Ali Abunimah just posted the latest from the Gaza Freedom March on his blog and says he is "still determined" to get into Palestine. Forward!
OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT MUBARAK FROM THE GAZA FREEDOM MARCH
December 26, 2009
Dear President Mubarak;
We, representing 1,362 individuals from 43 countries arriving in Cairo to participate in the Gaza Freedom March, are pleading to the Egyptians and your reputation for hospitality.
We are peacemakers. We have not come to Egypt to create trouble or cause conflict. On the contrary. We have come because we believe that all people — including the Palestinians of Gaza — should have access to the resources they need to live in dignity. We have gathered in Egypt because we believed that you would welcome and support our noble goal and help us reach Gaza through your land.
As individuals who believe in justice and human rights, we have spent our hard-earned, and sometimes scarce, resources to buy plane tickets, book hotel rooms and secure transportation only to stand in solidarity with the Palestinians of Gaza living under a crushing Israeli blockade.
We are doctors, lawyers, students, academics, poets and musicians. We are young and old. We are Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists and secular. We represent civil society groups in many countries who came together and coordinated this large project with the civil society in Gaza.
We have raised tens of thousands of dollars for medical aid, school supplies and winter clothing for the children of Gaza. But we realize that in addition to material aid, the Palestinians of Gaza need moral support. We came to offer that support on the difficult anniversary of an invasion that brought them so much suffering.
The idea of the Gaza Freedom March—a nonviolent march to the Israeli Erez crossing– emerged during one of our trips to Gaza in May, a trip that was kindly facilitated by the Egyptian government. Ever since the idea emerged, we have been talking to your government through your embassies overseas and directly with your Foreign Ministries. Your representatives have been kind and supportive. We were asked to furnish information about all the participants—passports, dates of birth, occupations—which we have done in good faith. We have answered every question, met every request. For months we have been working under the assumption that your government would facilitate our passage, as it has done on so many other occasions. We waited and waited for an answer.
Meanwhile, time was getting short and we had to start organizing. Travel over the Christmas season is not easy in the countries where many of us live. Tickets have to be purchased weeks, if not months, in advance. This is what all 1,362 individuals did. They spent their own funds or raised money from their communities to pay their way. Add to this the priceless time, effort and sacrifice by all these people to be away from their homes and loved ones during their festive season.
In Gaza, civil society groups—students, unions, women, farmers, refugee groups—have been working nonstop for months to organize the march. They have organized workshops, concerts, press conferences, endless meetings—all of this with their own scarce resources. They have been buoyed by the anticipated presence of so many global citizens coming to support their just cause.
If the Egyptian government decides to prevent the Gaza Freedom March, all this work and cost is lost.
And that’s not all. It is practically impossible, this late in the game, to stop all these people from travelling to Egypt, even if we wanted to. Moreover, most have no plans in Egypt other than to arrive at a predetermined meeting point to head together to the Gaza border. If these plans are cancelled there will be a lot of unjustified suffering for the Palestinians of Gaza and over a thousand internationals who had nothing in mind but noble intentions.
We plead to you to let the Gaza Freedom March continue so that we can join the Palestinians of Gaza to march together on December 31, 2009.
We are truly hopeful that we will receive a positive response from you.
We thank you for your kind assistance and understanding.
Tighe Barry, Gaza Freedom March coordinator
Medea Benjamin, CODEPINK, USA
Olivia Zemor, Euro-Palestine, France
David Torres, ECCP, Belgium
Germano Monti, Forum Palestine, Italy
Ziyaad Lunat, Gaza Freedom March, Europe Ehab Lotayef, Gaza Freedom March, Canada
Alessandra Mecozzi, Action for Peace-Italy
Ann Wright, Gaza Freedom March coordinator
Kawthar Guediri, Collectif National pour une Paix Juste et Durable entre Palestinens et Israeliens, France
Pingback: Ohne rosa Zuckerguss « Urs1798’s Weblog
I’ve yet to read anywhere an analysis about why Egypt is taking the side of the Israelis on this question. Mubarak’s fear of the sentiments of the Egyptian people? American financial aid? The decision doesn’t compute–it’s not like anyone is asking Egypt to go to war with Israel or something. As it is, Egypt is taking a position which puts them at odds with humanitarian opinion all over the world, and for what?
he just got a call from his bosses in TLV and US to stop the march from Egypt because IDF doesnt have the time to oppress Internationals, they got enough dirty work to do.
Sad to see, but Egypt has this fundamental right to protect its people by not joining into this mess of taking sides into this conflict…Yes it is only a nonviolent march but it essentially symbolic to vindicating one, and condemning the other. Let the world know first the historical facts of this conflict; who instigated and who was the real victim. Noble intents maybe inspired by a single purpose of helping and sympathizing with the abused, are truly expressed with clear conscience. However, I have reservations as I have seen many ways people expressed hatred. In belligerence, the underdog sometimes provoked the trouble to sow malice and shames his enemy. Sometimes the advantaged, abusively applied exceeding force in sheer disgust, and some violence were understandably responses in desperation to survive. There are many views over a conflict. But there remains the universal sense of justice. In our desire to express sympathy first we need to justify our conscience. At this significant moment, which side are we?
Firstly, may I recommend the website ifamericansknew.org, which is great if you want to acquaint yourself with the ins and outs of the conflict.
As for the Gaza freedom march, this is not an overtly political march, it’s there to express solidarity with the people of Gaza, who have suffered greatly since January 2007. Their convoy contains medicines, food, stationery and other humanitarian goods. The organisers have made it clear that they don’t want to cause any conflict whatsoever. What kind of government is so heartless, that it turns a blind eye to the constant difficulties faced by its neighbours? Not only that, but it enforces a blockade that makes the territory into an overcrowded open-air prison.
While thousands are desirous to sympathize with the Palestinians, I express my support and sympathy to the Egyptians. For they are needlessly dragged and shamed in this trouble not their own…The Egyptian government as we see, have only one interest, and that is to preserve the lives of its people.
In ordinary lives, when neighbors quarrel; knowing one is not in position to intervene, nor authority to quell them, nor complete understanding of the real cause, parents drive their children indoor for safety and immediately call the police. This is what the Egyptians are similarly doing. Shall we continue condemning them? Their government are simply ‘protecting their kids’. They are not shameful, we are…
How does enabling a humanitarian convoy to reach Gaza, put ordinary Egyptians at harm? The protests of millions of Egyptians during Operation Cast Lead, made it clear the Egyptians support the people of Gaza – so why IS the Egyptian government doing this?
We ordinary people could only judg what we see…People in the government see things deeper and broader than that. There are always implications which are hidden from ordinary person because these are sensitive matters of national security. This sounds typical idiotic, but real issues in governance; a matter of government responsibility. Have we not observed, politicians declare idealistic visions during electoral campaigns but does otherwise in actual service. Because they see things differently when they are in office. All of us ordinary citizens should and can do is trust our governments…We cannot just flaunt our intellectual superiority over them. If we are men of reason, we must be truly reasonable.
Your underestimating how much we know. We know exactly the same amount as what politicians know – the only difference is that we can afford to say what we like seeing as we don’t need money to be re-elected. The march had several prominent politicians associated with it. Are Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela and Jimmy Carter all wrong?
This is not even a political issue, it’s a humanitarian issue and there’s no excuse whatsoever for deliberately withholding food from an area with a population of 1.5 million. How many of those are still homeless 1 year on because they aren’t allowed building materials? I think you need to read up on the Human Declaration of Human Rights.
The blockade is inexcusable. What would you do if you were a Palestinian living in Gaza? Being given just enough food so that you could survive, but still remain hungry; have your home destroyed, but unable to rebuild it; have your entire family wiped out in one night; being given a scholarship to study at university in the West only to see it revoked because your neighbouring countries refuse to let you out?
Do we thing was is a vacation? When these things happen because we are at war, is it not our responsibility to really know why are we at war?
Do we think war is a vacation? When these things happen because we are at war, is it not our responsibility to really know why are we at war?
“We” are not at war with anyone, unless you are Israeli, then you need to ask yourself why your country is at war with the Palestinians.
We involved ourselves at war, then now we are crying we are suffering?
I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you mean. Who’s we? I’m not at war with anyone, but I do speak out against unjust wars and aggression.
Yes, ‘ we’ as I refer to our consciences.
And what does your conscience tell you about what’s happening to the Palestinians? Mine tells me that it’s horrid. My conscience declares war on anything I perceive as unjust. What’s happening to the Palestinians is unjust – no-one deserves that fate. And that is why I will continue to fight against it.
When a man commit suicide, it is very understandable your sorrow is on the dead man. But who made this dead person a victim? Himself. This is why our sorrow finds no solace…For what is sorrow and sympathy when the man is already dead? This tragedy is one thing we cannot find answer. What we can only hope is these people to stop committing political suicide…
Yet the Palestinians are not at fault. They are not committing suicide. They are being killed.
I really want to know as well.
I’ve heard plenty of theories that revolve around anecdotal evidence (he got paid, Israel threatened him, he’s afraid of Hamas because it might strengthen the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt etc )
But if anyone has any other op eds that tie the pieces together… please share.
The Egyptians are taking their own side. What happens when these demonstrators notice Egypt can open their own border with Gaza to ship in goods?
Israel would love Egypt to get involved with Gaza.
RE: “the Israelis will be happy to give up their beautiful country and become dhimmis…” – Julian, 12/20/09
SEE: “What Did You Learn In School Today?: Israel’s Center Cannot Hold”, By Bernard Avishai, 12/25/09
(EXCERPTS)…Israel’s education system has four streams: state, state-religious, ultra-Orthodox and Arab. There are fewer primary school students in the state education stream now than there were a decade ago. In contrast, the state-religious primary schools have seen a 9 percent increase since 2000. The number of children in the Israeli-Arab stream grew by 35 percent, while the number of ultra-Orthodox children grew by 49 percent. All of this transpired in just one decade. About half of all primary school students in Israel already study in either the Israeli Arab or the ultra-Orthodox systems….
….If these children adopt their parents’ work norms, then what can Israel look forward to in a number of years? Last year, 12.5 percent of men of prime working age (25 to 54) in OECD Western countries were non-employed, meaning they were either unemployed, or had dropped out of the labor force. The percentage of non-employed Israeli Arab men was almost twice that. Of the ultra-Orthodox men, more than 70 percent were non-employed. Among women, 74 percent of Arabs and 46 percent of ultra-Orthodox were non-employed, compared to only a third in the West….
….Since 1999, Israel has participated in five different international exams in mathematics, science and reading. In all but one of the exams, Israel’s children performed lower than their peers in every single Western country. In light of the fact that since the 1970s, Israel’s living standards have been steadily falling farther and farther behind the leading Western countries, these outcomes do not suggest a change in direction is in the offing….
ENTIRE ARTICLE – link to tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com
I SHOULD HAVE NOTED THAT IN THE EXCERPTS IMMEDIATELY ABOVE, AVISHAI IS QUOTING Dan Ben David, a Tel Aviv University economist
AVISHAI: Dan Ben David, a Tel Aviv University economist, and executive director of the Taub Center for Social Policy Studies, has led the writing of a report on Israel’s failing educational system. He summarizes its findings today in Haaretz. For secular Israelis–not Israelis who oppose expressions of religious imagination, but those who see these as inherently voluntary, and civil society as a space where conscience is protected–the results are sobering. I am quoting from Ben David extensively. It makes you happy to be 60 and not 20.
Israel’s education system has four streams: state, state-religious, ultra-Orthodox and Arab…
“HAARETZ” ARTICLE BY BEN DAVID (12/25/09) – link to haaretz.com
When people especially the children are in trauma, or in the midst of fear, intellegence is one first to suffer…I too experienced in my childhood difficulty in my studies because of that.
RE: “Israel would love Egypt to get involved with Gaza.”
MY COMMENT: I have read that very powerful pro-Israel U.S. Senator or Congressman (Howard Berman?) warned Egypt that their foreign aid (mostly military) payments from the U.S. would be terminated unless Egypt helped to keep the Gazans penned in.
ALSO SEE: “US army installs Gaza monitoring system”, Ma’an, 12/13/09
(excerpt)…But Cairo is hesitant about the second stage of the project, the installation of a steel wall underneath the borderline that Haaretz revealed earlier this week. This phase, which gained traction six months ago, is unpopular among Egyptian officials who feel pressured to go along with what they consider a purely American-Israeli initiative…
SOURCE – link to maannews.net
RE: “Israel would love Egypt to get involved with Gaza.” – Juliun
AND SEE:”US Cutting Gaza Lifeline”, Ann Wright, Uruk.net, Dec 11 2009
(excerpts) No doubt at the instigation of the Israeli government, the Obama administration has authorized the United States Army Corps of Engineers to design a vertical underground wall under the border between Egypt and Gaza. In Mar 2009 the US provided the government of Egypt with $32m for electronic surveillance and other security devices to prevent the movement of food, merchandise and weapons into Gaza. Now details are emerging about an underground steel wall that wil be 6-7 miles long and extend 55 feet straight down into the desert sand… The tunnels are the lifelines for Gaza since the international community agreed to a blockade of Gaza to collectively punish the citizens of Gaza for their having elected in Parliamentary elections in 2006 sufficient Hamas Parliamentarians that Hamas became the government of Gaza…
SOURCE – link to niqnaq.wordpress.com
When the international community agreed in the blockade, there must be solid basis. Our national leaders basically are capable in their jobs. We cannot simply condemn them and imply were are much better than them…
The international community agreed to a blockade without considering for one moment the humanitarian impact. And it wasn’t even the international community who agreed to a blockade, rather the US, Israel and a few other nations.
I also have to disagree with your naive claim that national leaders are capable in their jobs, especially if you’re talking about Egypt. Egypt’s national leaders are a disgrace and the essence of a democracy is the ability of ordinary people like you and me, to hold our leaders to account.
Of course, we cannot expect all nations to have significant involvement or interest to the region…they too have domestic problems to resolve.
Allowing a humanitarian convoy to get through does not require much effort. If the Egyptian people want their government to help the Palestinians, then it has a responsibility to do so.
RE: “Strange I don’t see Jimmy Carter’s apology to Israel on Mondoweiss. I guess Phil must have just missed it. I wouldn’t want to accuse him of giving biased information.” – Julian 12/23/09
SEE: “Jimmy Carter’s Yuletide Apology”, By RANNIE AMIRI, 12/25/09
In an open letter released this month to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA), former U.S. President Jimmy Carter apologized to the Jewish community(</b)…So what prompted it? Apparently, the political aspirations of his 34 year-old grandson, Jason Carter. Issued just one week after Jason announced he would be running for the Georgia State Senate seat likely being vacated by David Adelman (an Obama nominee for ambassador to Singapore), the March special election would be held in a district with a “vocal Jewish population” according to the AP. Denying the letter had anything to do with his campaign, Jason characterized it as a “great step toward reconciliation.” But, as JTA writes: “It seemed clear, however, that Jason Carter saw the apology, issued earlier this month through JTA, as a means of outreach. The younger Carter has been trying for days to reach Liane Levetan, a former state senator and CEO of DeKalb County, and as soon as they connected Tuesday, he directed her to the JTA Web site to read the letter.”
It is mentioned that “Levetan is one of 14 Jews who split with the Carter Center in 2006 after the publication of ‘Palestine: Peace not Apartheid.’” In an interview with the JTA, Carter said ethnic electoral consideration were not reason enough to reach out to the Jewish community, although he did not deny they were a factor. It seems you can take the man out of politics, but not politics out of the man. Merry Christmas Jason Carter.
ENTIRE ARTICLE – link to counterpunch.org
P.S. “All politics is local.” – Tip O’Neill
FROM HAARETZ, 12/25/09: …The pro-Israel group Shalom International on Thursday called Carter’s apology a publicity stunt. The group’s Bob Kunst said that Carter has sought to build a global movement against Israel. He said Carter’s apologies were questionable and fall on deaf ears….
ENTIRE ARTICLE – link to haaretz.com
We agree that Carter has no values and will change according to how it benefits him .
DICKERSON3870:
“I have read that very powerful pro-Israel U.S. Senator or Congressman (Howard Berman?) warned Egypt that their foreign aid (mostly military) payments from the U.S. would be terminated unless Egypt helped to keep the Gazans penned in.”
There you go again. Read where? In your head? You don’t even know if Berman is a Senator or Congressman. You make so much stuff up it’s hard to know what’s real.
Well, US military aid to Egypt was cut off last year (by Congress) because they didn’t do enough to stop ‘smuggling’ into Gaza
Or perhaps on the other hand, Carter has realized he has damaged a people who ought not be damaged. He is already at the twilight of his age, and has to clear things in life as he, at his appointed time will someday face his creator eventually. How about us?
Yet everything he said about Israel was justified. He had no reason to apologise for telling the truth. It’s the people who attempt to justify the continuing degradation of Palestinian Human Rights who should be worrying about their meeting with the Creator.
Then why was he apologizing for doing and saying what is right? Is Carter and his sympathizers imply we are at world of delusion? Is this Palestinian Israel conflict not real? Which is real? His apologies or the his truth?
Please read Dickerson’s post – that answers it all.
I don’t see what Carter’s ‘apology’ has to do with the I/P conflict being real – It is real.
Yes, as Israel love Egypt to get involved, it is us civil societies who are driving and pushing the Egyptians into involvement…
Carter must clarify his position in his apology…instead, his statements are fueling the flames that burn bridges between parties in conflict.
There is a strong US presence at the border exerting a lot of pressure on behalf of Israel.
But there is also a strong animosity between Egypt and Hamas, and Egypt and Iran/Hezbollah, which support Hamas.
Also, Gazans were taking potshots at Egyptians working on the border wall.
There is not the solidarity that many of us would like to see among all the Arabs.
Is someone was bricking me in I would be excused to take potshots at them.
But it might piss them off.
It does relate to the whole cold war in the Middle East that the American invasion of Iraq unleashed.
With Iraq becoming more and more Iran friendly, many of the American backed so called “Moderate” Arab states (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan) now feel more threatened by Iran rather than Israel. Why? Because the ruling elites of these countries viewed Iraq as an Arab bulwark against Iran (while most of the people in these countries view Iran in a positive light).
This is why you now see all three of these countries cooperating with Israel. Saudi Arabia “Okays” Israeli fighter jets to use its airspace to attack Iran, Jordan does unequal economic deals with Israel and helps train the Palestinian “Gestapo” under US General Dayton, Egypt aids Israel with the siege on Gaza etc.
In the context of this situation, Egypt views Hamas as being aligned with Iran, and also views the Muslim brotherhood in the same way. Thus they think they can starve the Palestinians further and completely destroy Hamas and bring Fatah back into Gaza, thus forcing the Palestinians to accept Fatah as their savior. From their they believe they can begin negotiations and solve the Palestinian Israeli conflict once and for all and finally divert their attention to dealing with Iran.
This is also the strategy of the realists in the State Department who view Israel as a thorn in their side. To them the longer Israel maintains its brutal occupation and refuses to come to peace with the Palestinians, the more powerful Iran will become in the region. Meaning that the United States will no longer be able to maintain a hegemonic hold over the entire region, particularly over the Persian Gulf.
Nonetheless, as nefarious as the Realists are in regards to Middle East Policy, its still a hell of a lot better than the neocon strategists that have the Presidents ear. They literally believe with dogmatic fervor that Israel is a useful “fortress” and “bulwark” against Islamofacsists hordes that seek to “threaten our way of life.” Thus we have to maintain support to Israel at all costs no matter what…
James Bradley, youre such a good thinker…I am appreciating your views…thy ‘hold water!’
I think if the Palestinians and Isrealis were given the opportunity to resolve their issues without outsiders interventions since 1949 Armistice agreements (only supervision by the UN), they could have had address their conflicts earlier. But in our real world politics this seemed to be impossible.
Yes. Indeed. Especially if the US didn’t bail out Israel everytime it did something wrong.
During such times when almost ‘everyone’ in American national leadership knew millions of Jews were butchered in Europe Holocaust. And that, when many Americans knew many of these Jews and other peoples could have been saved had they intervened earlier in WW II, any event of confusion that threathens the Jews in Middle East, would always invite American protection of the Israelis.
So Zamaaz, do we have to wait until Israelis butcher at least as many Palestinians before people like you will care about that?
RE: “I’ve yet to read anywhere an analysis about why Egypt is taking the side of the Israelis on this question.” – McConnell
MY COMMENT: I have read that very powerful pro-Israel U.S. Senator or Congressman (Howard Berman?) warned Egypt that their foreign aid (mostly military) payments from the U.S. would be terminated unless Egypt helped to keep the Gazans penned in.
RE: “I’ve yet to read anywhere an analysis about why Egypt is taking the side of the Israelis” – McConnell
MY COMMENT: I have read that very powerful pro-Israel U.S. Senator or Congressman (Howard Berman?) warned Egypt that their foreign aid (mostly military) payments from the U.S. would be terminated unless Egypt helped to keep the Gazans penned in.
ALSO SEE: “US army installs Gaza monitoring system”, Ma’an, 12/13/09 (excerpt)…But Cairo is hesitant about the second stage of the project, the installation of a steel wall underneath the borderline that Haaretz revealed earlier this week. This phase, which gained traction six months ago, is unpopular among Egyptian officials who feel pressured to go along with what they consider a purely American-Israeli initiative…
SOURCE – link to maannews.net
Like the rest of you, I have been wondering about the same thing. I think that Egypt’s hands are probably tied by the AMA (Agreement on Movement and Access) – jointly enforced by Israel, Abbas and Washington. If Israel and/or Abbas (backed by Uncle Sam’s sticks and carrots) don’t want to let the marchers in, I’m not sure what the Egyptians can do about it. Both Israel and Abbas have their motives for keeping Gaza and its government isolated, and the possiblity of blaming the Egyptians is just too tempting. Maybe the organisers should also try to make a stink in Israel, stressing that the AMA gives Israel – not Egypt – effective control over Rafah.
We who in the world are looking unto these events am asking the civil society group to publish in the internet the historical background why the people of Gaza are suffering or have suffered. All we know as an ordinary person is that these sufferings are part of continuing as unresolved conflict between Palestinians and Israel. An offshoot of the Gaza war earlier this year. If two Gaza and Israel have violently exchanged missles and bombing attacks against its other we would like to know when did it really started historically. Because the noble intent of the civil society is still covered by clouds of improprieties. Noble intents are fair and just, why only give moral suppport to the Palestinians when both sides suffered deaths? Who was the real instigator and victim of this war? Are we sure we are supporting the victim, and not the instigator? We are reluctant to offer our symphaties because we donot exactly know which side are we. We want to know the real truth that our symphaties can be expressed with clear conscience. We avoid to be part of malice against anyone in this conflict. Your right maybe not our right, nor your justice our our justice….
This doesnt answer it completely or at all, Scott, but read this:
Egypt’s President Mubarak blows his chance to behave decently
link to redress.cc
No matter how we described with the sufferings of Palestinians;
No matter how we balmed the Israelis for being cruel in this war;
No matter how we interpret the situation accusing Mubarak of Egypt for such ‘bad’ decision;
No matter how we blow our frustration and anger against Americans and other moderate Arabs nations for in one way or another allowing Israel to gain upperhand in this conflict in Gaza;
It is beyond question every person or even nations such as Israel, and Palestine have the right to defend itself or its people to survive…
The fact remains the final blame stands on the people who basically pushed these Palestinian people to ‘burn’ and suffer. Now they are in this terrible sufferings. What do we gain by blaming others? We are just making ourselves incredible…
Egypt is not cooperating for its own purposes.
They feel threatened internally, and partially by groups indirectly associated with Hamas. They don’t want to encourage civil disobedience in general.
Oh silly me! And there was me thinking the $5 billion it gets every year had something to do with it.
5 billion Shafiq? you are adding to the lack of credibility of this blog. Everyone outside of this little circle of ‘humanists’ thinks this blog is a joke because of the disinformation that is posted on here.
Funny one, yonira. You berate Shafiq for overstating the aid amount to Egypt, and at the same time insist you know what “Everyone” thinks. What a classic example of unintended irony!
My mistake. It’s $1.7 billion. The $5 billion is what Israel gets
Yonira, remember when you used to copy paste hasbara crap you find in your propaganda sites?
Shut up, the disinformation is all you try to do here.
like what aparisian?
people are able to distinguish the difference between the blog and hasbara bullshit in the comment section. pro israel posters all over the net consistently try to reinforce the idea egypt acts independently to block gaza. nobody really believes this.
The figure is more like $1.7 billion.
The USA-Israeli sock puppet Egyptian regime gets paid (by the USA) to obstruct Palestinian civil rights; with the large annual dose of US foreign aid the Egyptian puppet regime keeps itself in tyrannical power at the expense of the impoverished and oppressed Egyptian masses.
Here’s a very recent video clip–Egypt is still holding firm blockading the international Gaza peace March–on the pretext of insecurity at the border, as if that’s something not usual, not to mention the marchers said they’d take the risk.
link to docudharma.com
I mean the Egyptian regime gets paid to go along with the Israeli and USA regime’s
agenda–a precondition to Carter’s peace accords back in the day that continues; the Palestinians get fallout. It’s all about Israel.
Americans are providing know-how for the wall on the Egyptian border that would seal tunnels. Right now, with a push, even people can be transported. It means that the process of sealing off Gaza has not yet been successfully completed. Not letting demonstrators near the border is part of the same process.
Imprisoning people is very expensive, and yet necessary for control of societies.
I don’t believe that if Hamas was to resign from all the governmental positions, that Gaza would be unsealed.
Gaza is an experiment.
The experiment, sealing of Gaza, started before Hamas was voted into power. Gaza wasn’t unsealed when there was truce with Hamas and it will not be unsealed (this was announced in the last couple of days) when Gilad Shalit will be freed .
I don’t remember of one case of sanctions against country or siege against community that in modern times produced regime change. Sanctions are about weakening enemy.
Siege is about imprisoning people.
Its a military blockade, which is saving the lives of Israelis.
How is it saving the lives of Israelis Yonira? How? All the rocket attacks have been in RESPONSE to the blockade. Hamas has stated such a million times. They abide by every truce they signed, Israel has not.
Based on your logic, the Palestinians should enforce a military blockade on all of Israel proper, because it is the Israelis who threaten the Palestinians far more than the Palestinians resisting colonization, occupation, and brutality threaten the Israelis.
But James, don’t you know what a hazard pasta, toilet paper and toothpaste are! I can’t tell you how many Israelis have been killed by random lethal toothbrushes! (Well, I can’t tell you because the answer is zero.)
link to reuters.com
The walls are created to keep out suicide bombers and infiltration from Gaza. Same with the separation barrier between Israel and the WB. Both have done wonders in preventing deaths to Israels.
As for the ‘siege’, I don’t agree with it, I think the Israels should allow in more products for re-building Gaza, just like they have allowed in humanitarian goods.
FYI: Between Dec. 13 -Dec. 19 alone, 553 truckloads with 13,587 tons of merchandise reached Gaza from Israel.
The walls are created to keep out suicide bombers and infiltration from Gaza. Same with the separation barrier between Israel and the WB. Both have done wonders in preventing deaths to Israels.
Oh really? When was the last suicide bombing in Israel? Seriously? I would honestly think if any side should put up a wall its the Palestinians who are killed at a ratio of 100 civilians to ONE Israeli soldier.
Furthermore, Hamas renounced suicide bombing as a tactic, how many times must we repeat this to you. Palestinians have been able to circumvent the wall in small numbers repeatedly. If they wanted to get suicide bombers in, they could but they don’t.
Hamas calls for end to suicide bombing a tactic that led to the deaths of 398 Israeli civilians, settlers, and soldiers.
link to guardian.co.uk
As for the ’siege’, I don’t agree with it, I think the Israels should allow in more products for re-building Gaza, just like they have allowed in humanitarian goods.
Then your a liar. You do support the siege. There shouldn’t be any siege on the Gaza strip period. Secondly, Israel does not even allow the full gambit of humanitarian aid into the strip, so for you to even say that the people of Gaza are getting is disgusting and a horrid lie. Baby milk is not even allowed into the Gaza strip, nor are text books, meat, and other essentials.
FYI: Between Dec. 13 -Dec. 19 alone, 553 truckloads with 13,587 tons of merchandise reached Gaza from Israel.
Your listing an exception, an exception that had to be fought tooth and nail to get (you also forget to mention that Israel launched its invasion one day after allowing the aid in, much of it was also destroyed… whoops!).
Israel normally does not even the minimum truckload necessary to service the strip of 1.5 million people.
Here are the real numbers Yonira, don’t get it twisted.
link to gazagateway.org
I’m sorry Yonira, but its clear that your not interested in peace, when all you do is repeat the same lies over and over again no matter how many times we debunk them for you.
James, the numbers I showed were the exact numbers from the website. I already said that I don’t agree w/ the absence of building supplies etc.
As for the walls, yes there haven’t been suicide bombers because of the walls. And sorry James but i don’t believe everything Hamas says. They denounced suicide bombers because they are no longer an effective means of resistance(terrorism). The last circumvention or attempted circumvention was November 4th 2008, this is why Israel “broke” the cease fire, to protect its sovereignty and its soldiers from another attempted border infiltration and the kidnapping of soldiers.
We all know what happened after that, a continuation of rocket fire until Caste Lead. Even after Olmert’s constant warnings and pleading w/ Hamas and the Gazan people to stop the rocket fire, they didn’t and they paid the price (and a lot more).
If Hamas(Meshal) wanted the blockade ended they would accept the very generous prisoner exchange offer. He sits in Damascus and argues with the Hamas leadership in Gaza while his people that he and Hamas are responsible for pay the price.
Even after Olmert’s constant warnings and pleading w/ Hamas and the Gazan people to stop the rocket fire, they didn’t and they paid the price (and a lot more).
More lies Yonira, what pleading? Israel had killed and wounded dozens of Palestinians prior to that airstrike yet Hamas constrained itself. Furthermore, Hamas was well within its right to build whatever tunnels they wanted. It is only Israel that has made the claim that Hamas was building a tunnel into Israel.
Furthermore, Israel never lifted the blockade on Gaza which is a key part of the truce, why do you forget to mention that?
If Hamas(Meshal) wanted the blockade ended they would accept the very generous prisoner exchange offer. He sits in Damascus and argues with the Hamas leadership in Gaza while his people that he and Hamas are responsible for pay the price.
Let me get this straight? Israel is putting on a blockade on Gaza yet its Hamas’s fault? The blockade itself is ILLEGAL under international law Yonira. Israel has ZERO right to enforce such a brutal inhumane blockade on anyone. There shouldn’t even be a negotiation. Hamas has already stated a million times that they will accept ANY Two State solution based on the 1967 borders as a permanent end to the conflict. So wtf are the Israelis waiting for?
James, the numbers I showed were the exact numbers from the website.
Your point? Israel still does not allow in the minimum truckload per day necessary for basic human subsistence in the Gaza strip. Nothing you say will change that. Instead the people of Gaza rely on tunnels to smuggle humanitarian items and other essentials. Meanwhile you sit back smug in your chair defending this crime against humanity.
They denounced suicide bombers because they are no longer an effective means of resistance(terrorism). The last circumvention or attempted circumvention was November 4th 2008,
Meanwhile, Israel has yet to denounce FAR more brutal airstrikes, artillery barrages, tank incursions etc as a effective means of breaking a peoples will to resist a brutal military occupation. Furthermore, Hamas did not attempt to get suicide bombers through on November 4th, they were merely building a tunnel.
Yonira, its time you face up to the facts.
1) Israel broke the cease fire and then went on a killing spree within a month of doing so, this is not contested.
2) Israel is committing a crime against humanity by maintaining the siege.
3) Israel is brutally occupying the Palestinian people, denying them their basic human rights, and this is why the Palestinians continue to resist. They don’t hate you because your “Jewish” they hate you because of what you have been doing to them for decades.
Why can’t you fess up to that?
you got me james, i confess and repent. Long live Hamas
You do know that thousands of Palestinian workers enter Israel illegally each week, bypassing the separation barrier, and that if a suicide bomber wished to do the same he or she could do so? The separation barrier is much better at its true intended purpose of quashing Palestinian social and economic life than it is at its pretend purpose of providing “security” to Israelis.
Lawrence of Cyberia explains it here:
link to lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com
Feel free to check out the link to see the pictures of numerous Palestinians breaching the security barrier that you insist is impenetrable to suicide bombers. We really aren’t that stupid here.
So Hamas controls the WB now?
How far up his ass did he have to reach to make up these facts?
I love how you guys just post to different blogs and post it as fact, its so ridiculous. Lawrence of Cyberia has a motive to post lies, the fact that you people just lap it up is disgusting to me. Or is the Palestinian side so righteous where they will never post anything but the truth on their blogs and websites, is that only something done by the Judenreich?
I looked at his blog for about 5 minutes, ya’ll should consolidate all of the bullshit into one blog, everything is recycled between the different blogs, its ridiculous. That’s why I feel the need to only visit one of them, Mondoweiss.
Thanks, tree. This is important information. I have had this argument countless times, and have always asserted that the wall is incomplete and thus easily circumvented, but figures really help drive the point home. Of course, there are also many Palestinians with both “motive” and “opportunity” on the Israeli side of the wall, especially in Jerusalem.
yonira, you were the one who insisted the separation barrier in the WB prevented suicide bombing. When I post facts about the large number of WB Palestinians that breech the barrier every week to enter Israel you go on a tear about Hamas and accuse the Lawrence of Cyberia site(which is penned by a woman, by the way) of lying. Perhaps you didn’t like the fact that she cited the Ma’an news agencies reporting on an Israeli Channel Two report. If so, then here are a few Israeli sources for the information.
Haaretz, from 2006:
Shin Bet: Palestinian truce main cause for reduced terror
By Amos Harel
The Shin Bet’s statistics on terror attacks confirm the public perception that terrorist activity in 2005 dropped considerably compared to the previous four and a half years. The main reason for the sharp decline is the truce in the territories, the security service said yesterday.
Terrorist attacks claimed the lives of 45 Israelis last year, compared to 117 in 2004, marking a 60 percent reduction.
This is the third year in a row in which the number of terrorist acts has been reduced sharply. At the height of the intifada, in 2002, 450 Israelis were killed by terrorists. An equal number of Israelis were killed in traffic accidents in 2005. In other words, the number of terror fatalities in 2005 is less than one-tenth of the number of traffic accident fatalities.
The Shin Bet and the Israel Defense Forces attribute the reduction mainly to the improvement in their joint capability to foil terrorist attacks and to act against terrorist organizations.
The security fence is no longer mentioned as the major factor in preventing suicide bombings, mainly because the terrorists have found ways to bypass it. The fence does make it harder for them, but the flawed inspection procedures at its checkpoints, the gaps and uncompleted sections enable suicide bombers to enter Israel. </b
Cr*p. I messed up my close blockquotes again. Perhaps its time for me to go to bed. The last paragraph is mine, of course, and not a quote.
Sources of info: Israeli Channel 2 and Israel Police.
Background: The wall has never been completed, and can be bypassed by any Palestinian who really wants to (see B’tselem map, below).
Additional information: Had the intention only been to stop suicide bombings, the wall would not have been built mostly on Palestinian land, and the principles of “minimised and proportional” negative impact on the Palestinians (upheld by the Israeli High Court but ignored by the government and military) would have been respected. The International Court did not condemn the wall itself (recognising Israel’s security concerns), but the route, which causes incredible hardship to thousands of Palestinians and constitutes a de fact annexation of Palestinian lands.
For a good map, see: link to btselem.org
You’re welcome, Shmuel. Lawrence of Cyberia is a great site for rational and sourced arguments against the usual hasbara arguments. Diane Mason, the writer behind the site, is wonderfully logical and methodical in her posts. Unfortunately she has not posted anything recently, but her old posts are still to be recommended.
link to lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com
Give it up. Really, it’s no use. You can show them an article supported by several news sources. You can ask them to search for the facts themselves (just very recently I came upon a nice article about a Palestinian who was illegally working in Israel for several months. As a security guard. In a yeshiva.) It’s all useless. Orthodoxy means not thinking – not needing to think.
Gaza has been walled in for many years – long before Sharon’s unilateral “withdrawal”. Contrary to the WB, the relatively short route and type of terrain have made it extremely effective in keeping Gazans out of Israel. The far more recent and brutal siege (including the agreement with Egypt that gives Israel effective control over the Rafah crossing as well) has other purposes entirely.
FYI: Between Dec. 13 -Dec. 19 alone, 553 truckloads with 13,587 tons of merchandise reached Gaza from Israel.
Which you neglected to mention was less than 25% of amount needed.
The recently-issued human rights report, “Failing Gaza”, shows just how unrepresentative the propaganda figure cited by yonira really is:
link to amnesty.org.uk
Yonira,
You say you are against the siege, so why bend over backwards to create the false impression that it’s not so bad? You often play this kind of two-sided game here – condemning and defending at the same time. It does not do you credit.
Who ever said Hamas controls the West Bank Yonira? Is that your argument? Are you trying to put words in our mouth?
Its clear that the Palestinians can easily by pass the Israeli apartheid wall in small numbers. If the Palestinians wanted to get suicide bombers into Tel Aviv they could, but they DONT.
This is largely a result of the Palestinians abandoning suicide bombing as a means of resistance to Israeli occupation.
The wall has very little in the way to offer Israelis in security. Rather the wall has merely acted as a tool to steal even more Palestinian land and separate more Palestinians from each other, including families.
On the other hand if Israelis are brutal indeed, Hamas gave them the best cause. If Hamas has indeed stopped launching rockets to Israel, weeks ago we ‘heared some passing over our heads.’ You are absolutely right, the sufferings must stop. If no one from Gaza pulls a trigger permanently, Israelis, whether they like it or not, will have excuse not to open the gates for Gaza… Otherwise, no one in this entire world will ever ‘lift a finger’ to prevent their national ‘destruction’. Could this be not justice?
Well that’s exactly what happened! During the ceasefire, not only did Hamas stop firing rockets, it did its utmost to stop other groups from firing rockets (and was succeeding). In return, Israel was meant to open the borders. Guess what, it didn’t!
And again, nothing can be used as an excuse for what’s happening to the Palestinians in Gaza. How can 1.5 million people be punished for the actions of some amongst them? If a Palestinian blew himself up in the middle of an Israeli market as ‘justice’ for the Israeli army killing his family, would that be justified? How about seeing it from a different perspective. If Israelis are so sure Hamas is evil, why not open the gates and see whether rocket fire continues?
I find the above discussion fascinating, and continued reason to follow Mondoweiss. Informed contributors have found Israeli sources that prove the wall does not prevent Palestinians from crossing, so it cannot be credited with stopping the suicide bombings. In response, the usual defenders of the Israeli government are either strangely silent, or yelp with distracting ad hominum attacks.
Unfortunately, if you took a poll of the educated American public, the kind that reads the New York Times or similar prestige journals regularly, I’ll bet 80-90 per cent or more would say the wall stopped the attacks.
Of course, the Israelis will not open the gates immediately. After generations of distrust peace will take time to form. The greatest P.R. Hamas can do is stop the firing totally and permanently. Of course, there will always some forces that will provoke Hamas to break peace. But if they are steadfast, by faith being after quite a time, the Israelis would never be shameless not to open the gates. If they want to win , let the Palestinians ‘change court’… make them stand at the just, reasonable, and peaceable side. As long as the world can hear missles buzzling over Gaza, the credibility of Palestianians will become even worst; that even their noble sympathizers lose credibility.
In a hard core ‘chicken or egg’ situation such as this. One party must sacrifice to stop the carnage. Because if no one does, the fatal cycles of attack and retribution will never end. And while it is ‘churning’ Israelis will always win because at the beginning the International action such as the Balfour Declaration 1917, has given the Jews the ‘right to establish their homeland in Palestine without the prejudice of the settled Arabs-’that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine…’ However, that conditionality was lost because the provisions by bad fortunes, has been dishonored by the Arabs themselves through series of wars (Arab rejection of the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine, The 1948 Arab–Israeli War, The 1967 Six-Day War, and the
The 1973 Arab-Israeli (Yom Kippur War)), and provoked desperations like; the 1956 Suez Canal Crisis, and the water dispute of 1964. This is what make the strategists of Egypt, Jordan, and (somehow) Syria commendable that they were able to stop their nations ‘bleeding’ by keeping permanent distance from the conflict.
With all these unfortunate misadventures the Palestinians were waived of the original intent in the Balfour declaration. What was left in the spirit of the declaration was the right of the Israelis – ‘to establish their homeland in Palestine’. This gives a political go signal to the Israelis to expand in their territories inside Palestine and by virtue of Principle of Attrition including those within 1949 Armistice lines, and those covered after the Yom Kippur War. Now what will the Palestinians do to recover the lost opportunities due to bad Arab leadership decisions: a) according to Netanyahu’s words –‘either to support them or ram them’ b) Set in a settlement table with Israelis while there are still areas available for them, c) Open a peaceful dialogue that determines the fate of the Palestinians as a nation. Considering the character of a Jewish Nation, they must accept the two-state option. d) the Palestinians must agree among themselves as early as possible while there is still time to agree what should they do with their people that they may survive hand-in-hand with the Israelis. They must forget this irrelevant ‘national Arab pride’ and not let outside influences haze their minds. In reality, they are the only parties that can truly help themselves in this chaotic region. The others only abide through sympathy.
And those civil societies that take sides are actually fanning more the flames to this war…as they show sympathies to one, they imbitter the other party…
Please correct:
‘This is what make the strategists of Egypt, Jordan, and (somehow) Syria commendable that they were able to stop their nations ‘bleeding’ by keeping permanent distance from the conflict.’
to:
‘Lately, the later agreements are what make the strategists of Egypt, Jordan, and (somehow) Syria commendable that they were able to stop their nations ‘bleeding’ by keeping permanent distance from the conflict.’
And what about Israeli actions to make the Palestinians trust them? You’re making the Palestinians the aggressors, but who killed 1400 of the other in the past year? Who occupies the other? Which of them constituted a plan to deliberately expel hundreds of thousands of the other based on a misguided idea that the land was ‘theirs’?
It seems like you’re going through all the Hasbara talking points. Palestinians are not to blame for other Arab actions in 1947, yet they are the ones to suffer. What would become Israelis always had the plan of expelling Palestinians from the area and establishing a Greater Israel. The 67 war was started by Israel, yet it somehow managed to place the blame on Arabs and Palestinians. Suez and the 64 war were two more examples of Israeli aggression.
You’ve completely dismissed the second part of the Balfour Declaration, which the future Israelis did too. Expelling the Palestinians should invalidate the first clause of the declaration.
The solution has been on the table since 2002 – the Arab peace plan. Two states, shared capital Jerusalem, and limited right of return. All Arab states have endorsed it and so have Hamas, yet Israel is still delaying it,and building colonial outposts that are making a two-state solution less and less likely.
It’s the Israelis that need to do the talking and the actions. What does it say about them if they refuse to accept even a settlement freeze? You talk graciously about the Palestinians having to accepting a solution, but it’s the other way round. You talk graciously about the Jewish right to have a homeland, but say little about the rights of the lands’ existing inhabitants. Are they less worthy?
“What does it say about them if they refuse to accept even a settlement freeze?”
It says that they are a divided community, in which opportunists slip in their agenda and the gullible end up adopting it.
Similar to the conflict in Hamas about whether to accept 800 prisoners for one, on the condition that 80 of them reside outside of Gaza. A certain productive outcome that will facilitate the normalization that the left claims that Hamas desires. But, they vacilate.
Maybe they will accept, and move on.
Maybe they will wait for some other pressure, like the march, then allow some out of control collective emotion to screw this one up too.
A divided community? How many Israelis supported the settlement freeze? How many American Jews supported the settlement freeze?
Let’s wait and see what the outcomes of the negotiations are before attempting to make claims about them.
Why do the Israelis need to do that? they have the power and the backing of the International community. Perhaps it will change in 100 years, but is it really worth ruining that many lives? Isn’t 60 years of dreaming for something which is impossible enough? Especially when those making the decisions don’t even LIVE in Gaza?
Do they have the backing of the International Community? The UN reaction to Goldstone suggests not.
Don’t the Palestinians have the right to a homeland free from occupation and attack by other nations?
Yonira, please dont miss this point also…I do agree with your idea on the presence of the walls. These helps a lot in the alleviating the conflict. Of course, humans have always the capacity to circumvent any obstacles erected, but one thing we cannot ignore. It is a strong symbol of ‘territorial rights and authority’ for the Israelis. No one can question its governance once it stands. No one can also challenge the Israelis authority once they’r inside the walls; at the walls define the area ‘covered by the laws’ of Israel. Its psychological impact to sustain order within its territory is tremendous.
Of course they do, but Israel isn’t simply going to give it to them, there needs to be negotiations, treaties, etc. But there is no communication between the two governments in terms of negotiating any sort of settlement.
Concessions were made by Israel which weren’t perfect, but were unprecedented. Abbas needs to at least come to the table before all is lost. They are not in the position to be sticklers anymore, it hasn’t worked over the last 60 years. I know, I know it sucks, its not fair, blah blah blah, but its reality.
As for the UN, does anyone have any faith in what is done there anymore? No one cares about anything said, resolution after resolution is created and defied. When I said international community, i meant organizations and nations which were relevant.
Apart from the fact that the wall is built on Palestinian territory. If you want to build a wall, build it in your own damn land, not that of others.
For me, the wall reinforces the siege mentality of Israelis, but if they want to build a wall, let them. Maybe they could also get rid of all their outposts that are outside the wall and compensate for the land that has been stolen throught the construction of the wall.
Of course there needs to be negotiations, but who’s attempting to delay the prospect of negotiations by insisting Israel be recognised as Jewish state and insisting Jerusalem is out of bounds?
Now, I know you’re going to say that the Palestinians are insisting on a settlement freeze. But that’s different because the expanding settlements are a direct affront to any future peace deal.
As for the international community, who truly supports Israel other than the US. How many people around the world support Israel?
On the other hand, there is nothing wrong in building tunnels within the Palestinian backyard. Particularly when people were smuggling food and other basic necessities including building materials in the midst of a blockade. The trouble is, these tunnels were also used in smuggling arms, explosives, and rockets (as Israelis claimed). This arms smuggling is a manifestation otherwise of the sincerity of Palestinians leadership to sustain peace between them and Israel. And worst, such suspicion was strongly evidenced by hundreds of missiles launched against civilian populations in southern Israel. Do these missiles meant the building materials were converted into rockets? and food supplies into warheads? If I were Israel, I would consider these tunnels as components of war efforts!
Then practically for sure, these tunnels must be destroyed by any military means.
So, basically, Zamaaz takes the Witty stance:
When Jews do it, it’s okay.
When Arabs do it, it’s evil.
Color me shocked, huh.
This interesting one good initiative needs to be expounded further: ‘Hamas has already stated a million times that they will accept ANY Two State solution based on the 1967 borders as a permanent end to the conflict. So wtf are the Israelis waiting for?’, and why this initiative was ignored? This could give a chance for lasting peace! However, what I know so far, is that the ‘clinching’ point for the mutual agreement is that the Israelis wanted the formal recognition of the State of Israel; which Hamas continually refuses.
Israel refuses to formally recognize the State of Palestine. I don’t see you making a stink about that, Zamaaz.
The way the contentions between parties were being presented, the recognition of two states would come altogether, as long as BOTH parties agree. And it is expected the Israelis will recieve a lot of ‘rocks’ even from their ‘strategic friends ‘ if they would only define their ‘state’ and exclude Palestinians in the process…
So are you in favour of the seige, or against it, yonira? You’ve taken both positions on this thread. If you say that it goes too far and Israel should let in far more purely civilian goods, vital to the people of Gaza, then you imply that it is in fact not a military blockade. So which is it? Are you a humanitarian or do you support the collective punishment of Palestinian civilians in Gaza?
For a long running conflict such as this (by generations), definitely it takes a while, quite a while for peace to stabilize and become permanent. I hope we all have that patience…
Yes, it is going to take a while, but that doesn’t mean we should wait until Israel decides to end the siege and get rid of its colonies in the West Bank. Patience can’t be used as a guise for doing nothing to confront injustice.
Collective – because as to concepts of nations, the leaders are embodiment of all the people. If the leader makes a ‘sin’ everybody suffers. This is a sad reality, but nonetheless, a reality…
The only problem with that is it’s illegal under international law. Should every German suffer for the actions of the Nazis? That makes no sense whatsoever. If a Palestinian never committed a crime, why should he/she pay for the crime? How can one justify Israel making them pay for a crime they didn’t commit?
Have you not seen, almost all the major cities of Germany was bombed into rubbles in WWI and WWII. What else you want to see?
Have you not remembered more than a million Germans soldiers died on the wheatfields of Russia in WW II? Don’t you think the Russian would shoot them like ‘wild geese’ without such bad Nazi leadership decisions? Each of this dead soldier has family hoping and lovingly waiting for them to return home as they were.
Do you think the grief of those hungry war refugee German families are different or lesser from the griefs of suffering Palestinians now?
Were the German people starved of food and medicine? Were they denied the right to an education?
During the war, were Germans denied exit from Germany? NO.
And were these actions justified? No.
Are ordinary Palestinians, soldiers?
Was collective punishment made illegal under International Law? Yes. Yet you justify it as if it’s acceptable.
Two words, Zamaaz: Marshall Plan. Those German families stayed neither hungry nor refugees for long. And maybe you forget the horrible conditions that were imposed on Germany after WW1 that contributed to the degradation of German society and made an opening for the Nazis to seize power in the first place? Put down the Bible and pick up a history book once in a while. Forgive me for being curmudgeony, but it’s the holidays, I’m tired, and I’m getting really sick about having to give lectures like this over and over and over again.
I am against ‘seige’, I think the Gazans should have an opportunity to rebuild after Cast Lead.
At the same time there needs to be some sort of safe-guards to prevent anything nefarious from being brought in.
yonira: At the same time there needs to be some sort of safe-guards to prevent anything nefarious from being brought in.
Setting aside the issue of preventing (or at least not actively aiding) “nefarious” things from entering Israel, that is obviously not the (sole) purpose of the current blockade, which you have wrongly called “military”.
There is another issue however, recognised in international and even Israeli law, and that is proportionality and the need to minimise negative impact on a civilian population, of actions taken for security reasons. The hardships imposed on the civilian population of Gaza (over 50% children, I remind you) cannot possibly be justified, legally or morally, by the need to prevent the Hamas government or renegade militia from obtaining material that might also be used for the manufacture of primitive weapons (with all due sympathy for the plight of civilians in Sderot).
Glad to hear you are against the current siege. Now you can stop defending it, and maybe even join us in protesting against it.
Collective punishment should be view in context. It is fundamentally not legal in whatsover normal democractic society, but in a state of conflict or war…such right does not exist in reality. Shrapnels fly ‘to whom it may concern’. Bomb blasts choose no one; civilians, soldiers, soldiers in civilian clothes,, medical personnel, etc…
In this situation where the Palestinians and Israelis are in war, we cannot consider it collective punishment. This is the tragedy of war.
Collective punishment is illegal during war and peace time. Judging by your flawed logic, rockets are perfectly fine because they are simply ‘tragedies of war’. Deliberately attempting to starve a population is illegal and morally reprehensible. Laying siege to an area/city/town was a tactic used in medieval times,it’s not acceptable in the 21st century.
The Germans admirably showed their sincerity for stopping the war. After the bitter confrontations and the guns were silent in Europe, they were totally silent. History books have not mentioned guns were booming, clashes were recurring nor V2s were flying overhead again. Perhaps because the Germans formally surrendered. In this case in Palestine, there was no surrender nor recapitualtin. Ceasefire was implemented last week, rockets were launched again this week…Peace in Palestine was periodically intended only to rebuild capacity for wage future attacks. Who sensible person would believe there is peace? There is belligerence and practically blockade or harassments will continue.
Or on the other hand, the longer the Palestinians fight, the more time they are allowing Israelis to build settlements in said areas…Now it appears that the expansion of settlements at the West Bank is basically one important leverage in the contentions between Palestinians and Israelis. And the more the Plaestinians are losing patience, the more they are losing justice. The situation is similar to the story titled Daniel Webster and the Devil – which Webster gained final victory only in the trial against the Devil when he approached the debate calmly, and soothingly positive.
Zamaaz? The Palestinians fight, the Israelis expand their illegal settlements. The Palestinians negotiate, the Israelis expand their illegal settlements. If any Israeli in the government even threatens to talk start talking sense, like Rabin, they’ll get assassinated and replaced by extremists, like Sharon and Netanyahu.
Neville Chamberlain learned quite painfully that you don’t earn peace through appeasement. Your rants into history have proven to be decidedly spotty thus far.
From: Just Foreign Policy (naiman@justforeignpolicy.org)
Sent: Wed 12/23/09 5:30 PM
Just Foreign Policy News
December 23, 2009
Just Foreign Policy News on Break Until January 6
The editor of the JFP News is going to Gaza for the Gaza Freedom March – if the Egyptians let us in.
[The Egyptian government has announced that it will not allow internationals to enter Gaza. Write the Egyptian Embassy in Washington and ask them to reverse the decision - link to justforeignpolicy.org
]
If Egypt does not let us enter Gaza, we will protest the blockade from the Egyptian side of the border. In either event, you can follow our progress by blog here –
link to bit.ly
and by Twitter here: @naiman.
You do that, and the Egyptians will go rich from processing fees in US dollars or in Euros in releasing you from incarceration by violating their laws…
Yes, I’m sure Ghandi and MLK violated some laws too. Egypt shouldn’t have the right to decide who goes in and out of Gaza.
Ghandi was for a just, reasonable, and non-violent cause; whatever. For sure it was the British decision not to put him in prison. In this case the Egyptian government decided otherwise, let us honor their right to govern too.
“For sure it was the British decision not to put him in prison. In this case the Egyptian government decided otherwise, let us honor their right to govern too.”
Poles, Jews, Gipsies, homosexuals and communists amongst us may recall that during Second World War decision by German people to honor their government right to govern didn’t turn out too well for us.
Zamaaz, have you considered that maybe following orders and honoring right to govern is not always a moral decision?
Eva,
I am still waiting for a post where you don’t mention WWII.
Yes, sadly this is one irony of governance. One wrong choice of leadership and most citizens will be dead! I think there was only one vote difference in Bundestag (?) that made Hitler a Chancellor…and the rest is history of ghettos, massacres, progroms, assasinations, gassing, deaths, etc…
And usually we only realize that when we are counting the victims, the dead and those missing persons…
And the difference between Germany and Egypt is that the Egyptian people didn’t vote for their government.
The ‘same’ with Iran, that is why we are expecting some more sorrows in other parts of the regions particularly as Palestine and Lebanon in the future…
Yonira,
We’re still waiting for a post in which you don’t pass up an opportunity to take snipes at people rather than talking about the actual subject matter.
Besides, mistakes in leadership if there was one, remind me of the two kinds of ‘sins’ as taught in Catechism; ‘Sin of commission, and sin of omission.’ Either of the two makes the people accountable to their leadership. Whether the people voted or not, the mere existence of these leaders in the government shows the fact the people allowed them; and this is one sad reality.
Because you are by thousands, the Egyptian government being in fiscal difficulties themselves, cannot afford to have aircons, and serve sandwiches in prisons…for sure, wanting to be free from desert heat you will willing to pay hefty sums.
What on earth is wrong with you?
A butt-f**k religious loon.
Perhaps what is wrong with me is the desire to take courage and look at the ugly side of reality…
You can start looking at it any time now, zamaaz. We’re waiting.
What shall we look beyond? More sufferings? More death? because we refused to consider other reasons. I know we are all bitter to this conflict, but the more we are bitter they more the sufferings…If this war continues indefinitely was it not because our hearts are clouded with hatred beyond reason. Between Palestinians and Jews, this war is not only grounded on issues of land, but by our religious character as well. On this matter, one thing I cannot understand is that we believe we are in the right faith, yet we do things impulsively against the character of Him whom we worship.
Zamaaz, the problem is that this war is not between Palestinians and Jews — once upon a time, the Jews in Palestine were (and ostensibly still are) Palestinians.
This is a war between colonial European Zionist invaders and an indigenous population that is being assaulted with crimes against humanity.
All this “let’s look forward” bullshit isn’t going to stop what’s going on right now in Gaza and East Jerusalem and the Negev. Because ultimately, you’re not asking us to look forward — you’re asking us to look away.
You know Chaos4700? while we are debating on theses issues for a while, I was thinking this debate is going nowhere to be productive and sensible. As anger, contempt, and hatred prevail even among ourselves; this only suggest we are not capable of achieving peace. No wonder this war does not end, and peace cannot be seen on horizon…
I think there is no such hope in this debate…
Then get the fuck out of the way, if you’re a “Christian” who doesn’t believe in peace and justice. You’re dead weight, zamaaz.
Zamaaz,
There is no debate. All you do is repeat the same Hasbara mantra. Israelis good. Arabs bad.
Israelis want peace – Palestinians are intransigent
Israel must be allowed to defend itself – Palestinians can’t or they’re limiting their chances of peace
You remind me of the horrid Golda Meir phrase “We will never forgive you for making us kill your children?” – I mean wtf? How can killers make themselves the victim?
I am sorry If I was read that way. I donot intend to suggest ignoring the present situations. These are painful indeed. My point is, as opportunities are becoming short, we need to rethink fast and much broader; perhaps this bitter war is continuing because we are insisting on an approach or views that would not lead us to peace…It appears we need sit down again and take some more, another second look, at ourselves, our enemies, and the whole world around us. Because if there was nothing wrong among us, we could have had attain earlier, agreements that can lead us to another level towards lasting peace…This conflict has been running since 1948, and the Palestinians people had been suffering tremendously for sixty years now.
There you go again – you accuse us of wanting to force our view on everyone, but it’s you who places the blame on the Palestinians. Didn’t you imply it was the Palestinians who need to give all the concessions and hope Israel gives them a good peace deal?
The peace deal is obvious – Two equal states, Jerusalem a shared capital. Hamas and other groups given a choice: disband or merge their fighter wing into the future Palestinian army and make their political wing into a political party. Israel gets rid of its settlements apart from the ones closest to the border (provided the Palestinians are compensated with land of equal quality), Illegal settlers given a choice: go back to Israel or renounce their Israeli citizenship for Palestinian citizenship and they can stay. Limited right of return to keep Israel Jewish but give the Palestinians a sense of closure over the Nakba.
Then what will make it stop? Bullets?
Nice Shafiq, I couldn’t agree more.
Yes, though I have no complete knowledge about territorial details in this area. However, as one Hamas proposal mentioned the 1967 borders, and other documents the Camp David Agreement, I think your position offers a lot of opportunities to achieve. However, how I wished you to qualify further the word ‘equal’. As perhaps my views could be different: 1) In terms of territories they cannot be equal based on past/historical circumstances as practised according to international conventions. This includes the government control over Jerusalem. This demand cannot be enforced as option or decision lies on the current occupying country. It is for Israel to refuse or abide through goodwill ; 2) the demand to equalliy organize respective armed forces becomes irrelevant as each parties are expected to have armed forces as part of right to self-determination (as the two conflicting parties become separate individual states after the recognition of two states). This is also in accordance to international laws. 3) Israel definitely has to move back in conformity to what is concluded by both parties relative to abovementoned previous agreements, 4) ‘Equality’ of land becomes irrelevant also, as these lands were predetermined to the areas previously alienated through previous agreements, 5) I donot know how Israel should compensate where in fact they would be relinquishing the lands involved. 6) Illegal Jewish settlers would certainly encouraged to go back to Israel, for that is part of their rebuilding of the Jewish Nation, 7) Closure rights would also become irrelevant inasmuch as this becomes a right of the covering state.
So if we look at your propositions , almost all demands becomes given (or moot and academic), and nothing requires significant change or make hard to achieve. What significantly remains is both parties to rationally accept limitations, agree, and give peace a change.
Dont waste your breath telling us that, zamaaz; no amount of our sitting down is going to affect the situation in Gaza. Tell the Israelis. It’s not me who needs the lecture. So put the baton down for the grand Christian symphony; it’s not Him that I worship anyway.
This can be solved with justice.
link to arabnews.com
Words can’t begin to describe my utter disgust of Egypt. The entire nation flipped out over a lost football match, but they sit on their asses while Gazans are starved and killed.
Maybe they’ll wake up when Israel beats them in football, but until that day, eff them.
They need to be treated like pariahs.
On the First Anniversary of the Israeli-U.S. Massacre, the People of Gaza Need Your Solidarity
From: International Action Center (actioncenter@action-mail.org)
Sent: Thu 12/24/09 11:31 PM
*Support the 3rd Viva Palestina Convoy and the Gaza Freedom March
*Call, Email the Egyptian Embassy
*Join Local Solidarity Actions
People from around the world are seeking to break the blockade. The third Viva Palestina convoy led by British MP George Galloway departed London Dec. 5 with 200 people, 64 truckloads of humanitarian aid and 16 ambulances. The convoy grew as it crossed Europe, Turkey, Syria and Jordan to a tumultuous popular welcome. They are now up to 500 people and 210 vehicles–50 from Turkey alone. Some participants have come from as far as Malaysia. They plan to cross into Egypt today and enter Gaza on Dec. 27. You can learn more about their exciting journey at www.vivapalestina.org
Two days later the 1,300 participants of the Gaza Freedom March, including Pulitzer-winning author Alice Walker and Pink Floyd musician Roger Waters also plan to march through the gates. They will also carry humanitarian aid, including school ssupples and winter jackets for Gaza’s children. You may follow their progress at www.gazafreedommarch.org
The International Action Center urges full support for both delegations, Viva Palestina and Gaza Freedom March and encourages people to be on alert to step up support and pressure on the Egyptian Gov, Isarel and especially the U.S. who pulls the strings and controls the entire region as these 2 historic delegations attempt to enter into Gaza.
URGENT: CALL, EMAIL THE EGYPTIAN EMBASSY
The Egyptian state, however, which receives large sums of miltary aid from Washington, has said it will close the Rafah crossing through the rest of December and January. It is important that people of good will contact Egyptian embassies and missions all over the world hear by phone, fax and email with a clear message: Let the international delegation enter Gaza.
In the U.S., contact the Egyptian Embassy, 202-895-5400 and ask for Omar Youssef or email – omaryoussef@hotmail.com
Also contact Ahmed Azzam at the Palestine Division in Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Cairo, tel +202-25749682 Email – ahmed.azzam@mfa.gov.eg
A list of Egyptian missions around the world may be found at –
link to mfa.gov.eg
A list of other local actions is on the Gaza Freedom March Web site. – link to gazafreedommarch.org
In law in whatever nation, everyone is ‘equal’, it does not respect whether you are an ex-convict, a nobel prize or pulitzer price winner, or an ex-president.
Is the Wall safe? Just look at what a man carrying an axe was able to do:
link to thehasbarabuster.blogspot.com
Here is what i just received from Viva Palestine convoy
Egypt ask them to get a permission from Israel!!!!!!! The puppet needs a permission from the absolute evil
Well folks, as you awake today from your Christmas hangover, over 500 people from 20 countries, in 250 vehicles loaded with Humanitarian Aid, are left stranded in Aqaba, Jordan, having been refused permission to enter Egypt.
The Egyptians have placed 3 conditions on the convoy if it wants to enter Egypt.
1. We hand all our vehicles and aid over to UNRA.
2. We drive 500 miles abck to Syria, and take a 24 hour ferry through the Suez Canal.
3. We have to ask Israel for permission to cross from Egypt to Gaza.
All 3 conditions have been flatly rejected by everyone on the convoy, as we want to cross into Gaza and hand our aid over to the Palestinians ourselves.
Would you phone Canada to ask permission to enter the US? Would you ask France for permission to go to Germany? For the 1st time, Egypt have now openly admitted that they are under control of Israel/US.
This has been the lead story on Al Jazeera for the past 24 hours, and there are media teams from all over the Arab world here in Aqaba following this story. Needless to say, everyone watching is totally outraged by Egypt’s complicity with Israel/US in denying this convoy of aid to reach Gaza.
Yesterday, Christmas Day, I dressed up as Santa to lighten the mood, and everyones sprirts lifted.
Al Jazeera interviewed Santa, who explained that the children in Gaza were the only ones in the whole world who didn’t recieve any presents. Santa explained that while flying through the air on his sleigh with the reindeers, he was stopped and refused entry. Santa was upset as this was the only place in the world he could not visit. I will post the clip whenever I get it from Al Jazeera.
Tomorrow marks the 1 anniversary of the start of the 22 day massacre of over 1,400 people. In solidarity, we are all going to embark on a fast. We will all fast for as long as it takes for us to get into Gaza with our aid.
We are calling on people all over the world to fast with us, and with the Palestinians, who fast every day due to the illegal siege imposed upon them by Israel/US/Egypt.
It’s time to take a stand and say “Enough Is Enough”. This siege has got to stop, for the sake of humanity.
I am calling on ALL the members of the “Ireland To Gaza” Group to call the Egyptian Embassy and demand that we be allowed to enter Gaza, and deliver our aid.
The contact details for the Egyptian Embassy in Dublin are: +353-1-6606718 / +353-1-6606566 / consular@embegyptireland.ie
The contact details for the Egyptian Embassy in London are: 0044-20-7499-3304 / eg.emb_london@mfa.gov.eg”
Please contact them, and express your outrage at their refusal to allow Humanitarian Aid into Gaza, and to let them know that you will never travel to Egypt again, as long as they are the lap dogs for Israel/US.
Please forward this message on to everyone you know, and invite them to join this group. Plus, please leave a message of support for everyone who is stranded here in Aqaba, and for the Palestinians who need our support now, more than ever.
John Hurson
Stranded in Aqaba, Jordan
The first two (1 nd 2) requirements may not be categorical to one’s view, but the third (3) is definitely must because you are entering a ‘war zone’. The appealant needs to ask permission from both warring parties. Otherwise one will welcome and the other (or at worst, both) will shoot you.
So why doesn’t anyone have to ask permission from Hamas before entering Israel?
There are various levels of conflict. This one is a very low intensity conflict. Like two agruing people shaking hands for peace with right hands, while both left hands are holding daggers, waiting for a chance or reason to stab the other.
No Zamaaz, this is not a very low intensity conflict.
This is starvation at concentration camp with intermittent massacres on population where over 50 % are children.
These are not two people holding daggers, and painting a picture where both sides appear equal is utterly dishonest. Dress in a elk hide, pick some pine cones for weapons and go fighting elk hunters during the hunting season. That should open your perspective.
The intensity of conflict is usually viewed in terms of intensity of violent or agressive exchanges, contacts, or incidents . This one has already ebbed low, but what remains now is widespread sufferings among the surviving Palestinians and Israelis…
‘Equality’ in a war situation is quite confusing. We cannot require both combatant to measure their attacks to have equal damages on both sides.
And the effect of damage among survivors cannot be measured in terms of numbers; one, two, or thousands of them that suffers, are equally tragic and sorrowful. The only difference is the advantage one has achieved over the other. Yet the sorrow can never be compensated.
There was certainly no “equality” in the massacre (not war) Israel perpetrated in Gaza. Equality (at least in terms of fundamental rights) is however, a sine qua non for lasting peace. As the Rabbis of the Talmud (and many others throughout history) said: “Without justice there can be no peace” (Tractate Peace).
Correction: Tractate Derekh Eretz Zuta, Chapter on Peace
I don’t know why you’re all wasting so much time explaining rudimentary basics to this idiot. He or she has been making every far-fethced excuse (from claiming the Egyptian government knows better than everyone else what is good and what isn’t), to justifying collective punishment because it has happened in the past. At no point has zamaaz ever expressed sympathy for Gaza or its people, instead continuosly repeating Zionist hasbara.
You’re right, Mohammad. When s/he first appeared, a discussion of “racism by Scripture” seemed in order. Now it’s just a matter of something or other in all of her/his spamming triggering an immediate response. Certainly not worth more than 30 seconds’ effort.
On the plus side, although I learn nothing from “zamaaz,” I do learn a lot from the responses of Shmuel and others to s/he. So your efforts are not at all wasted.
I hope that you learn of the utter communication disconnect between the left and the moderate world.
The hope of a mass movement to force some nearly inevitably temporary change of status for Gaza is a fantasy.
By nearly inevitably, I mean that so long as ANYONE in Hamas or any faction in Gaza attempts to import arms used in any way for offensive purposes, the legal status of war remains, and during war Israel might have a legal right to conduct a blockade, especially given that Gaza is not participating in any sovereign state currently.
That is not “advocacy for the siege”. The oppossite. It is an effort to conceive a way that the blockade and border restrictions may be relaxed and/or lifted.
Rational PROPOSAL is needed, not decibels. Even if it puts you into the position of thinking of what works for Israel temporarily.
To me it sounded a lot like advocacy for the siege, but nevermind. Who decides what kind of arms, if any, Hamas is allowed to import? Who gets to check? On what legal basis does Israel get the right to conduct a blockade? On what moral basis is such a siege justified? Are Palestinians allowed to defend themselves? If not, who will defend them?
These are questions that should have been answered in this past year – they haven’t.
I believe that there are reasons that the components of the “siege” are rational, legal, and that the task of dissent is NOT to complain about the results of the components, but actually to attempt to redesign that relationships so that the siege is both unnecessary and that there are mutually acceptable alternatives to it.
To just push straight ahead and ignore the reasons, are a nearly inevitable failure, and invocation of war in the process of that failure.
The components of the “siege” are threeforld:
1. Management of Egyptian borders, who and what crosses the frontier with Egypt.
2. Management of Israel’s borders, who and what crosses the frontier with Egypt.
3. Management of sea borders, who and what passes into and out of Gaza by sea.
The management of Egypt’s borders are Egypt’s business. The management of Israel’s borders are Israel’s. Whether you call them closing or restricting those borders a “siege” is irrelevant.
I’ve personally attempted to cross the Gaza borders from Egypt and from Israel on four occassions (a long time ago). On two of the four, the borders were closed due mostly to religious holidays. It was Egypt’s right and it was Israel’s right to close those borders on those days, regardless of what my needs were.
The only question of siege and potential illegality revolves around the sea access. Currently, Hamas is in a declared state of war with Israel, confirmed by periodic shelling of civilian centers by Hamas. While you might dismiss the rockets as “firecrackers”, they are not. That they have killed so few is a blessing to all concerned, luck.
Israel currently allows NO transfers into Gaza by sea. It would be preferable if the Gaza port could evolve to a legal transfer site, abiding by international law of the seas. With the state of war between Hamas and Israel, I don’t see that relaxing.
Yes, it is a fundamental question. Do we seek reconciliation? or Do we seek victory?
And, YES, the civilians of Gaza get caught in the middle. And, YES, both the powers that be in Israel, and the powers that be in Hamas, accept that status or else they would change.
I personally believe that Hamas is a greater cause of that relationship, in NOT permanently and unequivocally accepting the state of Israel (and also permanently and unequivocally accepting the state of Palestine as constitutionally constructed.)
I’ve proposed that dissent agitate for an international body to oversee the Gaza port, but that has fallen on deaf ears.
I get that dissent wants to express solidarity with Gazan Palestine, and that why should they not determine their own port management?
That sounds good, but practically, that position STOPS the opening of the Gaza port t0 legitimate trade. If you want to hold out for that outcome, that is your choice, a BAD one for Gazan civilians.
An organizing point for Hamas, but at the expense of Gazan civilians. From polls that I’ve read, most Gazans conclude that Hamas’ hardline positions have hurt them.
So there is no legal basis for blockading sea-access to Gaza? You certainly haven’t given the moral argument in support for the siege/blockade.
You then go into Witty-speak, which no-one other than yourself understands. What’s “Yes, it is a fundamental question. Do we seek reconciliation? or Do we seek victory?” meant to mean?
You then blame Hamas for the situation. Tell me, which one has the power to ease the suffering of the people of Gaza, but refuses to do so? Which one abided by the truce in the hope that the siege would end?
Has Israel recognised a Palestinian state? Israel couldn’t even recognise the results of the 2005 election, yet Hamas must recognise Israel or be blamed as the instigator of this conflict?
So kindly spare us the “proactive” bullshit. The problem is Israeli collective punishment, not legitimate security concerns. Were Israel to agree to any sort of reasonable monitoring solution, dissent would disappear in a flash.
Innocent people are suffering and dying, Mr. Witty! Join the protest, or get out of the way.
There is a legal substantiation for the blockade of Gazan waters.
That is that Gaza is part of no state, and currently does endeavor to be so, and does not submit to Israeli administration nor Egyptian. And, that the history Gazan Hamas policy IS a state of war.
If it wishes to declare that it has NO intentions of any military action against Israel, by rocket-fire, guerilla, abduction, and demonstrating that by action, then maybe it will be believed.
Currently, pressuring for a change in status is pressure-cookering, with no valve.
This is the FIRST this plan has been mentioned here.
It IS a negligence of the dissenting community to not present it publicly, and continue to urge privately that the plan be applied in a way that Israel could consent to.
The protest as currently described accompanies condemnation of Israel’s existence, and functional advocacy for Hamas’ negligence, which I won’t join in.
I would sign on a non-rhetorical recommendation to establish third-party management of a Gaza port.
So you’re using the fact that the Palestinians are in legal limbo over the status of their state, to legally justify the Israeli blockade? Gaza is meant to be part of a Palestinian state, which has been recognised by 160 countries including Russia and China. Hamas is meant to make up at least part of the government.
I’m pretty sure that Hamas would dispute your claim. I’m pretty sure it’s intention is not war against Israel, but the defence of Palestinians against attacks by Israel.
And again, I don’t understand the context in which you say your last sentence.
So, to clarify Witty’s positon:
When Egypt blocks Israeli traffic from using the Straits of Tiran, that is an unconscionable act of war.
When Israel completely blockades everything from going in and out of Gaza, to the point where thousands of smuggling tunnels have to be built just to allow basic survival and to the point where the UN and literally dozens of NGOs are screaming to get attention to just how bad the humanitarian crisis is in Gaza… that’s “legal.”
So to summarize: When Arabs do it, it’s evil. When Jews do it, it’s good.
Pretty much all of Witty’s arguments boil down to that, don’t they?
To quote Yasser Arafat, Richard: Go drink from the Gaza sea. The focus of protests is to end this brutal siege that is costing innocent lives every single day. Check out Code Pink and the GFM – spearheading the protests. The human rights report I quoted from was posted here by Phil. You just chose not to read it. That report, by the way, also calls Hamas to task and in no way “condemns Israel’s existence”.
The context is the negligence of the left (at least here) to coherently argue for that temporary solution, to relieve the emergency status.
Again, I contest that Hamas DESIRES Gazan suffering, and that the left does in many ways as well, so that it can gain street cred, as appalling and cynical as that sounds.
In a condition that requires its willing compromise, it refuses. The Shalit negotiations are a case in point. They keep it alive. Israel has agreed to release individuals that it prior stated it would never release, so long as they don’t settle in Gaza. Hamas has refused.
Sure, they have moral arguments to support their position, but the difference between those moral arguments and reality is incidental compared to the restoration of the status quo relations.
The Shalit status is critical in the eyes of Israelis and confirms to them, Hamas’ intent as permanently aggressive. That Hamas resents that they may be affected by Israeli public opinion is a tragedy.
What the hell are you talking about, Richard? Scroll up and read the letter that started this thread. Read the large number of comments here discussing the siege and its excesses, the suffering caused by it, the evils of collective punishment, the fact that it goes well beyond Israel’s security concerns. Keep on lying to yourself and us. Hide behind your proactive fiction. Blame some imaginary left you have created out of whole cloth here. Then lay claim to your superior morality and evolved humanism. You are a sham Mr. Witty.
Oh! Oh! So now the left, by tirelessly having marches to end the occupation and to call for war crimes by Israelis to be punished, suddenly we’re the ones who want the Palestinians to suffer. And not, you know, assholes like YOU who actually WANT the blockade and the starvation and the ethnic cleansing and all that.
Fuck you, Witty. Fuck you and your little Zionazi judenreich Disneyland and your attempts to make white phosphorous, administrative detentiona and Israeli lebensraum out to be some form of “humanism.”
You’re the one who wants Gazan children to starve and suffer and be crippled and die, Witty. YOU are the one who rallied for military action against Gaza.
Witty, you’re a disgrace.
He’s a ShamWow, Shmuel. (“As Seen on TV!”) He soaks up Zio/Likud stains, spills and leaks, and squeezes the dirty liquid out here.
And General McArthur once said; ‘A good war is better than bad peace.’ We should take notice also that almost the whole world is suffering for such a bad peace in Palestine.
That’s “peace” to you, Zamaaz? What Israel is doing to the Palestinians is considered “peace” to you? Seriously? How do you characterize what Germany was doing to Poland way back when? “Trade expansion?” “Economic stimulus?”
Thank you very much Richard Witty for such balanced recapitulation that virtually moderated our opposite and polarized views. I hope by that way you’ll help this venue more, in this debate…That kind of presentation would help much other viewers weight more accurately over contesting opinions.
Witty and you had polarised views? Your posts are exactly the same – faux compassion mixed with blind support of Israeli actions.
Richard: A question. Do you visit pro-Israel, pro-Likud websites and raise the same kinds of objections to them that you spend all day doing here? If not, why not? You purport to be somewhere in the middle; shouldn’t you be trying to get them to examine their assumptions just like you say you are doing with us?
The only thing that kept me from “laughing out loud” when I read zamaaz’s comment was the fact that my wife would think I’d gone nuts. Good lord. I had just been commenting to myself that zamaaz sounded just like Witty, except he writes even worse, something I didn’t know was possible.
This, btw, is the strength that ignorance gives to Witty’s position. Many Americans just reflexively assume (subconsciously or not) that the Israelis are the good guys and so anyone who mouths platitudes about being pragmatic and also having compassion for the Palestinians automatically sounds like a well-intentioned person who tries to see both sides of the issue. That’s really all it takes–say you sympathize with the Palestinians and you can then justify Israeli war crimes and still be regarded as a peace advocate. Tom Friedman has built part of his career as a pundit on this trick.
Actually, Richard does argue with Likud types over at “Realistic Dove”. This is probably why he sees himself as the sane centrist, embattled by crazy people on both sides.
Though the crazed Likudists at “Realistic Dove” seem to feel affection for him.
Donald: I looked at Realistic Dove, and you are right. Richard does argue with Likudniks, principally with one Bill Pearlman, who appeared frequently on Mondoweiss in the early days. I wonder why he never shows that side of himself here?
Actually, I think he’s consistent in his own way–if you read him carefully over there and here his position is this–
1. Hamas is bad. (Sometimes he modifies this slightly, distinguishing between Hamas as a social services group and Hamas as a terrorist group. This is not unreasonable as far as it goes.)
2. Zionism is good, but only Richard’s non-expansionist form, not the Likud form. (Non-expansionist, of course, is a relative term. Relative to 1948, for instance.) All the sins of Zionism are placed on the shoulders of the Likudists, Irgun, the Stern Gang, the rightwingers in general. But he is critical to some degree of settlements both at Realistic Dove and here.
3. The Goldstone Report is to be taken as “information”, not as “authority”, to use his own bizarro world language. By this he means “Okay, maybe a few Israeli soldiers got out of hand or maybe the rules of engagement need to be modified a bit to cut down on the civilian deaths next time Israel has to go bomb those evil terrorists, but let’s not go crazy with the war crimes talk.” That’s liberal by Realistic Dove commenter standards.
4. Palestinian terrorism is pure evil, unlike Israeli killing, which is careless.
5. The far left (i.e., anyone harsher on Israel than Witty), Hamas, and Likud are the reason there’s not peaceful solution. Sometimes I think he’d assign the level of guilt in that order.
As a self-styled humane Zionist truth teller between the two extremes, Witty is critical of the Zionist right over at Realistic Dove and critical of all the lefty suicide bombing apologists he imagines are running around loose in the comments section here.
I would add another point to the Witty doctrine: 6) Israelis are basically good, but touchy. You shouldn’t anger them by protests or even using by strong language. You should talk calmly to them, and after awhile they will see the merit in your argument, dismantle the settlements, and quickly reach a two-state solution using the Arab League proposal as a starting point.
He ignores the truth of that great American civil rights leader, Frederick Douglass: “Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never has and it never will.” If we followed Witty instead of Douglass, we would still be talking nicely to the southern secessionists.
That’s true–in fact, your number 6 is one of the most important points in the Witty doctrine. I touched on it very indirectly in point 5–he can’t stand the far left precisely because they are in violation of your point 6. This is why the “far left” is regularly lumped in with Hamas suicide bombers and the Zionist far right in his list of demon figures.
Excellent analysis of the Witty doctrine.
I’m honored that you think that I have a deliberate methodology to fighting militant exageration of options.
Its odd that you would analyze it in that way, and then retain the “discipline” to define my comments over months. I understand that on your end, it is an effort to dismiss the content, which is a tragedy, as you then ignore truths, even if your conclusion as to the observations are different than mine.
I don’t have a demon list. I have a metric of practical strategy towards some identifiable end.
The criticism of the left (here) is of:
1. Absence of clear and consented goal
2. Absence of coherent pragmatic strategy
There are many abstract goals stated, mostly some form of “absence of injustice is justice”, which is a basis of some action theoretically, but usually ends up with unintended consequences as the implied goal is not actually a goal, and is pragmatically an impossibility (as absence of conflict, absence of injustice, perfection by some definition, is an impossibility).
The common attitude is of anger, and the then chosen strategy to express that is BDS, as acceptable in this space. Phil can not be seen, and likely will not personally endorse overt violence, particularly against civilians. BDS is a sufficiently militant (angry) form of expression, much moreso than skillful conversation and actual disciplined organization. The virtue of Code Pink is that it is ad hoc, but that is also its greatest failing as any clarification of goal over an extended period depends on who is in the room, and not on coherent and tested goals and strategy.
Please read of the life of Frederick Douglas. To reduce his efforts, his strategy, to solely militancy, is to MISREPRESENT his work.
Again, in the effort to fight Jim Crow, the critical work that really changed things was by people like Thurgood Marshall, Phillip Randolph and others. They were determined more than militant, skillful more than loud.
Militant exaggeration? How many times has someone stated what the intended goal is? How many more times do you need to hear it?
What is you coherent strategy? Browbeat the Palestinians into conceding everything and hope the Israelis leave them alone? The BDS movement has a specific aim – to remind Israel that its actions have little support in the International community and if they don’t want to end up a pariah state, they need to start talking and acting like they want peace.
After 60 years of giving into every Israeli demand, a new strategy is needed – pressure. The Gaza freedom march has several aims: 1) to relieve the acute shortages of food and medicine suffered by the people of Gaza, 2) to remind them that they’re not alone, 3) to show the world how inhumane the siege is.
Your argument appeals to anger, but not to reason.
The definition of Palestinian goals remain vague. The definition of BDS goals remain vague. The strategy remains vague.
If they were clear, EVERY Palestinian, EVERY Palestinian solidarity, EVERY Israeli if asked would if asked state, “Palestinian goals are ….”.
That isn’t what occurs now. Even those involved in the discussion for years wonder, “What are Palestinian goals?”, “What are Hamas goals?”, “What is BDS goals?”
You are asserting merely. The same lack of clarity exists in Israel certainly. Both societies are deeply split.
They get more split by 11th hour precipice politics, by escalation before clarity.
Criticism of strategy is fine with me. I don’t know if BDS will work–there was maybe a chance Obama could have pressured Netanyahu into doing something, but it turns out that Obama had no guts for the job and he ended up making things worse. He’s become a joke. The Israelis, judging by the Kershner article on Christmas, have embraced arrogance and war crimes as the proper means to handle Palestinians, not that there is anything new about this. The discussion in mainstream US circles has been dominated by people who think like you, Richard, and I don’t think it’s an accident that Israel has been getting away with murder, because you in fact support war crimes and collective punishment and you defended Wiesel’s despicable rationalizations of the ethnic cleansing in 1948.
That’s my objection to you–your double standard on human rights, not your criticism of BDS as such, which is just a tactic to me, not something I personally am wedded to or know will work. But nothing is going to work until the politicians and the mainstream press start treating Israeli crimes with the seriousness they deserve. You’re on the wrong side on this, with your excuses and your rationalizations. If most Americans saw Israel’s actions the way Phil does, then we could have a serious discussion on what to do about it. And maybe firm pressure, short of BDS, would work, once the Israelis realized the usual hasbara lies weren’t having any effect. I don’t see why the Israelis would ever change what they’re doing so long as the US political climate on this subject remains what it is, where a President backs down in abject fashion after initially making a very modest demand (that settlement expansion stop).
As for my interest in you, you are the leading representative at this blog of the type of liberal Zionism that dominates in this country–the kind that criticizes Israeli settlements, but puts a lid on excessive truth-telling, though you don’t pull any punches when discussing Palestinian guilt for their crimes. I think there are humane Zionists, but unfortunately you’re not one of them.
And, in contrast to your “observation” of no progress, Palestinian institution-building continues (with Israeli acceptance, even as at some point the question of “if not now, when” inevitably gets asked, relative to a Palestinian state).
And, yesterday Netanyahu’s representative announce that he was prepared to pursue negotiations with Palestine based on the outlines of the Arab League proposal.
I grant that it is a “go” game (if you know the game you’ll understand my metaphor), in which the outcome of the game is deceptive until actually concluded. (In some high-level matches, it is even difficult to objectively judge who won.)
That likud even publicly commented on 67 borders as a basis of boundary negotiation, is a literally radically different position than he has ever taken. He is now a Kadima functionally.
Forward ever is a more relevant definition than simplistic “victories”.
“I don’t know if BDS will work–there was maybe a chance Obama could have pressured Netanyahu into doing something, ”
That was a little unclear. I meant that Obama’s approach, which was Wittyesque in its gentleness and fell far short of BDS, might have worked if Obama had something resembling a backbone and had stuck to his guns. I was afraid it would end up in the long run like Clinton in the summer of 2000, where he and his administration accepted Barak’s inadequate offer as “generous” and then blamed Arafat (after promising he wouldn’t do it) for the failure to reach an agreement. But we didn’t even get that far–Obama caved in almost immediately.
Maybe I’m wrong, but to me the emphasis should be on changing how the MSM and the politicians in the US talk about the conflict. There’s been a little bit of progress on this in the press, though not nearly enough. US policy will change for the better (I think) when politicians feel more pressure to be truthful about Israeli crimes, pressure that is stronger than what they feel from the Lobby. Where BDS fits in with this I don’t know.
If you ask every Palestinian and Palestine activist, their goal is simple: to end the siege and end the occupation. Those two are the primary goals. Naturally, the strategies vary, but that doesn’t meant they’re vague. No single strategy brought about the downfall of apartheid South Africa and no single strategy will bring peace to Israel/Palestine.
Don’t you think Palestine activists have tried reasoning with Israel supporters? Don’t you think they’ve already tried explaining to them the plight of the Palestinians? Hell, you don’t care so why would Israelis.
Does Palestinian institution building continue? They don’t even have a government and settlement building continues unabated.
I would certainly welcome any negotiations and I certainly do welcome the spokesman’s words, but it’s something I’ll believe when I see. Judging by Netanyahu’s talks over the past couple of months, he seems unwilling to give any real concessions, but I’ll see what happens – maybe I’ll be given a welcome surprise.
And before you go Hamas bashing, they made it clear long ago that they wanted to be part of the negotiations and were ready to hold them whenever.
Thank you for your acknowledgement that I am not a “hasbara agent”, but an independant thinker.
The reason that I distinguish between Palestinian terrorism and IDF actions (exceptions and excesses), is that I observe that the IDF mission definitions DO include features designed to minimize civilian harms (not consistently, which is the significance of exceptions and also in the significance of the monitoring in some measurable terms, the DEGREE that the exceptions occur.)
That is different than the rhetorical, which regards Israel as evil solely, and not as intended some good or even in some internal conflict as to approach.
I consider that Israel is in conflict as to approach (as is Palestine), and comment towards realizing what I believe will be a mutually humane outcome.
Your criticism of my ability to manifest my recommendations is accurate. I am relatively powerless, have no official role in anything (except some local environmental and spiritual groups), and am not as personally motivated to actually go “door-to-door” as I recommend.
I observe militancy “banging its head against the wall”, in not considering what is actually likely to be effective, in favor of the “concensus” of emotionalism.
I personally believe the left has no bearings on who to regard as leadership among Palestinians, and feel then blindly compelled to not impose their values and goals onto Palestinian strategy. (It is parallel to the logic of AIPAC, that yeilds to what they perceive as Israeli guidance as to positions, not their own personal judgements. There actually is latitude of views among the “Israel lobby”, which conflicts with this generalization even about AIPAC.)
“End the occupation” is a vague term.
Different people mean radically different conclusions from that same phrase.
That is a big part of the problem.
It’s really not vague. Remove all Israeli soldiers and civilians from the West Bank (the West Bank defined by the 1967 borders) unless they have explicit permission to be there by the Palestinian government.
“Thank you for your acknowledgement that I am not a “hasbara agent”, but an independant thinker.”
Who was the lucky recipient of that statement? Not me, I hope. I don’t think you’re is an “agent” if that means someone who is paid to spout nonsense on websites–I think you are a fairly typical self-deluded person with conflicting agendas. You rationalize the crimes of your holy state, as Chomsky would say–it really is a type of religion for you. You want to think of yourself as a good person, but you also worship at the shrine of liberal Zionism as you perceive it, and your religion would be threatened if you had to acknowledge that someone like Ben Gurion plotting the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians can be every bit as evil as a terrorist leader who straps explosives on a teenager and sends him to a pizza parlor.
“The reason that I distinguish between Palestinian terrorism and IDF actions (exceptions and excesses), is that I observe that the IDF mission definitions DO include features designed to minimize civilian harms”
Not all IDF actions are meant to minimize civilian harms–clearly Israel’s behavior in Gaza and Lebanon 2006 and Lebanon 1982 were not meant to minimize civilian harms and the blockade is a massive act of sadism meant to split the population from Hamas. You of course defend the latter.
Governments are almost never as evil as they could possibly be. Maybe Pol Pot was. Maybe Hitler. For the most part, governments which are guilty of gross violations of human rights, including the deliberate killing of civilians, don’t kill as many as they could have killed. In Israel’s case, they have to walk the line between smacking down their inferiors while still keeping up some pretense that they aren’t mass-murdering monsters for the sake of their supporters overseas, like you. Even you might have some limit to your gullibility, though it’s not clear where that line would be. Whenever you are faced with clear examples of Israeli wrongdoing that matches in quality (and exceeds in scale) any terrorist action by Palestinians, you apply whitewash.
Hamas and the IDF both deliberately kill civilians on some occasions, but they don’t do this all the time. The hypocritical distinction you draw is a traditional one made by ideologues of all stripes–Orwell wrote about this numerous times and you are a classic example of what he had in mind. There are also some lefties who rationalize Palestinian violence, including suicide bombing. You’re in the same camp, though neither you nor they would ever admit this.
This whitewashing of Israeli crimes is the main factor in preventing the US from acting as an honest broker in the conflict. The fact that the US constantly sides with Israel makes perfect sense, if you make yourself think that the Palestinian crimes are evil, whereas Israel is just overreacting. People who think like you are among the biggest obstacles to truth telling and to peace.
I tried to be fair to you in my post above listing your beliefs because I don’t think it is helpful to criticize people for the wrong reasons. You (or rather, people with real influence who think like you) are harmful to the cause of peace in part because you can come off to the average not very well-informed person as being pro-peace, while constantly reinforcing the narrative that makes Palestinian crimes “evil” while Israeli crimes are merely “excessive”.
Richard: Before you reach for your keyboard, I would encourage you to read and ponder Donald’s thoughtful analysis of your views. He spends enough time composing his views so that we can actually make sense of it the first time we read them.
Also, I would point out that you misunderstand Frederick Douglass and the history of the movement for civil rights. First, in the 1860s hundreds of thousands of northern soldiers fought for four years to destroy the slave power on the battlefield, instead of talking politely to it.
A century later, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and many others confronted segregation nonviolently but directly and militantly, in much the same manner as the Gaza Freedom marchers this very day. As I reminded you a few days ago, Dr. King’s famous “Letter from a Birmingham Jail” was written not in response to extreme racists, but to moderates — the Wittys of that time — who had criticized him for ‘precipitating violence.’
Well of course they are lap dogs for Israel and the USA aparisian, this has been known for a long long time. It is only Zionist hacks and trolls that try to portray Egyptian servility as something that arises from the rulers in Egypt autonomously. Apparently they think whatever lies they profess contrary to all reason and reality must be embraced simply because they post them.
The BBC’s Jeremy Bowen has an article about the situation in Gaza: link to news.bbc.co.uk
Usually I find his writing equivocal and shallow — the kind of party line assessments you could expect from EU or American politicians. But here he reports on a lot of the findings of the Failing Gaza report.
And on a more personal note, I was wondering today about the actual size of Gaza, and how I could understand it in terms that would have everyday meaning for me. For instance, is the strip about the size of two average counties in the U.S.? What I found was that, by area, the Gaza Strip is about one-fifth the size of Monroe County where I live in upstate NY. Even ignoring the fact that Israel deliberately forced Gaza’s economy into dependence over 40 years of occupation, and subsequently bombed its infrastructure to oblivion, the idea of being confined indefinitely to 1/5 of my own county by itself is just unimaginable. That 1.5 million people live that way is mass incarceration, plain and simple.
And of course there is no possibility of anything close to self-sufficiency, due to size alone (of course few places could be self-sufficient, but Gaza least of all), and therefore no possibility that a blockade could be humane.
The reason that the repetition of arguments does not convince, is because they are repetitions of condemnations only. They don’t answer the questions that a humanist Zionist asks, which is “HOW can we be good neighbors?”.
The assertion of collective guilt on the part of Israelis or supporters will consistently fall on deaf ears, until the questions of “HOW can we be good neighbors?”, a practical question is addressed by dissenters.
Dissent could then be oriented relative to those answers, promises, rather than just ideological driven demands that only make sense to the converted (the SMALL minority).
Well, please, I’d like to hear your ‘humanist Zionist’ answer to that question. How can Israel be a good neighbour?
My answer as a humanist observer would be for both to forget their religion and race, but it seems that’s the wrong answer.
One may forget his anger, but not his personal belief-religion and race…
Forgetting a crime is not the same thing as forgiving it, zamaaz. Not by a long shot.
Its not a practical suggestion.
There is another approach, suggested by Phil’s comment “help my people grow”, which is for them all to REMEMBER their religions, particularly the parts that command to love thy neighbor as thyself, and to treat strangers decently, equally to neighbors (in clarification that Torah does not mean to regard only Jews as worthy of compassion).
You live in a country where your “race” or “religion” don’t “legally” determine where you live, where you may build a home, who you may marry, where you will work, etc
Yet you insist that Israel, a country that was founded on the ethnic cleansing of an indigenous people be a land where one “ethno-religious” group may dominate everyone else.
I’m sorry but that is the definition of utter hypocrisy.
An odd revision of history, and projection of my views.
Are you denying the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, Richard?
I am definitely contesting that the “ethnic cleansing of Palestine” is the sum total of the story of the events, of the relationships, or close to the most important history or even remotely close to the most effective and helpful basis of action in the future.
The important word is “extent” of the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Or, extent of the intended ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, which then leads to the question of the extent of the intended and actual ethnic cleansing of Jews.
I oppose both, in preference for reconciliation, which means validating the other.
Substitute “Holocaust” for “ethnic cleansing of Palestine” in Witty’s posting above. Sound familiar?
Richard,
Israel could have never become a Jewish dominated state without the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians who lived there. Even in the portion set aside for the Jewish State under the UN Partition Plan, there existed an equal number of Jews and non-Jews, so such numbers would have prevented the total domination of the government by Jews. Thus, Israel was founded on the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous peoples. There is nothing odd or revisionist about this. It is the truth. What is odd is your denial of its importance. And please don’t claim that you opposed the ethnic cleansing, as you continue to oppose giving the refugees their right of return.
Reconciliation means more than “validating” the other, which is another of your vacuous terms. It means treating the other as an equal and with the same concern for justice as you would exhibit for your own. You stand in opposition to both as it would require the end of your fantasy state, which you find more important to embrace than your fellow human being.
That is certainly a practical suggestion. Races and religious beliefs are artificial creations that can be forgot. Why can Israelis and Palestinians be good neighbours as separate states but not good neighbours as families living on a street? What makes you think separating them will achieve?
In Northern Ireland, the Republicans and Nationalists have learned to live together. In Britain, like in the US, you have Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis living side-by-side with no inter-religious problems whatsoever, despite their turbulent history. If Jews and Palestinians can live together in every other state in the world, why not Israel and Palestine. 20% of Israel is already Palestinian, and an increasing percentage of Palestine is resided in by Jews.
It most certainly is a revision, in your unequivocal description.
The intention and practice of ethnic cleansing occurred two ways. It was analagous to the ethnic cleansing that occurred in India (mutually), and similar in the end result with no or very small minority of non-Muslims in Pakistan, but significant minority of Muslims in India.
Migration is the one method by which Israel could have, would have, and did become a Jewish majority. Migration that was racially excluded by the British adopting a patronizing compromise to newly rising Arab oil powers.
They MAY be forgotten, or the differences may be accepted, rather than imposed to be forgotten.
The intention and practice of ethnic cleansing occurred two ways. It was analagous to the ethnic cleansing that occurred in India (mutually), and similar in the end result with no or very small minority of non-Muslims in Pakistan, but significant minority of Muslims in India.
Exactly. That is what happens when you divide on the basis of race/religion. Do you think this would have happened, had the partition not occurred?
Migration is the one method by which Israel could have, would have, and did become a Jewish majority. Migration that was racially excluded by the British adopting a patronizing compromise to newly rising Arab oil powers.
You mean the way Israel is racially excluding Palestinian migration, by passing laws making Palestinians married to Israelis ineligible for citizenship? You think migration of Jews from the US/France/SA/UK to Israel is more important than the repatriation of millions of Palestinian refugees?
Migration is not the same as ethnic cleansing and you are in denial if you are claiming it is the same. Israel became a Jewish dominated state because the Israeli government ethnically cleansed over 750,000 Palestinians. Without the housing and personal property taken from the forcibly absented Palestinians Israel could have never have housed nor supported the vast number of Jewishly exclusive immigrants it sought to add to its population. And it could have never supported enough new immigrants foisted on the indigenous population to create a majority that was willing to strip the Palestinians of their civil and human rights, without first ethnically cleansing the vast majority of Palestinians.
You are projecting a fantasy Israel that never existed. Ethnic cleansing was a foundational necessity for the existence of Israel as a Jewish dominated state.
I am somewhere between Witty and everyone else on here concerning the Ethnic Cleansing.
With that being said, history is full of shitty shitty things, we can’t go back in history and change it, so what can we do to move on?
Is a bi-national state the only answer? how will that be achieved, contrary to what James Bradley says, that has never been answered on this site. How will a bi-national state work? how will the many obstacles of forcing two groups of people to live together in harmony play out?
I agree. Which is why I actually support a two-state solution (peace is more likely). But I do oppose the idea that there is an explicit need for a state solely for Jews or a state solely for Palestinians, which is what many Israel supporters claim.
Having said that, humanity has come too far to be still held back by petty racial and religious differences. What does it say about the nature of mankind if we have to continually separate people on the basis of their race/religion, because it’s not safe for them to live together?
A bi-national state can happen, but not without a lot of effort from Palestinians, Israelis and the international community.
I hate to play the “yes it is – no it isn’t” game, but I have actually written more than one post on the subject of what will be achieved by one state (I don’t like the term “bi-national”) and how it might work. I believe an article by Jonathan Kuttab on precisely these issues was recently cited by Phil. Others have also weighed in.
To my mind, the crucial element of any solution or process must be recognition of the complete equality between Jewish Israelis and Palestinians – including the equal right to security. One state or two, without that, no solution will be fair or viable. Thus far, I have seen no serious two-state proposals (Oslo, Camp David, Taba, Geneva) that accept this basic principle. So please explain, yonira, how a two-state solution that gives far greater power and privilege to Jewish Israelis can be viable in the long – or even the short – run.
I thought this bears repeating, as it is, to my mind, the only solution that is both just and will work. And it is the only solution that will lead to a complete reconciliation.
This is actually one good question everybody should reflect…Perhaps we can start with looking over the issues from both perspectives.
Maybe you should have never stopped doing that, zamaaz.
Unitary state, Shmuel?
Unitary’s ok, potsherd. I’m just hoping that a future state would have room – on equal footing – even for those who do not belong to either of the two dominant “nations”.
Shmuel,
is there anything better by Kuttab than this article: (not chastising, just asking honestly)
link to thejerusalemfund.org
thanks
It says that where the conditions make it possible for communities to live as good neighbors, or to integrate, so be it.
Where that is impossible for objective conditions, it is important to respect the reasoning for the separation, and to make the best of it, the most neighborly that is possible.
To fantasize, to wish, is to impose often horrific real life conditions. Better that you take your ideal and work to design changes in what is pragmatically possible, always moving forward but never even resenting people’s motives for separate identity.
Do you then support the Nuremberg laws? The deportation and ghettoisation of Jews by the Germans? Were they right to determine that they could not live with the Jews and needed a final solution? A solution where the Jews could live anywhere but in Germany, or Europe?
Yonira,
This is the article that was posted here. I agree it’s not great, but it is an attempt to deal with the issue and that was your original question. Kuttab is usually good on a broad level, but tends to lose something in the details.
And besides Richards, Ethnic cleansing must be also viewd in context. If we refer ethnic cleansing just what happend in Rwanda, or in Bosnia, this is one thing. (Please anyone, dont get mad on this idea) But the case of ‘Ethnic Cleansing’ of the Jewish Nation, this is another. The jews maybe accussed as cruel and abusive, but I really pity the Jews in this aspect. They, in connection to anticipated ‘ethnocracy’ have no other option. They have to remove people of other religions from them citizenry (yet they may be ctiizens by adoption or conversion). This is mandated by their faith. These non-Jews will become classifed migrant workers or ‘multiple entry visitors’ (but somehow I believe they can remain working in Israel). This is what I meant, to promote mutual understanding we also have to look into the views of the other oppposing party. We cannot just impose justice solely for our side! In this conflict, we do not have to punish the Palestinians as they struggle for survival as a nation, so do with the Israelis. If both are right, then we must seek commonality among them where both can pursuit their respective goals without harming the other. And one measure is to alleviate the adverse impacts of socio-economic dislocation if ever the two-state option is agreed upon. And this really needs sincerity from both sides.
If we insist to reject the faith of the Jews which is their business not ours, then we must be ready for more rounds of this cruel war… My only concerned is that at these present belligerent status, both interests would only be prolonging the sufferings of ordinary Palestinians.
thanks Shmuel, it wasn’t bad actually, just wondering if there was more.
The absolute evil Nazreal doesnt recognise the right of its neighbours to exist so the question is not valid.
There is never a good neighbor for a bad neighbor…
Jews good, Palestinians bad?
No Shafiq, do you know why I am in this debate? I too is willing to join in the search for peace in Palestine. I do not even say the the Jews are better than the Arabs. As you would see, if we translate the ancient Biblical to this present territorial definitions, have we not realized the citizenship or the race of Abraham, grand father of Jacob? He could either be an Arab or Iranian? His original place was just accross the Tigris-Euphratis River, the believed site of the Garden of Eden. Being a sojourner (Habiru) whose life is a matter of wandering with his flocks around this region, why should I based by judgments based on one’s race alone?
Even our family in matter of days would be uprooted from our present place to another? Believe me the emotional, mental, and social tensions of relocation is extermely difficult to describe? This is the same pain both the Palestinian and Jewish families suffer at these times. And maybe only the difference are the circumstances that go along with it.
And besides, are we aware that the original place of Abraham was in the region at the middle of Iraq, Saudi, Kuwait, an Iran. If I should hate the Arabs that I should hate the Jews too, or that if I should love the Arabs (as the Gospels thaught us), then I should love the Jews also. Otherwise, doing the opposite makes me a ‘wicked person’, an infidel, and truly adversarial to the Lord.
I am not against the Arabs, nor against the Jews. I am only against these continuing insanity in the middle-east that maked the Palestinians at the losing end for roughly 60 years now…
Can we not see while soldiers and fighters shoot each other, it is the ordinary Palestinians and Israelis that both suffer most wounds? I saw as I had been watching Aljazeera everyday for more than a month since the start of the Gaza war…I have been hearing the cries and agonies of the wounded people and those whose family members especially children were killed, I had been asking myself why are these going on?
So why do you keep repeating your phony arguments ad nauseum, Witty, when you claim to know better?
Is this what good neighbors do to other human beings, Witty? Is this the answer to your question about the nature of humanist Zionism?
link to normanfinkelstein.com
“They don’t answer the questions that a humanist Zionist asks, which is ‘HOW can we be good neighbors?’”
Ask the Likudists. [And let me know how successful you are, btw.] This question is pointless here; this is a place where we condemn the lack of justice. And correctly and rightfully so: devoid of religious fanaticism, re-interpreted 2500-year-old prophet pronouncements, and a duffel bag of real and imagined injustices that span centuries. The reality check is that apartheid and ethnic cleansing is now, and what is happening is unjust. Period.
As for psychoanalyzing how everyone should answer questions that buffet your view of yourself, direct them to the perps.
correction: “The reality check is that apartheid and ethnic cleansing are happening now, and what is happening now is unjust.”
Chris Hedges’ talk about the morality of the Gaza Massacre and facts on the ground at the NY Center for Ethical Culture a year ago is WELL WORTH watching. Powerful. All the more so, to me, because he was the Middle East Bureau Chief until he quit in disgust over the NYT lying about and ramping up the Iraq War.
link to z.pe
Should Jews who do not believe in equal rights for Palestinians, live in countries where as minorities, they enjoy the same civil rights as the majority? Isn’t that hypocrisy?
Not so long as they acknowledge that Israel is a crime against the tenets of Judaism itself, among other things.
Huh? What does that have to do with living in other countries? If they enjoy living in India with the same rights as other Indians, what do we care what the heck their Judaism says about it?
I don’t think it’s ever hypocrisy for any human being to have civil rights, and I think the best thing any Jewish person can do, if they denounce what Israel is, is for them to leave, or never go there in the first place.
Israel only exists at all because Zionists desperately try to import Jews to create an artificial notion of a majority and a “birthright.” If Jews start denying that, if they decide never to make Israel and Israel’s crimes part of what they themselves believe in, then Israel will starve and eventually collapse under its own weight.
People don’t realize, I think, that at the center of the macho exercise of power and domination is, symbolically, the same whiny, self-hating art student reject with an icky-looking mustache. People like that only have power because other people give them power.
Depending on people to face their own hypocrisy is like expecting the Nazis to prosecute themselves. Bigotry must be faced, it must be challenged. There is no neutral ground in the face of human rights abuses, no “self hate” in the face of murder. There is only choice. Either you support the abuse or you unequivocally speak out against it. There is no grey area where human rights are concerned. All you need to do is give up your basic rights, your identity and your place as a human being in society to recognise this.
It applies to the left as well.
I rarely see any self-reflection here from the “likely suspects”.
There is no left or right in the abuse of human beings Witty. You either justify it, or you oppose it. You choose.
That’s because you’re too busy fawning over your own reflection in the pool, Witty. You don’t think we all know that your constant presence here is just an exercise in Narcissm? If it weren’t for us, no one would be paying attention to you at all.
That’s because they are reflecting with themselves and not you.
“To my mind, the crucial element of any solution or process must be recognition of the complete equality between Jewish Israelis and Palestinians – including the equal right to security. One state or two, without that, no solution will be fair or viable. ”
Good point.
How do you see that occurring? Do you think that BDS will make that more likely, or less?
More likely. Israel didn’t come to the negotiating table until President Carter threatened to cut off the foreign aid paycheck. There’s no reason to think it won’t take similar pressure this time around, and that pressure isn’t going to come from the US government, clearly. They’ve been bought and sold.
Indeed, I see Israeli tantrums as akin to this:
link to youtube.com
LOL! Wow, yeah, that’s definitely emblematic. :)
Do you know the etymology of Boycott?
It works.