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The perverse use of anti-Semitism charges against supporters of Palestinian rights

Middle East
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As many of you know, I am a refugee from Nazi Germany and a Jew. I was also on a small catamaran with 4 elderly Jews in September 2010 with a goal to break the siege of Gaza. We were Jews who wanted to convey our hopes, our dreams for Palestinian freedom and dignity. They looked forward to our arrival and yes, we yearned to feel a connection and love.

I had felt this love and tragedy when I did finally get to Gaza in 2012. No one can imagine the horror of the 2008-9 Operation Cast Lead and 2012 Operation Pillar of Defense. More came soon after. Bombing and horrible destruction continues now. Unimaginable horror plus the use of phosphates and deadly chemicals dropped down on defenseless ones and too many children and pregnant women.

So many in this country (as well as Germany) have tragically identified with the psychotic rantings of a country that is now aligned with evil forces to create a most horrifying group of war mongers. It is the United States, Israel and Saudi Arabia, all known as countries of mass destruction.

Our small boat never made it. Instead we were brutally captured in international waters and ultimately imprisoned by our Israeli captives, treated like terrorists. I felt at times as if I were escaping the Nazis, it was so surreal I escaped to another time. This time instead, I was still a Jewish refugee from Germany and it did not matter to our intruders. I felt these people, the Israelis were living an odd kind of psychosis, as I was interrogated for several hours. Nothing mattered to them except an allegiance to a broken down system that imprisoned its Palestinian brothers, sisters and children. Nothing mattered for them except to understand Palestinians as vicious terrorists to be destroyed in order for the Jewish State to control all of Israel. Their psychosis manifests as a chronic belief system, a ludicrous invention the state uses and distorts. These are lies and manipulations that echoes another insanity, the 1930’s of Germany.

Lillian Rosengarten

Some of my family got out of Germany before they were murdered. Some of them died. My parents’ relatives were scattered and what is left is a tiny family consisting of refugees in South America whom I do not know. We are alone, my son, daughter and two grandchildren. My first born son died of a drug overdose. My parents could never forget their privileged life in Germany and died tragically through suicide and grief.

And so it was, after many visits to Israel, watching the growth of settlers taking the place of Palestine, colonial settlers who grew on the land, stolen land– settlers, racists and taught to hate. These settlers helped create a “Jewish Nation” that ostensibly welcomed all Jews of the world as a homeland while continuing as a country without a soul, without a heart, a country that supports apartheid, racism and weapons both physical and emotional to use on anyone who resists. It is a country that uses anti-Semitism as a perverse decree on those who dare to support Palestine Justice.

We who support Palestinian rights must condemn Zionism and vile, endless apartheid denied to the rest of the world. It is bizarre, ludicrous– that to condemn the response to the brutality inflicted by the Zionists is called anti-Semitic. Of course there is a large degree of anti-Semitism that has grown towards Jews because of the hatred being created.

In this atmosphere of hate and mistrust, it remains critically important to remember the use of the non violent BDS campaign, created to protect the Natural Rights of Palestinians. BDS, Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions, is grossly delegitimized by the very country that has for over 70 years tragically succeeded in large part to systematically destroy Palestinian life. The use of the Holocaust to defend this action is both dishonest and destructive.

Who shall raise their voices for Palestinians, for freedom from intolerable suffering, for their land? We have a government that supports a rogue country creating its own nightmare. Evil loves the darkness and hates the light of truth. Is the support for human rights anti-Semitic? It is a scandal, a humiliation that must be ended. It is fear and hysteria that has eluded rational discourse and has created unnerving hatred.

We who see Zionism as a destroyer of souls, a place where poetry and true love have been stamped out by an arrogant pretense at democracy, a place of hell with bombs and spies that exist for the lies to continue, this painful place of injustice and death — we will never stop our support and hope for a free Palestine. Hate and revenge must be strangers for all of us who struggle for Palestinian freedom. There can not be a Jewish State born out of apartheid and destruction. Israel and Palestine must live together in freedom.

Lillian Rosengarten
About Lillian Rosengarten

Lillian Rosengarten is author of the book “Survival and Conscience: From The Shadow Of Nazi Germany To The Jewish Boat To Gaza."(October 2015, Just World Books) It has been published in German. (Zambon 7/14). She can be contacted through her website, lillianrosengarten.com

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60 Responses

  1. Boomer
    Boomer
    November 19, 2018, 2:57 pm

    Thank you for this eloquent statement. There are understandable reasons for the tragedy that has befallen Palestine, but tragedy it is. And not just for Palestinians, but, as you note, for Jews as well. And for Americans who are complicit. Surely a better way, a more humane solution, is possible.

    Among the collateral damage, as you observe, is the way that concern about “anti-semitism” has been abused. Throughout most of my lifetime it has been a serious charge. Now, it’s often just more “fake news.” Consider the cynical way that Facebook’s leaders defended Facebook by simultaneously smearing Soros and calling its critics antisemitic.

    “While Mr. Zuckerberg has conducted a public apology tour in the last year, Ms. Sandberg has overseen an aggressive lobbying campaign to combat Facebook’s critics, shift public anger toward rival companies and ward off damaging regulation. Facebook employed a Republican opposition-research firm to discredit activist protesters, in part by linking them to the liberal financier George Soros. It also tapped its business relationships, lobbying a Jewish civil rights group to cast some criticism of the company as anti-Semitic.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/14/technology/facebook-data-russia-election-racism.html

  2. eljay
    eljay
    November 19, 2018, 3:09 pm

    I continue to have nothing but tremendous respect for you, Ms. Rosengarten.

  3. Lillian Rosengarten
    Lillian Rosengarten
    November 19, 2018, 6:44 pm

    Thank you.

    • annie
      annie
      November 19, 2018, 7:13 pm

      always good to hear your voice Lillian.

      • JLewisDickerson
        JLewisDickerson
        November 19, 2018, 7:44 pm

        The more, the better!

      • bintbiba
        bintbiba
        November 21, 2018, 6:32 pm

        And a very emotional me , Ms. Rosengarten . A Palestinian born in Jerusalem 83 years ago and so grateful for your graceful eloquence and humanity.

        If ever you visit London, I would be so honoured to meet you and express my love and gratitude !

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        November 21, 2018, 9:44 pm

        Yes, she is inspiring!

  4. gamal
    gamal
    November 19, 2018, 7:19 pm

    “It is fear and hysteria that has eluded rational discourse and has created unnerving hatred”

    Dear Ms. Rosengarten I see Garry Wills has been doing his Christian duty reading the Quran, also Lesley Hazleton and Natana J de Longbas (?) have been doing very good work, I link to wills here he is very calming.

    all the best

    g

    https://youtu.be/h6NWfVWxqSM

  5. amigo
    amigo
    November 19, 2018, 7:31 pm

    Greetings from Ireland Lillian and unfettered respect for your selfless commitment to Palestinian rights.

  6. pabelmont
    pabelmont
    November 19, 2018, 7:53 pm

    Thank you, Lillian, especially for zeroing-in on PSYCHOSIS or STATE-PSYCHOSIS which seem to me to deftly identify a commonality between (temporary 1930-1945) Nazi-Germany and (permanent? 1940-2018) Zionist-Israel. If the current Zionist psychosis has not marked Zionism since before 1948, it has surely done so for many years until today.

  7. DaBakr
    DaBakr
    November 20, 2018, 12:39 am

    So basically you are saying that you think the typical Israeli attitude about their nation is somewhat psychotic and gives you traumatic thoughts about being a refugee from nazi. Yet the Israelis think the same of you. there are thousands of nazi war refugees in israel and they feel very differently then you do. Many are equally as brilliant as you in their own way. Scholars, professors, doctors and military men and women.
    . if you want to be so self assured as to consider your own point of view superior in its mental acuity and in its virtue to that of others who experienced the same or worse then you did…. You will have to do better then accusing them of psychosis unless you are willing to consider the same of yourself.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso
      November 20, 2018, 10:39 am

      @DaBakr

      Yes, ” there are thousands of nazi war refugees in israel…” But how they wound up there is the real story:

      “In 1938, a thirty-one nation conference was held in Evian, France, on resettlement of the victims of Nazism. The World Zionist Organization refused to participate, fearing that resettlement of Jews in other states would reduce the number available for Palestine.” (John Quigley, Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice, as quoted in “The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict,” second edition, published by Jews for Justice in the Middle East, Berkeley, California, p. 21.)

      The Jewish Agency in Palestine was very concerned about the implications of the Evian Conference. “It was summed up in the meeting [of the Jewish Agency’s Executive on June 26, 1938] that the Zionist thing to do ‘is belittle the [Evian] Conference as far as possible and to cause it to decide nothing…. We are particularly worried that it would move Jewish organizations to collect large sums of money for aid to Jewish refugees, and these collections could interfere with our collection efforts’…. Ben-Gurion’s statement at the meeting: ‘No rationalization can turn the conference from a harmful to a useful one. What can and should be done is to limit the damage as far as possible.'” (Boas Evron, Jewish State or Israeli Nation? as quoted in “The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict,” by John Quigley, second edition, p. 21.)

      On 7 December 1938, during a meeting of the Mapai Central Committee (precursor of the Labour Party), David Ben-Gurion revealed his true feelings regarding the plight of German Jews: “If I knew it was possible to save all the [Jewish] children in Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second…” He attempted to explain his twisted reasoning by adding that he would make such a choice “…because we face not only the reckoning of those children, but the historical reckoning of the Jewish people.” Ben-Gurion also expressed his fear that “‘the human conscience’ might bring various countries to open their doors to Jewish refugees from Germany. He saw this as a threat and warned: ‘Zionism is in danger!'” (Tom Segev, The Seventh Million, Hill and Wang, New York, 1994, p. 28.)

      During another speech to the Mapai Central Committee on 7 December 1938, Ben-Gurion admitted that “in these terrible days of the beginning of the disaster that threatens European Jewry, I am still more worried about the elections at the [Mapai] branch in Tel Aviv.” (Segev, p. 105.)

      On 27 November 1942, the Yishuv newspaper Davar published an article that referred to the extermination of European Jews as “‘punishment from heaven’ for not having come to Palestine.” (Tom Segev, p. 98). As Ben-Gurion so callously put it on 8 December 1942, during a Mapai meeting: “‘They did not want to listen to us’ ….in their deaths they had sabotaged the Zionist dream.’” (David Ben-Gurion at a gathering of Mapai workers, 8 Dec. 1942; quoted by Tom Segev)

      That saving Jews from the Nazis was not the priority of American Zionists was clearly shown during the war. When President Roosevelt became aware of the dire circumstances of European Jews, he sent his close friend Morris Ernst (a key member of the Democratic party and leader of the New York Jewish community) to London during the middle of the war to see if England and the Commonwealth would join the United States and other countries in taking in a half million Jewish refugees through a generous worldwide policy of political asylum once Hitler was defeated. (Roosevelt felt he could sell the plan to the American Congress if Britain agreed.)

      Ernst returned home jubilant and advised the President that Britain agreed to “match the United States up to 150,000.” Roosevelt replied:”150,000 to England – 150,000 to match that in the United States – pick up 200,000 or 300,000 elsewhere, and we can start with half a million of these oppressed people.”

      One week later, however, the President informed Ernst that the program had to be abandoned because “…the dominant vocal Jewish leadership of America won’t stand for it…the Zionist movement knows [that it] can raise vast sums for Palestine by saying to donors, `There is no other place this poor Jew can go.'”

      Ernst refused to believe Roosevelt and went about seeking the support of American Jews for the plan. Their response shocked him: “I was thrown out of parlours of friends of mine who very frankly said, `Morris, this is treason. You are undermining the Zionist movement’. [I found] a deep genuine, often fanatically emotional vested interest in putting over the [movement in men] who are little concerned about human blood if it is not their own.” (Dr. Alfred Lilienthal, The Zionist Connection, pp.35-36 and Morris Ernst, So Far So Good, Harper & Brothers: New York, 1948, pp. 172-177)

      Another obvious question is how have the Holocaust survivors fared in “Israel?”

      http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3388445,00.html

      “Shoah survivors forced back to Germany due to Israel’s lack of restitution laws”
      Ines Ehrlich Published: 04.16.07, 11:32 / Israel News

      EXCERPT:
      “Documentary shows Israel the worst place for Holocaust survivors to live throughout Western world. Hundreds protest outside Knesset, demand government help survivors with financial difficulties

      “Holocaust survivors have left Israel to live out the rest of their days in Germany due to the better conditions they receive there, according to a documentary program broadcast Tuesday night by Israel’s Channel 2 television.”

  8. Vera Gottlieb
    Vera Gottlieb
    November 20, 2018, 10:45 am

    I do not adhere to any religion. I am of Jewish background. And for as long as israel keeps mistreating all Palestinians, I shall remain an avid ANTI ZIONIST. From the Warsaw ghetto to the Gaza ghetto? Haven’t learned a damn thing…

  9. amigo
    amigo
    November 20, 2018, 2:58 pm

    For those with access to Al Jazeera English , there is a documentary on Al Jazeera World @ 8,00 pm GMT .The subject is the Late Edward Said.

    60 minutes in duration.

  10. James Canning
    James Canning
    November 20, 2018, 6:43 pm

    The bogus employment of the term “anti-Semitic”, to suppress free speech, obviously is deplorable.

  11. michtom
    michtom
    November 21, 2018, 5:12 am

    “there is a large degree of anti-Semitism that has grown towards Jews because of the hatred being created.”

    I disagree.

    Yes, Israel should be blamed for its slaughter of Palestinians. Worse it constantly calls any criticism of its apartheid regime anti-Semitic, but anti-Semites will always find a rationale to hate Jews.

    We see that in the focus on the pretend villainy of George Soros, as well as always adding the Rothschild name to any complaints about banking, etc.

    Don’t give the anti-Semites any excuse for their vile bigotry.

    Thanks.

    • Paranam Kid
      Paranam Kid
      November 21, 2018, 9:43 am

      @michtom:

      …. anti-Semites will always find a rationale to hate Jews.

      Yes, so what? Racists always find a rationale to hate “the other”, whether “the other” be Jew, Black, Muslim, whatever. So the Zioracists always find a rationale to hate the Palestinians. Thanks for confirming.

      What do you mean by the “pretend villany of Soros”: are we supposed to refrain from criticising the man for his interference in other countries’ politics or any of his egregious activities because he is a Jew, and a rich one at that? Does that criticism equate to “antisemitism”? But criticisng e.g. Putin is perfectly fine, right?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        November 21, 2018, 11:32 pm

        “Racists always find a rationale to hate “the other”, whether “the other” be Jew, Black, Muslim, whatever.”

        There seems to be an idea that there are quite a few people who are disposed to hate others (“haters gotta hate”), and seek to find a suitable object for hatred.

        I am by no means convinced that this is the case. Is there any solid evidence for it?

      • Paranam Kid
        Paranam Kid
        November 22, 2018, 2:00 pm

        @RoHa: what case are you talking about:
        * that there are quite a few people who are disposed to hate others (“haters gotta hate”), or
        * that they seek to find a suitable object for hatred
        ?

        Yes, there are quite a few people who hate others, example: the Zionists hate the Palesitinians, as do the Zioneocons.
        Haters thrive to find suitable objects for their hate, example: as above.

        There are plenty of other cases, of which you quite aware, I am sure.
        If you expect me to back that up with stats, you’re out of luck. I don’t even understand why you asked the question; you like to find discussion points?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        November 23, 2018, 12:29 am

        I know there are plenty of people who hate other people. My question came from your phrasing “find the rationale”. It suggests that the hate comes first, and a reason for it is cooked up afterwards. That, in turn, suggests that there are people who hate without reason. Their hate is a sort of pathology, similar to that of the kleptomaniac who steals things he does not want or need.

        I have two, linked, concerns with this picture.

        The first is that I see no reason for supposing such a pathology is any more common than that of kleptomania, and thus I suspect that most hate, like most theft, has a reason. A victim of persecution has a reason to hate his persecutor, and psychiatric treatment for pathological hate is not appropriate. So I ask whether there is any evidence that such a pathology is widespread.

        The second is a more general concern. We are denying the rationality of those we disagree with if we attribute their positions to some sort of pathology. (Or some other motivation irrelevant to the truth of the claims.) We can then reject their claims without testing them, and avoid debating them. (This is, of course, a form of argumentum ad hominem.)

        We see this tactic every time a Zionist commenter accuses us of anti-Semitism.

        But our opponents can equally well deny our rationality in the same way. To settle disagreements, then, we fall back on screaming and fighting. Argumentum ad hominem leads to argumentum ad baculum.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        November 23, 2018, 3:16 pm

        “A victim of persecution has a reason to hate his persecutor” “RoHa”

        Oh, please, “RoHa” Unfortunately, you ended up arguing for the right of the persecutor to hate his victim.!!

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        November 23, 2018, 11:04 pm

        How do you make that out, Mooser? I can’t see that I argued for anyone to have a right to hate anyone.

        The persecutor may well have a reason to hate the victim. He may, for example, believe that the victim is corrupting the English language, or watering the beer in the local pub. But having a reason does not give a right.

      • Paranam Kid
        Paranam Kid
        November 23, 2018, 11:38 pm

        @RoHa: I replied yesterday, it did not get through, so here’s another try.

        I did not claim that the hate “pathology” is more common or widespread than kleptomania or any such other pathology.

        Concerning your 2nd claim, yes, I refuse to see or even understand the “rationality” of the Zionists’ treatment of the Palestinians, nor of their flouting of international law. There is no justification for such treatment nor such behaviour.

        In the 70 years that this has been going on the world has shown plenty of sympathy with the Zionists’ fears and cooperated in all sorts of ways to make their statelet successful. In return, the Zionists have given nothing, have moved over to the extreme right of the political spectrum, and engaged in a genocide of the Palestinians.

        There is only 1 language the Zionists understand: violence, whether physical, verbal, or both, that’s all they understand. Their territorial entity is founded on violence, and is trying to fight its illegitimacy with violence. Their response to nice, understanding words from the international community has been ever more violence against the Palestinians.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        November 24, 2018, 11:33 pm

        Paranam Kid, there seems to be a bit of tension between the first and second parts of your reply.

        In the first part, you seem to be agreeing with me that most hate is not based on pathology but on reasons.

        In the second part, regarding Zionists, you seem to reject the idea that they have reasons, which hints at a reversion to the hate-as-pathology idea.

        Of course they do have reasons, and sometimes air them on MW. (Most of those reasons boil down to “We matter and you don’t”, as Saleema so neatly summarized it)

        And they act in ways that are clearly intended to achieve their goals.
        This adds up to rationality in a “thin” sense of the word. (I would say that a fuller, “thicker” concept of rationality has to include moral considerations.)

        As far as I can tell, denying this gets us nowhere, and accepting it does not in any way count as a moral justification for Zionism. Nor does it require us to offer ” nice, understanding words”.

      • Paranam Kid
        Paranam Kid
        November 25, 2018, 6:56 am

        @RoHa: somebody whose friend, father, mother, … was killed has a reasoned, rational hate against the killer. It will not get him anywhere as such, but it is not a pathological form of hate, which is by definition irrational. The person’s rational hate is understandable. A pathological hate is not understandable beyond it being a pathology – a normal human being does not understand why that person hates.

        Thus, there are Palestinians who hate the Israelis for what the latter have done to them and are still doing to them today – no description is needed here. That hate, though not present in all Palestinians, is a ratinal hate, and fully understandable.

        The Palestinians a priori did not do any harm to the Zionists, even welcomed them and showed them things when the latter set up shop in Palestine. So, the Zionists have no reasons to hate the Palestinians, it is hate for the sake of hate, i.e. a pathological hate. And, as I pointed out in the previous paragraph, a pathological hate is not understandable beyond it being a pathology. That does not, however, mean that their objectives based on that pathology are necessarily irrational.

        You state

        …. denying this gets us nowhere ….

        i.e. that denying the irrationality of their rational goals will get us nowhere. But that is not the point. The point is that to deny their hatred, which is the root cause of their policies, should not be recognised as being anything else than a pathology, a sickness that has only brought death and destruction to an entire ethnic group. And it should be made clear at every opportunity that it is a pathology and nothing else, that there is no rationality for their hatred of the Palestinians.

        You state

        Nor does it require us to offer ” nice, understanding words”.

        But we have already shown understanding and been nice to them. Has that got the Palestinians anywhere? Continued “understanding” only emboldens the Zionists and their supporters around the world, as reality has shown.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        November 25, 2018, 8:11 pm

        “So, the Zionists have no reasons to hate the Palestinians, it is hate for the sake of hate, i.e. a pathological hate.”

        If the Zionists have no reason to hate the Palestinians, why do they hate them, rather than,say, the Pitjantjatjara or the Arapesh?

        But the Zionists do have reasons to hate the Palestinians:
        The Palestinians get in the way.
        They claim rights over the land.
        They criticize the Zionists.
        Sometimes they even defend themselves against the Zionists.

        From a Zionist point of view, all these are unforgiveable crimes.

        Zionist hate for Palestinians is quite understandable. The Zionists want all Palestine (and chunks of Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt) without any Palestinians. The “understanding words” that you refer to are all based on a real or feigned failure to understand that.

      • Paranam Kid
        Paranam Kid
        November 26, 2018, 9:01 am

        @RoHa: those reasons are invented reasons, they are brought up to justify their hate, because those criteria are not real, and the Zios know it.

        As long as we accept those criteria and allow the Zionists to use them to obstruct a solution, which is exactly what has been the situation for the past 70 years, then there will never be a solution.

        The world did not accept the Afrikaners’ similar “reasons” as to why the Blacks in South Africa should be kept apart and living in inferior conditions, which was driven by a pathological hate for the Blacks. As long as the world showed “understanding”, the Afrikaners got away with it. When the world stopped showing understanding the system was dismantled. The same applies to Nazi Germany.

        And the same should apply to Israel, since that country is no different from the 2 mentioned. I do not understand how you can defend the world having to show “understanding” for the pathological hate of a genocidal apartheid state. You claim there will not be a solutio without such understanding, but history shows the contrary.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        November 26, 2018, 10:30 pm

        My position.

        1. Zionists are committed to taking all Palestine and making it a “Jews-only” state.
        2. Palestinians are an obstacle to this aim.
        3. For this reason, Zionists hate Palestinians.

        Your position.

        1. Zionists are committed to taking all Palestine and making it a “Jews-only” state.
        2. Zionists also are afflicted with a pathology that inclines them to hate someone or something.
        3. (No reason has been given for believing that such a pathology exists.)
        4. (No reason has been given for the high incidence of this pathology in Zionists.)
        5. Zionists choose Palestinians as the object of their hatred.
        6. (No explanation for this choice, nor for the unanimity. If the choice is random, one would expect some Zionists to hate Navajos, others to hate pedants, others to hate stamp collectors.)
        7. Because of this pathology, Zionists hate Palestinians.

        Your position portrays the Zionists as insane.

        My version portrays the Zionists as evil. I am not willing to let them off the hook on the grounds of insanity.

        You seem to think that “understanding” necessarily implies tea and sympathy.

        But understanding the Zionists means understanding that they are evil. No tea and sympathy for them.

        (I don’t know whether understanding this is necessary for a solution, but I do recall the period when South Africa came under the greatest pressure to change the system. I was living in Britain, Sweden, and Denmark for most of that time, and I don’t recall anyone thinking that the white South Africans were in any way insane. We did think they were evil. Portraying them as evil helped to turn the public against them.)

      • Paranam Kid
        Paranam Kid
        November 28, 2018, 11:20 am

        @RoHa: I have not stated anywhere that I consider the Zionists insane, that is your paraphrasing incorrectly. The fact that those people have a pathological hatred for the Palestinians does not imply that they were insane. Hitler was not insane, he knew what was doing.

        Understanding that there is that pathological hate, and what the phony reasons are for it is important, but that understanding should NOT extend to being lenient with the Zionists and letting them get away with it – letting them off the hook.

        Understanding should consist of telling them “we know exactly what you are up to, you have no real reasons for your pathological hatred, we do NOT accept your policies and behaviour, therefore like with South Africa we BDS you until you give in”.

        Perhaps you and I meant the same kind of understanding but were talking cross-purposes, which is my impression. Your use of the phrase “letting them off the hook” triggered that in me.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        November 28, 2018, 11:56 pm

        We certainly seemed to be talking at cross purposes with regard to understanding.
        We might be talking at cross purposes with regard to insanity.

        Your use of the term “pathological” and your description of the condition certainly seems to be that of a form of mental illness. It might not count as full-blown insanity, but, as with kleptomania, it does sound like the sort of thing that could lead to pleas of diminished responsibility.

        (Incidentally, I have no recollection that there was any widespread perception of the White South Africans as suffering from a similar pathology, let alone evidence that they did suffer from such a thing.)

        Your explanation leaves a number of unanswered questions:

        1. Is there a psychological pathology that drives a person to hate without reason?
        2. Why do so many Zionists have this condition?
        3. Why do they all direct it against Palestinians?

        You need more explanations to explain your explanation.

        My explanation of Zionist hate for Palestinians is conceptually simpler, and does not invoke unknown elements. The hate derives directly from the Zionism.

        It also allows no plea of diminished responsibility. As far as I am concerned, Zionists are moral failures because of their commitment to an evil ideology.

      • Paranam Kid
        Paranam Kid
        November 29, 2018, 4:36 am

        @RoHa: I would be the last person to claim the Zionists have a diminished responsibility for their actions and policies. I agree that their hate derives from directly from Zionism which is a racist political ideology, allowing no one else but Jews to live in Palestine.

        I do believe, no, I am convinced, that such deep-seated hatred, which is orders of magnitude worse now than when the state was created, can only stem from brainwashing of the young for years, and preventing them in later years to question what they have been taught. This is worse among the settlers, who are aware they are illegally occupying Palestinian land.

        And they, the Zionists in Israel, and around the world too, invent their justification in everything they do to the Palestinians, having nothing else but the bible for that. But that still does not explain their pathological hatred for the Palestinians, like the Nazis’ pathological hatred for the Jews cannot be explained.

        Why do they all direct at the Palestinians? Because the Palestinians are the ones who effectively keep demonstrating the illegitimacy of the state and its policies, and it is the Palestinians who are effectively blocking their grand Med-river design on Palestine.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        November 30, 2018, 12:12 am

        “I agree that their hate derives from directly from Zionism which is a racist political ideology, allowing no one else but Jews to live in Palestine.”

        “Why do they all direct at the Palestinians? Because the Palestinians are the ones who effectively keep demonstrating the illegitimacy of the state and its policies, and it is the Palestinians who are effectively blocking their grand Med-river design on Palestine.”

        These are solid reasons for the Zionists to hate the Palestinians. No need to invoke pathologies which may not exist.

        “I do believe, no, I am convinced, that such deep-seated hatred,… can only stem from brainwashing of the young for years, and preventing them in later years to question what they have been taught.”

        Your convictions are not evidence of anything but your convictions. However, I suspect that brainwashing does play a role. But being brainwashed is not the same as suffering from a pathology. The brainwashed are given reasons to hate.

        “which is orders of magnitude worse now than when the state was created”

        I cannot tell whether this is so or not. The Zionists of 47/48 certainly were not overflowing with brotherly love towards the people they killed, raped, and expelled.

        “But that still does not explain their pathological hatred for the Palestinians,”

        You still haven’t given a reason for regarding that hatred as pathological.

      • Paranam Kid
        Paranam Kid
        November 30, 2018, 11:53 am

        @RoHa: oh yes, I did give the reasons why the hatred is pathological, you just refuse to accept them because in your view those reasons are “solid” reasons, as you state.

        Those reasons, demonstrating the illegitimacy of the state and its policies, and the Palestinians’ effectively blocking their grand Med-river design on Palestine, are based on the Zionists themselves not understanding, not wanting to understand, refusing to talk about it with the Palestinians (or anybody else for that matter). That means that the hatred that is engendered by their refusal to deal with the Palestinians is a pathological hatred. It is not as if the Palestinians have harmed them in any way, whether that be physical, psychological, or in any other way.

        Someone suffering from a psychosis has, in his own view, many “good” reasons to be psychotic, but for the outside world none of those reasons are real. He suffers from a pathology.

        Similarly, the reasons that you point out only exist in the Zionists’ psyche, they are not real reasons for hatred therefore the hatred is based on reasons that are engineered by the Zionists themselves as a figment of their imagination, are therefore pathological. Those reasons are not real reasons for hatred.

        The Zionists are psychotic about the Palestinians and see them as enemies, even Palestinian babies are described by the minister of “justice”, Ayelet Shaked, as “little snakes”. And many others in leadership positions have used similarly disgusting descriptions. If you disagree that that amounts to a pathology then there is no need to continue this conversation because we will never be on the same wavelength.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        November 30, 2018, 4:27 pm

        Did we start out this discussion by defining “hate”?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        December 1, 2018, 2:46 am

        “The reasons that you point out only exist in the Zionists’ psyche”

        This is simply not true.

        The Palestinians really do get in the way of the Zionists’ aim.
        They really do criticise the Zionists.

        From the point of view of a Zionist, they are harming the Zionists.

        Why do you not think this is sufficient reason for the Zionists to hate the Palestinians?

        If that is not the real reason, what is the real reason?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        December 1, 2018, 2:49 am

        No, we didn’t, Mooser. Perhaps we should have, but so far we seem to have agreed on the meaning of the term.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        December 1, 2018, 11:59 am

        “No, we didn’t, Mooser. Perhaps we should have but so far we seem to have agreed on the meaning of the term.”

        Well, better late than never. It would help, since you seem to be making a rather abstruse point about hate.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        December 1, 2018, 9:46 pm

        I’m happy to go with Oxford: “intense dislike”.

        My point isn’t all that abstruse.

        I am saying that I doubt that there are many people who feel hate and then look for someone to hate and reasons to justify that hatred.

        I think that in most cases, including Zionists, the reasons come first and lead to the hatred.

        I think that, if the Palestinians had quietly and uncomplainingly dropped dead, or at least moved to Yemen, the Zionists would not hate them.

        I base this position on the evidence available to me.

      • Paranam Kid
        Paranam Kid
        December 7, 2018, 1:14 pm

        @Roha: the real reason for the Zionists’ hate of the Palestinians is that the mere presence of the latter prove that there were already people living in the land that they, the Zionists, had designated for “their” country. The Zionists know they are in the wrong, as proven by the Palestinians’ presence.

        Someone who merely shows you the truth engenders an irrational hate, which in this case is a pathological hate.

        P.S. sorry for my comment being late.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        December 8, 2018, 2:50 am

        I am impressed by your telepathic powers that enable you to discern the real reason from the other possibilities.
        At least we are now agreed that the hatred does have a reason. Where we differ mostly is in the idea that “irrational” implies “pathological”. As far as I am concerned, mere failure of strict rationality does not imply pathology. If it did, I would be recommending psychiatric care for most of the human race.
        But that might not be a bad idea.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      November 21, 2018, 2:45 pm

      “but anti-Semites will always find a rationale to hate Jews.”

      Why, there’s hardly a single thing Jews, individually or in concert, haven’t been accused of at one time or another.

      • Paranam Kid
        Paranam Kid
        November 23, 2018, 9:41 am

        @Mooser: phrasing it that way you suggest all those accusations are unfounded, as if they are as pure as freshly fallen snow.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        November 23, 2018, 2:29 pm

        “they are as pure as freshly fallen snow.”

        What you mean-um “they”, kimosabe?

      • Paranam Kid
        Paranam Kid
        November 23, 2018, 11:34 pm

        @Mooser: by “they” I mean the Jews, the “accused” ones you refer to.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        November 24, 2018, 11:46 am

        “@Mooser: by “they” I mean the Jews, “

        Well, I haven’t done anything.

      • Paranam Kid
        Paranam Kid
        November 24, 2018, 2:05 pm

        @Mooser: I did not mean ALL the Jews.

  12. catalan
    catalan
    November 21, 2018, 8:28 pm

    “Why, there’s hardly a single thing Jews, individually or in concert, haven’t been accused of at one time or another.” Mooser
    So it turns out that I am 27 percent Italian, 23 percent Arab (Middle East), 42 percent European Jew and some small Turkish, Spanish, Portuguese. So all the abuse that the white Anlglos Keith and Annie have been hurling at me was actually two wasps screaming at a quarter Arab and a quarter Italian. Nothing ever changes does it…

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      November 22, 2018, 12:50 pm

      “So all the abuse that the white Anlglos Keith and Annie have been hurling at me…”

      Uh-oh, “catalan” is trying a slip-and-fall fraud in the comment aisle.

    • Paranam Kid
      Paranam Kid
      November 23, 2018, 9:44 am

      @catalan: I have not seen anything in either Annie’s or Keith’s comments that is abusive. Despite your mixed background, which would suggest a certain worldliness, you don’t seem to have any of that and cannot cope with certain facts.

  13. oldgeezer
    oldgeezer
    December 8, 2018, 11:07 am

    Articles such as this give me hope that someday the goodness in humanity will prevail.

  14. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    December 8, 2018, 1:43 pm

    @catalan
    “So it turns out that I am 27 percent Italian, 23 percent Arab (Middle East), 42 percent European Jew and some small Turkish, Spanish, Portuguese”

    Is that converted “European Jew” or did you have some sort of Semite DNA transplant ? Do tell. It gets more than a little bit confusing when you are talking about European Jews and then entirely separately Spanish and Portuguese + Italians. No wait a minute is it that you are suggesting that the Spanish,Portuguese and Italians are “ethnic” Catholics. You know like having a ” right of return ” to their ancient homeland in and around Bethlehem.

    BTW I am not anti – Catholite.

    • catalan
      catalan
      December 8, 2018, 2:22 pm

      ” Is that converted “European Jew” or did you have some sort of Semite DNA transplant ?” Ossinev
      Well without the snarking this would have been a good question. So that’s the result that I got from ancestry. I was very surprised by this large percentage of Italian too. It seems like I am related to two families of the Thessaloniki Jewish community. Both trace their origins from Italy and it seems that I might be distantly related to Modilgliani, the Italian painter. Ancestry connected me with several Greek and Bulgarian Jewish cousins. As to what “European Jew” means I honestly don’t exactly know but you can read on their website. My wife, who is of Polish Jewish background got 100 percent “European jew” versus me ar only 42. I was surprised that I have so tiny Spanish and Portuguese; I am also a quarter middle Eastern too and that is defined by them as Arab/Persian. I don’t know what to make of any of this. It is what it is-I am kind of excited to be 27 percent Italian though always felt a strange connection to Italy. From what I understand the Askenazi Jews are as a rule a lot more “European Jew” than the Sephardi. And yet we are also very similar. Do an ancestry test and you will understand better how the whole thing works; it’s hard to explain it.

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