

        but zionism isn’t a religion. and boycott for political means is fair game based on the supreme court. that said, i think it’s best to stick to businesses that actually $upport the occupation. if a person is a zionist (jew or non jew) but do not actually send their money their or profit off the occupation, i don’t think targeting them is a wise decision. it’s sort of mccarthyest, do you or do you not support the occupation? don’t boycott someone’s mind. once a business gets behind monetary support, they are fair game.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        August 31, 2018, 2:37 am

        @an

        And that is the big shabang. How is Zionism going to be defined in the US mainstream? We know what your boss has been fantasizing about for years with the nation’s so called Jewish youth (i know as many kids of American Jews that came here to marry and live then I know of the far left radical chic elite baby 1% anti Zionist). Sure, some return to the US for family and some stay in israel for family. That being the gist of the dual loyalty slur. I’m not disputing what Phil sees as growth of anti Zionism but I’m not seeing any huge turn that won’t be balanced out like the issue of Israeli support by Americans has it has for decades. (The growing emergence of Arab American political presence /power is one exception)

        I would still argue that with over 90% (you say less-80-75%) of worldwide Jews identifying as Zionist along with the views of a majority of Catholics and other Christians the demonizing of ‘zionism’ as separate from Jews is going to be continuously limited with only small ups and downs. And g-d forbid there is a war with the north and south, you can forget it. Americans will come together and support /protect Israel just as Israel will be trying to shield ALL its citizens from the destruction of war, Arab, jew, druze, Christian etc. Americans, most Africans, South Americans, Aussie, and probably China India and parts of Asia will get it too. Sorry to sound so arrogant but I truly see this as most likely. The Arab block has so much shit to get together in their own houses and the Palestinians have hitched their wagon to them and the idiot far left Europeans and feckless UN. I wish their leaders made better decisions but right now, and from the tone of the other commenters, here you can tell that they are banking on their ability to corner Israel between lawfare, the one state vs. 2 state and their perceived ability to destroy jewish sovereignty in israel while maintaining a jew free west Bank and Gaza and eventually attaining the ability and wealth to wage a war where they fully believe they will take back all of Israel, just like many say vocally all the time. best laid plans….

      • annie
        annie
        August 31, 2018, 7:14 am

        I would still argue that with over 90% (you say less-80-75%) of worldwide Jews identifying as Zionist

        i say? where did i say 80-75% of jews are zionists? and what is this:

        far left radical chic elite baby 1% anti Zionist ?

        I’m not seeing any huge turn that won’t be balanced out like the issue of Israeli support by Americans has it has for decades.

        in your dreams maybe. go convince the ministry of strategic affairs and the lobbiest, because they see a “dark” future: https://orientxxi.info/magazine/how-israel-spies-on-us-citizens,2598

        The documentary shows Vaknin-Gil admitting in a Knesset hearing: “Today we [have] lost the second generation of Jews, which are the millennial generation of Jews. I hear this from their parents, who come and explain to me what a hard time they’re having with their kids at Friday dinners. They don’t recognise the state of Israel and don’t see us as an entity to be admired.”

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        August 31, 2018, 5:26 am

        Jon S: “Because dear Echi, for many folks anti-Zionism is a fig leaf for anti-semitism.”

        Really? Who called for a boycott of “Jewish businesses”? And for what reasons?

        And is Zionism a fig leaf for Neo-Nazism?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        August 31, 2018, 7:12 am

        “Because dear Echi, for many folks anti-Zionism is a fig leaf for anti-semitism.”

        This may be the case, but we must continue our opposition to Zionism nonetheless. You won’t want to accept this, but the fact is that anti-Semitism is a tiny problem compared to the monstrosity of Zionism.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        August 31, 2018, 10:58 am

        Talk,
        Have you not followed the thread? You didn’t see Mag’s call for “to start thinking about boycotting Jewish businesses in the US ”

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 31, 2018, 2:36 pm

        ” for many folks anti-Zionism is a fig leaf for anti-semitism.”

        Yes, that could be. In fact, it seems almost obvious that could happen.

        And the Zionists have never taken that into account? Haven’t developed a plan to deal with it?

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        August 31, 2018, 3:19 pm

        I don’t understand Zionists. The Holocaust is supposed to give them a free pass since the Holocaust is the worst possible. And they can do whatever they want to whoever in order to ensure the future of Israel . Says who?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 31, 2018, 3:59 pm

        Gee, “Jon 66”, there isn’t anything, not one thing that anti-semites haven’t accused Jews of, as individuals or in concert.

        This, of course entitles us to an absolute immunity against any and all charges!

        Funny isn’t it, “Jon 66”? Why for most minority people, the stereotype counts against them, that is makes the accusation more likely to be true! (“they’re all like that”)

        But in our case, the stereotypes immunize us! What a great trick! Wonder how we worked it.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 31, 2018, 5:43 pm

        “I would still argue that with over 90% (you say less-80-75%) of worldwide Jews identifying as Zionist”

        Why, “Dabakr may be right. We’ve all heard it argued that a Jewish anti-zionist is just another kind of Zionist. And I bet that’s what a substantial number of those “identifying as Zionists” will look like to Dabakr, too

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        August 31, 2018, 6:20 pm

        @annie

        I didn’t quote you on the % but there have been times in the past where you questioned my source. I just assumed you won’t accept a high percentage on face value but do understand that my point, be it 90 or less then 85% is not disputed (at least afaik).

        The radical chic is a reference to Tom Wolff and his biting satire of late 60s-70s elite upper West side left wing Jews/celebrities and their support for organizations that were explicitly anti-jew and anti-zionist. But it sure was fashionable.

        The current kids, white, black, tan and upper middle class who attend prestigious left leaning universities, imo, fit the same bill. The 1% comment is a reference to most of these rich privileged babies never giving up their foothold in the 1% as they mature out of radical university bias.

        The Jewish lobbies have been predicting doom and gloom for decades. It comes in waves like most things but, as you know, raising money is key in propaganda and PR wars and this is exactly what sites like MW and EI are trying to outrage people into contributing to in their own causes.

        As for the War over the meaning of zionism…i agree that will continue to heat up. After all, zionists survived the 70s UN fiasco so there are plans in place…. Including scaring the base to give funds. I just don’t think that the vast majority of the world gives that much of a shit about Zionism= racism. Sure, countries aligned with Israel’s arch enemies, like Iran, the ANC and Malaysia spew vitriol against Jews but it doesn’t have much meaning to any progress by those Arab Muslim neighbors lusting to defeat Zionism and destroy Jewish sovereignty in the Jewish nation that the UN has stated will live beside an Arab nation( that by Palestinian demand will be jew free).

        So, my point about the Arab nations needing a MASSIVE amount of effort to get their own shit in order makes the idea of crushing Zionism in israel a far fetched goal for any time in the next few decades.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        August 31, 2018, 8:40 pm

        And for many people whether Christian, Jewish or other their zionism seems to be a fig leaf for their virulent racism. Far too many.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        September 1, 2018, 1:08 am

        OG,
        “And for many people whether Christian, Jewish or other their zionism seems to be a fig leaf for their virulent racism. Far too many.”
        Which race are these folks discriminating against?

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        September 1, 2018, 6:31 am

        DaBakr: “After all, zionists survived the 70s UN fiasco so there are plans in place….”

        Yes, those poor, poor, poor victims. It was a miracle, because they were helpless and powerless.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        September 1, 2018, 6:42 am

        Jon66: “Have you not followed the thread? You didn’t see Mag’s call for “to start thinking about boycotting Jewish businesses in the US.”

        In Europe, too. But you missed my second question. Why? Simply because they are Jewish? And would you claim that what Jews do to Nonjews in Palestine is genuinly Jewish and therefore can’t be changed?

        DaBakr claims that 90% of Jews identify as Zionists. Would it be ok to boycott 90% of Jewish business worldwide?

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        September 1, 2018, 6:51 am

        Mooser: “But in our case, the stereotypes immunize us! What a great trick! Wonder how we worked it.”

        In Jew Jitsu it’s called the Herzl manouvre.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 1, 2018, 12:23 pm

        “In Jew Jitsu it’s called the Herzl manouvre.”

        It’s all a matter of vibrating at the right frequency.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 2, 2018, 4:08 am

        @talk

        It had nothing to do with being ‘victims’. it was simply an outrage for the Arab/muslim bock to push such a resolution when they were and still are some of the worst racist bigots on the planet. A few Arab nations still feel entitled to enslave black African Christians yet the UN is toothless when it comes to fellow Muslims.
        . The fact remains the the assholiest rez ever passed by the UN was overturned as anything similar will be as well. It may have done some harm to some Israeli programs but it was more of an embarrassment to Israel’s major allies and trading partners who cringed at the hypocrisy.

        P’s it would b be hard to boycott 90% of the world’s Jews without being pegged with the term jew hater but I’m sure their would be plenty like you who couldn’t give a fig about that

    • catalan
      catalan
      August 30, 2018, 6:14 pm

      “ it may be time to start thinking about boycotting Jewish businesses in the US and Europe”
      There will be soon no Jews left in Europe so irrelevant; as for the US, good luck stirring ethnic trouble. Too many religions, nationalities and races to pin all against one. Can’t happen. But it will be interesting to see who starved first, Gaza or Israel. I think that’s a bet the Israelis will take.

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        August 31, 2018, 1:55 am

        There are plenty of Zionists in Europe. They like to support Israel from a distance but would never live there because it is a kip.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        August 31, 2018, 12:24 pm

        Mag,
        “There are plenty of Zionists in Europe. ”
        You had suggested Jewish businesses not Zionist.
        Are you now suggested boycotting non-Jewish zionists as well?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 31, 2018, 4:02 pm

        “Are you now suggested boycotting non-Jewish zionists as well?”

        Of course! Do you think we would discriminate by religion?

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        August 31, 2018, 8:03 pm

        @jon66

        Learn something new everyday… I had no idea that caterpillar up coca cola etc were Jewish.

        @Mag

        Jon66 doesn’t really care. He knows it is illegal in the USand he is good with that.
        He also knows it is quite legal in Israel and he is fine with that also.

        No double standards for him!

      • jon s
        jon s
        September 1, 2018, 1:56 am

        Talkback,
        You’re confusing me with another commenter. It’s always interesting to get a response on a thread on which I haven’t commenter. Until now.
        As to Maghlawatan’s anti-Jewish boycott, would that include boycotting Mondoweiss?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 1, 2018, 12:34 pm

        “You’re confusing me with another commenter.”

        Because it’s not worth making any kind of distinction. “Jon s” or “Jon 66”, what’s the difference?

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        September 1, 2018, 4:43 pm

        jon s: “You’re confusing me with another commenter.”

        Nah, I’m just confusing two nicks of the same canary.

    • Jon66
      Jon66
      August 31, 2018, 10:56 am

      Annie,
      The proposal from Mag was not to boycott based upon politics, but rather upon religion.”to start thinking about boycotting Jewish businesses in the US ”
      Boycotting based upon political view is fine, but how do you feel about Mag’s bigotry based upon religion?

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        August 31, 2018, 11:41 am

        Jon, Zionism is all about double standards. Gaza is pauperised on the basis of religion. Palestinians are tortured on the basis of religion. Road access in the West Bank is based on religion. And then you whine about boycotting by religion. Israel is afraid of what the goys think about it which is why so much money goes into hasbara. When enough goys join the dots it is going to get very ugly. It would be better to fix Israel before it all blows up.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        August 31, 2018, 3:43 pm

        Mag,
        I’m not upset that you wish to boycott Jewish businesses rather than Zionist ones regardless of the religion of the owners. It makes your position much clearer. It’s the “Jewish” part that bothers you more than the Zionist. I obviously don’t condone your bigotry, but at least you are being honest. If only more BDS supporters were as transparent.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 31, 2018, 6:14 pm

        ” It’s the “Jewish” part that bothers you more than the Zionist.”

        Well, if your buddy “Dabakr” (an actual Israeli) is right about Zionism, “Mag” can hardly go wrong by boycotting “Jewish businesses”.

        I thought the unanimity of “the Jewish people” in supporting Zionism was a big point with you Zionists. Jews are always told we must support Zionism because we are Jewish. Why, I would think you would take it as a compliment if some of the blowback affected non-Zionist Jews.

      • amigo
        amigo
        August 31, 2018, 7:08 pm

        Jon 66 , As you hate (fear) BDS so much , this of good news won,t make your day any better.

        https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/nora-barrows-friedman/headliner-lana-del-rey-drops-out-israel-music-festival

        I seem to recall nuttyahoo claiming some 18 months ago , that Israel had defeated BDS.

        I can understand your consternation when the oppressed fight back and muck up your zionist plans.How dare they oppose their superiors.

      • eljay
        eljay
        August 31, 2018, 8:25 pm

        || Jon66: Mag,
        I’m not upset that you wish to boycott Jewish businesses rather than Zionist ones regardless of the religion of the owners. It makes your position much clearer. It’s the “Jewish” part that bothers you more than the Zionist. I obviously don’t condone your bigotry, but at least you are being honest. If only more BDS supporters were as transparent. ||

        It’s funny how you Zionists spend so much time conflating Zionism and the “Jewish State” construct with all Jews (or “the Jews”, as you tend to anti-Semitically refer to them) and “the Jews” with Zionism and the “Jewish State” construct only to whine, bitch and moan when people are “bothered by” the on-going acts of injustice and immorality being committed deliberately and with impunity by “the Jews”.

        It’s a shame that you Zionists aren’t more transparent. But I suppose that would make it more difficult to be hateful and immoral hypocrites.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        August 31, 2018, 9:33 pm

        Amigo,
        Once again the proposal from Mag was not BDS based upon Zionist support or even Israeli nationality, but rather based upon Jewishness. Much like when Trump speaks of ‘border security’ he means keeping brown people out of America or the use of Willie Horton as a racial dog whistle, people like Mag use BDS as a cover for their bigotry against Jews. I’m sure that there are some well meaning folks who support BDS and there are some well meaning folks who think voter ID laws are necessary, but many bigots hide within each. Some just manage to disguise it well.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        September 1, 2018, 1:14 am

        Eljay,
        I don’t get your point.
        Are you OK with Mag calling for the boycott of Jewish businesses or not?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        September 1, 2018, 3:27 am

        “Once again the proposal from Mag was not BDS based upon Zionist support or even Israeli nationality, but rather based upon Jewishness.”

        DaBakr assures us that 90%+ of Jews are Zionists, so basing a boycott on Jewishness would make the few non-Zionist Jews declare themselves. And they would then be boycotted by the rest of the Jews.

        “I’m sure that there are some well meaning folks who support BDS and there are some well meaning folks who think voter ID laws are necessary, but many bigots hide within each. ”

        So what?

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        September 1, 2018, 3:42 am

        If you think fit to operate a boycott you should not flinch just because those concerned are of a certain ethnicity, Jewish or other. However, it is morally wrong, legal or not, to operate a boycott based on ethnicity, absolutely wrong. I don’t think that this distinction is too difficult to make either in theory or in practice. We’re here on Mondoweiss to support an anti-racist cause. On the side of prudence and carefulness, less important than right and wrong but still important, we should recall that if we want to discredit ourselves with three words to the point where we are scorned, relegated and forgotten then ‘boycott Jewish businesses’ are the three words most guaranteed to have that effect.

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 1, 2018, 8:32 am

        || Jon66: Eljay,
        I don’t get your point. … ||

        Of course you do. But I understand that it’s easier for you to pretend that you don’t.

        || … Are you OK with Mag calling for the boycott of Jewish businesses or not? ||

        I’m not. IMO, the businesses of Zionists should be boycotted. Do you agree or not?

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        September 1, 2018, 2:49 pm

        Hughes,
        Too late.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        September 1, 2018, 2:55 pm

        Eljay,
        “I’m not. IMO, the businesses of Zionists should be boycotted. Do you agree or not?”
        I don’t agree. But I don’t think it should prevent other people from boycotting people who support causes they disagree with. There are some folks who won’t buy from some companies who support anti-abortion candidates. Some folks even put together lists of people who support causes they oppose. It can be quite scary.
        https://forward.com/news/407279/canary-missions-threat-grows-from-us-campuses-to-the-israeli-border/

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        September 1, 2018, 5:12 pm

        “Scary” for you, Johnny!
        And you should be scared, of course. Normal people don’t give a rat’s bottom for your scare. The Constitution is clear. And politics ain’t inborn.

        As for your canary, two can play that game.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 1, 2018, 6:29 pm

        “Some folks even put together lists of people who support causes they oppose. It can be quite scary.” “Jon 66”

        And thank God Canary Mission is there to keep track of those awful people who make lists of people?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 1, 2018, 6:59 pm

        ,“Annie…/… but how do you feel about Mag’s bigotry based upon religion?”

        A perfect example of why nobody bothers to distinguish between “s” and “66”. You both use the same slimy tricks. And you both have a wild fantasy about the utility of anti-semitism accusations.

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 2, 2018, 8:59 am

        || Jon66: Eljay,
        “I’m not. IMO, the businesses of Zionists should be boycotted. Do you agree or not?”
        I don’t agree. ||

        I’m not surprised.

  8. Boris
    Boris
    August 30, 2018, 4:50 pm

    Breaking news – there is no Palestine either.

    Hadrian is spinning in his grave

    • Maghlawatan
      Maghlawatan
      August 31, 2018, 1:55 am

      Palestine is there under the concrete

    • Talkback
      Talkback
      August 31, 2018, 6:10 am

      Boris: “Breaking news – there is no Palestine either.”

      This may be “breaking news” in the Kahane continuum.

      But in this universe Palestine has been the name of the state which was under mandate until 1948 and which was redeclared in 1988 within 1967 lines. It has gained UN non-member state status in 2012 and is recognized by 137 states which is only 24 less than your beloved Apartheid entity.

      • fishbiol
        fishbiol
        August 31, 2018, 9:51 am

        Priceless.
        If there is no Palestine, then no Palestine Liberation Organization and no Palestinian Authority. If so, then who did Israel sign agreements with.
        Israel can’t have it both ways.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        August 31, 2018, 10:50 am

        @TalkBack

        Indeed, Palestine is recognized by the vast majority of countries which represent the vast majority of the population of the planet.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        August 31, 2018, 6:19 pm

        There has been a Palestine since abiut 1150 BCE. The name has been in frequent and continual use.

      • mondonut
        mondonut
        August 31, 2018, 10:10 pm

        @Talkback … Palestine has been the name of the state

        I suppose all of you “Palestine exists” advocates are going to further claim that the State of Palestine exists within at least the West Bank and Gaza. So let’s play along with that fantasy – explain how all the Palestinians living within Palestine are not at most internally displaced, and not refugees.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        September 1, 2018, 4:00 pm

        mondonut: “I suppose all of you “Palestine exists” advocates are going to further claim ”

        Nobody is advocating or claiming anything outside your Kahane continuum. In this universe the State of Palestine which was declared in 1988 achieved UN non-member STATE status in 2012.
        http://www.un.org/en/sections/member-states/non-member-states/index.html

        mondonut: “… that the State of Palestine exists within at least the West Bank and Gaza.”

        No, Palestine achieved UN non-member state status within the 1967 lines, including East Jerusalem.

        mondonut: “So let’s play along with that fantasy – …”

        It’s only a fantasy in the Kahane continuum.

        mondonut: “… explain how all the Palestinians living within Palestine are not at most internally displaced, and not refugees.”

        Because they were expelled outside of the territory in which your beloved Apartheid Junta declared statehood.

        Do you need me to explain to you how to add single digit numbers, too?

  9. MHughes976
    MHughes976
    August 30, 2018, 6:12 pm

    The Trump plan begins to look like an attempt to raise Saudi funds for another dreadful population ‘transfer’. But maybe Trump is losing heart and thinking of other things.

  10. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    August 31, 2018, 4:12 am

    This is the problem with the concept of “Jewish self determination “ . Luciana Berger is a UK Labour MP and brings up JSD when Corbyn is in the mix. It is part of her identity. What could be more wholesome than JSD? Maybe gefilte fish?

    On the ground in Gaza JSD is well on the way to genocide.
    Zionists can’t have it both ways.

  11. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    August 31, 2018, 11:02 am

    Zionism can’t buy the decision on who is a refugee. Israel refuses to recognize the hole it has dug for itself

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/31/trump-to-cut-all-us-funding-for-uns-main-palestinian-refugee-programme

    “The Trump administration is planning to cut all remaining US funding for the main UN programme for Palestinian refugees, with potentially devastating impacts, and is lobbying other countries to follow suit.

    Speculation about the future of US funding for the agency, which provides services to more than five million Palestinians in the occupied territories as well as Jordan, Syria and Lebanon, comes as European and Arab countries pledged to protect the agency and Germany promised a significant increase in financial backing.

    According to a report in the Washington Post, the Trump administration will use the announcement of its cessation of UNRWA funding to push for a huge reduction in the number of Palestinians officially registered as refugees.”

    The reported aim was to reduce those designated as refugees from five million to around 500,000, representing only those who were physically displaced from their homes when the agency was created seven decades ago, thus excluding millions of their descendants.

    The move has been widely interpreted in both Israel and Palestine as a blunt move by the US to unilaterally sweep aside one of the main sticking points in peace negotiations – the right of return of Palestinians.
    Asked on Tuesday if the US should “get the right of return off the table”, the US ambassador to the UN, Nikki Haley, said she thought it should.
    “I do agree with that … I absolutely think we have to look at right of return.”

  12. Bataween
    Bataween
    August 31, 2018, 12:36 pm

    The US is absolutely correct. There is no justification for Palestinian ‘refugees’ to ‘return’ to a country they have never seen . Israel absorbed 700,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries so why can’t the host Arab countries absorb theirs? Stop exploiting people for political purposes: it is cruel and inhumane.

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      August 31, 2018, 5:19 pm

      Let me get this right: you want Palestinians, ejected by military force, to be barred from their own country “they’ve never seen” to make place for millions of barbarians who voluntarily left their countries for a Palestine they’d never seen.
      Some Zionist logic. Below vomitive.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      August 31, 2018, 10:06 pm

      If Israel could absorb so many Jewish refugees, why couldn’t it absorb the Palestinian refugees who actually belonged there?

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 1, 2018, 8:18 am

        || RoHa: If Israel could absorb so many Jewish refugees, why couldn’t it absorb the Palestinian refugees who actually belonged there? ||

        And dilute the purity of the religion-supremacist “Jewish State” with a “demographic threat” of non-Jews? Zionists aren’t stupid!*
        __________________
        (*Comment does not apply to all Zionists.)

    • Talkback
      Talkback
      September 1, 2018, 6:10 am

      Bataween: “There is no justification for Palestinian ‘refugees’ to ‘return’ to a country they have never seen. … Stop exploiting people for political purposes: it is cruel and inhumane.”

      First of all. Thank you for deligitimizing the Zionist project. If Palestinians who are direct descendants of those who were expelled since 1948 have no right to return than Jews NEVER had the right to “return”. An imagined right which is based on the imagined and never proven myth of an “exile”.

      Now contrary to you and anybody else who is cruel and inhumane refugees have a right to return and a right to citizenship. Including their descendants based on the principle of family unification. It is the normal case and first choice to repatriate them. And it’s not their fault that the racist expellant needs to eternalize their situation for “demographic” reasons which amounts to the crime of Apartheid.

    • zaid
      zaid
      September 1, 2018, 9:34 am

      I am a Palestinian refugee and i reject any compromise on my right to return to my ancestral homeland.

      The Jewish “Refugees” should be allowed to leave Palestine and return to their Arab homelands.I actually encourage it.

      • catalan
        catalan
        September 1, 2018, 10:58 am

        “I am a Palestinian refugee and i reject any compromise on my right to return to my ancestral homeland.”
        Zaid,
        Then get ready to be very patient. I (a Sephardic Jew) got the right to unconditionally return to Spain after more than 500 years (about 10 years ago). Had it happened a little bit earlier I would have gone to live in Spain. As it happened, I ended up in New Mexico. But the point is, it took 500 years for the Spanish to accept the return. There is not enough room in Palestine. I think that all of us, Jews and Palestinians who don’t live there are better off simply making our home elsewhere.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 1, 2018, 12:53 pm

        “The Jewish “Refugees” should be allowed to leave Palestine and return to their Arab homelands.I actually encourage it.”

        That’s something I wonder about a lot. As conditions in “Israel” change, will Jews be compelled to stay in Israel to manufacture the appearance of a Jewish State?

      • zaid
        zaid
        September 1, 2018, 4:10 pm

        Catalan, if gaza (360km2) can house 2 million then Palestine (27000km2)can house 100 million

        And if it cannot then the colonizers should return to their homelands in Europe and the ME and leave Palestine to its rightful owners the Palestinians

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        September 1, 2018, 4:41 pm

        catalan: ” There is not enough room in Palestine. I think that all of us, Jews and Palestinians who don’t live there are better off simply making our home elsewhere.”

        Of course. The usual Zionist post crime fake morality. Only after the Jewish immigration was enforced upon Palestinians and their majority expelled everything should just remain as it is, right?

        That’s like a Nazi claiming in 1944 that every Jew and Nonjew in Poland should stay were they are at the moment, because there is not enough room.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        September 1, 2018, 4:48 pm

        zaid: “The Jewish “Refugees” should be allowed to leave Palestine and return to their Arab homelands.I actually encourage it.”

        I bet that you won’t find a single Zionist antisemite who supports this paritcular human right for Jews.

      • catalan
        catalan
        September 1, 2018, 5:12 pm

        “The usual Zionist post crime fake morality.” Talkback
        I don’t know what crimes you are accusing me of. Are you endorsing some concept of “collective crime”? I am a Bulgarian Jew living in the United States and practicing accounting. I have never been part of a military. I have shot a few times an air gun at festivals. What “crime” exactly is that I am involved in? In short, not having the same opinion as you is not a crime. Perhaps this boils down to a different view on freedom of speech between Europe and the States. Here, stating your thoughts is not a “crime”.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 1, 2018, 6:38 pm

        ” I am a Bulgarian Jew living in the United States and practicing accounting.”

        Okay! All-right, already. You should be able to find all the information you need here

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        September 1, 2018, 6:49 pm

        @catalan

        Collective crime?

        No collective punishment is a zionist evil. You know… the folks you support. Firing an air gun is probably much more than the vast majority of Palestinians have done.

        Surely you will willingly accept collective punishment since you support giving same?

    • Emet
      Emet
      September 2, 2018, 1:12 am

      Many of the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians came from other places in region. Many still have families in those places. Let them move back there.

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        September 2, 2018, 9:45 am

        This is bollocks. The aliens are the Zionists with their German R who don’t know how to pronounce Hebrew.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        September 2, 2018, 7:42 pm

        Good idea. And, of course, the people whose ancestors came from Poland, Ukraine, Russia, and other places outside the region should also move to those countries.

        Then the remaining people could live in a secular, democratic, unified Palestine.

  13. PeaceMafia
    PeaceMafia
    August 31, 2018, 2:03 pm

    Very sad and troublesome for both sides. It’s almost as if it’s an act of war. Many binding international laws and security council resolutions besides humanitarian laws are purposely being broken to victimized, terrorize and annihilate an entire race and country (yes, Palestine is a country).
    Moreover, the US and Israel will not only be isolating themselves from the international community, but also emboldening violence in the form of terrorism from lone wolfs as well as organized terrorist organizations. Terrorism as defined by US and Israel and defined as defending ones (and others) property and lives by others. Let’s not fool ourselves. Just because Johnny has a bigger slingshot than Steve doesn’t mean Johnny is not a terrorist and the little slingshot owner *is* a terrorist. The little slingshot can be defined as defending themselves no matter what they’re up against. Terrorism is terrorism when innocent lives are purposely taken.
    Getting back on point, my whole point here is that when one or more countries break international laws as well as many other laws in order to make the targeted country bow down to unfair one sided agreements as well as to erase a population is, in my opinion, an act of war. It is my personal desire that there is a fair and balanced agreement on both sides to bring peace. Unfortunately, this whole mess is based on greed and power but in the end, good will win. It always does.

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      September 1, 2018, 4:19 am

      “Act of war”? The Zionist entity has started all-out war against all its neighbors and against the Palestinian people as a whole in November 1947. The fact that some of those countries and self-designated (or rather US-appointed) Palestinian Quislings have signed separate peace, did not stop the war; on the contrary, it has allowed the Zionist entity to concentrate all its means of aggression against the Palestinians.

  14. bcg
    bcg
    September 1, 2018, 11:39 am

    This article on the Palestinian refugees seems to have morphed into a discussion on Israel’s future. To that end, I’d like to post a Haaretz article from 2013 about Yuval Diskin (
    former Israel Security chief) – surely no one can accuse Diskin of being a secret anti-Semite, I hope:

    https://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Diskin-Israel-nears-point-of-no-return-319701

    I will summarize my argument: In terms of the future, the identity, the nature and security of the State of Israel and the Jewish nation, it will be impossible to know when we have passed the point from which we will never be able to return home and retain our identity as a democratic, Jewish state…

  15. Emet
    Emet
    September 2, 2018, 1:04 am

    Gazan’s need to throw out Hamas and give up all their arms. After this work permits can be given to them on mass and the foreign workers now in Israel can go home. If the Palestinians want a state they should go to Jordan. Alternatively Egypt can allocate large tracks of land in the Raffah region and seed this to the Palestinians for some type of autonomous entity, to which everyone and their dog can move to.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      September 2, 2018, 7:48 pm

      “If the Palestinians want a state ….”

      What the Palestinians really want is to be free and equal full citizens in a state covering the territory of geographical Palestine.

      This could be achieved quite easily if the Israeli Jews were not so evil.

      • Nathan
        Nathan
        September 2, 2018, 10:33 pm

        RoHa – It’s a very sweeping statement (that the Israeli Jews are evil). Have you interviewed all the Israeli Jews to determined the correctness of your claim? What about the children? Are they evil Israeli Jews as well? Ordinarily, I might be suspicious that accusing a whole population of a particular common bad trait is an expression of racial hatred, but I understand that in the anti-Israel world the rules of common courtesy and dignified debate have to be set aside in order to maintain the parameters of this very unique obsessiveness. I would suggest that you publish a little “oops, sorry, I got carried away” statement.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        September 3, 2018, 8:53 am

        Nathan: “Israel also has the right to grant citizenship to immigrants in accordance to whatever criteria she wishes. ”

        Did the Nazis have the right to expell Jews to achieve and maintain a certain national character?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        September 4, 2018, 5:52 am

        I am quite prepared to believe that most Israeli children are no more evil than children in other countries, and even that quite a few Israeli adults are, at worst, no more than evilish.

        But the overall impression that I get is that the majority of Israeli adults approve of the injustice and cruelties that their various governments have meted out, and continue to mete out, and so calling them evil is not an expression of racial hatred, but simply a generalised statement of fact.

  16. Boomer
    Boomer
    September 2, 2018, 10:40 am

    It certainly makes one proud to be an American. That’s been true of our Palestine policy for as long as I can remember, but Trump has taken it to a new and greater level. That’s why most Americans voted for him.

    As for the fence, if the people in Gaza have the effrontery to walk within rifle shot of the fence that imprisons them, they deserve to be shot. They need to stay out of sight of the decent people of Israel.

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