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‘Promoting coexistence with an occupier rather than divestment is tragically misguided’ –Palestinian groups to Presbyterians

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Caterpillar tractor
Caterpillar tractor

Palestinian Christian organizers sent along the following letter calling on the U.S. Presbyterian church to take historic action and divest from three companies doing business in the occupation. Signatories are at the bottom.

Dear Members of the Presbyterian Church, 

As Palestinian Christians we urge you to divest from American companies that directly profit from the Israeli occupation of Palestine. Investments in companies like Caterpillar, Hewlett Packard (HP), and Motorola provide direct support for the illegal occupation and the ethnically segregated legal system it enforces. Choosing to withdraw such support will affirm the Presbyterian Church’s understanding that challenging oppression through just and peaceful means is the most genuine expression of compassion for the oppressor as well as the oppressed. 

The Church does not invest in organizations that threaten the security of Israeli civilians. Likewise, it should not invest in organizations that profit from the oppression of the Palestinian people. The divestment measure before you is not an attack on Israelis; it is a refusal to be complicit in systematic structural violence against Palestinians. The Israeli military uses Caterpillar bulldozers to demolish Palestinian homes, uproot Palestinian olive tries, and build illegal settlements. HP biometric systems and Motorola surveillance technology help Israel deny Palestinians their freedom of movement. As such, these companies help enforce the system that keeps Palestinians living under indefinite Israeli occupation– legally and politically inferior to Israeli citizens. 

Christian Palestinians, like all other Palestinians living in our occupied country, remain vulnerable to the political and economic interests of Israel, while Israeli citizens enjoy full political and civil rights. When our children are arrested, usually in the middle of the night, they can be denied access to legal counsel for up to 90 days. Their Israeli counterparts can demand a lawyer within 48 hours. When Palestinians living in the 62 percent of the West Bank under direct Israeli control apply for a permit to build much needed shelter, they are denied 94 percent of the time. If they build anyway, the Israeli Military uses Caterpillar bulldozers to demolish their homes. When Israeli extremists attack our villages, burn our olive trees, shoot at our families, and desecrate our churches and mosques, they are rarely arrested, and even more rarely charged with a crime. We, Palestinians, by contrast, live under constant surveillance, aided by companies like Motorola and HP, and are often imprisoned for taking part in peaceful demonstrations. 

Given this reality, we believe that promoting coexistence instead of divestment would be tragically misguided. Jesus’ rejection of the corrupt and oppressive polity of his day demonstrated that loving one’s enemy does not mean accepting political injustice and domination. Love, in this context, means engaging in righteous and peaceful resistance, of which divestment is a part, in order to establish equality. Such action serves not only to liberate the oppressed from political and economic subjugation, but also to free the oppressor from his or her fear of the oppressed. 

The Palestinian Christian community supports the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions movement precisely because we see it as the most substantial challenge and peaceful resistance to Israel’s violent occupation, under which all Palestinians suffer.

 We implore our Presbyterian brothers and sisters not to surrender to the comforts of the less controversial path. Palestinians and Israelis both know how difficult it is to uproot decades of entrenched injustice. It is a task that cannot be accomplished by half-measures and good will alone.

Please vote to divest from firms that profit from violence against Palestinians and join us in our pro-active struggle for peace.

1.      Antonian Charitable Society – Bethlehem

2.      MP Fayez Saqqa (Bethlehem seat)

3.      Al Ibrahimi Society – Bethlehem

4.      Orthodox Society – Bethlehem

5.      Saint Afram Society – Bethlehem

6.      The Union of Bethlehem Neighborhoods

7.      Orthodox Club – Beit Jala

8.      Orthodox Club – Beit Sahour

9.      Orthodox Club – Bethlehem

10. Al Ihsan  Arab Orthodox Society – Beit Jala.

11. Ain Karem Society – Bethlehem

12. Siraj Center for Holy Land Studies

13. Arab Orthodox Housing Society – Beit Sahour

14. Alternative Tourism Group – Beit Sahour

15. Sain Vincent Charitable Society – Beit Jala

16. Wi’am Center – Bethlehem

17. Committee for the Preservation of Cremisan – Beit Jala.

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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62 Responses

  1. CloakAndDagger
    July 5, 2012, 10:27 am

    As has often been brought up by many on this blog, it is as if the woman is being asked to cohabit with the rapist.

    • anan
      July 6, 2012, 1:15 am

      This analogy is not valid. Rape isn’t the same thing as using eminent domain type powers to arbitrarily confiscate private property paying below market prices.

      The problem with your analogy is that Israelis and Palestinians are family that lives in the same home. They are stuck together. If they fight with each other forever, both of them will suffer.

  2. seafoid
    July 5, 2012, 10:33 am

    “It was Zionism itself that Israel buried this week. Let it go. It was not only Shamir that we buried this week. When he went, he took Zionism with him. When the Ariel university is declared, Israel will have nothing more to conquer, and no need to formally annex. ”

    http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/it-was-zionism-itself-that-israel-buried-this-week-let-it-go.premium-1.448562

  3. hophmi
    July 5, 2012, 12:33 pm

    Except that at the end of the day these people all have to live together. It’s not a matter of some empire withdrawing and going across an ocean. So I think refusing to engage is particularly misguided here. The Israelis are not going to disappear.

    • Woody Tanaka
      July 5, 2012, 1:00 pm

      Nor are the Palestinians. So perhaps if the israeli’s economy is shattered, they might get the boot of the Palestinians neck, instead of stomping down harder and describing that as the victim “refusing to engage.” They’re willing to let the zios steal 78% of their homeland. How much more do you zios need?

      • anan
        July 6, 2012, 1:19 am

        Israelis benefit from Palestinian success, including economic success. Palestinians benefit from Israeli success, including economic success. Israelis and Palestinians share common interests and common values.

        If the Israeli economy is shattered, the Palestinian economy will be shattered as well. To want to harm Israel so much is to be anti Palestinian.

        Similarly, Israelis doing right by Palestinians benefits Israelis.

      • Blake
        July 7, 2012, 3:37 pm

        Anan, Palestinians were not the ones who refused to assimilate nor were they they ones who wanted to carve their country up. In fact the Palestinians preferred to keep it a unitary state solving the solution through negotiation. I would say that is fair.

      • Roya
        July 7, 2012, 6:36 pm

        Palestinians benefit from Israeli success, including economic success. Israelis and Palestinians share common interests and common values. If the Israeli economy is shattered, the Palestinian economy will be shattered as well. To want to harm Israel so much is to be anti Palestinian.
        Back when apartheid South Africa was crumbling, the Zionist equivalents of the day were also saying that boycotting South Africa would actually backfire and hurt the blacks. Nobody bought this nonsense then, and nobody is buying it now.

    • radii
      July 5, 2012, 2:59 pm

      you have to be a good neighbor to have good neighbors and israel and the zionist thugs have shown only that they want to dominate and control and abuse – for thousands of years they lived together and will again, but not before israel and the zio-thugs stop the awful behavior and mistreatment

      • anan
        July 6, 2012, 1:21 am

        radii, a majority of Israelis come from Arab Jewish and non Jewish Arab ancestry. Are you saying these negative things about Arabs? Many non Arab Israelis are also good people.

        Not all Israelis are bad. Israel is an extremely diverse country. At best you can say that “some Israelis” are such and such.

      • Roya
        July 7, 2012, 6:42 pm

        @anan: You say that “Many non Arab Israelis are also good people” and that “Not all Israelis are bad.”
        This implies: (1) Arab Israelis (Palestinians) as a whole are bad people, but you can find a few good ones in the bunch. (2) Israelis as a whole are good people, but you can find a few bad ones in the bunch.
        The racism in your statements is blunt. clear. undeniable.

      • Roya
        July 7, 2012, 6:54 pm

        “At best you can say that “some Israelis” are such and such.”
        anan, there is no need to say “some Israelis” when referring to Israel in general as radii did because the actions that Israel takes are done with the complicity and tacit approval of the majority of Israelis. The last I heard most Israelis approved of the Gaza massacre, as further indicated by the fact that Israel is preparing for something even worse in Lebanon. “Some Israelis” would be appropriate to use when referring to the small minority of Israelis like Ilan Pappe and Avi Shlaim or those in ICAHD, B’Tselem, Boycott from Within, etc..

    • Sumud
      July 5, 2012, 5:23 pm

      Read the title again hophmi.

      Co-existence with an equal is far removed from co-existence with an occupier.

      Would YOU be prepared to settle for co-existence with an occupier? I think not.

      • anan
        July 6, 2012, 1:23 am

        Why aren’t Israelis and Palestinians equal?

        What do you think about how Hong Kong, Singapore, South Korea and Japan have practiced resistance to harsh occupation? They decided to become richer, more powerful and more influential than their occupiers and resist that way.

        What is wrong with Palestinians following their own customized nuanced version of that model?

      • straightline
        July 7, 2012, 9:53 pm

        Not sure of your point here Anan. Hong Kong reverted to China when the lease ran out, as planned.

        If you are talking about the many immigrants from Hong Kong and other former colonies to the UK, I would like to know how the Palestinians can possibly do that with Israel. They are not allowed to emigrate to Israel – even if they were born there. Please customize and nuance it for me.

      • anan
        July 8, 2012, 1:49 am

        Hong Kong was harshly occupied by England. Instead of complaining, Hong Kong decided to become richer, more powerful and more influential than England. They succeeded. Hong Kong become one of the richest countries on earth.

        Hong Kong welcomed many immigrants from all over the word and made them Hong Kong citizens. Hong Kong gave high paying jobs to many English men and woman. Higher paying jobs than they could have gotten in relatively poorer England. Many of the English stayed on in Hong Kong to become patriotic Hong Kong citizens.

        Hong Kong built one of the highest savings rates in the world; and began to buy enormous amounts of property all over the world, including in England.

        In the 1990s, many began to ask . . . did England take over Hong Kong . . . or was Hong Kong taking over England.

        Why can’t Gaza become another Hong Kong? Why can’t Gaza become a global trade and investment cross roads . . . richer than Israel and deeply interconnected with Israel?

        Why punish Palestinians who want to get rich by trade, investment and combined collaborative product development with Israel? Let the Palestinians become rich and successful. Let the Palestinians increase their capacity.

        When Palestinians have more capacity and become more successful . . . then Palestinians will have more leverage. When Palestinians have more leverage, then the Palestinians will have justice. The rest is intentional dissembling, dishonesty or irrelevant.

      • MRW
        July 8, 2012, 1:08 pm

        @anan,

        Your rant about Hong Kong is historically and culturally wrong; you also have zero knowledge of the Chinese character or their 100-year-plus struggle with the Brits. Your economic advice about Palestine and talk of their increasing capacity defies economic facts on the ground.

        And this is just stupid: “When Palestinians have more leverage, then the Palestinians will have justice.” Justice is not dependent on a financial index.

      • Sumud
        July 8, 2012, 2:31 pm

        Why can’t Gaza become another Hong Kong? Why can’t Gaza become a global trade and investment cross roads . . . richer than Israel and deeply interconnected with Israel?

        Why didn’t the Warsaw Ghetto jews create another Hong Kong?

        Do tell me anan. What excuse will you make for them. “Instead of complaining”, why didn’t they decide to “become richer, more powerful and more influential than” nazi Germany?

        European jews and nazis were “equal” right, like Israelis and Palestinians are “equal”…?

      • American
        July 8, 2012, 3:25 pm

        @ anan

        Please bone up on Hong Kong before you spout this gibberish.
        First- Hong Kong isn’t ‘a country’. It’s a city in China that it allows some autonomy because it is the financial center for “”foreign investment”” in China. Think of Hong Kong as China’s Wall Street. It doesn’t do much for the average Chinese as only 19% of Hong Kong residents have any college education. It’s basically a gated community for the world financiers where the majority labor force serves the 1%.
        No doubt what you’d like to see for Palestine…

      • Light
        July 8, 2012, 5:27 pm

        Anan you are a troll. You ask rediculous questions when you know full and well that Israel has no interest in allowing Palestinians to prosper economically. There is a complete blockade on Gaza. Palestintinians cannot fish let alone develop the natural gas resources offshore that Israel covets. How on earth can Gaza become a Hong Kong when they cannot even export their produce.

      • anan
        July 14, 2012, 2:13 pm

        Light, will respond to your points:
        1)
        “Anan you are a troll.” What is a troll? Are pro Palestinian people trolls?

        2) “You ask rediculous questions when you know full and well that Israel has no interest in allowing Palestinians to prosper economically.”
        My greatest criticism of Israel has been of Israeli policies that suppress Palestinian economic growth. I think everyone on this blog should focus first and foremost on how to facilitate Palestinian success, including Palestinian economic success. And pressure Israel into following policies that will allow the Palestinian economy to flourish. Surge Palestinian capacity first. The rest will follow on its own.
        3) “There is a complete blockade on Gaza.” I support free trade with almost everyone, a la Ron Paul and libertarians. The sanctions on Gaza should be lifted.
        4) “Palestintinians cannot fish” There needs to be a focus on divvying up fishing rights between Israelis and Palestinians so that both of them can fish sustainably (without depleting sea life).
        5) “let alone develop the natural gas resources offshore that Israel covets.’
        This is likely to be tied up in litigation for some time. Moreover the price of Natural Gas has fallen to all time inflation adjusted lows. Focus on other types of more practical economic development first.
        6)
        “How on earth can Gaza become a Hong Kong when they cannot even export their produce.” This is a problem. No two ways about it. We all need to work on this together.

        There is a complete blockade on Gaza. Palestintinians cannot fish let alone develop the natural gas resources offshore that Israel covets. How on earth can Gaza become a Hong Kong when they cannot even export their produce.”

    • Avi_G.
      July 6, 2012, 12:09 am

      July 5, 2012 at 12:33 pm

      Except that at the end of the day these people all have to live together.

      So the Palestinians are supposed to forgive and forget the wiping out of their entire country, the Nakbah and all the private property that was looted, the 45 year-old occupation and the thousands upon thousands of murdered innocent lives in the name of reconciliation, but god forbid someone should dare and boycott Israelis, then it’s somehow counterproductive to the process of reconciliation.

      Remind me again how such sentiments are not typical of Jewish supremacist nevelot?

      P.S. – You’re peddling wondering jew’s crappy logic.

      • anan
        July 7, 2012, 2:25 pm

        “So the Palestinians are supposed to forgive and forget the wiping out of their entire country, the Nakbah and all the private property that was looted, the 45 year-old occupation and the thousands upon thousands of murdered innocent lives in the name of reconciliation, but god forbid someone should dare and boycott Israelis, then it’s somehow counterproductive to the process of reconciliation.

        Remind me again how such sentiments are not typical of Jewish supremacist nevelot?”

        Yes. Remember the words of a great Palestinian Yeshua ban Yoseph. He taught us to love and respect our enemies with all our hearts and all our souls. To forgive the crimes and trespasses of others.

        Yeshua ban Yoseph was a great Jewish Palestinian.

      • Roya
        July 7, 2012, 7:13 pm

        “Yes. Remember the words of a great Palestinian Yeshua ban Yoseph. He taught us to love and respect our enemies with all our hearts and all our souls. To forgive the crimes and trespasses of others.

        Yeshua ban Yoseph was a great Jewish Palestinian.
        That’s a great lesson, really it is. But it’s unfair to ask the Palestinians exclusively to adhere to this. I hear about the Holocaust every other day, if not that once every three days. I’m not exaggerating, I really do. Jewry hasn’t gotten past the “Never forget, never forgive” ideology so what entitles you to shove “Forget now, forgive now” down the throat of the Palestinians?

      • straightline
        July 7, 2012, 9:56 pm

        Tell that to the Christian Zionists.

    • eljay
      July 7, 2012, 4:20 pm

      >> Except that at the end of the day these people all have to live together. … So I think refusing to engage is particularly misguided here. The Israelis are not going to disappear.

      Nor should they. What must disappear, however, is “Jewish State”, and what must take its place is a secular, democratic and egalitarian Israeli state – a state of and for all Israelis, equally.

      Unfortunately, Zio-supremacists refuse to engage. They are particularly misguided.

  4. anan
    July 5, 2012, 1:07 pm

    Can I ask some questions about Palestine here? If it is inappropriate, please forgive me and let me know.

    1) Why did the PA fail to protect Joseph’s Tomb (Kever Yosef)? http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/
    Isnt’ this an important part of Palestinian heritage?

    2) Why did the Arab Legion armies destroy the Ramban Synagogue, the 2nd oldest synagogue in old Jerusalem? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramban_Synagogue

    3) Why did Jordan damage so much stuff during their 19 year occupation of the West Bank? http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace

    It is very important that the Palestinian National Security Forces do a better job protecting historic and religious sites. How can this be achieved? Many Israelis and friends of Israel believe that the PA lets ancient Jewish sites be damaged on purpose. How can they be persuaded that this is not so?

    • seafoid
      July 5, 2012, 1:32 pm

      I think it’s inappropriate, anan

      Why did the bots choose Palestine for their colonial project?
      Do the people of Gaza deserve everything that Israel is doing to them?

      • hophmi
        July 5, 2012, 1:35 pm

        “I think it’s inappropriate, anan”

        Why, because it suggests that the Palestinians are not perfect angels?

      • Annie Robbins
        July 5, 2012, 5:56 pm

        because it’s a highjack.

      • anan
        July 6, 2012, 1:32 am

        I am sorry Annie and Seafoid for any mistakes I have made.

      • AllenBee
        July 6, 2012, 7:14 am

        Annie, was your point that the links are dead –> the stories are bogus?

    • Woody Tanaka
      July 5, 2012, 1:44 pm

      “It is very important that the Palestinian National Security Forces do a better job protecting historic and religious sites.”

      Exactly. They have to be no worse than the israels were in protecting the Moroccan Quarter.

      • anan
        July 6, 2012, 1:32 am

        What happened at the Moroccan Quarter?

      • Woody Tanaka
        July 6, 2012, 3:11 pm

        Not what happened “at” the Moroccan Quarter. It’s what happened “to” the Moroccan Quarter. When the zionists took over in ’67, they liquidated it. Destroyed it, and all it’s history with it, utterly and completely, out of a fit of jude-supremacy.

    • Dexter
      July 5, 2012, 2:36 pm

      It is not for the colonized, oppressed, and dispossessed to “persuade” the colonizer, oppressor, and dispossessor of anything.

      You have a colonizer’s mentality.

      • anan
        July 6, 2012, 1:34 am

        How did Hong Kong persuade the harsh English occupiers of their country? Didn’t Hong Kong do it by becoming richer, more successful, more powerful and more influential than England? Didn’t Hong Kong do it by starting to take over England?

        Does Hong Kong have a colonizer’s mentality?

      • MRW
        July 8, 2012, 1:10 pm

        Feng Shui.

      • RoHa
        July 9, 2012, 1:17 am

        “How did Hong Kong persuade the harsh English occupiers of their country?”

        Persuade them to do what? The main thing the Hong Kongers tried to persuade the British to do in recent years was not hand the colony back to China. They didn’t succeed.

        (And Hong Kong isn’t a country. First it was part of China. Then it ceased to be part of China and became a British Crown Colony. Then it reverted to China as a Special Region.)

        “Didn’t Hong Kong do it by becoming richer, more successful, more powerful and more influential than England? Didn’t Hong Kong do it by starting to take over England?”

        No. You don’t know anything about Hong Kong, do you?

    • ritzl
      July 5, 2012, 2:47 pm

      It’s wrong to let religious sites be desecrated. Period.

      Now, can I ask some questions about Israel?

      1) Why does the IDF stand by and watch settlers routinely burn mosques in the WB?

      2) Why is so much damage being done to olive trees in the WB, as the IDF stand by and watch? A million or so, to put a number on it.

      3) Why are mosques demolished by the IDF in the WB for lack of a building permit? How can one get a building permit in the WB anyway? Is Israel restricting WB Palestinians right to practice their religious beliefs by not allowing them to build mosques?

      4) Why is Israel excavating around the Haram al Sharif?

      5) Why does Israel object to UNESCO listing the Church of the Nativity as a World Heritage Site, regardless of the mechanism? Why is Israel resisting efforts to get other WB religious sites listed?

      6) Why does Israel allow the Wiesenthal Center to pave over (with or without complete exhumation) the oldest Muslim cemetery in Jerusalem for a parking lot?

      7) If you disagree that an occupying force can do anything it wants with the territory it occupies (Jordanian actions, 48-67), why are there any settlers at all in the WB?

      I’m sure I missed a bunch, probably even some biggies…

      See the thing is, you ask your supposedly innocent questions while you ignore the absolutely not so innocent context. IOW, Why don’t the occupied and movement-restricted Palestinians protect OUR stuff, even while we destroy theirs? That’s a pretty cloistered view of the world, init?

      • anan
        July 6, 2012, 1:42 am

        “1) Why does the IDF stand by and watch settlers routinely burn mosques in the WB?”

        I didn’t know about this. Is there more information about this?

        “2) Why is so much damage being done to olive trees in the WB, as the IDF stand by and watch? A million or so, to put a number on it.”

        Olive trees are very hard to damage. I find this story difficult to believe.

        “3) Why are mosques demolished by the IDF in the WB for lack of a building permit? How can one get a building permit in the WB anyway? Is Israel restricting WB Palestinians right to practice their religious beliefs by not allowing them to build mosques?”

        As far as I know this only happens when Israeli courts determine that someone else owns the land or that the Israeli Land Association can confiscate that piece of property paying a “market price”

        In practice, some say that the corpus of law by which the Israeli judicial system makes these judgements is unfair to Palestinians. And that some Israeli judges might enforce existing Israeli laws in a way that is biased against Palestinians.

        It would take many pages to explain my position on Israeli law and statues. Maybe some other time.

        “4) Why is Israel excavating around the Haram al Sharif?” Is there documentation available about this?

        “5) Why does Israel object to UNESCO listing the Church of the Nativity as a World Heritage Site, regardless of the mechanism? Why is Israel resisting efforts to get other WB religious sites listed?” I didn’t know about this.

        “6) Why does Israel allow the Wiesenthal Center to pave over (with or without complete exhumation) the oldest Muslim cemetery in Jerusalem for a parking lot?” Is there documentation about this?

        “7) If you disagree that an occupying force can do anything it wants with the territory it occupies (Jordanian actions, 48-67), why are there any settlers at all in the WB?”

        Doesn’t welcoming immigrants make countries stronger and richer?

      • Ellen
        July 7, 2012, 7:42 pm

        Anan, unfortunately I do not have the time now to document all your inquiries. But all are, indeed, so. Look it up. The truth is easy to find if you search. Reliable documentation is everywhere.

        Or is your post a sarcastic parody and I just did not get it?

    • Blake
      July 5, 2012, 2:48 pm

      Seriously anan? Lets not go into the number of Churches, Mosques and holy sites you have destroyed between your terrorist land grab of 1948 up to 1967. “Israel” only respects Jewish sites. They are regulated under the 1967 Protection of Holy Sites Law. Through 2009, 135 sacred places were designated. All are Jewish. Many Muslim/Christian ones are neglected or desecrated. Some became, bars, night clubs, stores or restaurants. Doing so shows appalling contempt for anyone not Jewish.

      • anan
        July 6, 2012, 1:31 am

        I don’t remember destroying holy sites. I love holy sites from all religions :-)

        Thanks for teaching me about the “Protection of Holy Sites Law”. I didn’t know about that. All holy places from all religions need to be protected equally.

      • Woody Tanaka
        July 6, 2012, 3:17 pm

        “All holy places from all religions need to be protected equally.”

        So then you agree that the Christians should be permitted to freely worship, post a crucifix, etc., at the site of the Last Supper?

    • Sumud
      July 5, 2012, 5:29 pm

      Two of your three links are dead anan.

      Since it is your first comment it’s hard to be sure, but it appears you are copying and pasting links from prepared talking points.

      Is that the case?

    • anan
      July 5, 2012, 5:47 pm

      Who are “bots”?
      What does colonialism have to do with protecting ancient sites and houses of worship?

      These ancient sites and houses of worship are national treasures that should be a cause of pride for all Palestinians and all Israelis.

      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      Unrelated, what are colonialists? Do you mean “immigrants” and “children of immigrants”?

      After a final two state solution is agreed to, there will likely be a large Israeli minority community living inside Palestine, much the way 23% of Israelis are of Palestinian descent. A way has to be found to protect them and their houses of worship.

      A country that mistreats its minorities, ethnics, immigrants and children of immigrants is likely to be much poorer and less successful than it would otherwise be.

    • Avi_G.
      July 6, 2012, 12:14 am

      anan,

      Why are you buying into lies and half-truths and expecting everyone else to buy them hook, line and snicker?

      And why are you using an Arab name when you’re clearly a Mist’arevet?

      • anan
        July 7, 2012, 2:22 pm

        What is a Mist’arevet?

        What half truths and lies are you referring to?

  5. MHughes976
    July 5, 2012, 1:50 pm

    ‘Divestment’ and ‘coexistence’ don’t seem like natural or logical opposites to me. If divestment were to ‘work’ I would hope that it would move the river-to-sea situation away from minority rule towards peaceful coexistence of all races.
    I’d say in answer to seafoid’s question that Palestine was chosen because of a certain interpretation of the principles, dangerous and mistaken in any event, of nineteenth century nationalism.

    • anan
      July 6, 2012, 1:28 am

      I oppose imposing sanctions against Israel because:
      1) these sanctions hurt Palestinians
      2) these sanctions reduce the influence of countries over Israelis and Palestinians, only true friends of both peoples can facilitate them achieving a just solution
      3) sanctions hurt civil society and the private sector; these need to be strengthened and persuaded that doing right by the Palestinians will in fact strengthen Israel.

      • Talkback
        July 8, 2012, 4:07 am

        I opposed imposing sanctions against South Africa because:
        1) these sanctions hurt blacks
        2) these sanctions reduce the influence of countries over Afrikaners and blacks, only true friends of both peoples can facilitate them achieving a just solution
        3) sanctions hurt civil society and the private sector; these need to be strengthened and persuaded that doing right by the Blacks will in fact strengthen South Africa.

        Long live the Apartheid … and hasbara clowns.

    • AllenBee
      July 6, 2012, 7:22 am

      Miko Peled on One State

      I caught Peled in DC a couple weeks ago; this clip captures the most important — and revolutionary — aspect of his thinking on One State: it is only attitudes that separates Israelis and Palestinians; they could merge into a fully functioning, mutually beneficial state in a very short time, if they (read, Israel) had the political will.

  6. talknic
    July 5, 2012, 3:11 pm

    anan July 5, 2012 at 1:07 pm

    Two of your links don’t work and WikI/Pedia is not a reliable source of information on the I/P conflict.

    Wikipedia editorial policy is not fact or truth, but second hand opinion, edited by a third hand and plagued with Greater Israel propagandists. Read the Talk pages.

    BTW you think stuff doesn’t get damaged in a war?

  7. anan
    July 6, 2012, 11:21 am

    Someone wrote the following responses to the comments on this blog comment thread:

    “(1) Israel IS excavating (a little, carefully) around the Dome of the Rock, but as far as I know, nothing has been destroyed and a lot of new sites have been found and opened to the public.

    (2) The million olive trees they said were destroyed is off by almost a million. There has been vandalism on both sides.

    Note: It’s really, really hard to permanently kill an olive tree. There was a long discussion of this point in Victor Davis Hanson’s book A War Like No Other. He was talking about how the Spartans tried and failed to destroy Athens’ olive trees in large numbers even after 20+ years of annual invasion and burning.

    (3) I think I’ve heard of two or three West Bank mosques which suffered fire damage. None were ancient. None were destroyed. There has been a lot of vandalism on both sides. I don’t approve of any of it. Israel recently convicted at least two of the vandals and sent them to jail. They could do more.

    (4) The Wiesenthal Center’s Museum of Tolerance parking lot is NOT being built on a Muslim cemetary. See http://www.wiesenthal.com/site… . It’s just not true.

    (5) Israel routinely destroys buildings in the West Bank which lack building permits. This includes Jewish buildings.

    There’s plenty of room to criticize Israel, but they just simply are not destroying other people’s ancient shrines, tombs and cemeteries.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    I don’t know all the facts. However it seems like most here are preaching to the choir. How does that help Palestinians? Wouldn’t you help Palestinians better by reaching out to a larger group of people.

    The way I would say it is, doing right by Palestinians will benefit Israelis and make Israelis more successful. And go from there.

    • Blake
      July 7, 2012, 3:45 pm

      “Israel is nothing but a large collection of ethnic enclaves. “Arim Meoravot” is Hebrew for “Mixed Cities,” cities where Palestinians and Jews live together; Haifa, Jerusalem, Lod, and Ramle are examples of these. Yet, this term is just wishful thinking. On the neighborhood level, people live in ethnic enclaves. One will find Bedouin, Druze, Circassian, Palestinian, Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Iraqi, Iranian, Moroccan, and a thousand more ethnic neighborhoods. People would seldom mix. The State of Israel encourages that; divide and conquer is its favored tactic.” – Roy Tov.

    • straightline
      July 7, 2012, 10:21 pm

      The way this site helps is, in part, by allowing the Ziobots to show their true colours.
      You are spouting the usual hasbarist nonsense.

      Re permits – see
      http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/un-much-of-west-bank-closed-to-palestinian-building-1.2053

      “Israel effectively allows Palestinians to build in only 1 percent of Area C, the 60 percent of the West Bank over which it retains full control, according to a new report by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.

      “The report also said that so far this year Israel has demolished 180 Palestinian structures in Area C. As a result, 319 Palestinians, including 167 children, have lost their homes.

      “Among the destroyed structures were 56 residential buildings, including tents and tin shacks; 70 animal shelters; 21 traditional outdoor taboun ovens; seven water pools, or uncovered cisterns; and two partially built cisterns.

      “The report stated that due to the severe Israeli restrictions, Palestinians have no choice but to build without permits. In 70 percent of Area C (44 percent of the West Bank), Palestinian building is entirely forbidden, as this land is earmarked for the settlements, the army, nature reserves or a buffer zone around the separation fence. In the remaining 30 percent, construction is theoretically possible, but getting a permit is so difficult as to be practically impossible. Hence effectively, Palestinians can build freely on only 1 percent of Area C – most of which is already totally built over.”

    • Light
      July 8, 2012, 5:53 pm

      ” I don’t know all the facts”

      Your posts are certainly devoid of them. You must think people who read and post on Mondoweiss are idiots. Your childest hasbara may work at an AIPAC convention but not here.

      “There’s plenty of room to criticize Israel, but they just simply are not destroying other people’s ancient shrines, tombs and cemeteries.”

      http://www.haaretz.com/news/mosque-vandalized-as-settlers-attack-palestinian-village-1.284247

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7YxQFSxdWc

      http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/16/world/middleeast/settlers-attack-after-demolitions-at-outpost.html

      “Note: It’s really, really hard to permanently kill an olive tree”

      http://theonlydemocracy.org/?attachment_id=1270

  8. Djinn
    July 8, 2012, 12:11 am

    Anan you are demonstrably ignorant of many facts, and you seem to be suggesting that in order to “reach out” to other ignorant and/or bigoted people, MW readers should not correct your incorrect assertions? How would that help anyone?

    • Talkback
      July 8, 2012, 4:40 am

      No, Anan is not ignorant of the facts. “I didn’t know” is just his or her way of saying “Damn, they know to much”.

      I know the whole peacefully sounding “The Israel Project” approach.
      “only true friends of both peoples can facilitate them achieving a just solution”
      “Israel recently … They could do more.”
      “There’s plenty of room to criticize Israel, but …”
      “How does that help Palestinians?” (As if Anan really cares)

  9. anan
    July 14, 2012, 2:32 pm

    It seems like some people here do not no about Hong Kong are are jealous of Hong Kong.

    Hong Kong SAR has its own passport and autonomy within the Chinese orbit. One country, two systems.

    Hong Kong decides on its monetary policy (currency board), economic policy and its national reserves.

    For example it was Hong Kong that decided in 1998 to intervene in the markets and buy equities. It was Hong Kong that in 1998 made its own decisions regarding how to bail out countries in the Asian financial crisis. Similarly Hong Kong made its own decisions in the 2001-2002 economic crisis.

    Hong Kong was beginning to take over England in the 1990s. There were many articles in the 1990s about whether China was taking over Hong Kong or whether Hong Kong was taking over China.

    MRW wrote: “And this is just stupid: “When Palestinians have more leverage, then the Palestinians will have justice.” Justice is not dependent on a financial index.”

    Actually MRW, economic power does provide influence in our interdependent globalized economy. If the Palestinians were rich, you better bet the Israelis would treat them differently.

    American wrote: “It doesn’t do much for the average Chinese as only 19% of Hong Kong residents have any college education. It’s basically a gated community for the world financiers where the majority labor force serves the 1%.
    No doubt what you’d like to see for Palestine…”

    Obviously someone doesn’t know about Hong Kong. ;-) Yes, Hong Kong has limited College seats. This is why many Hong Kong residents go to college outside Hong Kong. Hong Kong’s education system isn’t perfect. But is Hong Kong’s education system better than Israel’s, Palestine’s and America’s? Compare Hong Kong’s test scores in 12th grade exam (HKDSE) with 12th grade test scores in other countries.

    I think Palestine would be very fortunate to be as successful as Hong Kong. If it were, then Israel would be forced to listen very carefully to all of Palestine’s demands.

    1% . . . what is that suppose to mean. Please. This communist talk doesn’t sit well with most of the world’s 7.1 billion people.

    • Roya
      July 14, 2012, 8:47 pm

      Did you know that German almost became the official language of the U.S.?

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