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Literary hero Yossi Klein Halevi says anti-Zionist Jews aren’t Jewish

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Every couple of years a pro-Israel book comes out that gets red carpet treatment in American Jewish circles. That was true for Ari Shavit’s 2013 book, My Promised Land. Now it’s happening with Yossi Klein Halevi and Letters to My Palestinian Neighbor.

Halevi appeared at the J Street conference this spring, and on an AIPAC tour, too. He did an event with David Gregory, another with Abigail Pogrebin and a Muslim imam sponsored by the Jewish Federations. Liberals adore him: Cokie Roberts gave him a fulsome blurb (“Letters to My Palestinian Neighbor offers a model… for Middle East peacemaking”). And Halevi has been hailed as a guide by New York Times editors Jodi Rudoren and Bari Weiss at various Jewish gatherings.

One thing these folks don’t seem to notice is that Halevi, who moved to occupied East Jerusalem from Brooklyn more than 30 years ago, is such a fervent Jewish nationalist that he does not consider anti-Zionists to be Jews. Halevi wants support and understanding from American Jews; but if you are against the existence of a Jewish state, or have concluded that Jewish sovereignty hasn’t worked out for Palestinians or Jews– Halevi says you’re not a Jew.

In his book he writes that Judaism cannot now be separated from Zionism.

Is it possible, as anti-Zionists insist, to separate Zionism from Judaism? Is Zionism mere “politics,” as opposed to Judaism, which is authentic “religion”?…

If by Zionism one means the Jewish attachment to the land of Israel and the dream of renewing Jewish sovereignty in our place of origin, then there is no Judaism without Zionism. Judaism isn’t only a set of rituals and rules but a vision linked to a place. Modern movements that created forms of Judaism severed from the love of the land and dream of return all ended in failure.

By the time the state was established, anti-Zionism had become peripheral in Jewish life. Aside from a vocal fringe, most ultra-Orthodox Jews made their peace with a Jewish state. Israel’s Declaration of Independence was signed by representatives of almost the entire spectrum of the Jewish community–from ultra-Orthodox to Communists. That document attests to the legitimacy, within the Jewish people, of the state created by Zionism.

In recent years, there have been renewed attempts, especially on the fringes of the Diaspora left, to create a Jewish identity severed from Israel. But with nearly half the world’s Jews living in a thriving Jewish-majority state, that debate has long since been resolved. If in the past one couldn’t separate the land of Israel from Jewish life, today the same holds true for the state of Israel.

So if you don’t accept the idea of a Jewish state, you’re not a Jew.

During an appearance at Duke University last fall, Halevi filled in the point. He said it was OK for American Jews to criticize Israel about its religious practices at the Western Wall, but not about its security practices. And again, anti-Zionists are not part of the Jewish community.

Tough love is legitimate. when the love is evident. I would make a distinction between a group like J Street and Jewish Voice for Peace. I don’t agree with J Street on a whole range of issues, especially on the Iran Deal. But J Street is part of a normative Jewish conversation. Jewish Voice for Peace, supporters of BDS [Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions] to my mind have placed themselves outside the confines of the Jewish community.

Every community is defined by its red lines. I believe that in our Israel conversation we need to have low red lines. But we still need red lines, and groups, individuals, who actively support Israel’s enemies,who support effectively the destruction of the Jewish state, these are voices that should have no place in our communal conversation. And so the question of tough and love, there needs to be a balance.

Halevi also said that it worries him that more and more American Jews are opting out of the relationship with Israel, because American Jews need to be engaged with Israel right now to save Israel from the ultra-Orthodox, who have done the least to build the Jewish state but are being “anti-Zionist” in their efforts to limit access to the western wall. BTW, others have said the same thing to American Jews: Shut up about who we kill, but please weigh in on how we can pray.

You’d think Halevi’s intolerance about Who is a Jew might make him a bit too crispy for liberal audiences. But they overlook this intolerance. Halevi got a whole session to speak about his book at J Street this year. J Street obeys Halevi’s norms– inasmuch as it features a lot of center-right Zionists, including Tzipi Livni, who lied about the Gaza slaughter; but it excludes members of JVP (though Leanne Gale snuck in with some pro-BDS talk, and Jeremy Ben-Ami always says I’m part of the Jewish community).

J Street accepts Halevi’s red lines because: These are the norms of the American Jewish establishment. Being Jewish entails being Zionist. That conflation is now being undermined on a number of fronts by younger Jews who don’t like the way the Jewish state behaves in their name. But a lot of older Jews haven’t gotten the memo, or they’re in denial (“Where did we go wrong in our homes and schools?”).

P.S. Halevi reminds me of Shavit because Shavit was also heralded till his provincialism caught up with him. Nathan Thrall exposed Shavit’s rightwing Zionism in LRB; Reja-e Busailah showed that Shavit’s narration of the Lydda expulsion was insufficient and irresponsible; we did a piece about Shavit’s adoration of “sex in the toilets” in Israel.

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217 Responses

  1. John O
    John O
    June 8, 2018, 1:49 pm

    “Every community is defined by its red lines. I believe that in our Israel conversation we need to have low red lines. But we still need red lines, and groups, individuals, who actively support Israel’s enemies,who support effectively the destruction of the Jewish state, these are voices that should have no place in our communal conversation. And so the question of tough and love, there needs to be a balance.”

    Channelling his inner Donald Trump there. Or is it just translated from the original Klingon?

  2. inbound39
    inbound39
    June 8, 2018, 4:53 pm

    Halevi misses the point that if Israel was not running an illegal and criminal occupation and running around murdering hundreds of Palestinians and destroying their homes,villages and stealing their land that people would not dislike Israeli’s as much as they do. Halevi is just another Israeli in total denial.What Israel has to offer no one in the majority globally wants as its cost is far too high.

  3. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    June 8, 2018, 5:05 pm

    The chasm between a Yossi Klein Halevy and a Phil Weiss is self apparent. Halevy declares Weiss to be outside the community and Weiss says, “You don’t get to define the community.”

    Seems like this is not an argument anyone will win. All you can do is ask, Whose side are you on. if you are closer to Max Blumenthal than to Yossi Klein Halevy you will find yourself in one crowd and if the opposite, the other. I suppose there are some who feel equidistant to both, but probably very few.

    I think there are visions of the future that are more peace oriented than Halevy’s. (the anonymous military officer who spoke off the record about “now is the time to make a deal with Hamas”, is not something that Halevy mentions in his noncritique of the policy towards Gaza.)

    • Maghlawatan
      Maghlawatan
      June 8, 2018, 5:13 pm

      How did Judaism historically deal with dissent ?
      Zionism is puerile. Expelling dissenters won’t stop the Götterdämmerung.

      • Keith
        Keith
        June 8, 2018, 5:58 pm

        MAGHLAWATAN- “How did Judaism historically deal with dissent ?”

        Harshly, as did Christianity prior to modernity. During the period of Classical (medieval) Judaism, the Jewish community usually had considerable autonomy within the surrounding Gentile communities. The Head Rabbi called the shots, collected taxes and administered discipline including capital punishment. Prior to the separation of church and state, religion was no joke, blasphemy a serious crime. Also, most of the time, atheism was not an option. A book I continue to recommend is “Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The weight of Three Thousand Years” by Israel Shahak.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 8, 2018, 7:46 pm

        “Expelling dissenters won’t stop…”

        That’s right, when there are about 2 million Jews left, 100% of them will be Zionist.

        Of course, each one will have to give two or three times as much, to make up for the others. But that doesn’t matter.

        Why, if there were only a million or two Jews left, Israel would be just as. Hell, it’d be more than!

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        June 9, 2018, 1:46 am

        Keith

        Organisations with zero toleration fror dissent , constructive criticism or new ideas do not survive

        In the 1800s or whenever there was a reorganisation into Reform, Conservative and Orthodox. Even Orthodox changed over time.

        Being honest and open is how things change.
        Zionism is a cult where honesty is an existential threat.

        Halevi Klein is pathetic. If you don’t support death squads you can’t be Jewish. Why isn’t he ridiculed for this bs?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        June 9, 2018, 2:11 am

        Ask Benedict Spinoza.

      • Keith
        Keith
        June 9, 2018, 11:19 am

        ROHA- “Ask Benedict Spinoza.”

        Yes, and Spinoza lived in a relatively cosmopolitan environment.

      • Keith
        Keith
        June 9, 2018, 2:15 pm

        MAGHLAWATAN- “Organisations with zero toleration fror dissent , constructive criticism or new ideas do not survive”

        Specifying a “zero” toleration for dissent is stacking the deck, isn’t it? Most organizations rely upon adherence to official mythology to achieve internal solidarity among its members, with dissent, etc, primarily tolerated among the elites who establish and enforce organizational direction. In the past, monarchy existed for millennium based upon the lie that the monarch ruled by divine right, atheism tantamount to treason. Nowadays, we have a more dynamic environment where rapid change requires greater tolerance for dissent, however, let us not exaggerate the extent to which rival ideologies and narratives are tolerated. We live in violent times, the power dynamics of the capitalist political economy greatly misrepresented, our current global empire not discussed except at the margins or among the elites. Our society is shaped by myths, myth-history, and other misrepresentations of reality. To what degree humans are even capable of dealing with the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is debatable. It may well be that bullshit is the magic ingredient that allows societies to function at all. A quote for you.

        “We live entangled in webs of endless deceit, often self-deceit, but with a little honest effort, it is possible to extricate ourselves from them. If we do, we will see a world that is rather different from the one presented to us by a remarkably effective ideological system, a world that is much uglier, often horrifying.” (Noam Chomsky)

      • Naftush
        Naftush
        June 10, 2018, 7:01 am

        Keith and (mainly) other readers, premodern Jewish communities weren’t run by chief rabbis. Chief rabbis were appointed by lay public bodies (kahals). And neither they nor the kahal nor anyone else administered anything approaching capital punishment. If your source is Shahak, then join the many who repudiate him from A to Z, which are largely anyone to the right of Gilad Atzmon.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 10, 2018, 2:45 pm

        “Keith and (mainly) other readers, premodern Jewish communities weren’t run by chief rabbis. Chief rabbis were appointed by lay public bodies…blah, blah”

        While I appreciate your desire not to air our dirty laundry before the world, the facts are out there, “Naftush”

        “Naftush”, trying to put a good face on a dictatorial and corrupt system of religious tyranny won’t do. The religious oppression of Jews by their own religious authorities in cooperation with the non-Jewish power structures

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 10, 2018, 2:48 pm

        “In the 1800s or whenever there was a reorganisation into Reform, Conservative and Orthodox.”

        And almost every denomination was eventually suborned by Zionism.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        June 10, 2018, 3:21 pm

        Naftush, you don’t know the 101 of your “own” stuff.

        Try telling that nonsense to ignoramuses like you, or to the Ottoman Sultan. Under the Ottoman “millet” legislation (which, by the way, continues to be effective in the theocratic Zionist entity for the definition of “nationalities” ) each “nation” was defined by its nominal religion (religion-at-birth) and the Grand Chacham was fully the cock of his dunghill, with the right to have anyone officially defined “Jewish” jailed or even hanged. He only was accountable to the Sultan. This was in full force until the mid-19th Century.

        I understand that as Zionists your job is to spread manure but is it a good idea, when you do propaganda, to insult your readership by assigning it thinking-impaired ignoramuses?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 10, 2018, 7:29 pm

        ” then join the many who repudiate him from A to Z,”

        You tell him, “Naftush”! If there is one absolute power Judaism possesses in abundance it is the ability to tell people what and how to think of us, and what they can say about us. You just keep using that power, “Naftush”, it’s never failed us.

      • Keith
        Keith
        June 10, 2018, 8:07 pm

        NAFTUSH- ” And neither they nor the kahal nor anyone else administered anything approaching capital punishment.”

        Some real history for you:

        “Since the time of the late Roman Empire, Jewish communities had considerable legal powers over their members. Not only powers which arise through voluntary mobilization of social pressure (for example refusal to have any dealing whatsoever with an excommunicated Jew or even to bury his body), but a power of naked coercion: to flog, to imprison, to expel – all this could be inflicted quite legally on an individual Jew by the rabbinical courts for all kinds of offenses. In many countries – Spain and Poland are notable examples – even capital punishment could be and was inflicted, sometimes using particularly cruel methods such as flogging to death. All this was not only permitted but positively encouraged by the state authorities in both Christian and Muslim countries, who besides their general interest in preserving ‘law and order’ had in some cases a more direct financial interest as well.
        ….
        This was the most important social fact of Jewish existence before the advent of the modern state: observance of the religious laws of Judaism, as well as their inculcation through education, were enforced on Jews by physical coercion, from which one could only escape by conversion to the religion of the majority, amounting in the circumstances to a total social break and for that reason very impracticable, except during a religious crisis.”
        (p14, 15, “Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years,” Israel Shahak)

        NAFTUSH- ” If your source is Shahak, then join the many who repudiate him from A to Z….”

        Shahak is your moral and intellectual superior, frequently quoted by people such as Noam Chomsky. Two quotes for you.

        “Fortunately, the voice of reason is alive and well, and in Israel, of all places. From Jerusalem, Israel Shahak never ceases to analyze not only the dismal politics of Israel today but the Talmud itself, and the effect of the entire rabbinical tradition on a small state that the right-wing rabbinate means to turn into a theocracy for Jews only….

        Needless to say, Israel’s authorities deplore Shahak…..Those who heed him will certainly be wiser and – dare I say it? – better. He is the latest, if not the last, of the great prophets.” (Gore Vidal)

        “Shahak is a very brave man who should be honored for his service to humanity. But in today’s world the example of indefatigable work, unrelenting moral energy, and intellectual brilliance that he has set are an embarrassment to the status quo, and to everyone for whom the word ‘controversial’ means ‘unwelcome’ and ‘unsettling’.” (Edward Said)

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        June 10, 2018, 10:47 pm

        Keith

        Jewish religious culture has a lot of world experience , as you would expect

        Hillel the Elder saw a corpse floating in water and declared

        https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2011/jewish/Chapter-Two.htm
        6. “You were drowned because you drowned others. Those who drowned you will themselves be drowned” (Pirkei Avot 2:6).

        https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2099/jewish/Chapter-Five.htm
        10. There are four types of people: One who says, “What is mine is yours, and what is yours is mine” is a boor. One who says “What is mine is mine, and what is yours is yours” — this is a median characteristic; others say that this is the character of a Sodomite. One who says, “What is mine is yours, and what is yours is yours” is a chassid (pious person). And one who says “What is mine is mine, and what is yours is mine” is wicked.(Pirkei Avot 5:10).

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 11, 2018, 3:06 pm

        @m

        Hillel the elder had never seen the mosque built on top of the temple. Maybe he would have approved though he was referring to jews. wondering if there is any equivalent in Islam where what’s theirs is ours. the israeli govt fulfilled hillels points when they opened Jerusalem to christian, jewish, muslim, bahai prayer . The temple mount is ours but it’s yours under control of the waqf.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 12, 2018, 12:12 pm

        ” from which one could only escape by conversion to the religion of the majority,”

        IF, if, the “religion of the majority” was accepting Jewish converts at that time and place.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      June 8, 2018, 8:37 pm

      “The chasm between a Yossi Klein Halevy and a Phil Weiss is self apparent.” “Yonah Fredman”

      Yes, “Yonah”, I’ve noticed that.
      Phil never goes around grandly declaring who is and isn’t Jewish.
      Phil never declares excommunications of other Jews. He may not agree with them, but Phil never tries to take their Judaism away from them.

      “Yonah” you are right, I’m starting to get very suspicious of Phil. Do you think he’s really a Jew? Sure doesn’t act like one. Who ever heard of a Jew who didn’t think he was the arbiter of every other Jew’s Jewishness?

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        June 9, 2018, 10:19 am

        Yes, Mooser, I noticed. Maybe Halevy thinks he’s the Jewish Pope?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 10, 2018, 2:25 pm

        “Maybe Halevy thinks he’s the Jewish Pope?”

        No, not a “Pope”. The Pope is the spiritual head of the Catholic Church, and there’s only one of him at a time, (1378 to 1417 notwithstanding)
        We’re all Chief Rabbis, every one of us.

    • Marnie
      Marnie
      June 9, 2018, 2:49 am

      Your obsessive jealousy of Phil Weiss is repulsive and nauseating. Can you not make a single comment without riding on Phil’s coattails?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 9, 2018, 2:03 pm

        “Your obsessive jealousy of Phil Weiss is repulsive and nauseating.”

        But we wouldn’t know a thing about “Yonah’s” obsessive jealousy if Phil Weiss didn’t have a blog with a comment section. Is there no limit to Phil’s evil machinations?

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 10, 2018, 10:33 pm

        @n

        I also failed to note any quote by which halevy said anybody was “not a jew” as PW claims. He did claim an end to any idea of seperating zionism from jews. Just because somebody is a so-called progressive and far left activist and happens to own one of the more popular (and officially labeled) ‘hate site’) anti-irael/zionist pro tyrannical mullah Iran web sites in the US and whose commentary section daily contains some of the most creative vitriolic jew-hating snippets and accusations around the web does not make somebody no longer a jew.

        However, if an abundance of jew hating commenters here had their druthers pw would not be considered a jew just by virtue of the so-called khazzer ‘theory’ of eastern european jewish origin. in fact, a lot of folks here who support this dubious khazzer origin don’t consider halevy,, Netanyahu or even Sarah Barnhart a jew let alone little ‘ol PW.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 11, 2018, 12:22 pm

        “a lot of folks here who support this dubious khazzer origin don’t consider halevy,, Netanyahu or even Sarah Barnhart a jew let alone little ‘ol PW.”

        You know, you’re right, they probably just think of all those folks as various people. Widely varying individuals.

        But you feel it’s very important we identify all of them as “Jews”. Why is that?

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 11, 2018, 3:08 pm

        @mssr

        No more important then identifying oneself as palestinian I suppose.

        and your wrong, they identify askinasi jews as being khazzer. of some turkic origin as in not having fled judea, samaria, Israel across Africa, up through spain and on into eastern europe. And based on a flimsy unproven story about a supposed khazzer king who may or may not have converted to judaism after defeat by arab marauders.

  4. Nathan
    Nathan
    June 8, 2018, 5:23 pm

    I read the quotes given in this article, and I didn’t find the sentence in which Yossi Klein Halevi says that anti-Zionist Jews aren’t Jewish. I also noticed that the headline didn’t place the statement in quotation marks either, indicating that the editor is aware that there isn’t such a quote.

    What did Mr Halevi say (based on the quotes given in this article)? For example, he said that “there is no Judaism without Zionism”. Moreover he claimed that supporters of BDS “have placed themselves outside the confines of the Jewish community”. Now, obviously, one can argue with Mr Halevi, claiming that there is Judaism without Zionism or that BDS supporters are part of the Jewish community – but, still, it is simply untrue that he said “if you don’t accept the idea of a Jewish state, you’re not a Jew”. What misleading reporting.

    It’s an old trick of the anti-Zionists to pretend that the word “Judaism” means “Jews”. If you read the website of the American Council for Judaism, you can see there their silly claim that “Judaism is not a nationality”. Yes, we know that Judaism is a religion. But what about the Jews? Do they define themselves as a national community? Well, that’s the debate.

    Mr Halevi spoke about Judaism, and he spoke about Zionism’s being mainstream in the Jewish community. He did not say that the anti-Zionists are not Jews.

    In this article, we learn that Mr Halevi moved to “occupied East Jerusalem”. Ordinarily, one would conclude that West Jerusalem is therefore not occupied territory, right? However, since this is an anti-Israel website, there might be different rules of logic. In the article of Tom Suarez, for example, he complains that Jaffa doesn’t appear as part of the Arab state in the Partition Plan on some propaganda poster, and you would naturally think that such a complaint indicates that he supports the Partition Plan (and therefore Jaffa should be marked clearly as part of the Arab state). But, strangely, he rejects the Partition Plan. Anyway, I’d be curious to find out if “occupied East Jerusalem” means that Mondoweiss recognizes West Jerusalem as part of Israel (i.e. not occupied) – or if “occupied East Jerusalem” means that everything else is also occupied.

    • annie
      annie
      June 8, 2018, 7:14 pm

      It’s an old trick of the anti-Zionists to pretend that the word “Judaism” means “Jews”.

      oh, i think i recall yonah (and other zionists) make a similar argument, not sure i’d characterize this as an anti zionist trick.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        June 8, 2018, 10:20 pm

        I think Halevi is labeling these Jews as traitors.

        Rabbi Michael Lerner of Tikkun Magazine once said that the 1980’s were the saddest decade for judaism in hundreds of years. Obviously he did not confuse Judaism and jews, for a sadder decade for Jews was 40 years before. I think that the shoah was an abyss and the broken heart of many Jews cannot help but be seen as an event central to judaism of today. The books of tanach, certainly for example the book of lamentation implies a Jewish people aspect to judaism.

        On the other hand, Too much harm was done to the Palestinians to attribute purity of morality in the struggle for the land. The purity of the suffering is not balanced out by the purity of the military response. But because halevi takes the shoah seriously, he embraces Israel with equal import, not recognizing the difference between suffering and inflicting suffering. I am willing to accept the necessity of the zionist Jewish response, but such acceptance cannot override the objection to violence, which must always raise concerns, even if we decide to choose violence, we must allow bleeding hearts to have their say, because violence is an evil, maybe necessary some times, but still an evil.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        June 9, 2018, 11:16 am

        “Too much harm was done to the Palestinians to attribute purity of morality in the struggle for the land. ”

        What would have been the right amount of harm?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 9, 2018, 1:37 pm

        “What would have been the right amount of harm?”

        Gosh-durn it all, “RoHa”, doesn’t it occur to you that after “eons” of Jewish suffering we Jews know good and goddam well how much the Palestinians need to suffer?

        Why, I can’t think of a people better prepared to make that judgement.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 9, 2018, 2:09 pm

        “I think Halevi is labeling these Jews as traitors.”

        We’re gonna need a lot of blindfolds, cigarettes, and bullets. And a nice thick wall to stand the traitors against.

        That’ll “pour encourager the hell out of les autres

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        June 9, 2018, 7:45 pm

        Cigarettes? Shooting them isn’t enough, you want to give them lung cancer as well?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 10, 2018, 7:22 pm

        “we must allow bleeding hearts to have their say, because violence is an evil, maybe necessary some times, but still an evil.” “Yonah Fredman”

        Oh, look! “Yonah” has a sophisticated new attitude toward the Holocaust and pogroms: “necessary some times” and meriting nothing beyond allowing “bleeding hearts to have their say”.

      • eljay
        eljay
        June 10, 2018, 8:38 pm

        || Yonah Fredman: … I am willing to accept the necessity of the zionist Jewish response, but such acceptance cannot override the objection to violence, which must always raise concerns, even if we decide to choose violence, we must allow bleeding hearts to have their say, because violence is an evil, maybe necessary some times, but still an evil. ||

        jon s says massacre is acceptable if limited to people subjectively deemed to be not-innocent.
        y.f. says evil – even if objectionable – is acceptable when subjectively deemed to be necessary.

        What is it with Zionists and their impulse to undermine human rights and international laws and the protections they are meant to afford all people including Jews.

        Why do Zionists insist on hating Jews so much?!

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 10, 2018, 11:21 pm

        @y

        where did halevy label anybody a traitor? he did mention there are small (implied, insignificant) groups that will maintain the separation between zionism and jews in the Jewish nation. halevy, in my view, just seems to be stating the obvious. like, the USA is not returning the first nations land they stole(and which so many mw commenters are living and thriving on) or, like nobody here is going to clamour for putin to return crimea, china- tibet, taiwan, etc.

        the nicest way I could put it is:

        Phil is a jewish rebel who used to be a journalist but is now an expert pro-Palestinian, pro-hamas, pro-hezbollah,pro-tyrannical mullah controlled islamic iran propagandist.

        So, other then the ridiculous assumption I get paid to write this entertaining invective, I suppose I would be considered much more heinous by the average mw commenter.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 11, 2018, 11:20 am

        “So, other then the ridiculous assumption I get paid to write this…”

        Thank you “DaBakr”! Thank you. Mondo has played hell with my Jewish ethnocentrism, but at least I can still believe we insist on getting our money’s worth.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 11, 2018, 3:16 pm

        @mssr

        you used to be an ethnocentric jew and pw convinced you otherwise? amazing.

        and at least it’s entertaining to me. just figured it must be a frustrating place if the only arguing is between anti-zionist israel hating left wingers and anti-zionist libertarians who hate israel.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        June 11, 2018, 8:21 pm

        Mooser,

        ddbkrr has only himself to blame if he’s not getting paid. I imagine the Prime Minister’s Office, the Diaspora and Propaganda Ministry and the Hasebara Foundation do a minimal quality check before writing the checks. Even these guys would have some minimal requirements, don’t you think?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 12, 2018, 1:30 pm

        “Even these guys would have some minimal requirements, don’t you think?”

        Just one. Anybody else who uses speech or writing to inform or persuade has to think about what they say, and how they say it. They also must try to estimate the effect their words have. But those strictures are not incumbent on Zionists.
        The only requirement is that they say something. That is a hell of an advantage in debate or discourse.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 13, 2018, 11:48 pm

        @e. @msr

        I am sure, especially with college students trained to engage hostile Zionist haters three are certain talking points and rules for engagement.

        On the other hand, I just came across MW a few years back and became captivated by the assortment of regular commenters who tame the gamut from outright blatent (but just barely covert) jew haters, Zionist/israel haters who refuse to believe that singling out Israel from the 200+ nations from armchairs in mostly comfortable nations has anything to do with jew hating even though their defense is as flimsy as gossamer and I guess, they are a ashamed to admit the hate the vast majority of world Jews who most definitely identify as zionist. Then there are the debaters, pseudo-academics who make valid points with no balancing pov. And yes, some Israeli hasbara dis the same.

        However, I write here when I do because I find human nature to be both predictable and preposterous. I like to fill in the blanks left out of the typical cometary. Of course I intend to irritate those that need irritating. I don’t think Israel is infallible or completely innocent. I do think it will continue to do what it must to continue and prosper (it’s GDP is very high and international clients are scrambling for Israeli tech.). The Palestinian also seem hell bent on not negotiating, violent protests and the insistence they have the clout to negotiate as an equal partner and not one that was vanquished 7 times. And the sad thing is- they could have had their West Bank/gaza connected state but won’t think about a deal until Israel turns over all of the Eastern formerly jewish sector of jerusalem and the wall which will never happen without an all out conflagration. And worse yet, they area standing firm by ror even though they have had to accept that the jews in Israel were forced, kicked and chased out of their own lands after’48. They were absorbed into Israel while not one of your brethren would do the same for you. Israel has made clear that at the most a symbolic number of refugees can return but they will not submit to an obvious two-faced scam demanding the return of millions, demanding equal treatment and then stepping Israel of its Jewish quality, nature and sovereignty. It is just not going to happen in a1000 years. BDS America can play as coy as they want with their supposedly’non-committal’ stance on ror. They just say they will leave it to the palestinians which is exactly like saying we have no opinions on the survival of buffalo but we support allowing millions of wolves and pumas into their grazing land. The entire idea of the creation of Israel was so that the tiny country will be a bastion of democracy but will maintain Jewish sovereignty for all time. If you want to pretend otherwise, take a lemon and eat it

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 14, 2018, 3:40 pm

        “Dabakr” , really, you didn’t have to validate my comment that quickly. But thanks.

        Remember, “Dabakr” it’s not what you say or how you say it, it’s the fact that you said it which matters.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 14, 2018, 10:07 pm

        @mssr

        I’m a first responder.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 15, 2018, 4:15 am

        “I’m a first responder.”

        You bet. You’ve always got a premature expostulation ready.

    • eljay
      eljay
      June 8, 2018, 7:31 pm

      || Nathan: … It’s an old trick of the anti-Zionists to pretend that the word “Judaism” means “Jews”. … ||

      I’ve never heard of this “old trick” that “Judaism” means “Jews”.

      But regardless of Zionism’s smoke-and-mirrors tricks to the contrary, it is a fact that Jewish is a religion-based identity that can only be acquired by:
      – undergoing a religious conversion to Judaism; or
      – being descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 8, 2018, 8:47 pm

        “– being descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.”

        Which brings us back to the first item on the list. There’s no getting around it.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      June 8, 2018, 7:48 pm

      “It’s an old trick of the anti-Zionists to pretend that the word “Judaism” means “Jews”. “Nathan”

      So you are calling Yossi Klein an “anti-Zionist?

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      June 8, 2018, 10:15 pm

      “Yes, we know that Judaism is a religion. But what about the Jews? Do they define themselves as a national community? Well, that’s the debate.”

      And if Jews define themselves as a “national community” do other “national communities” get to decide how they wish to deal with this alien and adversarial “national community” in their midst?
      Or do they just have to accept this parasitical relationship, until all their wealth and power has been transferred to the Jewish “national community”?

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        June 9, 2018, 10:33 am

        WE would love a response to Mooser’s question.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        June 9, 2018, 7:45 pm

        Answer, anyone?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        June 10, 2018, 6:48 pm

        No answer from the usual suspects yet. Probably they are working on it, and taking time to check that their logic is faultless, their conditionals well formed, and every comma is in right place. Then they’ll show us.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        June 11, 2018, 3:57 am

        RoHa

        I hereby promise to refrain from any disapproval or even sniffing if and when a Jewish state is established on Antarctica, provided the responsible powers and the penguins sign off.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        June 11, 2018, 7:54 am

        I’d prefer it not to be on one of the Australian bits, but that still leaves a large chunk of territory.

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        June 11, 2018, 10:02 am

        Enjoy your fantasies, guys. Meanwhile, Israel’s Jewish population isn’t going anywhere. In fact, it will be increasing at an extraordinarily high rate.

        Israel’s demographic future: Crowded and very religious

        https://www.jta.org/2017/05/19/news-opinion/israel-middle-east/israels-demographic-future-crowded-and-very-religious

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 11, 2018, 11:21 am

        “Israel’s demographic future: Crowded and very religious”

        Gee, sounds like a ghetto.

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        June 11, 2018, 11:35 am

        Mooser: …sounds like a ghetto.
        ——————————

        Yep. A globally trading, territorially expanding, nuclear-armed ghetto.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 11, 2018, 12:25 pm

        “Yep. A globally trading, territorially expanding, nuclear-armed ghetto.”

        With enough people to fill one fair-sized city, and up to ten million hostages all over the world. Although I have a feeling many of us will decline that honor.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 11, 2018, 3:26 pm

        Of course they can “decide”. If these hypothetical adversarial nations decide the way to deal with jews having a state in israel is to destroy it by constant warfare and israel destroys them instead then that is their choice to continue with war. if they decide to use international organizations to delegitimize this jewish nation then they should be prepared to lose the fundamental case in court. they could also decide to negotiate an end to the 100yr old conflict. But what sense would that make.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 11, 2018, 5:36 pm

        “If these hypothetical adversarial nations decide the way to deal with jews having a state”

        We’re not talking about Israel, we are talking about the “adversarial nations” that the great bulk, more than 2/3rds, of the “Jewish nation” live among.
        How are these nations supposed to deal with a “Jewish nation” with it’s own adversarial agenda living among them?

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        June 11, 2018, 8:41 pm

        A globally trading, territorially expanding, nuclear-armed ghetto.

        Exactly. That’s what guarantees increasingly powerful state enemies, in addition to the Palestinian resistance. That’s precisely what feeds my relative optimism.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        June 12, 2018, 12:50 am

        “How are these nations supposed to deal with a “Jewish nation” with it’s own adversarial agenda living among them?”

        Patience, Mooser. Possess your soul in peace.

        The answer is surely coming, and it’ll be a doozy.

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        June 12, 2018, 1:29 am

        What exactly is this “adversarial agenda” you guys are going on about?

      • Marnie
        Marnie
        June 12, 2018, 12:33 pm

        “Yep. A globally trading, territorially expanding, nuclear-armed ghetto.”

        Not much of a sales pitch sibiriak and it’s more ghetto than anything else. What a sick and very sad commentary. Doesn’t sound like candidates for God’s ‘chosen people’, but vile usurpers and identity thieves.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 12, 2018, 1:33 pm

        “What exactly is this “adversarial agenda” you guys are going on about?”

        The Jewish national agenda, of course. Or are Jews the only nationalism without one?

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        June 12, 2018, 2:30 pm

        Mooser: The Jewish national agenda…
        ————————-

        What’s on that agenda exactly? What’s so “adversarial” about it? IOW, what the f are you talking about?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 12, 2018, 3:00 pm

        “What’s on that agenda exactly”

        Zionism. You may have heard of it.

        And mishegos and mishpucha, but who does that hurt?

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        June 12, 2018, 4:54 pm

        Mooser: Zionism. You may have heard of it.
        —————

        Zionism is on the Zionist agenda.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 12, 2018, 5:22 pm

        “Zionism is on the Zionist agenda.”

        Whew! That is a relief to hear. I thought maybe Jews had something to do with it, and I was concerned.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        June 12, 2018, 6:35 pm

        Sibiriak,

        Mooser: Zionism. You may have heard of it.
        —————
        Zionism is on the Zionist agenda.

        Don’t bullshit us.
        Come back when the Zio are an ineffective minority.

      • Marnie
        Marnie
        June 13, 2018, 1:27 am

        “Enjoy your fantasies, guys. Meanwhile, Israel’s Jewish population isn’t going anywhere. In fact, it will be increasing at an extraordinarily high rate.”

        Typical zionist projection.

        I Wanted No More of It’ // Driven Out by Rising Extremism, More Israelis Are Leaving Orthodox Judaism

        Religious Zionists leaving the fold say they are increasingly accepted by their families, as community’s push for stricter observance and hard-line views leads more young people to become secular
        By Judy Maltz |  Jun 12, 2018 Haaretz

        F$$$king for the fatherland has lost it’s charm. Haval (not).

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 14, 2018, 12:23 am

        @mssr

        there were ghettos and then there are ghettos. Israel is not Warsaw or Lodz. My relatives aren’t being slaughtered and gassed by an organized industrial killing machine(Assad?). Arabs may try to and succeed killing us but it is nothing like the ghetto

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        June 14, 2018, 5:55 am

        Hmmmn. The “Jews are a nation” gang still haven’t replied to your question, Mooser. But no doubt, in the fullness of time, they will.

        In due course.

        At the appropriate moment.

        When conditions permit.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 14, 2018, 4:30 pm

        “In due course. At the appropriate moment. When conditions permit.”

        Of course they will. Have those who posit Jews as one nation and themselves as our leaders ever let us down yet?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        June 19, 2018, 10:28 pm

        Hmmmn. They are taking their time about it. Probably they are really busy with other things.

        We can be sure that they haven’t run away because they haven’t got an answer, can’t we?

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      June 9, 2018, 1:57 am

      “… we learn that Mr Halevi moved to “occupied East Jerusalem”. Ordinarily, one would conclude that West Jerusalem is therefore not occupied territory, right?”

      Wrong. Your logic is faulty.

      Applying an adjective or qualifier to part of a class of things does not in any way logically imply that there are members of the class to which the adjective or qualifier does not apply.

      Saying “He trudged through the cold snow” does not suggest that, with forethought, he could have picked a patch of warm snow, or, at least, not cold snow to trudge through.

      When I say “an abominable Frenchman” you surely cannot imagine that I imply there are some Frenchmen who are not abominable.

      “Occupied East Jerusalem” means “some Jerusalem is occupied”.

      In strict logic (as distinct from rhetorical trickery) “some X are Y” does not imply “some X are not Y”. “Some” means “one or more”, and may include “all”. We only say “all” when we know that all are included.

      So “occupied East Jerusalem” does not mean that West Jerusalem is not occupied.

      • Nathan
        Nathan
        June 10, 2018, 6:41 am

        RoHa – It’s obvious that in an anti-Israel publication, “occupied East Jerusalem” does not imply that West Jerusalem is not occupied. For people who regard the very existence of Israel to be illegitimate, everything is occupied. However, it should be noted that there is trickiness in using the term “occupied East Jerusalem” when one regards all of Jerusalem to be occupied. It’s the same trickiness as saying that “Israel must withdraw from the occupied territories” when you hold the position that Israel shouldn’t exist at all. You are misleading some of your readers who might “agree” with you (because they think that you mean withdrawal from the West Bank, and that’s that); but if they understood that you oppose the existence of Israel altogether, they wouldn’t agree.

        The anti-Israel position in the west is really the same (or nearly the same) as the Arab position. When you read an Arabic-language newspaper, (1) the entire country is occupied, (2) there is VERY little self-criticism (it’s as if there is no self-criticism at all), (3) all you hear are grievances and grievances and grievances, and (4) there is NEVER any proposal for solving the conflict. Obviously, these are the very same messages in all the anti-Israel publications in the west: No one has a proposal for ending the conflict (because that would legitimize Israel), so all we hear are grievances and grievances and grievances (without suggesting that rectifying these grievances would mean that the conflict has ended). Moreover, no one ever criticizes the Palestinians, because that would be seen as justifying some aspect of Israel’s position – and obviously there is a total rejection of a Jewish state in any territory whatsoever.

        I should add that all the Islamic symbolisms or codes are not understandable to the western anti-Israel people, so the Islamic message is always missing in the west. However, there is another difference. In the Arabic press, the messages are being presented to an audience that shares a common narrative. The anti-Israel crowd in the west (writing in English) has to take into account that some of the readership might not be quite as extreme and uncompromising. So, in an Arabic newspaper, it will generally just say “occupied Jerusalem” – and this includes Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Knesset. However, in English the anti-Israel publication will say “occupied East Jerusalem”, and in so doing you can mislead some of the readership into thinking that the issue at hand is just the conquest of 1967. For some reason, in propaganda one likes the illusion that a wide audience agrees to one’s point of view – even if this wide “agreement” is achieved through a deliberate misunderstanding.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        June 11, 2018, 2:08 am

        “It’s obvious that in an anti-Israel publication, “occupied East Jerusalem” does not imply that West Jerusalem is not occupied. ”

        It doesn’t imply it in any sort of publication.

        ” (4) there is NEVER any proposal for solving the conflict. ”

        Not a lot of point. Such proposals have been made, but ignored by the Israeli government. As Eljays says,

        “no Zionist will agree to any resolution to the I-P conflict that involves justice, accountability and equality because every Zionist wants Israel:
        – to remain a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”;
        – to keep as much as possible of what it has stolen;
        – to be absolved of its obligations under international law (incl. RoR); and
        – to be absolved of responsibility and accountability for its past and on-going (war) crimes.”

        But that is what is necessary to end the conflict.

        “there is a total rejection of a Jewish state in any territory whatsoever.”

        If such a thing were established peacefully on an empty bit of land, most people would not give more than a disapproving sniff.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 11, 2018, 3:39 pm

        @rha

        Taking the comments about a negotiated peace from a numbskull thick headed elj seriously is like using a mango to open a coconut. An absolutist who can only understand his own mediocre and true believing mindset. he cannot comprehend that jews are anything but a religious choice as if that has ever proven true throughout the past thousand years of history. he would prefer to ignore reality and history until his perceived arch enemy is destroyed. he must be very insecure with his own ethnic/cultural identity to spend so much energy denying another’s does not exist. a very poor and unintelligent way to strategize.

        That he’s ‘dedicated’ is not in question. dedicated to what is the problem for him.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 11, 2018, 4:56 pm

        ” he cannot comprehend that jews are anything but a religious choice as if that has ever proven true throughout the past thousand years of history.”

        Translated “DaBakr” mutter: ‘It’s the anti-Semitism of Gentiles and rigid segregation of religions which keeps people Jewish. Without that we are lost!’

      • eljay
        eljay
        June 11, 2018, 5:09 pm

        || @Daak: @rha

        Taking the comments about a negotiated peace from a numbskull thick headed elj seriously is like using a mango to open a coconut. An absolutist who can only understand his own mediocre and true believing mindset. … ||

        Da Baker, you say Da Sweetest things!  :-)

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        June 11, 2018, 7:29 pm

        DB, Eljay’s views on Jews do not reduce the value of his list of requirements for a just resolution. The two issues are logically distinct.

        As for his “ethnic/cultural” identity, I’m pretty sure he hasn’t got one. He’s Canadian.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 11, 2018, 10:09 pm

        @elj

        Well, I try to be polite to someone someone so devoted to their cause

      • eljay
        eljay
        June 12, 2018, 7:17 am

        || @aBar: @elj

        Well, I try to be polite to someone someone so devoted to their cause ||

        I appreciate your respect for my devotion to the universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality.

        If you weren’t so devoted to the cause of Jewish supremacism (Zionism), I might offer you my respect in return…but you are, so I won’t.

      • eljay
        eljay
        June 12, 2018, 7:22 am

        || RoHa: … As for his “ethnic/cultural” identity, I’m pretty sure he hasn’t got one. He’s Canadian. ||

        I am a blank slate.

        I used to have Italian, Croatian and Roman Catholic identities but I shed those because – just like the religion-based identity of Jewish – they were a choice.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 14, 2018, 12:36 am

        @elj

        So, whose stolen land are you living on? What places where you travel used to be cultural icons?
        Are you advocating for your government to return conquered, colonized and confiscated land?

        If you happen to be first nation I hope your familiar with @ryanbellicose , a native indigenous Canadian meta Indian who has a pretty different take on who exactly is indigenous in Israel. ( and he’s been writing on the Meta and Israel for years before he had anything but a local following. He may now work for a jewish org. But the tenor of his own dedication has not wavered since he was a teen. He has a pov however. You might respect him

        You sound a little like Rachel Dolan, the Seattle based NAACP director who made a conscious decision that though she was born a white Midwest girl she would now strictly identify as an African American because, you know, race is just a construct. I personally could care less if she chose to pass as a pygmy but I don’t think black or Hispanic, and neither are first nations peoples ready to accept rac, culture or ethnicity as a construct. But hey, white boy, they would love you in Gaza or Ramallah

      • eljay
        eljay
        June 14, 2018, 10:19 am

        || @aak: @elj

        So, whose stolen land are you living on? … ||

        It was not my choice to be born in Canada, but as far as I know the land I’ve been living on since I was born here ~50 years ago is not stolen.

        || … Are you advocating for your government to return conquered, colonized and confiscated land? … ||

        I want the Canadian government to honour – or to re-negotiate in good faith – the treaties signed with indigenous groups.

        || … You sound a little like Rachel Dolan, the Seattle based NAACP director who made a conscious decision that though she was born a white Midwest girl she would now strictly identify as an African American … ||

        Me: A white male who has chosen to shed his Italian, Croatian and Catholic identities.
        She: A white female who has decided that she is a black woman.

        Yeah, the similarities are unmistakeable.

        || … because, you know, race is just a construct. … ||

        If you say so. But it doesn’t change the fact that Jewish is a religion-based identity.

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      June 9, 2018, 8:57 am

      That pretzel that calls itself “Nathan” believes he’s laid a beautiful egg, here:

      Yes, we know that Judaism is a religion. But what about the Jews? Do they define themselves as a national community? Well, that’s the debate.

      Like saying if a mouse “defines itself” as a whale, then it is a whale.
      Who gives a shut? “Debate” my @$$

      • Naftush
        Naftush
        June 10, 2018, 7:07 am

        If the mouse then leaps into the ocean and breathes for decades through a blowhole off the California coast, then it is a whale and has been one all along. The Jews don’t have to define themselves as a national community. They have sufficient attributes of one and have had them for centuries. That most American Jews repudiate most of these attributes and swap them for American ones is sort of like a whale insisting that it’s a mouse.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 10, 2018, 3:11 pm

        “If the mouse then leaps into the ocean and breathes for decades through a blowhole off the California coast, then it is a whale”

        Developing a blow-hole is quite a trick, but when does it get any bigger than a mouse, or stop shrinking?

        “That most American Jews repudiate most of these attributes and swap them for American ones is sort of like a whale insisting that it’s a mouse.”

        But you will show us what being part of a great Jewish nation entails! If we don’t give Zionism money, you will tax Jews for it, right?. And if not enough Jews go to Israel, you will order us to go there?. If we don’t bring up our kids as Zionists, you will kidnap them and brainwash them?
        Got any plan to keep those kids married in to the Jewish nation?

        You can take your Jewish nation and shove it. It amounts to nothing. The first thing a “nation” needs (especially if it wants to put through a genocidal colonial project and wars) is control over the people in the “nation”.
        And that you ain’t got, “Naftush”. Gonna send the sicarii after us? Or maybe ICE?

      • Keith
        Keith
        June 10, 2018, 7:19 pm

        NAFTUSH- ” That most American Jews repudiate most of these attributes and swap them for American ones is sort of like a whale insisting that it’s a mouse.”

        Got a list of these “Jewish” attributes? And what would you call a Gentile who established a list of “Jewish” attributes?

        Of course, you are probably referring to the repudiation of tribalism and the adoption of universal concepts of justice. Another quote from Jacob Neusner, a Zionist you might enjoy reading and which I highly recommend.

        “In so far as this Jewish liberalism was nonsectarian and hostile to the things that concern Jews as Jews – as in those Jewish welfare federations which articulately state their purpose as humanitarian to the exclusion of Judaism – Zionism has rejected that liberalism. It has done so because of its critical view of the Emancipation. Unlike the Jewish liberals, Zionism saw the Emancipation as a problem, not a solution. It was dubious of its promises and aware of its hypocrisies. It saw Emancipation as a threat to Jewry and in slight measure a benefit for Jews. The Jews’ problem was that Emancipation represented dejudaization.” (p199, “Stranger at Home: “The Holocaust,” Zionism, and American Judaism,” Jacob Neusner)

        Please note that what Neusner is saying is that the Emancipation threatened the people apart, sectarian nature of Classical Judaism. Zionism is intended to return to the people apart mode (sectarian) of Classical Judaism through a reworking of the classical myths into a nationalistic support for Israel with all that entails.

      • eljay
        eljay
        June 10, 2018, 8:29 pm

        || Naftush: If the mouse then leaps into the ocean and breathes for decades through a blowhole off the California coast, then it is a whale and has been one all along. … ||

        So…what you’re saying is that “the Jews” are:
        – a delusional mouse who now believes he is a whale and somehow lives in the ocean; or
        – a delusional whale who used to believe he was a mouse and somehow lived on land.

        Interesting.

        || … That most American Jews repudiate most of these attributes and swap them for American ones is sort of like a whale insisting that it’s a mouse. … ||

        So…honest-to-goodness Americans who choose to embrace the religion-based identity of Jewish aren’t really Americans – they’re Ancient Israelites who are lying to themselves.

        That’s an interesting assertion. Anti-Semitic, too, for how it presumes that all Jews are one and the same.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        June 11, 2018, 4:16 am

        The Naftoosh didn’t wait two days, and he comes back again with the Stone-Age flat-earth theory.

        The Jews don’t have to define themselves as a national community. They have sufficient attributes of one and have had them for centuries.

        I still have to see ONE (1) single such “sufficient attribute” –and I’m plenty old. It cannot be strictly religious or liturgical (that would mean that Catholics and Buddhists are “Nations”), it must be common, pan-Jewish, ie applicable to Falashas and German Jews and Ashkenazis and (genuine) Sefardí and Mizrahi and Bukhari and and… And of course it cannot be strictly Zionist, ie posterior to the abusive colonial invasion of Palestine.

        I’m waiting. I’ve been waiting very many years. No answer yet.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 11, 2018, 12:28 pm

        “I’m waiting. I’ve been waiting very many years. No answer yet.”

        Here it is: Mishpucha and mishegos. Which is nice, as far as it goes. Not sure if I’d want to build an empire based on it.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 11, 2018, 3:45 pm

        @ec

        Be careful. the same argument about the mouse and whale can be applied to arabs in the palestinian mandate. the palestinians are considered palestinian because they claimed a national identity apart from arab after israel was created

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 11, 2018, 4:02 pm

        @nft

        I’m unaware that any but a small percentage of american jews repudiate their jewish identities in exchange for american ones. just like dozens of ethnic/cultural groups in the us hold onto and display prominently their distinct identities, so do the jews. it maY be only the far left so-called progressive and elite jews from academia and nyc who give the impression that they don’t identify as jews. Other then that everybody there is an american unless their not.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 11, 2018, 6:24 pm

        “I’m unaware that any but a small percentage of american jews repudiate their jewish identities in exchange for american ones. .” “DaBakr”

        Gee, all the Jews I know have cravenly accepted US citizenship, and an “American identity”. When I reproach them for it, they say: “We didn’t want to, but it’s so much easier to work for Zionism in the US if you’re an American citizen.

        (Oh, BTW, “Dabakr”, I’m assuming you are not including marrying other Jews, eating kosher, being a Temple member, and insisting on a Jewish education for your kids among the attributes of a “Jewish identity”. Cause if you do, that’ll inflate your “small percentage” til it pops. )

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        June 11, 2018, 7:34 pm

        “the palestinians are considered palestinian because they claimed a national identity apart from arab after israel was created”

        That has no more effect on their rights than the alleged “nationhood” of Jews has on theirs.

      • annie
        annie
        June 11, 2018, 10:46 pm

        palestinians do not identify “apart” from being arabs, not that i know of. they are part of the arab people and identify as such.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        June 11, 2018, 7:56 pm

        Abubakr getting psychedelic again:

        … just like dozens of ethnic/cultural groups in the us hold onto and display prominently their distinct identities, so do the jews.

        Begging the question in a post 2-above or so:

        I still have to see ONE (1) single such “sufficient attribute” –and I’m plenty old. It cannot be strictly religious or liturgical (that would mean that Catholics and Buddhists are “Nations”), it must be common, pan-Jewish, ie applicable to Falashas and German Jews and Ashkenazis and (genuine) Sefardí and Mizrahi and Bukhari and and… And of course it cannot be strictly Zionist, ie posterior to the abusive colonial invasion of Palestine.

        So we are still waiting for even one single piece of evidence that there is any “Jewish distinct identity” other than strictly religious.

        Still waiting.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 12, 2018, 1:36 pm

        “If the mouse then leaps into the ocean and…”

        …there’s a dorsal fin cutting through the waves and then snap, gulp, and that’s that.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 14, 2018, 10:12 pm

        @ec

        So we are still waiting for even one single piece of evidence that there is any “Jewish distinct identity” other than strictly religious.

        Still waiting.

        Exhibit#1: the existence of mondoweiss and the obsession of its commentary section.

    • dgfincham
      dgfincham
      June 9, 2018, 1:18 pm

      “Occupied” in this context refers to territory, outside the borders of a State, which is under military control by the armed forces of that State. East Jerusalem is under military occupation by Israel: West Jerusalem is not. That does not mean that West Jerusalem is part of Israel. On May 14, 1948 Israel declared the borders of its territory to be those specified in the UN partition plan. All of Jerusalem is outside those borders, as are Acre, Ashkelon, Jaffa, Nazareth, Ramle, Beersheba, and Lydda. The 1949 Armistice agreements make it clear that the Armistice line is not a political or territorial boundary. The permanent border between Israel and Palestine can only be determined by agreement between the two States. West Jerusalem is only de facto part of Israel until there is a peace agreement.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 9, 2018, 3:58 pm

        “All of Jerusalem is outside those borders, as are Acre, Ashkelon, Jaffa, Nazareth, Ramle, Beersheba, and Lydda.”

        “Beersheba”? Who knew?

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        June 9, 2018, 8:49 pm

        @Mooser

        Legend has it that one guy knew that. Sadly he died in an “accident” during a soccer practice at the Beersheva train station.

      • Naftush
        Naftush
        June 10, 2018, 7:13 am

        You speak of May 14. How about May 15? Foreign expeditionary forces sweeping in to obliterate the one-day-old country render yesterday’s reality caduc.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 10, 2018, 3:02 pm

        “You speak of May 14. How about May 15? Foreign expeditionary forces sweeping in to obliterate the one-day-old country render yesterday’s reality caduc.”

        But “Naftush”, you just said that kind of thing is just great! Banzai!:

        “The author labored to prove that Israel attacked without being under existential threat. What a waste of effort, what a major-league fallacy this is. States do not and need not wait for existential peril before using armed force. See under “Pearl Harbor,” for an example.” “Naftush”

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 11, 2018, 4:06 pm

        @dgf

        Curious as to what you believe the status of eastern sector of jerusalem was before 1967? and from who is it occupied? Is the green line an international border or a truce demarcation? not that insignificant questions like these matter in international law….

  5. Keith
    Keith
    June 8, 2018, 5:34 pm

    YOSSI KLEIN HALEVI- “In recent years, there have been renewed attempts, especially on the fringes of the Diaspora left, to create a Jewish identity severed from Israel.”

    Not at the New York Times! Those folks are steadfast and loyal to Israel.

    Theologian Jacob Neusner also contends that support for Israel is the basis for a Zionist restructured Judaism. “Just as the Judaic tradition had formerly told Jews what it meant to be Jewish – had supplied them with a considerable definition of their identity – so does Zionism in the modern age. Jews who lost hold of the mythic structures of the past were given a grasp on a new myth, one composed of the restructured remnants of the old one.” (p176, “Stranger at Home: “The Holocaust,” Zionism, and American Judaism,” Jacob Neusner)

    Neusner’s description of a reinvigorated, Zionized Judaism is entirely consistent with Israel Shahak’s contention that Zionism was a retreat to Classical (medieval) Judaism in secular form. In short, Zionism has provided a new basis for Jewish tribalism in a multicultural world. Jewish “peoplehood” used to be understood as a religion based solidarity. Now, it is based upon Zionist solidarity. Both Classical Judaism and Zionism see Jews as a people apart. Israel represents the physical separation of Jews from non-Jews, the Diaspora entails a psychological separation from non-Jews who are seen as intrinsically anti-Semitic. Full assimilation represents dejudaization, the reduction of Judaism to the status of just another religion rather than the basis of birthright solidarity and kinship. The perception of a shared common fate looms large along with an exaggerated sense of ongoing victimhood not supported by empirical reality.

    • Naftush
      Naftush
      June 10, 2018, 7:18 am

      Applying the term “tribalism” to Zionism is a bi-level failure and a shallow innuendo — insinuating that Israel is less than a nation. In Israel, a person or group that’s accused of tribalism is charged with subordinating the national cause to narrower interests. Where the idea of Jewishness as tribalism does strike a positive chord in the U.S., as in congratulating a convert by saying “Welcome to the tribe!”

      • annie
        annie
        June 10, 2018, 11:21 am

        “Zionism has provided a new basis for Jewish tribalism in a multicultural world”

        “Applying the term “tribalism” to Zionism is a bi-level failure”

        here’s the passage from Neusner with more context (although oddly it is upside down) https://books.google.com/books?id=y2-vCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA176&lpg=PA176&dq=Jews+who+lost+hold+of+the+mythic+structures+of+the+past+were+given+a+grasp+on+a+new+myth&source=bl&ots=EdnjxQdVKu&sig=smMrPE58N8w1JOYgHw6TdZpVLto&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXgbCErsnbAhWDL3wKHRYjC5YQ6AEIMTAC#v=onepage&q=Jews%20who%20lost%20hold%20of%20the%20mythic%20structures%20of%20the%20past%20were%20given%20a%20grasp%20on%20a%20new%20myth&f=false

        naftush, what word would you use?

        Just as the Judaic tradition had formerly told Jews what it meant to be Jewish – had supplied them with a considerable definition of their identity – so does Zionism in the modern age. who lost hold of the mythic structures of the past were given a grasp on a new myth, one composed of the restructured remnants of the old one.

        do you think without this “new myth” israel would be “less than a nation”? do you think people need a story to feel more whole?

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        June 10, 2018, 11:34 am

        Naftoosh,

        You speak Zionese, not general-human. The term “tribalism” is applied to all who feel a loyalty to the tribe, as different from just humanity. It perfectly describes a number of non-religious people who call themselves “Jewish” and consider anyone with similar background (but no common culture) based on some biologic “belonging”. It also applies to non-Zionists who consider themselves to be of the same tribe as Zionists.

        Very many people use the word “tribalism” also for loyalty to/solidarity with a cultural or ethnic unit (which “Jews” are not and could never proved to be anyway) or to a nation (which “Jews” are not anyway), independently from ethics or international legality. The universalist attitude tends to be “if my brother is wrong on principles that apply to all, to hell with my brother”.

        You are so far gone in isolating yourself from general humanity, in your Z-bubble, that you can write:

        Where the idea of Jewishness as tribalism does strike a positive chord in the U.S…

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 10, 2018, 1:49 pm

        “Welcome to the tribe!”

        Naftush, you mean, tribeS’. In the plural. Ten at least, to begin with.

        “subordinating the national cause to narrower interests”

        You mean somebody who isn’t willing to rip off and manipulate the international cause of world Jewry to the ‘narrower interests” of Zionism?

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        June 10, 2018, 5:13 pm

        Annie, Israelis do not have an identity outside Zionism. This is one of the reasons they are so vicious about the Nakba. The Nakba ridicules a core pillar of Israeli identity. The just war that is over.
        Israeli identity is slowly falling apart in the face of reality and Israel has no answers

      • Keith
        Keith
        June 10, 2018, 6:35 pm

        NAFTUSH- “Where the idea of Jewishness as tribalism does strike a positive chord in the U.S…..”

        There is a slightly different dynamic at play within American Jewry versus Israeli Jewry, however, the strong focus on internal “Jewish” solidarity is consistent with a tribal orientation, particularly in Israel which exhibits a form of apartheid. In the US, Zionist Jews separate themselves from non-Jews psychologically even as they physically intermingle. Another quote followed by a few comments.

        “Indeed, outside of that society Jewish consciousness becomes most intense. Among Jews one is a human being, with peculiarities and virtues of one’s own. Among gentiles he is a Jew, with traits common to the group he rejects. That is probably why Jews still live mostly in Jewish neighborhoods and associate, outside of economic life, mostly with other Jews, whether or not these associations exhibit traits supposed to be Jewish. And when the crisis comes, as it frequently does, then no one doubts that he or she shares a common cause, a common fate, with other Jews. Then it is hardest to isolate oneself from Jews, because only among Jewry are these intense concerns shared.” (p195, “Stranger at Home: “The Holocaust,” Zionism, and American Judaism,” Jacob Neusner)

        Please note the projection of Neusner. He attributes to all non-Jews the intrinsic trait of viewing Jews as stereotypes. He also implies that anti-Semitism inevitably produces a “crisis” for Jews who share a common fate with other Jews. Intrinsic to Zionism is that one is born a Jew and cannot escape one’s fate due to eternal and irrational Gentile anti-Semitism. Intrinsic to Zionism is the cultivated sense of felt victimhood, honest analysis of empirical reality avoided. Gilded victimhood. If Herzl was the father of Zionism, then Hitler was the mid-wife who helped birth the Jewish state. Without the Nazi Holocaust, it is unlikely that Israel as a Jewish state would have come into being, something the pre-war Zionists were very aware of. No? A final quote.

        “When they come to us with two plans–the rescue of the masses of Jews in Europe or the redemption of the land–I vote, without a second thought, for the redemption of the land. The more said about the slaughter of our people, the greater the minimization of our efforts to strengthen and promote the Hebraisation of the land.” (quoting Zionist official Yitzhak Gruenbaum, p51, “The Hidden History of Zionism,” Ralph Schoenman)

      • eljay
        eljay
        June 10, 2018, 8:20 pm

        || Naftush: Applying the term “tribalism” to Zionism is a bi-level failure and a shallow innuendo — insinuating that Israel is less than a nation. In Israel, a person or group that’s accused of tribalism is charged with subordinating the national cause to narrower interests. Where the idea of Jewishness as tribalism does strike a positive chord in the U.S., as in congratulating a convert by saying “Welcome to the tribe!” ||

        Correct: Jewish is a religion-based identity and Israel as a “Jewish State” is a religion-supremacist construct.

      • eljay
        eljay
        June 10, 2018, 8:50 pm

        || Naftush: … In Israel, a person or group that’s accused of tribalism is charged with subordinating the national cause to narrower interests. … ||

        It’s a fucked-up state in which a person can be charged with subordinating the “national cause” of religion-based supremacism to the “narrower interests” of justice, equality and human rights.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 11, 2018, 4:20 pm

        @an

        It’s not really a “new myth”. Of course groups need ‘stories’. Oral history in groups that had no developed written word go back 1000s of years and nobody argues wth them. Most ethnic groups have origin stories. and groups that consider their nation to be miraculously(or otherwise) reborn would naturally have a story connecting the modern to the ancient. Sometimes the defeat of a greater nation figures into the myth while destruction of smaller groups might not. difficult to discuss origin stories and the so-called morality of any given group in the context of the present.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        June 11, 2018, 7:46 pm

        Most ethnic groups have origin stories

        Correct, they do.
        Jews are not an ethnic group, though.

        A lot of reactionary and fascist political groupings have origin myths, too. Without them, it’s nearly impossible to gather and mobilize large, hysterical murderous crowds. Like the Aryan and the Zionist origin myths.

        Thank you, De Baker.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 12, 2018, 12:27 pm

        “Most ethnic groups have origin stories”

        And those poor ethnic groups which can’t afford
        “origin stories” must make do with their actual history.

    • Maghlawatan
      Maghlawatan
      June 10, 2018, 10:57 pm

      “Just as the Judaic tradition had formerly told Jews what it meant to be Jewish – had supplied them with a considerable definition of their identity – so does Zionism in the modern age. Jews who lost hold of the mythic structures of the past were given a grasp on a new myth, one composed of the restructured remnants of the old one.”

      http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/apr/05/tony-judt-right-questions/ “Judt’s Zionist teachers…would have said: “Even if the gentiles like you and treat you as one of their own, you will not like yourself. Indeed you will like yourself even less for just that reason.” As a result, you turn to a paranoid kind of Jewishness, living vicariously, as it were, with the ghosts of Nazi mass murder and the specters of Arab terror”

      Zionism is fear based.
      Fear is the glue.

      Hillel lived in Babylon at a non paranoid time. He couldn’t have been a Zionist

      https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2011/jewish/Chapter-Two.htm
      Hillel would say: Do not separate yourself from the community. Do not believe in yourself until the day you die. Do not judge your fellow until you have stood in his place. Do not say something that is not readily understood in the belief that it will ultimately be understood [or: Do not say something that ought not to be heard even in the strictest confidence, for ultimately it will be heard]. And do not say “When I free myself of my concerns, I will study,” for perhaps you will never free yourself.

      • jon s
        jon s
        June 11, 2018, 3:52 pm

        “Hillel lived in Babylon…”
        Not too many details about Hillel’s biography are known, but according to the sources we have, he was born in Babylon but became an influential teacher and spiritual leader in the land of Israel:
        http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Hillel_the_Elder

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 11, 2018, 5:04 pm

        “Not too many details about Hillel’s biography are known”

        But almost everybody who clicked the link, and read the entry, came away with a new understanding of why Israel had to shoot the marchers.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        June 12, 2018, 9:14 am

        The historical existence of Hillel deserves at least as much scepticism as that of Jesus.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 12, 2018, 12:35 pm

        “The historical existence of Hillel deserves at least as much scepticism as that of Jesus.”

        They say that students who were forbidden to study Torah hid themselves and went to Hillel in a handbasket.

  6. Stephen Shenfield
    Stephen Shenfield
    June 8, 2018, 6:09 pm

    I’m in the middle of Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro’s expose of Zionism from the point of view of traditional Judaism. He considers Zionism to be an anti-Judaic religion that disguises itself as Judaism. So for him it’s Zionists who are not Jewish. In fact, he regards Christians and Moslems as closer to Judaism than Zionists are, because at least Christians and Moslems worship God while Zionists are idolators (they worship their state).

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      June 8, 2018, 8:42 pm

      ” So for him it’s Zionists who are not Jewish.”

      That’s absurd. All he has to do is ask them. Why would they lie?

    • Marnie
      Marnie
      June 9, 2018, 2:50 am

      Stephen Shenfield – What’s the name of this book please?

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        June 9, 2018, 3:59 pm

        Yes, what is the name of the book?

    • Maghlawatan
      Maghlawatan
      June 12, 2018, 1:15 pm

      They fetishise the land

  7. eljay
    eljay
    June 8, 2018, 6:31 pm

    Mr. Halevi asserts that Judaism cannot exist without Zionism when, in truth, Zionism cannot exist without Judaism.

    And – in typical Zionist fashion – he anti-Semitically conflates Zionism and Israel with all Jews and all Jews with Zionism and Israel.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      June 9, 2018, 4:03 pm

      Let’s see, try not painting a star of David on those free F-16s and F-35? What would they paint on as a replacement–Menorah is no good, so what? A jar of gefilte fish?

  8. Steve Grover
    Steve Grover
    June 8, 2018, 7:09 pm

    “So if you don’t accept the idea of a Jewish state, you’re not a Jew. And STFU.”

    Phil, maybe you and JVP should take his advice. Especially since Kenneth Marcus has been confirmed as Under Secretary of Education for Civil Rights by the Senate. JVP is finished and you are probably too.

    • annie
      annie
      June 8, 2018, 7:16 pm

      how are they finished steve, can you elaborate. do you think he’s going to shut the org down, members will have to meet undercover in basements or what?

      • Steve Grover
        Steve Grover
        June 8, 2018, 7:22 pm

        Colleges won’t tolerate Israel hating bullshit on Campuses nearly as much and people will simply be more repulsed by Israel hating BS than before. I don’t care where they meet.

      • annie
        annie
        June 8, 2018, 7:32 pm

        oh, you think marcus is going to shut down free speech on american campuses. can’t wait til that hits the supreme court /s

      • Steve Grover
        Steve Grover
        June 8, 2018, 7:38 pm

        Annie, you know JVP won’t have pot to pee in to fight in the courts. No one will want to be seen forking cash over to them. I’m gonna sit back and enjoy watching this happen. This might be more fun than watching Jason Heyward’s walk off grand slam the other night in the bottom of the 9th with 2 outs against the Phillies.

      • annie
        annie
        June 8, 2018, 8:09 pm

        JVP won’t have pot to pee in to fight in the courts.

        oh, the zionist jews are going to take the non zionist jews to court are they? and i suppose that would be after they have the full weight of the executive branch and congress behind them? and the little people will sit back and eat pop corn as our first amendment rights get flushed down the toilet while jews sling arrows about whether anti zionism equals anti semitism? or criticizing israel equals anti semitism? is that how this is going to play out? fun!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 8, 2018, 8:02 pm

        “Colleges won’t tolerate Israel hating bullshit on Campuses nearly as much and people will simply be more repulsed by Israel hating BS than before.”

        That’s right “Steve”, the non-Jews will save Israel from the Jews! It’s a philo-semitic world, after all.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        June 8, 2018, 11:35 pm

        Why, Grober, with defenders like you to give away the game, Zionism doesn’t need any enemy spies or investigative muckrakers. I just had a notion about asking questions on the origin of JVP financing.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        June 9, 2018, 10:57 am
      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        June 9, 2018, 12:33 pm

        Thank you, Citizen.
        It looks clean enough but as it was prepared by a Zionist attack organization I’ll keep asking.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      June 8, 2018, 7:52 pm

      “Phil, maybe you and JVP should take his advice.”

      Yeah, after all, it doesn’t matter how little Jewish people support Zionism.

    • philweiss
      philweiss
      June 9, 2018, 4:23 pm

      i removed the STFU line. Too coarse

    • annie
      annie
      June 9, 2018, 10:30 pm

      it doesn’t matter how little Jewish people support Zionism.

      yeah, it’s those big jewish people we have to worry about.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 10, 2018, 6:35 pm

        “yeah, it’s those big jewish people we have to worry about.”

        It’s like a huge horse stepping on a poor confused frightened kitty-cat.

  9. annie
    annie
    June 8, 2018, 7:26 pm

    these are voices that should have no place in our communal conversation.

    thank goodness he’s not king of the jews and doesn’t get to set the rules! another voice in the great, or not so great, jewish debate over collective obligations of individuals in the jewish community.

    more cat herders, yeehaw!

    • Marnie
      Marnie
      June 9, 2018, 2:54 am

      This is hysterical! Not as hysterical as Steve Grover’s ‘israel hating bullshit’ comments though!

    • JLewisDickerson
      JLewisDickerson
      June 14, 2018, 10:04 pm

      Dang it, I would’ve made a great cat herder. I missed my callin’, y’all!

  10. Mooser
    Mooser
    June 8, 2018, 7:57 pm

    I think any Jew who does not support Zionism should no longer receive the monthly checks and yearly bonus. Nope, not a penny.

    • annie
      annie
      June 8, 2018, 8:12 pm

      couldn’t agree more mooser! and no comment on my herding jews cats video? i’m insulted now!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 8, 2018, 8:24 pm

        “and no comment on my herding jews cats video”

        Sorry, “Annie”I can’t see it. Since I’ve been excommunicated the checks have stopped. Had to go back to dial-up.

      • annie
        annie
        June 9, 2018, 2:15 pm

        oh no for real? you are really missing something mooser, it’s delicious! ;)

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        June 9, 2018, 2:13 am

        One my favourites. I love the catboy using a sticky roll to clean the hair off.

      • inbound39
        inbound39
        June 9, 2018, 2:54 am

        This article should get your blood running Annie. Found it at the Guardian which is usually Pro Zionist and I know you guys in the US don’t get a lot of info. It is the most I have ever seen written in a paper about this Zionist fellow………………https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/08/sheldon-adelson-trump-middle-east-policy

      • annie
        annie
        June 9, 2018, 2:13 pm

        thank you inbound! appreciated. couple things i always thought but hadn’t seeing reported as such:

        The imprint of the 84-year-old’s political passions is seen in an array of Donald Trump’s more controversial decisions, including violating the Iran nuclear deal, moving the American embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, and appointing the ultra-hawkish John Bolton as national security adviser.

        the embassy check, the iran deal check, but so far have not encountered the suggestion he hand picked and bought himself a National Security Advisor. and this:

        The New York Times reported that Adelson is a member of a “shadow National Security Council” advising Bolton.

        he bought himself a place on the council. now, given back cube/ cambridge analytica etc shenanigans, what do you think they have on trump, ivanka, kershner or whomever? or is trump doing this merely so adelson can lavish more millions on the gop or his run in 2020?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        June 9, 2018, 11:14 am

        You’ve been excommunicated again, Mooser?
        If they let you back in this time, promise me you’ll stay out of trouble.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 9, 2018, 3:48 pm

        “If they let you back in this time, promise me you’ll stay out of trouble.”

        I won’t be abusing and over-stressing cats, throwing them into water, I can guarantee you that.

      • annie
        annie
        June 9, 2018, 4:15 pm

        give it up mooser, you’re unherdable!

      • inbound39
        inbound39
        June 9, 2018, 4:11 pm

        Seems to me Adelson is violating electoral Law and acting as a Foreign Agent. To my knowledge Adelson is not an elected official nor in any position to legally dictate policy.

  11. oldgeezer
    oldgeezer
    June 8, 2018, 10:04 pm

    “Modern movements that created forms of Judaism severed from the love of the land and dream of return all ended in failure.”

    Failure? How is that failure measured?

    Zionism may have a strong state but given it must excommunicate a large number of people for being Jewish but non zionist it would seem zionism is the failure. It brooks no difference whereas the religion can accomodate the reality that many variations occur under the big tent.

    He may be a literary hero (again by what measure?) but an intellectual he is certainly not.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      June 9, 2018, 1:55 pm

      “Modern movements that created forms of Judaism severed from the love of the land and dream of return all ended in failure.”

      Yeah, such ignominious failure that nobody remembers the actual names of those “created forms of Judaism severed from the love of the land and dream of return” or what happened to them.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        June 9, 2018, 4:14 pm

        I majored in world and American literature–anybody who knows the classics of literature would think Halevi as a literary hero is a joke.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      June 9, 2018, 7:50 pm

      If Judaism implies Israel then Judaism is an immoral religion and should be abandoned.

  12. RoHa
    RoHa
    June 9, 2018, 2:14 am

    What makes this Halevi person a “literary hero”?

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      June 9, 2018, 11:59 am

      Wikipedia describes him as a non-fiction writer, journalist. That’s not how one characterizes anyone gaining a reputation for being a writer of literature, which means the highest form of writing.

      • Brewer
        Brewer
        June 9, 2018, 7:06 pm

        No-one can write in support of Zionism without creating fiction.

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      June 9, 2018, 1:59 pm

      Philip Weiss, inventor of the term, may want to explain.

      All searches only show a use of the term to designate fictional or legendary characters, with Odysseus or Achilles as a prototype.

      • annie
        annie
        June 9, 2018, 2:20 pm

        i think the mystery can be solved w/his “Cokie Jodi Bari” retort, the way yossi’s pranced around and touted as the 2nd coming:

        Liberals adore him. He did an event with David Gregory, another with Abigail Pogrebin and a Muslim imam sponsored by the Jewish Federations. Cokie Roberts gave him a fulsome blurb (“Letters to My Palestinian Neighbor offers a model… for Middle East peacemaking”). And Halevi has been hailed as a guide by New York Times editors Jodi Rudoren and Bari Weiss at various Jewish gatherings.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        June 9, 2018, 2:59 pm

        Annie,

        Thanks for the hint. That was suspected; it still seems to be a new (ie unpublished or at least marginal) and unaware use for the expression “literary hero”.

      • annie
        annie
        June 9, 2018, 3:56 pm

        unaware use for the expression “literary hero”.

        maybe so, i read it as somewhat snarkish. whether anyone has used that term in snarkville before, not so sure. one could use it against that old guy who died, wrote the book night, excuse my laziness. here’s Joseph Campbell’s description of a hero narrative:

        A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.[4]

        so, it appears people who have been elevated as worthy spokespeople for the masses (nyt and other msm journos etc) think halevi has the “power to bestow boons on his fellow man”. so they hoist him up and wave him around. whereas, phil is taking him down a notch or two… the choice of “hero” in the headline, literary or otherwise, prior to revealing uncomfortable truths, is to further one’s point. just like exposing shavit’s flaws, a fallen hero. plus, look at the choice of feature photo.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        June 9, 2018, 4:17 pm

        I majored in world and American literature–anybody who knows the classics of literature would think that characterizing Halevi as a literary hero or a literary master writer is a joke.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        June 9, 2018, 6:43 pm

        Annie,

        You got a point.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        June 9, 2018, 7:53 pm

        Thank you, Annie. I had no idea what that retort meant.

    • philweiss
      philweiss
      June 9, 2018, 4:24 pm

      Cokie Jodi Bari

  13. Citizen
    Citizen
    June 9, 2018, 11:59 am

    Figures

  14. Atlantaiconoclast
    Atlantaiconoclast
    June 9, 2018, 1:08 pm

    The best way to deal with supremacists like this guy is to ask why Jewish nationalism is ok, but White nationalism is not. But for some reason, no one has the guts to say it in public.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      June 9, 2018, 3:40 pm

      “The best way to deal with supremacists like this guy is to ask why Jewish nationalism is ok, but White nationalism is not.”

      And where does Halevi say he objects to “White nationalism”? And why wouldn’t “White nationalism” include Jewish nationalism? I mean, anti-Semitism isn’t part of “White nationalism” is it? Cause that’s unconstitutional! And un-American!

      BTW, will you please specify the PMS numbers included in the nationalism of “White”? Use the Pantone Matching System app. to determine the numbers of acceptable “White” shades.
      Just want to know where I stand, you see.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        June 9, 2018, 4:45 pm

        “ Ultimately, both Zionism and white nationalism are forms of nationalism but are not the same: ham and gefilte fish are both foods, but they too are not the same – and only one can be kosher.” 
No, Zionism Does Not Equal White Nationalism—Or Apartheid http://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/?p=1248968 via @NYJewishWeek

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        June 9, 2018, 4:49 pm

        Why wouldn’t Jewish nationalism include White nationalism?

        “ Ultimately, both Zionism and white nationalism are forms of nationalism but are not the same: ham and gefilte fish are both foods, but they too are not the same – and only one can be kosher.” 
No, Zionism Does Not Equal White Nationalism—Or Apartheid http://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/?p=1248968 via @NYJewishWeek

      • annie
        annie
        June 9, 2018, 5:06 pm

        Ultimately, both Zionism and white nationalism are forms of nationalism

        that statement is not true because it implies they are different forms of nationalism when they are, in fact, the same form of nationalism, that being ethnic nationalism.

        a different, form of nationalism, would be civic nationalism.

        however, Zionism and white nationalism, both being ethnic nationalists, are different in their “ethnicity”.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 9, 2018, 6:29 pm

        Gee, “Atlantaiconoclast” shouldn’t “White nationalists” support Zionism in every way?

        I mean, when anybody says “ethno-nationalism doesn’t work” you could point at Israel and say that it does. And say “White nationalism will work at least as well as Zionism!”

        And besides, what can I do, I can’t be a “White nationalist”, I’m Jewish. So what other nationalism can I embrace?

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        June 9, 2018, 6:40 pm

        Annie

        10+

      • annie
        annie
        June 9, 2018, 10:54 pm

        thanks echi

      • Atlantaiconoclast
        Atlantaiconoclast
        June 10, 2018, 8:31 pm

        Aren’t there various shades among world Jewry? Black, White, Tan, etc? There is in fact much greater diversity of shades among Jews than among Whites, making White nationalism more legit per your logic Mooser.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 11, 2018, 11:24 am

        “There is in fact much greater diversity of shades among Jews than among Whites, making White nationalism more legit per your logic Mooser.”

        My “logic”? I was a printer. I go strictly by the PMS numbers linked above.

        I’ll say one thing “Atlantaiconoclast”: I wouldn’t doubt you’ve got a real high PMS number.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 11, 2018, 11:41 am

        “Aren’t there various shades among world Jewry? Black, White, Tan, etc?”

        Well what do you know, you raised the ante on Duke Ellington!

    • JLewisDickerson
      JLewisDickerson
      June 10, 2018, 4:48 am

      RE: “The best way to deal with supremacists like this guy is to ask why Jewish nationalism is ok, but White nationalism is not. But for some reason, no one has the guts to say it in public.” ~ Atlantaiconoclast

      SEE: Neo-Nazi Richard Spencer says he turns to Israel “for guidance”
      By Ali Abunimah | electronicintifada.net | 20 October 2017

      [EXCERPTS] American neo-Nazi demagogue Richard Spencer has again praised Israel as a model for the Aryan homeland he wants to create in the United States.

      “The most important and perhaps most revolutionary ethno-state, and it’s one that I turn to for guidance, even though I might not always agree with its foreign policy decisions … is the Jewish state of Israel,” Spencer told an audience at the University of Florida in Gainesville on Thursday.

      “The Jewish state of Israel is not just another country in the Middle East,” Spencer added. “It is a country for Jews and for Jews around the world.”

      Spencer said he acknowledged the “moral legitimacy” of other “ethno-states,” naming Russia, Poland and Hungary as supposed examples.

      Spencer and his backers faced big protests including cries of “Go home Nazis!” and “Nazi scum!” . . .

      . . . Spencer has previously referred to his desire for a European enclave in North America as “white Zionism.”

      Last December, Texas A&M campus rabbi Matt Rosenberg publicly challenged Spencer over the white supremacist’s message of “radical exclusion.”

      “My tradition teaches a message of radical inclusion, as embodied by Torah,” Rosenberg said.

      In an exchange caught on video and widely circulated online, Spencer responded, “Do you really want radical inclusion into the state of Israel?” . . .

      SOURCE – https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/neo-nazi-richard-spencer-says-he-turns-israel-guidance

      • Atlantaiconoclast
        Atlantaiconoclast
        June 10, 2018, 8:32 pm

        Richard Spencer does not speak for all or most members of the Alt Right.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 11, 2018, 11:27 am

        “Richard Spencer does not speak for all or most members of the Alt Right.”

        Of course not! Richard Spencer is an idiot who will never replace your precious alt-Right spokesman Milo Yiannopoulos!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 11, 2018, 1:32 pm

        “Atlanta”, if Richard Spenser isn’t your kind of alt-Right icon, may I suggest Seth Grossman as your alt-Right idol? He should be perfect.

  15. iResistDe4iAm
    iResistDe4iAm
    June 10, 2018, 12:07 am

    “If by Zionism one means the Jewish attachment to the land of Israel and the dream of renewing Jewish sovereignty in our place of origin, then there is no Judaism without Zionism. Judaism isn’t only a set of rituals and rules but a vision linked to a place” ~ Yossi Klein Halevi

    “renewing Jewish sovereignty in our place of origin”
    “Judaism … [is] a vision linked to a place”
    “there is no Judaism without Zionism”

    Zionists continue to hold an entire religion hostage to their supremacist ideology, for the purposes of their ongoing territorial conquests.

    Here’s another Zionist justifying the use of Jewish civilians in Jewish settlements as Israel’s “defense bulwark” (aka: human shields) against “the Islamist armies” of no less than five nations.

    “You ask Israel to cease building settlements on the West Bank, which are intended not only to house Israelis, but to provide a defense bulwark when the Islamist armies of the surrounding states, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria – Assad or his opponents – and Iraq, again try militarily to crush Israel” ~ Ed Koch, 2013
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163827

  16. RoHa
    RoHa
    June 10, 2018, 3:14 am

    Halevi: Thugee requires strangling people. If you are a Thug, you should go out and strangle people.

    RoHa: Strangling people is wrong. If Thugee requires strangling people, you should not be a Thug.

  17. JLewisDickerson
    JLewisDickerson
    June 10, 2018, 4:08 am

    RE: “In his [i.e., Yossi Klein Halevi’s] book he writes that Judaism cannot now be separated from Zionism.” ~ Weiss

    MY SNARKCASM: So now they’re conjoined twins? How sad.
    How very, very sad!

    • JLewisDickerson
      JLewisDickerson
      June 10, 2018, 4:26 pm

      P.S. Likewise, John Hagee and his ilk likewise insist that Christianity and Zionism cannot be separated!

      This Is Why Evangelical Christians Love Israel (VICE on HBO, Full Segment)

  18. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    June 10, 2018, 8:06 am

    “Judaism isn’t only a set of rituals and rules but a vision linked to a place” ~ Yossi Klein Halevi”

    Like wow man it`s all so chill like so cool you know like Narnia you know like Oz.Pass the spliff man this shit is the real thing.

    • wondering jew
      wondering jew
      June 11, 2018, 3:07 pm

      There are many aspects to Judaism, but an honest appraisal of the daily liturgy makes clear that Jerusalem is a major focus. Obviously there were many years and centuries where these references were detached from reality. But in our world of air travel and photography the distance to Jerusalem is no longer the same as during those centuries.

      American Jews for the most part do not consider their Judaism that near the core of their thoughts and world views. Certainly the fact that Jerusalem is mentioned thrice daily in the major prayer and again thrice after every meal, means very little when these prayers are antiquated and largely irrelevant.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 11, 2018, 4:47 pm

        “American Jews for the most part do not consider their Judaism that near the core of their thoughts and world views.”

        Because if they did “consider their Judaism that near the core of their thoughts and world views” they would be expansionist, genocidal right-wing Zionists?

        Shorter “Yonah”: ‘Zionism cannot fail, but American Jews are failing Zionism.’

  19. Hussein Hammami
    Hussein Hammami
    June 11, 2018, 5:57 am

    Equating Zionism with Judaism constitutes reckless incitement to anti-semitism.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      June 11, 2018, 11:28 am

      “Equating Zionism with Judaism constitutes reckless incitement to anti-semitism.”

      That’s a problem the Zionists really should have anticipated. What do you think Zionists can do about it?

  20. inbound39
    inbound39
    June 11, 2018, 7:45 am

    Halevi needs to learn you cannot build a state on constantly shifting sand. It will always sink and topple.

  21. Boomer
    Boomer
    June 11, 2018, 1:34 pm

    Where do these settlers fit in? To me they seem to be Jewish, yet they don’t seem to be heading for Zion:
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/06/11/insular-hasidic-jews-struggle-to-preserve-customs-as-legal-and-social-pressures-build.html

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      June 11, 2018, 3:33 pm

      “Where do these settlers fit in?”

      The Fox News narrative.

    • annie
      annie
      June 21, 2018, 8:57 pm

      it doesn’t sound like fitting in is part of their agenda.

      The big family units help explain why some communities they inhabit become among the poorest in the country, according to federal statistics on rates of welfare assistance, subsidized housing, food stamps and Medicaid.

      Indeed, the U.S. town with the highest rate of people on food stamps is the all-Hasidic New York village of New Square, north of New York City, where 77 percent of residents rely on the program to eat, according to a new report.

      one thing i find interesting about this article, although it’s long and i may have missed it, there’s no mention that for religious reasons many of the men don’t work, they study religion. so it’s a combination of having so many children and the lack of a well paying job. and their kids will likely be unable to support themselves either because the yeshivas are primarily religious studies. it creates a real burden on the state. to divert funds from public schools for religious education which doesn’t adhere to state standards of educational requirements seems wrong. they have this same problem in israel with the hadistic communities, or so i’ve read.

      a single state senator, Simcha Felder, held up passage of New York’s $168 billion budget until he was promised the state wouldn’t interfere with the educational approach of yeshivas — despite laws requiring all students to receive an education equivalent to that of public schools.

      tax payers should not be funding religious schools that don’t adhere to state or federal standards. that should be law.

  22. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    June 11, 2018, 1:51 pm

    Saying anti Zionist Jews are not Jewish is like Roland Freisler ranting in 19 43 that anti Nazis were not German. Nazism died. Germany did not.
    Zionism will collapse. Judaism won’t. Hillel will still be there…

    • wondering jew
      wondering jew
      June 11, 2018, 2:55 pm

      I haven’t studied Halevi’s words enough times to determine his exact meaning, but I would say that apathy regarding Zionism is not a serious alternative for someone who views their Judaism or Jewishness from the perspective of history rather than the individual. Thus Ilan Pappe is a serious Jew.

      I think an overarching attitude towards jewish continuity lends a context to the issue. Thus Michael Chabon gleefully wishing for the disappearance of Judaism (if it is merely habit, would be his proviso) is a perspective that is historical, but essentially inimical to all that is habit. (Not to extol habits, but habits make the world go round. new ideas make the world interesting, but habits are the basic fuel of this world.)

      if indeed the future requires a reconciliation that seems quite distant, the tension between such a change and the current tense is apt to create abysses between opposing groups.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        June 11, 2018, 5:14 pm

        “I think an overarching attitude towards jewish continuity lends a context to the issue”

        Hey “Yonah”, you want “an overarching attitude towards jewish continuity” that “lends a context to the issue”? Here’s one:

        “Don’t put all your eggs in one basket”

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        June 11, 2018, 6:51 pm

        Yonah, we should try to give up our bad habits.

  23. Nevada Ned
    Nevada Ned
    June 11, 2018, 11:36 pm

    Mr. Halevi thinks that “non-Zionist Jews aren’t really Jews”
    expresses some sort of profound truth.

    When I lived in New York, i had a lot of Jewish friends. They didn’t
    worry about whether or not they were “really Jewish.” They’re
    now married to non-Jews, or are themselves the product of intermarriage.

    The trend towards more intermarriage continues. And more and more,
    pronouncements like that of M. Halevi are regarded as bizarre. No even wrong.

  24. Mooser
    Mooser
    June 12, 2018, 12:40 pm

    “The trend towards more intermarriage continues.”

    Whoa! I mean, think about it! When Israel finally orders the American Jewish state of the Jewish nation to come to Israel and fight for its existence, is Israel fully prepared for how many people will be coming?

  25. DaBakr
    DaBakr
    June 13, 2018, 10:02 pm

    I thought this was a fairly well reasoned piece that even Zionist haters might appreciate. See for yourselves

    Michael Chabon Touched A Nerve — And Shouting Him Down Is Not The Remedy
    June 13, 2018
    Joshua Holo
    Joshua HoloCommunity Contributor
    Dr. Joshua Holo is the Dean of the Jack H. Skirball Campus of Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion in Los Angeles and Associate Professor of Jewish History at HUC-JIR/LA. He served as Director of HUC-JIR’s Louchheim School of Judaic Studies from 2006-2010. Dr. Holo’s publications focus on Medieval Jews of the Mediterranean, particularly in the Christian realm. His book, Byzantine Jewry in the Mediterranean Economy, was published by Cambridge University Press in 2009. He is the creator of HUC-JIR’s College Commons, a digital platform offering live-streamed events and on-demand videos and podcasts of topical and scholarly content for Reform congregations and the general public.

    read more
    The views and opinions expressed in this article are the author’s own and do not necessarily reflect those of the Forward.

    Israeli-American novelist Ayelet Waldman (R) and her spouse American novelist Michael Chabon pose for a picture in Jerusalem on June 18, 2017.
    Getty Images
    Israeli-American novelist Ayelet Waldman (R) and her spouse American novelist Michael Chabon pose for a picture in Jerusalem on June 18, 2017.

    Michael Chabon’s recent graduation speech to the Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion (HUC-JIR) has reinvigorated fiery accusations of Israel- and Jewish self-hatred against Jewish opponents of Israeli administration of the West Bank. Not only Chabon, who vigorously voiced this opposition, but also HUC-JIR, which hosted him, have come under attack.

    These ugly charges impoverish the very Zionist argument they seek to support, because they narrow the range of healthy debate that has always characterized the Zionist enterprise. Worse, they betray a fear of reasoned disagreement. The Zionism of these reductive, hair-trigger accusations suggests a delicate ideology that cannot sustain the competition of ideas. But the Zionism of Israelis and committed American Jews is no such snowflake; it is a robust and vibrant proposition, fully able to absorb, respond, and adapt to reasoned critique.

    The controversy around Israel’s role in the West Bank provokes particularly strident discord within the Jewish community and in its outward-facing politics-hence the name-calling. Precisely because the stakes are so high, both Left and Right should resist the specious charges of Israel — or Jewish self-hatred against their opponents. These allegations forsake the spirit of committed debate among a single people, and in practical terms, they thwart a clear-eyed assessment of a legitimately difficult reality.

    As a matter of principle, the charge of Israel-hatred dulls our Jewish and American traditions’ self-assured embrace of a free marketplace of ideas. Under the sway of such accusations, we shut down the Rabbinic dictum legitimating both sides of a dispute as “words of the living God.” And we ignore James Madison’s preference expressed in The Federalist Papers for “the increased variety of parties comprised within the Union” as a source of political security for all.

    To be sure, the early Rabbis limited their penchant for debate with a proviso. Though “every disagreement with a heavenly purpose endures” in its pursuit of truth, “one that lacks a heavenly purpose does not.” The learned debate of Hillel and Shammai represents “disagreement with a heavenly purpose,” while Korach’s attempted coup against Moses represents one that lacks such purpose.

    The epithets “Israel-hater” and “enemy of the Jews” attempt to relegate Jewish opponents of Israel’s administration of the West Bank to the camp of Korach. They lump loyal critics of Israel with renegades, traitors to the shared Zionist project and, therefore, ineligible to disagree with leadership. But such dismissal conveniently avoids grappling with the fact that left-wingers, or doves, aim for nothing less than Israel’s success as a secure, Jewish, and democratic state.

    Like the Right, the Left argues from a security perspective. They see the West Bank not as a bulwark against violence but as a threat to Israel’s security, demography, and character. Where the Right considers it utterly naïve to disengage from the West Bank, the Left sees a Zionist imperative.

    Moreover, liberal American Jews did not invent disengagement; that honor belongs to Ariel Sharon. His successor, Ehud Olmert, viewed it as inevitable, even though he fully appreciated that it would “.obligate us to rip away many portions of the homeland – in Judea, Samaria, Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.” Former Israeli prime ministers, from both the Left and the Right, pragmatically concluded that parts of the land are not worth the cost of retaining them.

    Sometimes nomenclature muddies our understanding of those areas in relation to Israel. “West Bank,” “Cisjordan,” “Judea and Samaria,” and “Occupied Territories” all reflect authentic facets of reality. If someone wants to argue the West Bank’s identity with Israel, well and good. Likewise, if one recognizes occupation as such, but concludes its necessity for Israel’s security. Those positions fall well within the pale of reasonable debate. They do not, however, justify besmirching those who distinguish between Israel and the West Bank, and who view Israel’s administration of the West Bank as occupation. That position, too, falls within the pale.

    Offended by Michael Chabon’s words? Have at it. Chabon’s words and tone encourage it, and as an institution of higher learning, so does HUC-JIR. The lack of a unified Jewish front regarding Israel’s West Bank policy need not represent a gross fissure in our fundamental and abiding commitment to the State of Israel. But personal attacks on Jewish Zionists as Israel-haters might open one up. In addition, these charges misuse, and thereby undercut the power of, terms like “antisemite,” making it easier for real enemies of the Jews to shrug them off.

    In closing: a concession and a call to reason. In a perfect world, liberals or doves would not need to preface every reasoned criticism with a disclaimer professing love and commitment to Israel as a secure, Jewish, and democratic state. Absent a perfect world, however, the Left would benefit from shoring up its rhetoric with more of those statements, if nothing else because they’re true and some people need to hear them.

    It is also true that enemies of Israel may take cover behind Jewish criticism of Israel, and that fact deserves our attention. It does not deserve our fearful self-recusal from the substantive debate. Nor does it does justify collapsing proper critique and downright hostility into a single undifferentiated phenomenon, especially when the critique comes from proud Jews who care about Israel. So, hawks and conservatives, for their part, need to rein in their own partisans who cheapen this important debate with shrill, inaccurate, and destructive accusations. To be sure, our individual views of “the truth” may jostle and chafe one another. But each position belongs to a whole that is a vital part of a single Jewish people with a shared destiny. It’s time

    • eljay
      eljay
      June 14, 2018, 7:55 am

      || @Daa: I thought this was a fairly well reasoned piece that even Zionist haters might appreciate. See for yourselves

      … These ugly charges impoverish the very Zionist argument they seek to support, because they narrow the range of healthy debate that has always characterized the Zionist enterprise. … ||

      I like the humour so far. Discussions about how to realize and maintain Jewish supremacism in/and a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine are as “healthy” and have as broad a range as discussions about how best to go about kidnapping, confining and raping women.

      || … But the Zionism of Israelis and committed American Jews is no such snowflake; it is a robust and vibrant proposition, fully able to absorb, respond, and adapt to reasoned critique. … ||

      This is truly funny stuff! “Captain Israel”-strong Zionism “adapts to reasoned critique” by:
      – running away and ignoring it;
      – loudly defaming it (with accusations of anti-Semitism and “Jew hatred”);
      – desperately deflecting attention from it (whataboutism); and/or
      – doubling down on its evil.

      Thanks for Da Laughs, Da Baker.  :-)

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 14, 2018, 10:17 pm

        @ej

        Glad you had a laugh. When the majority of the world comes around to laughing with you and not at you give me a ring. In the mean time, enjoy all the great publicity Canada has been garnering in the press. I mean really, who the hell can have any big problems with Canada anyway?

      • eljay
        eljay
        June 15, 2018, 8:59 am

        || @akr: @ej

        Glad you had a laugh. … ||

        Thanks, Baker-man. Keep up your good, comedic work!

        || … When the majority of the world comes around to laughing with you and not at you give me a ring. … ||

        When you finally rid yourself of your Jewish supremacism (Zionism), I’ll shake your hand and buy you a drink.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        June 16, 2018, 10:44 pm

        @elj

        Google: Charlton Hestons most memorable line. (Hint: it’s not from Moses) ;)

      • eljay
        eljay
        June 17, 2018, 8:46 am

        || @Dak: @elj

        Google: Charlton Hestons most memorable line. (Hint: it’s not from Moses) ;) ||

        Google says: “Take your stinking paws off me, you damn dirty ape!”

        Ummm…okay. But my offer stands. I sincerely hope you get to take me up on it.

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