Another blow to the 2-state solution: it empowers Netanyahu and his anything-goes chorus.
A major embarrassment to Obama. Freeman left the State Department years ago for the private sector and was convinced to take this job. The reason they wanted him is because he's smart and independent-minded, speaks his mind. Do you really think he'll go back into private life without making an issue of the manner of his expulsion? No way, Mr. President.
An important insult to the Democratic base. A further sign of the impossibility of reconciling Brian Baird, who was outraged by Gaza, and Mark Green, who had nothing to say about Gaza.
A significant demonstration of power, making it untenable for "60 Minutes" not to do its Israel Lobby piece at last and put Mearsheimer on air.
More sunlight on the Israel lobby
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play it as it lays. whatever happens react to it constructively
Does anyone really expect the Lobby to lose? This must be really nasty business if such vulnerable people are so feared.
Mitchell is still there. Obama is still there. Clinton is still there (and speaking up).
If the lobby has an incidental "victory" it doesn't mean a change in policy.
I get that the information flow is important, and my sense is that Obama will insist on having a candid and complete reporting.
Clinton didn't speak up, Witty.
Do you know what the connotations are of that phrase? 'Speaking up'?
Just as you try your hardest to evoke exotic imagery in Hamas terror to compensate for the lack of empirical evidence that suggests Hamas is the entity causing the most deaths – you use dishonest language here to evoke the imagery that ANY of these people are deviating from the usual garbage.
The fight over Chas Freeman's appointment has incredibly huge implications for the future of US policy in the Middle East and how the US relationship with Israel is discussed in this country. If Freeman stays in his NIC post, free to operate within his job description, several unmistakable signals will have been sent:
1. the Lobby is no longer all-powerful. But it's still powerful;
2. Obama is the chief foreign policy maker and enforcer, unafraid to back down, even if Rahm Emanuel is whispering in his ear;
3. Israeli leaders can no longer assume blind, deaf and dumb US support for their policies;
4. Arab leaders can start believing what Obama said in his Al Arabiya interview is true.
5. The US can be an honest "honest-broker" for peace in the Middle East, not seen since the days of James Baker.
5. the beginning of the end of the Israel Lobby's occupation of Congress.
If Chas Freeman is forced to step down because of Lobby pressure, the opposite is true. There will be retribution against those who defended Freeman.
My name is Micke Medved, I am an ivy league zionist,
I hoag the talk radio station, I am an abomination,
I always say the attack on the USS Liberty was as accident of war,
I am a traitor, a most Mister Reason sort of guy,
Just like Richard Witty,
I am a pity, a traitor by any standard,
The last reason anyone should enlist,
A
diss, a fist, against USA values,
There are the USS liberty sailors
now dead, despite the USS flag flying,
And their is Michael Medved
Mister Hollywood, an invested wood,
A definite problem in clear sight,
A man any trailer trash
would recognize in a moment
As the enemy,
Medved, Witty,
This is exactly what's wrong with the USA.
They learned it in Hebrew summer camp,
Much to the dismay of USA,
Much to our
horror,
The early concerns of the Zionists
Were on point.
Dual loyalty, actually one loyalty,
And now the infest our government.
Of course she spoke up. She contested the initiation of a new settlement this week. She urged relaxation of the border.
She is not a radical, and doesn't represent a radical administration.
Obama's is a sober, liberal one, seeking mutual reconciliation, in an environment in which Hamas declares that it is unwilling to reconcile with Fatah if ANY wording of ANY reconciliation of Israel is a component of key principles.
There is little chance that the Obama administration will divorce from its verbal and other obligations to Israel.
Hamas' language is still outside of the range of agreement. Obama cannot facilitate the relaxation of restrictions on any Hamas administration so long as Hamas speaks and acts in terms of resistance.
For you to be so blind as to not notice that Hamas is off the page of reconciliation, is sad. Its sad for Phil to express that in any way as well.
Its not really dissent, but something else. You make some legitimate points that deserve the light of day, as do some Hamas ministers, but you cast your good points in raging mud, that hides and tortures the truth.
Witty, my comments on Hamas deal almost exclusively with the Gaza massacre and the truce.
I am no expert on their ideology.
All I have ever said is that these militant nationalist groups – like the early Zionists – use grandiose rhetoric often for political purposes.
I don't doubt for a second that they may hold hateful feelings towards Jews but that is not the same antisemitism of the Nazis. It's not the olde Christian antisemitism.
This is different.
Furthermore, I have referred you to the Washington Post interview with one of Hamas's high officials from some years ago.
They expressed why they do not recognize Israel. Israel does not recognize the right of return. Israel has not defined it's borders and continues to occupy and colonize the W. bank.
Compound this with the daily human rights abuses and disproportionate and indiscriminate violence against Palestinian civilians and I can understand the anger of Hamas.
This is about power. The more powerful entity is going to behave this way in a colonist-colonized relationship.
Now, you want to focus on rhetoric. I could do the same thing, but I can back it up with Israel's actions which easily trounce Hamas and this is – once again – due to the disparity in POWER.
It's on Israel to make the first step. How do you do that though? You have to end the Zionist project. End the expansion of settlements/etc.
That's not happening. And that's why the story goes on and on.
Hamas does not act like it is a sovereign responsible for a state, and a state's people. That would require acknowledging the REALITY that it has violently harrassed both states that it borders, and that they have a rational basis of distrusting them.
Its seen. The good things that have done is seen and is a basis of some confidence, and then they dash it by shelling civilians and escalating that to cities now thirty miles from Gaza.
"It's on Israel to make the first step. How do you do that though? You have to end the Zionist project. "
It is the responsibility of EACH party to move peace forward. Clearly there are many within Israel and within Palestine that want to stop ALL effort at reconciliation. Hamas, when "led" by militants that CHOOSE to shell random civilians, is one of those groups.
Israel is looking for an indication that Hamas MEANS that it desires to co-exist (if not actually reconcile). It hasn't gotten it from their actions.
Freeman will do far more damage to the Zionist agenda if he's booted out. Just by nature of raising awareness about the Lobby. I have no doubt the Zionists will get their way again. But at what price?
Witty, you misunderstand me.
Of course both sides are responsible but not in DEGREE.
It's up to Israel to shoulder the burden as the Occupier. You are once again disingenuously using the intentional targeting of Israeli civilians to dismiss the action (Israel and Zionism) in favor of the reaction (Hamas).
You want them to stop 'shelling' civilian areas? Then lift the blockade. End the settlement expansion.
Israel as the far more powerful entity that CONTROLS the daily life of the Palestinians, contrary to your dishonest rhetoric.
What next Witty? You going to tell me that Israel disengaged and withdrew from Gaza?
Hamas doesn't act like the head of a sovereign State? There is no Palestinian State.
But of course you mean Gaza. Gaza, that was blocked by air/land/sea. Gaza that had no autonomy.
Israel is in control. The action. Hamas will revolt/rebel. The reaction.
You are putting upon the Palestinians, unrealistic standards – as if this is a symmetrical conflict in every sense.
This dishonest underscores the theme of all your comments.
Israel does not act like it is a sovereign responsible state, concerned about the welfare of its own citizens. That would require acknowledging the REALITY that it has violently harrassed all its neighbors at one time or another, and is currently brutally, illegally occupying one of them. Obviously, they have a rational basis for distrusting Israel.
It is the responsibility of EACH party to move peace forward. Clearly there are many within Israel, and some within Palestine, that want to stop ALL effort at reconciliation. Israel, which is "led" by racist ideologues that CHOOSE to brutally, illegally occupy, is, by virtue of its immense military advantage, the party that is in essence holding all the cards. When Israel stops its brutality, the resistance to its brutality will stop. Israel has shown NO WILLINGNESS to comply with this basic truism.
Democratically-elected Hamas, and the Palestinian people, are looking for an indication that Israel MEANS that it desires to co-exist (if not actually reconcile). They haven't gotten it from their actions.
Funny, I did not know that the Syrians consider the occupation of the Golan Heights to be brutal. How does Kelly know this and no one else?
Or is Kelly just a lying sack of shit?
Phil, diappointed to read your defeatist tone. Hopefully, it's not based on anything you're hearing through back channels. The last impression I had about Chas Freeman being vetted was that this was a good thing, it would silence the shrill caterwauling of the Israel-Only thought-leaders once he passes the litmus test.
Anything we should be reading into your what-if scenario?
Or is Kelly just a lying sack of shit?
Great behavior. Real conducive to productive discussion.
I am Freeman
I am not a jew
Pardon me, USA through.
Productive discussion? With antisemites, neo-nazis, islamic fascists and their supporters?
With lying sacks of shit like you?
Oh. You were being funny. Sorry, I missed the irony.
Let me know when you can stop lying and then there can be dialogue. Until then, you are merely mentally masterbating, getting off on your antisemitic fantasy.
witty writes:
Obama cannot facilitate the relaxation of restrictions on any Hamas administration so long as Hamas speaks and acts in terms of resistance.
Geneva war crimes law recognize the right of people to resist foreign occupation. But Witty thinks that the US and Israel should not allow that right to the Palestinians. It is thinking like this that keeps the war alive. I understand why Israel needs perpetual war, but there will come a day when the US will decide it does not want to continue playing that game. We will see that day when we recognize the right of the Palestinians to resist their subjugation.
Please note chris berel's endless anti-gentile obsession. Watch his future comments–all will be so based.
Productive discussion? With antisemites, neo-nazis, islamic fascists and their supporters?
With lying sacks of shit like you?
Oh. You were being funny. Sorry, I missed the irony.
Let me know when you can stop lying and then there can be dialogue. Until then, you are merely mentally masterbating, getting off on your antisemitic fantasy.
This is ridiculous. The new "rules" were posted a few days ago, and this clearly violates them:
2. No gross obscenity. Along with racism and sexism the prevalence of obscene and scatological comments on the blog has forced people away. This has to end—though yes, the occasional curse word is alright.
3. No personal attacks. We encourage spirited, passionate debate, but if you have to resort to vicious personal attack, you're not advancing the discussion. Stay on the issues.
I must have missed those rules. In fact, it seems that, unlike Israel's "red lines", pretty much everybody must have missed them. Maybe this is because they have no sanctions behind them. A good idea would be to post them in the subhead space of the blog, where they would stand a slightly higher (though still infinitesimal) chance of being noticed. What was rule 1?
Undertaking a decade of suicide bombings with nail-studded jackets, in cafe's, buses, tourist hotels, followed by five years of shelling civilians daily is not "resistance".
If Hamas wants quiet, it will have to permanently reconsider its methods.
Undertaking a decade of suicide bombings with nail-studded jackets, in cafe's, buses, tourist hotels, followed by five years of shelling civilians daily is not "resistance".
Ethnic cleansing and colonization are violations of the 'rules of war' too. The suicide bombings came after and as a response to Israeli ethnic cleansing and implantation of Jewish colonies onto Palestinian Arab land. Does anyone think Israel planted colonies in Gaza in response to Hamas' attacks? Hamas didn't exist until long after the colonies with their attendant Arab population control systems were installed, and then only with more than a little help from Israel, who wanted an alternative to the secular Fatah-dominated PLO in order to divide Palestinian political unity. Hamas has done monstrous things, and Zionists have absolutely no one but themselves to blame for its existence. Good job guys. Blowback is a bitch.
"I don't doubt for a second that they may hold hateful feelings towards Jews…"
For the most part they do not. They have welcomed the assistance of Jews, including some Israeli Jews such as Gideon Levy and Amira Hass.
Palestinians' quarrel is not with Jews, nor is Hamas'. Sure, there are some among them who cannot make a separation between Zionism and Israel and Jews. That is far less a matter of ideology than it is of a lifetime of experience. What can you expect from people whose only experience with Jews is of people who brutalize and humiliate them, who harm their loved ones, destroy their houses, and prevent them from having any kind of life?
Most who feel a general hatred of Jews will change their views when confronted with Jews who respect their humanity, and recognize their rights. They quickly come to understand that Jews are not a monolithic entity any more than Palestinians are, and that there are Jews who devote their lives to working on behalf of Palestinian rights. They figure out quite fast that it is not The Jews who are their enemies.
A couple of things.
First, I said a while ago that Obama would have to fight his own party on Israel. Schumer, and most if not all the jewish dems, and some gentile zios are fighting Obama on Freeman….in addition to
AIPAC.
Second, Obama has learned there isn't any bipartianship with the GOP. I would guess he already knew what the jewish groups would do and was expecting it so it's no surprise.
Third, Obama has moved fast on I-P, very fast. I had been watching George Mitchell for years and when Obama picked him I knew he was serious about I-P. As for Hillary, she may have been running for Queen of the Jews during the elections but she has a short fuse and a long memory for anyone who stands in the way of her reputation for acheivement and success. If she says there are going to be two states there will by God be two states and she will create hell on earth for those who try to foil or defeat her.
Now I might be right…or wrong…but I could see Obama and Hillary playing the same game with the zios and Israel that Israel has played on the US for 60 years. The old two step of ..'yes we hear you, yes we are sensitives to your concerns,just wait for the right time,tisk,tisk, it is unavoidable, so sorry and so on'….placting them with lip service and going right ahead with the Obama plan.
If that is what Obama does and how he is going to handle them I will enjoy watching every minute of Israel get served the yada yada crapola it has been ladeling out to the US for decades.
I have no idea what is going to happen re Israel but for the first time I am convinced something is going to change.
"Hamas does not act like it is a sovereign responsible for a state, and a state's people."
Oh, THIS is RICH! Hamas is NOT a sovereign, and it is not responsible for a state and a state's people. You know that damned well. Furthermore, you also know that as soon as the election ended Israel arrested tens of newly-elected Hamas officials, making it impossible for Hamas to govern effectively. Some sovereign! Some state!
Really, Richard Witty, why do you insult our intelligence in this way?
It's hard to believe that Dennis Blair chose Chas Freeman without first running this by Rahm Emanuel and Barack Obama. If they gave their seal of approval, they aren't going to back down now. When Freeman submits his financial disclosure forms the pro-Israel lobby will assert (they probably have the press release written already) that he must be removed from the intelligence post due to "shocking financial irregularities," ties to China and Saudi Arabia and "hostility" to Israel.
Obama in turn will send out Rahm Emanuel to say, "I served with Chas Freeman, I know Chas Freeman. Chas Freeman is a friend of mine." And that will be the end of the attacks on Freeman. Unfortunately, it will also be the beginning of attacks on Obama as a naive appeaser of militant Islam whose rookie economic ineptitude is taking us to the "the Obama Depression."
American, your optimistic views are ones I have entertained, but not to the point of actually expressing them. Hope you (and Phil, of course) are correct.
Berel is a troll. I don't think he's anti-Gentile. He's just a moron. His posts are meaningless.
Basically, he says the same thing over and over, comprised of the following words in variation:
Hitler
Nazi
Antisemite
Holocaust
Genocide
And he accompanies these words with the typical vulgarity one has come to expect from the ZioPuke who frequent the blog lately.
Just ignore him.
Shirin has just proven he is not intelligent enough to be insulted in the way he describes, but he certainly displays his ignorance.
Is Kelly still whining?
Actually, Shirin displays his knowledge of Israeli activities chris & Stools would rather not have onlookers see.
Shall you tell them the awful truth, Shirin, or shall I? Or shall we just let it ride?
Lindbergh was quite a guy:
The awful truth? That you and Shirin are lovers? I don't know if I could handle that. What would your kids look like? and how mentally disturbed would they be?
Shirin is a very polite hate monger and liar. Rowan is a useful little fool on the dole.
Any more truth need be exposed about those two?
No. And now the real meat on the menu: chris berel is a guy born in the USA, who has lived all his life off
the goys, is protected by them– both the cops at home and the GIs overseas. And he thanks you goys
by being a rabid Israel Firster. With Americans like him, who needs enemies? BTW, he's been on the dole forever, is obviously a non-polite hate monger and liar. Has no understanding at all of history.
No, I've lived my whole life exploiting Native Americans. They do my every bidding. They harvest my grain, milk my cows, draw my water. And they do it gratefully.
No, I'm not polite to hate mongers, antisemites, Islamic Fascists, neo-nazis, and their ilk, like you and Rowan.
"Shall you tell them the awful truth, Shirin, or shall I? Or shall we just let it ride?"
Nah – just let it ride.
S, Shirin also wishes to keep the relationship a secret. I can't blame them. What would his mother think? ;)
chris wears his foreskin around his neck.
Is that where yours went?
2 chris berel: I'm natural. You're not. I'm sensitive, you're not. So it goes.
The info is very intelligent!! thanks!