My group got into Gaza two days ago, and it feels like a month already. I think the most significant impression I can convey is my surprise at how vibrant and alive the place is. I'd steeled myself to see endless destruction. Certainly every image of physical destruction that we saw last December and January can be found; but the shock is the realization that Palestinian life goes forward with incredible perseverance and charm and dignity. Downtown Gaza city is vibrant, full of street life, and the traffic is now and then interrupted by a flatbed truck going by with a wedding band banging drums on it, and a Mercedes carrying the bride and groom in tow.
It is not that the world's blockade of Gaza is not evident. It is evident at almost every turn. Most buildings downtown are dark at night. Generators go in the street. Store shelves are thin, and the sense of high unemployment is everywhere at hand. The commerce feels like that of a dusty Caribbean island.
But the essential spirit of the place seems unaltered by recent events. In fact, people tell you that they insist on being engaged with life so as to be able to imagine a different future than what is right in front of them. And that includes the university student whose father was dragged away to an Israeli prison three years ago for no good reason and the young graduate who chokes tears as she tells you that four times she saw scholarships abroad evaporate because she could not get out of the country.
And I should add that no one seems to be starving. No one we have seen yet. The markets are not crowded but they're not empty either. We see piles of watermelons by the side of the road and trucks filled with potatoes, and donkeys going by hauling wagons of tomatoes. Now and then you see a gleaming motorcycle. The tunnels are in fine fettle along the border with Egypt. There are so many of them, and they are so obvious, that there must be some complicity on the part of Israel in their continued existence: they serve to lessen the horror of Gaza's condition, in the eyes of the world, and so they serve Israel too.
Of that horror I will have much to say in the days to come. This is an emotionally exhausting trip. From one hour to the next we hear one tragic story after another of persecution. That's the word that keeps coming to mind: persecution, of the Palestinians, by the state of Israel. I find myself drawing closer to the Jewish members of the trip, if only to remind myself that they feel as outraged as I do by the affliction carried out in our name.
I remember during the Gaza slaughter that some tried to stop commentators from comparing Gaza to the Warsaw ghetto. Now I am here and I find the analogy helpful. In the Warsaw ghetto, and in slavery in the south, or in Jim Crow 100 years later–in any of these historical episodes of persecution that had a racist component–it wasn't as if the victimized people laid down and died. No, the blacks of the south created a rich culture on whatever terms were afforded to them. And the books my mother gave me of the Warsaw ghetto conveyed the treasure of Jewish life and culture that persisted even under the most humiliating circumstances. So in Gaza, with Israeli jeeps creeping up one border and gunboats cruising along the other, and bomb craters everywhere, and no one allowed to pursue their dreams, Palestinians are still leading engaged, serious, and even at-time joyous lives. Last night I watched the European Cup finals with about 100 of them in a crowded restaurant. The cruelty of the fact that a global festival that calls on talent from across the world is in no real way open to the people in the place was lost for an hour or two amid the shouts for Messi and Barcelona.
Related posts:
- Dershowitz likened Gaza to Warsaw ghetto
- NYT uses Edelman obit for Holocaust kitsch, and leaves out the pro-Palestinian angle
- Vermont Jew breaks personal taboo and decries Gaza as Warsaw Ghetto (Gaza effect in U.S. is still subterranean but Huge)
- Neoconservative Found Alive but Delirious in Cave in Lower Manhattan
- Post-Gaza, Palestinian issue has finally entered the American progressive bloodstream
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I just wondered, if Phil shows up soon, and if Adam doesn't feel lonely here.
I'm glad to hear news.
The Palestinian people are very resilient, as are the Lebanese people…As much as Israel has attempted to beat them down they come back each time more resilient than ever…
Did you see any Hamas terrorists shooting rockets into Israel?
Chances are he will see the Israeli forces once again bombing Gaza before he sees Hamas shooting rockets into Israel thedhimmi….
Thanks, Phil. We're all thinking of you and the courageous people of Gaza. Thanks for your lovely description of stalwart integrity: "Palestinian life goes forward with incredible perseverance and charm and dignity…..In fact, people tell you that they insist on being engaged with life so as to be able to imagine a different future than what is right in front of them. " How great to know that you and they could enjoy the European Cup: we were watching it with you and didn't even know it. Please, Phil, tell the people of Palestine how much we all think of them and admire their heroism. Thank you.
Could you give us the link to the news of rockets from Gaza in the two days he has been there, dhimmi? Are you suggesting he leaves Gaza and goes to Israel to wait for rockets?
See any leftover IDF turds in the kitchen sinks or tables–you know, from the pimply lights to the world?
As Phil brings the Mondoweiss faithful the eyewitness account we've all waited for, the "collision course" between the US and Israel seems unavoidable. Both sides are digging their heels in, and it's clear that Obama is being challenged by the Likudniks who petulantly refuse to cease the settlement encroachments. CodePink is calling upon Obama to visit the Gaza Strip himself to see the devastation first-hand. Hopefully, if this happens, Phil will be there — the right moment in history. Godspeed, Phil.
Thanks Phil for making this journey and bringing us these accounts. I look forward to the next one!
I think the "complicity" regarding the tunnels is not so much directly between Israel and Gaza as it is between Israel and Egypt. Egypt knows, and has known all along, who runs supplies through Sinai to the tunnel operators, and treats it as a permitted black market, in which they (the Egyptian police and army primarily) take the lion's share of the profits. Israel regards it as a means of recruiting informers, and occasionally fifth-columnists (while reserving the right to bomb the tunnels and bury a few people alive whenever it feels like doing so). So both Egypt and Israel gain something from it, which they would not if supplies to Gaza were permitted overground in a normal, legal way.
These are the posts I've been (and, I'm sure, most every other reader) have been waiting for. Your eyewitness posts from inside Gaza. I will be reading them with great interest, and I'm very excited to read them. Thanks so much, Mondoweiss.
"There are so many of them, and they are so obvious, that there must be some complicity on the part of Israel in their continued existence: they serve to lessen the horror of Gaza's condition, in the eyes of the world, and so they serve Israel too." They also serve as a convenient excuse to invoke everytime Livni, Barak, or Bibi want to murder a few thousand civilians as a campaign stunt. The Israeli government does not care about smuggling of weapons. The Israeli government wants more and more excuses to continue on its one founding maxim and raison d'etre: more land, less Arabs.
I was also very moved by the passage you quote, especially because it tallies with many other descriptions I have read about the Gazans. To remain un-brutalised under an occupation whose intent is collective punishment leading to the disintergration of Gazan society is indeed herioc. So it's come to this- the Israelis eveoke comparisons with Nazis, and Palestinians evoke images of the heroism of the Warsaw Ghetto. It is not within me to conclude that Israel has become a refuge only for Jews with criminal tendencies. More and more I wonder what the leaders of Israel do to expunge any possibility of peaceful engagement from Israeli society. I wonder if it would not be possible for those with other possible solutions to offer, instead of throwing themselves against AIPAC or even the Likud, to go "under their heads" and go directly to any part of the Israeli public ready to listen.
Bravo, Phil! We hope to join you soon. Sumud in action, despite–or maybe because of–everything.
Obama seems to have caved in with distressing celerity to the neo-con canards which underlay our War on Iraq and War on Afghanistan. Is it too much to hope that Obama will insist on a different vision for the Israel-Palestine problems?
I think it's mainly just food and household goods. It is not in the interest of either Egypt or Israel for more than a few controlled and tracked consignments of 'weapons' (I think this would in practice be explosives) to get through — these would be cases where they are actually intended to reach provocateur-inflitrated groups, because Israel does appreciate the occasional attack from Gaza, to keep the pot boiling and to maintain the blacklisting of Hamas. Often, if you look carefully at the news stories and follow-ups, you find that the projectiles are fired by Fatah-affiliated groups, not by Hamas (or Islamic Jihad, for that matter).
Yes. Obama's hands are tried; it doesn't matter what he hopes or envisions.
Thanks Phil, for bearing witness to the essential HUMANITY of the men and women and Gaza Strip. Long live Palestine!
Really wonderful piece. Thanks so much for going to Gaza with CODEPINK and thanks for this post. Looking forward to more. Nancy K, CODEPINK NYC
Yes, this was my experience when I was in Gaza during the Disengagement in 2005. Shock at the devastation wrought by Israel. Awe at the resilience of the people of Gaza. Still, no matter how resilient they are, there are kids in the camps suffering from malnutrition, and farmers and business owners with their livelihoods destroyed, and people crowded into ever fewer homes as Israel destroys more and more. And the dead will never be married, watch football anymore, or have a chance for an overseas scholarship. Unbelievable that the world allows all this.
the young graduate who chokes tears as she tells you that four times she saw scholarships abroad evaporate because she could not get out of the country. This is the only reason I support an academic boycott of Israel
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/29/world/middleeas... Ethan Bronner's column just posted should provide interesting fodder for comparative journalism. Perhaps Phil will even be able to comment on it. Awful, of course.
The prevaricating begins in the second paragraph: Hamas took full control [YUP, GAZA IS SOVEREIGN] of this coastal strip, Gaza is like an island adrift. Squeezed from without by an Israeli and Egyptian boycott [BOYCOTT? YEAH, THEY"RE JUST CHOOSING NOT TO DO BUSINESS WITH GAZA, NOT BLOCKADING AND PREVENTING THE ENTRY OF EVERY POSSIBLE GOOD AND AMENITY] and from within by their Islamist rulers, the 1.5 million people here are cut off from any productivity or hope.
I wish we could try Cheney's hands.
"Often, if you look carefully at the news stories and follow-ups, you find that the projectiles are fired by Fatah-affiliated groups, not by Hamas (or Islamic Jihad, for that matter)." Yup, I've niticed that, too.
I'm glad your ok. Your comments do sound like they mirror Ethan Bronner's reports from Gaza two months ago, and today's. But, you criticized those reports then as biased, censored.
It's hard to know exactly what to think until Richard Witty posts. After that, it's impossible!
You're right, Marion. And I think that Phil did an excellent showing as much.
To play devils advocate here, the violence ended months ago… they must've have cleared up by now.
The complement of your post "Gaza is still alive" is that "Sderot is still alive" as well. Ethan Bronner summarized that Gaza was hurting, but not desparately, that the nature of their situation was not oppression in the manner that most dissidents presented, including Phil. I'm sure there is suffering, and much that is unfair, and certainly much trauma and understandable anger. The majority of Gazans are simply civilians, not Hamas militia. An important question is if the situation towards the end of the cease-fire resembled the current assessment, that Gaza was hurting but not in fact desparate, leading to the question of whether the resumption of shelling of civilians in Sderot and Ashkelon in December was necessary by any definition, or a wise choice. One conclusion from seeing firsthand Gaza ok, is "see Israel can't defeat us". Another is "Israel is not the sadistic community that we paint." Will Phil's political conclusions be the result of reasoned fresh open-minded inquiry, or the result of propagandistic rationalization, supported by externally disciplining cadre?
Thank you, Phil. You just wrote the post that I would have put on my blog. It's the message I've been trying to say on Dove's Eye View for 5 years and more. My message gets confused sometimes because I lose hope myself, or I think that while I have hope, others do not. Every time I turn to my reading sources for comfort, somebody quotes Victor Frankl, the psychiatrist who survived the Holocaust and wrote about finding meaning in the most desperate of situations. Life goes on no matter what. We need to fight injustice. And we need to notice that no matter how bad it gets, humanity endures. Thank you for witnessing, Phil. Thank you for making this journey and for writing about what you see. Now you get it. Palestine will be free!
For the goal of reconciliation, I hope that the conclusion on the ground is more "Israel is not the sadistic community that is painted", so some acceptance of the other is possible.
He could have just stayed here and written, in fact you could have written it for him. why bother visiting if you know what conclusion you want?
Richard, I think you're headed for the big-time! Both your mis-reading and the sheer condescension you exude make me think you might be ready for "serious" journalism. So basically, everything is not so bad because 1000 civilians were not killed while Phil was there? "Israel is not the sadistic community that we paint." First of all, who are you quoting here? When you were a child did you have imaginery friends, only to grow up to have imaginary debate opponents? But no matter. So is that your conception of what Mondoweiss does? Paint Israel as a sadistic society? Gosh, he's so lucky a peaceful, fair guy like you posts here, to set him straight.
"Israel is not the sadistic community that is painted", Who are you quoting?
I just love that "reconciliation". But I think it's very telling (if an ordinary Jew like me could decipher a goddam thing from your posts) that you think what Phil is posting portrays Israel as a compassionate "community". O shit, Witty, there you go again! The Gazans, yes, you could call a "community", sure, if you wanted, an occupied community. Israel is not a "community" it is a country, a sovereign nation. Funny how Israel shrinks when there's any responsibility to be taken, huh?
Witty: "Israel is not the sadistic community that is painted". But not for lack of trying. It is however not able under present arrangements to put up checkpoints within Gaza. If it were the sadism would be more overt. Now it is mainly expressed in economic sabotage and sonic booms which make sleeping difficult – and from time to time a targeted killing or a massacre. For checkpoint sadism see: http://pamolson.org/ArtCheckptSyn.htm
I used to be friends with an Israeli whose father is a neurologist at Haifa. When the AUT first tried a boycott in 2005, she was indignant that he had to sign a declaration of solidarity to escape the boycott and invoked the R.E.M. song 'Exhuming McCarthy'. She didn't do military service and my admiration of that made me overlook a lot of things she said that, thinking back, did her fair share to turn me against Zionism.
feels difficult. If I understand this correctly. "You know the Niger Papers, no we didn't notice they were fakes, after all the circled widely in the services communities. We had to believe they were true. Informations otherwise must have escaped the analysts, none of them told us. Oh, and the famous student paper. Well none of us was really aware of its origin and date. And we really, really, really believed Curveball. It looked like Saddam could nuke the States any day now. " Consider 911, we simply had to act.
And exactly how is israel to deal with the genocidal Gazan population?
An ordinary Jew? Or a stupid Jew? It appears you are of the stupid persuation if you have that much a problem understanding Witty's posts. Perhaps you are of the retarded persuation?
I hope you move to Gaza. Hopefully, you will also be buried in Gaza.
The humanity of the Genocidally minded Gazans? I understand that David Irving stood witness to the humanity of the typical nazi German.
Because he is blind to the actions of the genocidally minded gazans?
I was never able to see any 'meaning' in Victor Frankl's work, myself. He seems to me just to be a practitioner of the Holocaust mystique who cloaks himself in the vocabulary of existential psychoanalysis, whereas most of them cloak themselves in the vocabulary of existentialist secular theology, but none of them seem to me to have anything actually to say. Perhaps his sole value is as an alibi — if one cites him, one presumably proves that one is no 'anti-Semite'. There are quite a few token Jews of this sort, in the intellectual sphere as in others. Isn't it ironic that the "activist" Jewish concentration camp inmates, like Frankl, referred to those who refused to support them as "Musselmänner", meaning by this to insinuate that the way of the Muslim is fatalist, that the Muslim is a sheep who goes mindlessly to the slaughter, ready to die without a murmur, and that they created a whole phony pathology around this term?
"you are of the stupid persuation… the retarded persuation" Uh, Yakob…its spelled persuasion, not persuation.
epitaph for a nations zeal sowed the seeds for the real new one world order like from space no nasty lines for her figure to disgrace no army’s standing lying buried underground no opposition needed and never any found we all must look out for each other that's what this life’s about it's there in the waves cascading and in the rooftop shout
Gee Jacob, who have the Palestinians genocided? I really don't think you should squeal too much about "genocidally minded" when all that Amelek talk is coming out of Israel. Come to think of it, who have the Palestinians even displaced. I thought the Romans kicked the Jews out of the Holy Land, but I wasn't there, so I don't know.
" the result of propagandistic rationalization, supported by externally disciplining cadre?" Look, Richard, why don't you just say you think Phil Weiss is a dumbshit, who can have his entire intellectual process corrupted for a bite of huimmus? Like I said, a Zionist speedball- ziocaine and schmaltz!
I admit I'm not very smart, Jacob. About average intelligence or a little less, maybe. I almost didn't meet the minimum intelligence requirements for a Jewish male, but I got let in as a "legacy" , cause my Mom and Dad both were Jews. Sorry, but what could I do. Oh, and the "retard" part. Yes, Jacob, thank God no Jewish baby is ever born with neurological defects, or reduced intelligence as a result of disease. And if they are, I'm sure you know what to do about it. There were a few, of the many, children among my family who were "special needs". Maybe they really weren't Jewish. What would you do if you had a special needs child, Jacob? Yell at it: "How can you embarrass the Jews like this? Stop faking!"
How were the German supposed to deal with the genocidal Warsaw Ghetto population? I had older relatives, survivors of WW2, who told me they would have, if they were able at the time, killed every German they saw. What choice did the Germans have? If the Warsawq Ghetto Resistance fighters were adequately armed and supplied, and if there were ten times as many, there would have been a genocide. I've had many Jews tell me that many times. Genocidally minded, weren't they? But who, exactly have the Gazans genocided?
And seriously, Jacob, let me assure you, and I think everybody knows this, if the Israelis make any basic compromises on settlement or borders, the USA (hell, the entire world) will be so grateful they will do anything necessary to see no Israelis get hurt. And Jacob, my friend, when you keep squealing about "the genocidally-minded Gazans" who are a fraction of Israel's population, have none of Israel's resources, and have shown not even a fraction of Israel's military drive and capabilities, people could really get the impression Israels a WATB. That's a Hebrew anagram which stands for Whiny Ass Titty Babies. Or sometimes they're called "chickenshits". I mean, I know hopw big and brave (and smart, so smart) you Israelis are, but people could get the wrong impression, Jacob. Just a little friendly advice, you know, from a dumb Jew to a smart one.
If you can't understand 'how' then there is no hope for you and yours at all in Israel or anywhere else …. Palestinians are resourceful, creative and independent. and will never give up their claim to their land.. Philip Weiss has just confirmed those facts… Israel will never live in peace until people like you recognize the fact that no one can steal another's lands and relegate them to concentration camps and expect to live 'happily ever after' in their homes and on their lands….. As I see it..it's not the Palestinians who are genocidal..it's the Israeli's and their Diaspora supporters…Can we say Iran? TATA TATA
what world do you live in Mooser. you say the stupidest shit.
you people throw around the word genocide pretty loosely, you say stupid shit also Jacob
Edithann, and you think the 2 or 3 generations of sabras in Israel are going to just give the land back? its their land now my friend.
Well, they didn't. It's nothing but a myth, I'm afraid: http://bit.ly/1sSAa ; http://bit.ly/1sSAa .
You girls sure are something! Keep it up.
I don't expect the sabras will give it back unless there's a war and the sabras lose. Just as the Crusaders had to give the land back.
Jacobwolen, how could anybody resist your quiet charm, goodwill, forebearance, and gentle reasoning. You make Edward Said look like a cave-man, a real primitive. That's it, Jacob, you show us all the kind of heavenly stuff Zionists are made of. I can't imagine why, at this point, Zionism doesn't capture the heart and wallet of the entire United States. Why would anybody not want to be a part of a movement which boasts all the most nutty fanatic Jews and Christians? You'll have to give out numbers and make them wait their turn.
Senhal, a myth is as good as a mile, as the saying goes. And that myth got the Zionists miles and miles of land. Well, that myth and quite a bit of terrorism, of course.
No one, quite frankly, realisticly expects the Israelis to "hand the land back" and no-one has asked them to. There is a tremendous amount the Israelis can do, first to relieve the suffering of the Palestinians, and second, to allow Israelis to learn the facts and decide how to live in peace in the Middle East. In fact, I think the Israelis could solve most of their problems without giving any land back. But just keep referring to any possible solutions as "handing the land back". If that';s really what you want to do, I'm sure it can be arranged.
That was the only appropriate answer he could give. Anything else would've paled in sheer historical force.
But who, exactly have the Gazans genocided? That's the point. I can't understand the mentality that simply calls them the antisemites. Amazing.
Witless ALWAYS tries to equate the conflict. Equal forces, equal sufferings, equal atrocities, etc. It's always been disproportionate atrocities/racism/hatred/bigotry/criminality against the Arabs. Like always, if he can equate the conflict then Israel wins because the Zionist perspective is the dominant perspective in the West. Witty is a liar. Big surprise.
mr. weiss- there's little question that the palestinians living in gaza have suffered and have shown resilience, but your evocation of the warsaw ghetto may be satisfying emotionally, but yields very little logically or practically. of course anyone sensitive feels empathy for the woman who has been denied an exit visa to attend school abroad, but can this be compared to the warsaw ghetto? stacks of watermelons, new motorcycles and this is comparable to the warsaw ghetto? you are preaching to your choir. you are not a journalist, but a cheerleader.
I agree, it's not the Warsaw Ghetto, but does that make the situation in Gaza any less abhorrent? And remember, all those watermelons were smuggled in through the tunnels. What would happen if there weren't any tunnels?
I think it is an important point that the Gaza unexpected health comes from accepted illegal tunnels rather than normalization of borders and accompanying relations. That does construct a threat that Israel or Egypt could relatively easy press, by later closing the tunnels. But, there is a decision that Hamas must make regarding that "if". That is that if "if" Hamas acts in ways that participate civilly in the formation of a Palestinian unity government, and UNCONDITIONALLY yeilds to the continued rule of law/constitution in the PA, rather than conditionally, then there is the prospect of negotiation with Israel TO normalize borders. (They are not normal borders anyway. There are few countries in which so large a % of the population work in the other's community.) To state "we will never negotiate with Israel" is a self-hating strategy, if by negotiation one's goals can be met. It is the SAME proposal that is made regarding the US relative to Iran, that it is more likely that acceptable relations result from talking with those that even currently hate you, than not talking.
I agree, the suffering sucks, as does the occupation and the bullshit settlements. All can be alleviated by enacting the Saudi initiative. Even if it requires some sort of land swap and East Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital.
Both the Israelis and the Palestinians identify with the native American wars. We all know what happened to the native Americans. Then came the Nuremberg Trials and their progeny international laws. The Palestinians also identify with Jim Crow. Then came the Civl Rights Act, 100 years after the USA Civil War. Then came the internationally forced dismantling of the apartheid S Africa state, including its nukes. Now Obama is the USA president. Is the writing now on the wall?
Phil -congratulations on getting into Gaza, and good to hear that 'Gaza Is Still Alive' , but then after all the Israelis only managed to slaughter 0.01% of their population in the last 'incursion'. That should be enough to get the rest moving, if they have anywhere to go. Deir Yassin was a much more efficient exercise- got well over half the Palestinian population to trek to the east (with other measures) . The IOF are losing their touch, just as the SS and the Wehrmacht did. Please keep on giving us your personal, first-hand impressions – they are a lot more useful than US-based pontifications.
Arie Brand – I've seen and heard Israeli sonic booms over Lebanon and Jordan, over a quarter of a century ago. The only reason they can do it now, to terrify Gazans at night, is because they've either bought or stolen American technology, and are not scared shitless of flying into a mountain. There aren't many mountains in Gaza.
There's a book by an Israeli philosopher, can't remember his name, called "Quicksand", that goes after Frankl, if I recall correctly.
UNCONDITIONALLY yeilds to the continued rule of law/constitution in the PA, Like Fatah did when it tried launching a coup against Hamas, or maybe like what Mahmoud Abbas is doing now by unconstitutionally extending his Presidential term by a year (it ended in march)
mister weiss is indulging in ridiculous rhetoric and he should be called on it.__as far as the situation in gaza: i don't quite understand the closure that egypt has placed on the strip. there should be a normal influx of people and goods allowed with reasonable inspections (or stringent inspections) to insure that no arms are being brought in or being taken out.__as far as the influx of people and goods from israel, gaza is at war with israel, it is not willing to declare itself an independent state, it is not willing to allow red cross to visit gilad shalit after almost 3 years. it is not willing to sign a peace treaty or even a truce. it is reasonable for israel to not allow any influx of people and goods with gaza, but not to stand in the way of an influx of people and goods from egypt.
When did Hamas refuse to negotiate with Israel? They were trying a few months ago I remember. The US and Israel are the ones refusing to talk with Hamas.
gaza is at war with israel, it is not willing to declare itself an independent state, it is not willing to allow red cross to visit gilad shalit after almost 3 years. it is not willing to sign a peace treaty or even a truce. I don't think any of those four statements make much sense. I don't really believe anything I read about Shalit.
there are four countries which border on israel. egypt, jordan, lebanon and syria. of the four two of them have peace treaties with israel- egypt and jordan. there is some flow of people and goods between egypt and israel and between jordan and israel. there are two territories also adjacent to israel- gaza and the west bank. in gaza there are no jewish settlements and no israeli soldiers, but there is also no peace between gaza and israel. "I don't believe anything i read about Shalit". so you don't believe that he's never been visited by the red cross. you don't believe he is being held by somebody in gaza. you don't believe negotiations have taken place between israel and hamas with egypt as the go between regarding an exchange of prisoners. you don't believe he was taken prisoner??? i guess radical disbelief is a "valid" posture.
Bullseye!
Outstanding work, Phil!
Just looking at the Wikipedia page on him makes my head spin. Even the Dagmush Clan seem to have had a hand in his captivity — I doubt if Hamas are in any more control of his situation than they are of anything else really. If there weren't letters forwarded every now and then via Hamas (which doesn't mean they themselves are holding him, or even know where he is) I would doubt he was even still alive.
your statement is clearer now. when ariel sharon decided to withdraw the settlers and the soldiers from gaza it was not necessarily a peace move, but more like a move for movement sake. his personality was different from that of yitzhak shamir who saw his role as sitting at the chess board without making any move at all and handing off to his successor a situation no worse than the one he received. sharon wished to leave his mark on history. hamas feels because it is a liberation movement that it has zero responsiblity. the fate of shalit being unsure is just one symptom of their irresponsibility. it is conceivable that the decision to not extend the cease fire in december was reached in damascus by meshal under the influence of iran. that's no way to run a country. but they're not a country. they're a liberation movement.
well, I wouldn't even go so far as to say that it was Hamas's 'decision' (whether Hamas-Gaza or Hamas-Damascus) to 'end the cease-fire'. There are posts right here on MondoWeiss, and certainly plenty elsewhere, which say that Israel unilaterally broke the ceasefire, by launching air-to-ground missiles from helicopters at people in Gaza it claimed were 'qassam launch teams'. If you like (since we seem to be having an agreeably agnostic discussion here), we could say that we just don't know, that As Rumsfeld used to say, 'shit happens'.
as far as i can tell, israel was guilty of abrogating the cease fire in november. (approximately on november 4th) but after that violation that cease fire was reestablished from the first week of november until about the 19th of december, at which time hamas announced that it was not interested in extending the cease fire. there is a difference between violating a cease fire and not extending a cease fire. hamas gave its reason for their refusal to extend as the siege rather than the violation of the cease fire in november.
if my memory serves me correctly israel violated the cease fire on the 4th of november (approximately), but the cease fire was reestablished within days and continued until the 6 month period ended approximately on the 19th of december at which time hamas announced that it did not wish to extend the cease fire. if they had wanted to they could have given israel's violation as the cause of their refusal. but the reason they gave was the siege.
Sure. I'm just so naïve that I think that if every US newspaper op-ed had to preface the obligatory exile-as-justification bit with the caveat that it's just a myth, it would have a drastic impact on the rhetorical force of the argument.(And maybe acquaintance with the current state of historical knowledge might play a part in modifying the beliefs of those who are Zionists just by default. I my dreams, I know…)
"Come to think of it, who have the Palestinians even displaced." You seem to have forgotten that the palestinian Jordanians ethnically cleansed Jerusalem. They dusplaced all of the Jews living there.
Seriously, take your advice and shove it back up your ass. If you need help. I'll see if Ed's head is available.
So you're blind. Next!
Jacob, bubeleh, I promise you, as long as you post here, you will never be without my advice. Oh, don't thank me Jacob, my chochem, it's what any Jew would do for another. The early Zionist leaders never held back from telling the potential settlers everything they needed to know, and I would be doing an anti-mitzvah if I did anything less for you. We are going to be closer than brothers, Jacob. "Dos hartz hot mir gezogt"!
There may be shiny new motorcycles, but I bet not on of them is over 500cc. Not do they have radial brakes, upside-down forks, cassette gearboxes, radial tires, petal-cut rotors, fuel-injection or perimeter frames. Who can live like that?
Phil, Thanks so much for bringing us news of Israeli hostage Gilad Shalit. It was wonderful of you to visit him in that Hamas underground prison cell in southern Gaza, to report to us on how well Hamas takes care of their guests, and to send him our love. Thanks also for involving the Red Cross in Geneva-convention-mandated visits to Gilad Shalit. You DID visit Gilad Shalit, didn't you? You ARE concerned about "Human Rights", aren't you? You DO identify as a Jew and want to see justice done to all people, not just Hamas terrorists, don't you?
So if Phil doesn't visit Shalit (as if he is going to be able to have access to him), he doesn't care about human rights? This is the same logic Zionists use to deflect criticism about their human rights record. They avoid the issue by changing the subject to Darfur for example. And how can any Zionist complain about Shalit, who is an enemy soldier, versus the regular kidnappings of Palestinian civilians by the Israeli army? Many of them minors. And furthermore, 1000s of these prisoners are not charged with anything. I don't think Zionists even care about their soldiers because it has nothing to do with principle. This moron, Jake in Jerusalem, keeps harping on Hamas and Shalit as if reporting on the conditions of Gaza truthfully (as Phil is) is somehow supportive of Shalit's captivity or advocacy for Hamas. I remember seeing that Nazi, Caroline Glick talking about the settlers and the Palestinians in the WB. She was talking about how Palestinians blow homes up and Jewish settlers build them. This sanctimony is truly disgusting. Zionists do not ever take into account that their fascist State was founded on terrorism. Massacres of entire villages, rapes, random killings, countless attacks of civilians, etc. All of this stuff has continued to the present. Shalit is one guy. There are 1000s of Palestinians held prisoner unjustly by the Israeli State. In fact, Israel even legalized kidnapping until 2000, right? In every single sense, the atrocities and violence and terrorism has come from in more frequency/impact/etc. from the Israeli Jews. Not the Palestinians.
Haven't read all the replies to the Shalit statement, but all I have to say is that for the one Shalit you whine about about there are hundreds of Palestinians whose loved ones grieve for them in the thousands. The numbers are incomparable. I never fail to be shocked by the incredible narrow-mindedness of the Israeli "defense" mentality. But then of course, given that Palestinian blood is inherently less human than Israeli, I guess it does make sense.
"When did Hamas refuse to negotiate with Israel? They were trying a few months ago I remember. The US and Israel are the ones refusing to talk with Hamas." Don't try and convince Witty of that. It's wasted effort. Witty can't get anywhere without the basic Hasbara equivalency canards.
Jake is using here a big No.3 , known as "You Suck!" Sure would be nice if he would just refer to them by number. It's really all you need for Hasbara Here's a quick rundown: 1. Israel Rocks! 2. Arabs Suck! 3. You Suck! (You're not visiting Shalit, in this case) 4. The Whole World Sucks Here's the full explanation: http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/07/ho...
Indeed, phil told me that a little piece of shit would always be there. He was talking about you.
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